As you would note. I did say truth was truth. Why do you give the credit to vp for speaking the truth and hold him in reverence?.
I would give anyone who speaks something that is true "credit" (your word.) It's simple if they did they did,it's a fact.
Why not just quote the bible since that is the ultimate truth?
One could and I do but not everythig true and usefull is in the Bible in those cases you could quote the person speaking.
Do you think he did anything wrong wd?
I'm assuming you mean VPW here, Yes I do I think I said that a few times(understatement)
If so can you list what he taught that was wrong or the things he did wrong? If half the things that I have read about how he wronged people are true. I think almost if not all of them are true.
Thanks but no thanks I think others here are happy to do that for you. Not my thing I have my own life to worry about if you want to watch everybody else and make lists so be it....
If someone is a liar and a known liar. Why should we believe anything that came out of vp's mouth?
The scriptures say all men are liars, Have you never told a lie? and yet you want us to listen to you here now don't you. Should we not believe anything that comes out of your mouth? Ok......
WD, yes truth is truth but lets give credit where credit is due and it is not from vp.
Some is due some is not. Thats the thing it is not all or nothing.
There are many other places to look for the truth. Look at what he did with the truth.
There are but you can never have to much I'd say, so why throw some away.....
Which means that, because of his character, vpw turned the truth into a lie.
His fruit proves that out.
There were times he was a loving, gentle, caring man.
Other times he was harsh, cold and ruthless.
His fruit varied.
Which is why it'd be foolish to determine what the truth is, based upon his actions one way or the other.
Whatever VPW did or did not do does not change the truth of this and other truths, his morals do not affect truth. You can accept that which is true independent of his actions.
OK, White Dove, I found your 'answer'...and I didn't know it was an answer...'cause it came across as flippant and more akin something you said to make your point...and it didn't include any explanation.
Well sorry that was my final answer, I suppose I thought it was self explanatory. I really don't know what more there is to say like I said it is there because it is instruction in what we are supposed to be striving for.
I'm going to say something I've been hesitant to say because you tend to stop reading once it is said...but here goes anyway...
I never quit reading ,I just don't buy what you are selling sometimes.
On the face of things, no, truth is not made 'untruth' by the character of who is speaking.
BUT (now please keep reading...OK?...it makes for a better conversation, imo)...
Truth is made into a lie by the character of who is speaking.
Hold on before you stop reading and fly into a rebuttal...OK?
The truth is made into a lie by weaving it with lies, by changing the focus of the truth to the lie, by using the truth to perpetrate and perpetuate a lie, by...and you should be familiar with this concept...adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc.
As I said previously (speaking of not reading) If you change it you do not have truth If one were to alter truth as you described above it does not change truth. The truth still exists and what you have is a separate or new idea.
So that what you have in the end is no longer the truth, but a pack of lies made somewhat believable with a smattering of half-truths here and there.
And the result is always death...of some sort.
Which is the fruit of pfal.
Your assessment, I don't share you view. As I said PFAL contains true and untrue things where you have true statements they stand, where you have untruth it falls, as it does not stand the test. One could still benefit from all of the work within that is true.
Your assessment, I don't share you view. As I said PFAL contains true and untrue things where you have true statements they stand, where you have untruth it falls, as it does not stand the test. One could still benefit from all of the work within that is true.
Then why not "glean" the truth, "discard" the untruth and teach the class that way? How can you possibly disagree with doing that? Wouldn't that be a "more perfect" class? ...more beneficial to the student?
(sorry... how did this thread morph into the new PFAL class thread?)
I don't Tom........ As I said I doubt that I would use it these days. But speaking as one who has already been exposed to it I won't deny that there is truth there that could be of use. Be honest give credit where it is due, accept that which is useful leave that which is not. Above all don't let the fact that you have an personal issue cause you to make a emotional judgment that is not fair and honest.
WD, Thank you for answering my questions. One last question fer ya(I think). Do you know anyone that is a more "stand up" person than vp? Who says more truth? I hope so. I guess I could quote you the bible and then do terrible things to you and your family(rape, ruin and destroy their and your lives). You would be here defending me saying justloafing speaks the truth. I would bet you would have nothing good to say about me.
Of course I would not do anything to hurt you or your family!!!
Your assessment, I don't share you view. As I said PFAL contains true and untrue things where you have true statements they stand, where you have untruth it falls, as it does not stand the test. One could still benefit from all of the work within that is true.
White Dove,
I get some truth out of everything. In fact, the very first problem I ever had in Alaska was because a branch leader overheard me saying, "There's truth in everything. Without the truth, there would be no lie."
One of my all-time favorite movies is What Dreams May Come. I like the movie so much mainly because of the scene where the husband chooses to stay in hell with his wife rather than leave her there alone. To me that scene brought to life how the Good Shepherd will leave the flock in safety while He goes to find the one lost sheep. It depicts how important just one life is to God. It depicts Jesus' love for us.
That scene was, for me, the antithesis of twi's take on things.
Because of that scene, my twit brain began to crack even more than it ever had before...even more than after all the horrendous evil twi manifested in Alaska.
Another one of my all-time favorite movies is Stigmata. Until I saw that movie, I never grasped the actual, physical reality of Jesus bearing the cross.
TWI never taught me or showed me the love of Jesus.
TWI made the cross of Christ foolishness and a stumblingblock.
In two very spread out and unrelated hours I learned more about Jesus and His love for me than I ever learned in all the hours of pfal, all the hours of twig, all the hours of branch meetings, all the hours of limb meetings, all the hours of sns tapes, all the hours of all of my life in twi.
Why?
Because pfal, and, therefore, the monster pfal spawned (aka twi), was a pack of lies with a bunch of half-truths tossed in to make it believable.
How do I know this about pfal and twi for an absolute certainty?
Because of the rotten fruit of pfal and twi.
How do I know it's rotten fruit?
For starters I have never heard of one single home to which pfal brought more harmony.
Adultery is the standard in twi, not the exception. In fact, adultery is heralded as something one can 'enjoy' if one is 'spiritually mature enough to handle it'.
Domestic abuse is the standard in twi, not the exception. In fact, twi 'leadership' will go so far as to pit husband against wife, wife against husband, parents against children...just for the sake of twi.
Pedophilia is routinely covered up in twi. In fact, twi leadership will go so far as to hide perpetrators from due justice...all for the sake of twi.
This is just for starters when it comes to rotten fruit of pfal and the monster pfal spawned (aka twi).
And don't go telling me that pfal didn't support any of this hogwash. Piffle ignored these basic biblical truths concerning such matters.
BUT, if you (or anyone else) want to hold to pfal and the monster it spawned (aka twi), be my guest.
I think you'd be far better off making a class out of the two above-mentioned movies and living your life according to the truths found in them.
Because you'd at least know how to make Jesus your lord and not just give the pfal version of puffed-up knowledge and lip service to the concept.
Well Cool our experiences are vastly different that's all I can say. I'm satisfied with the truth I learned. That's not to say it was perfect by any means. None the less it is rare that a day passes that I don't use something that I learned from my time there.
I just don`t see God calling you to hear his truth and others to be destroyed by the same truth...
A more likely scenario would be that a counterfit slapped a lable of *truth* upon itself ... this explains why people would be decieved into trusting pfal as spiritually healthy... and yet it being the foundation layed for future viscious abuse and betrayal.
That simply is not how God operates....
The *truth* of twi was a lie ...counterfit... and to base ones life on this is to never know the genuine :(
Well Cool our experiences are vastly different that's all I can say. I'm satisfied with the truth I learned. That's not to say it was perfect by any means. None the less it is rare that a day passes that I don't use something that I learned from my time there.
White Dove,
Your twi experiences may not reflect the extreme and bizarre and deadly aspects many of us experienced, but I do know that your twi experiences...and the results of your twi indoctrination...weren't/aren't all that godly.
Come to think of it, in at least two different situations I know of, your twi experiences paralleled mine.
Yet you let people terribly hurt and wickedly destroyed by twi think that you have 'enjoyed' a different outcome in your life.
This is part of the insidious crooked thinking taught to you by pfal/twi.
I know another man (someone you know) who does the same thing you're doing here. He even preaches from his self-made pulpit how proud he is of never letting anybody see that he has any problems in life. He slinks around after his 'church' services seeking out people he knows are having problems (he knows this because he's their 'pastor', after all, so people turn to him with open hearts) and offers them a chance to, and I quote him here, "live in the bubble". If someone does not accept his offer, he sets out to destroy them...because, and I quote him here again, "they have a spirit of pride I won't let into my church".
It took me years to realize that he probably doesn't even know what he's doing...that he, in fact, is so dyed-in-the-wool twit brained that he can't see anything else. (Now here's an opportunity for you to use that knowledge you so dearly cleave to. "Dyed-in-the-wool" is a specific sort of figure of speech with a very specific meaning. I don't use it lightly.)
It is a deep hurt to my heart to see people I have known and loved for 31 years (yeah...I'm including you here) live in such denial and crooked thinking that they have lost their ability to love their neighbors as themselves...because it is obvious they do not love themselves.
Once upon a time, White Dove, both you and this other man I speak of would have died for your brothers and sisters in Christ. What little I ever experienced in twi of anything even remotely close to the love Jesus has for us, it was because of people like you and this other man.
All of these years later I've looked up such folks.
All of you have changed. All of you have become unrecognizable. All of you have 'evolved' so far away from that simple love you held.
I was the same way. You know that! You saw how I treated Bob in his last days of life! (Dear God in heaven, hear my plea. I am sorry.)
The Lord awakened me from that deep slumber. He did it via the many, many witnesses that would not let me stay asleep.
So I say to you, "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." I ask you to read all of Ephesians 5 so that you can have a full understanding of who Paul was saying is asleep.
You may not be able to receive this right now. It took me years to even begin to comprehend that I was asleep.
I won't let you stay asleep if I can help it in any way. I won't let you lull me back to sleep, either.
It is true we go back a long ways, and for whatever reason our paths continue to cross from time to time. And yes some of our twi experiences paralleled each others. You mentioned Bob it's no secret that at times he was treated badly in the way. But in the end it was exway people and an exway clergy that made sure he received the memorial service that he requested. These are not people that live in a bubble, if we were that would never have happened. It happened because of that foundation of love and service. Think what you want but my life has enjoyed a very different outcome. That is not to say that I don't face the same bumps in the road everyone else does. This is really not TWI related everyone faces challenges in life. Here is where we differ, The foundation I have to fall back on in those times, much but not all of it was learning/truth from my time in the way. Life throws us all curves at times I don't live in a bubble by any means. When the winds of changes shift and the house crumbles( I call HAPe4me's fix it service- sorry couldn't resist) When that happens you simply rebuild on the same solid foundation that you always had. Believe me I am not on a parallel course with your "friend" from KC it took all of about 15 minutes to see his deal, in fact I'm insulted that you put us in the same sentence.
I'll say it again and again until I die truth is truth, that which is true one can use to build a solid foundation for life. Maybe that does not work for you but it has served me well. It is a better alternative at least for me than years of therapy and drugs that many turn to to function. I'm sorry that you choose to throw out truth because of an emotional response. Speaking of sleep my friend Mr. Dylan who will be playing in your town next month said:
God don't make promises that he don't keep. You got some big dreams baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep. When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?
I think what this boils down to is the black & white thinking that we learned in TWI. Something is good or it's bad - there is no gray. HOWEVER, if you look at "truth" in TWI with the same regard for "in the context" - yes, it contains truth, but in the same way that a counterfeit dollar bill contains some "true" materials found in the real deal. When one steps back so that they can see the forest for the trees - they can look at the big picture - the whole context within which that truth is packaged, it is clearly no longer truth, but fake and harmful.
The devil spoke the truth, but the truth that he spoke was spoken in such a way as to harm people. Because of the "context" in which that truth was delivered.
How "true" many of those truths are actually debatable, as well. ;)
To me, PFAL and TWI doctrine is like a sh1t cluster with a few diamonds in it somewhere. Sure there may be diamonds in there, but do you really want to go to the trouble of digging them out? Wouldn't you rather go to the place down the street where the diamonds aren't encrusted and where you can get them easily and freely?
Like you say WD... "truth is truth"... foundations built upon "truth", pure truth, would be strongest... foundations built upon a mix of "truth" and TWI could never be as strong... because they have the weakness of TWI mixed in... so why not construct yourself a foundation "free of TWI-isms"... that would be strongest wouldn't it? ...that would be "best" wouldn't it?
so why not construct yourself a foundation "free of TWI-isms"... that would be strongest wouldn't it? ...that would be "best" wouldn't it?
If I believed that all truth learned in the way were full of weakness as you do Tom then that would be true, Yes, But I am not of that opinion I am perfectly happy to use the good building materials freely available.
If I believed that all truth learned in the way were full of weakness as you do Tom then that would be true, Yes, But I am not of that opinion I am perfectly happy to use the good building materials freely available.
If I believed that all truth learned in the way were full of weakness as you do Tom then that would be true, Yes, But I am not of that opinion I am perfectly happy to use the good building materials freely available.
WD... that's a good point... but not THE point... you have said (many times I believe) that you have found things wrong with TWI, even with 'the class'... so my point was that any truth that you found in the class, was not from TWI (although they may have 'presented' it) but from God (regardless of who 'presented' it) and by discarding the non-truth part you would have a better, firmer foundation. Surely you can't argue with that logic... or maybe you can as you keep on trying to change what I've been saying...
I think that how much actual truth one feels they learned in TWI depends a great deal on how much truth one had before joining.
If you were raised a Christian and had learned about Christ and his atonement, about the gifts if the spirit, about loving your neighbor, about charity etc etc, BEFORE you joined TWI then you don't credit TWI with learning these things from them.
If on the other hand, TWI was your introduction to Christ, extremely flawed though it was, you might very well claim you learned things that, people like my self already took for granted.
I am willing to concede that I have been sharper than I needed to with WD, pond etc SOMETIMES because I didn't stop to consider this point.
BUT
(knew there had to be one didn't ya )
That in no way changes my position that PFAL and TWI are riddled with error, and should be avoided.
If on the other hand, TWI was your introduction to Christ, extremely flawed though it was, you might very well claim you learned things that, people like my self already took for granted.
I reckon there's something there, Mo. I didn't consider that. I suppose it's much like how a child raised in an extremely abusive home will still love and defend the parents no matter how rotten and evil they were because it's all they've known.
WD... that's a good point... but not THE point... you have said (many times I believe) that you have found things wrong with TWI, even with 'the class'... so my point was that any truth that you found in the class, was not from TWI (although they may have 'presented' it) but from God (regardless of who 'presented' it) and by discarding the non-truth part you would have a better, firmer foundation. Surely you can't argue with that logic... or maybe you can as you keep on trying to change what I've been saying...
Ok we agree in part. the non-truth is gone. Now I have materials that can be used for reference that have truth in them printed by the way.
TWI was not my introduction to Christ. But it was an introduction to a world of truth that churches or any place else could not offer, not that it was their fault they did not have it to give.......
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WhiteDove
There are but you can never have to much I'd say, so why throw some away.....
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oldiesman
There were times he was a loving, gentle, caring man.
Other times he was harsh, cold and ruthless.
His fruit varied.
Which is why it'd be foolish to determine what the truth is, based upon his actions one way or the other.
I agree WD.
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WhiteDove
quote name='CoolWaters' date='Mar 30 2006, 12:06 PM' post='227895']
OK, White Dove, I found your 'answer'...and I didn't know it was an answer...'cause it came across as flippant and more akin something you said to make your point...and it didn't include any explanation.
Well sorry that was my final answer, I suppose I thought it was self explanatory. I really don't know what more there is to say like I said it is there because it is instruction in what we are supposed to be striving for.
I'm going to say something I've been hesitant to say because you tend to stop reading once it is said...but here goes anyway...
I never quit reading ,I just don't buy what you are selling sometimes.
On the face of things, no, truth is not made 'untruth' by the character of who is speaking.
BUT (now please keep reading...OK?...it makes for a better conversation, imo)...
Truth is made into a lie by the character of who is speaking.
Hold on before you stop reading and fly into a rebuttal...OK?
The truth is made into a lie by weaving it with lies, by changing the focus of the truth to the lie, by using the truth to perpetrate and perpetuate a lie, by...and you should be familiar with this concept...adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc.
As I said previously (speaking of not reading) If you change it you do not have truth If one were to alter truth as you described above it does not change truth. The truth still exists and what you have is a separate or new idea.
So that what you have in the end is no longer the truth, but a pack of lies made somewhat believable with a smattering of half-truths here and there.
And the result is always death...of some sort.
Which is the fruit of pfal.
Your assessment, I don't share you view. As I said PFAL contains true and untrue things where you have true statements they stand, where you have untruth it falls, as it does not stand the test. One could still benefit from all of the work within that is true.
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Belle
To me, it's just focusing on the details as a way to avoid facing the truth of the bigger picture.
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Tom Strange
WD said (my emphasis):
Then why not "glean" the truth, "discard" the untruth and teach the class that way? How can you possibly disagree with doing that? Wouldn't that be a "more perfect" class? ...more beneficial to the student?
(sorry... how did this thread morph into the new PFAL class thread?)
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WhiteDove
I don't Tom........ As I said I doubt that I would use it these days. But speaking as one who has already been exposed to it I won't deny that there is truth there that could be of use. Be honest give credit where it is due, accept that which is useful leave that which is not. Above all don't let the fact that you have an personal issue cause you to make a emotional judgment that is not fair and honest.
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WordWolf
Acts 16:16-18. (KJV)
"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a
spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of
the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation.
And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit,
I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out
the same hour."
====
Luke 4:9-11. (KJV)
"And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple,
and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot
against a stone."
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justloafing
WD, Thank you for answering my questions. One last question fer ya(I think). Do you know anyone that is a more "stand up" person than vp? Who says more truth? I hope so. I guess I could quote you the bible and then do terrible things to you and your family(rape, ruin and destroy their and your lives). You would be here defending me saying justloafing speaks the truth. I would bet you would have nothing good to say about me.
Of course I would not do anything to hurt you or your family!!!
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CoolWaters
White Dove,
I get some truth out of everything. In fact, the very first problem I ever had in Alaska was because a branch leader overheard me saying, "There's truth in everything. Without the truth, there would be no lie."
One of my all-time favorite movies is What Dreams May Come. I like the movie so much mainly because of the scene where the husband chooses to stay in hell with his wife rather than leave her there alone. To me that scene brought to life how the Good Shepherd will leave the flock in safety while He goes to find the one lost sheep. It depicts how important just one life is to God. It depicts Jesus' love for us.
That scene was, for me, the antithesis of twi's take on things.
Because of that scene, my twit brain began to crack even more than it ever had before...even more than after all the horrendous evil twi manifested in Alaska.
Another one of my all-time favorite movies is Stigmata. Until I saw that movie, I never grasped the actual, physical reality of Jesus bearing the cross.
TWI never taught me or showed me the love of Jesus.
TWI made the cross of Christ foolishness and a stumblingblock.
In two very spread out and unrelated hours I learned more about Jesus and His love for me than I ever learned in all the hours of pfal, all the hours of twig, all the hours of branch meetings, all the hours of limb meetings, all the hours of sns tapes, all the hours of all of my life in twi.
Why?
Because pfal, and, therefore, the monster pfal spawned (aka twi), was a pack of lies with a bunch of half-truths tossed in to make it believable.
How do I know this about pfal and twi for an absolute certainty?
Because of the rotten fruit of pfal and twi.
How do I know it's rotten fruit?
For starters I have never heard of one single home to which pfal brought more harmony.
Adultery is the standard in twi, not the exception. In fact, adultery is heralded as something one can 'enjoy' if one is 'spiritually mature enough to handle it'.
Domestic abuse is the standard in twi, not the exception. In fact, twi 'leadership' will go so far as to pit husband against wife, wife against husband, parents against children...just for the sake of twi.
Pedophilia is routinely covered up in twi. In fact, twi leadership will go so far as to hide perpetrators from due justice...all for the sake of twi.
This is just for starters when it comes to rotten fruit of pfal and the monster pfal spawned (aka twi).
And don't go telling me that pfal didn't support any of this hogwash. Piffle ignored these basic biblical truths concerning such matters.
BUT, if you (or anyone else) want to hold to pfal and the monster it spawned (aka twi), be my guest.
I think you'd be far better off making a class out of the two above-mentioned movies and living your life according to the truths found in them.
Because you'd at least know how to make Jesus your lord and not just give the pfal version of puffed-up knowledge and lip service to the concept.
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WhiteDove
Well Cool our experiences are vastly different that's all I can say. I'm satisfied with the truth I learned. That's not to say it was perfect by any means. None the less it is rare that a day passes that I don't use something that I learned from my time there.
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rascal
I just don`t see God calling you to hear his truth and others to be destroyed by the same truth...
A more likely scenario would be that a counterfit slapped a lable of *truth* upon itself ... this explains why people would be decieved into trusting pfal as spiritually healthy... and yet it being the foundation layed for future viscious abuse and betrayal.
That simply is not how God operates....
The *truth* of twi was a lie ...counterfit... and to base ones life on this is to never know the genuine :(
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CoolWaters
White Dove,
Your twi experiences may not reflect the extreme and bizarre and deadly aspects many of us experienced, but I do know that your twi experiences...and the results of your twi indoctrination...weren't/aren't all that godly.
Come to think of it, in at least two different situations I know of, your twi experiences paralleled mine.
Yet you let people terribly hurt and wickedly destroyed by twi think that you have 'enjoyed' a different outcome in your life.
This is part of the insidious crooked thinking taught to you by pfal/twi.
I know another man (someone you know) who does the same thing you're doing here. He even preaches from his self-made pulpit how proud he is of never letting anybody see that he has any problems in life. He slinks around after his 'church' services seeking out people he knows are having problems (he knows this because he's their 'pastor', after all, so people turn to him with open hearts) and offers them a chance to, and I quote him here, "live in the bubble". If someone does not accept his offer, he sets out to destroy them...because, and I quote him here again, "they have a spirit of pride I won't let into my church".
It took me years to realize that he probably doesn't even know what he's doing...that he, in fact, is so dyed-in-the-wool twit brained that he can't see anything else. (Now here's an opportunity for you to use that knowledge you so dearly cleave to. "Dyed-in-the-wool" is a specific sort of figure of speech with a very specific meaning. I don't use it lightly.)
It is a deep hurt to my heart to see people I have known and loved for 31 years (yeah...I'm including you here) live in such denial and crooked thinking that they have lost their ability to love their neighbors as themselves...because it is obvious they do not love themselves.
Once upon a time, White Dove, both you and this other man I speak of would have died for your brothers and sisters in Christ. What little I ever experienced in twi of anything even remotely close to the love Jesus has for us, it was because of people like you and this other man.
All of these years later I've looked up such folks.
All of you have changed. All of you have become unrecognizable. All of you have 'evolved' so far away from that simple love you held.
I was the same way. You know that! You saw how I treated Bob in his last days of life! (Dear God in heaven, hear my plea. I am sorry.)
The Lord awakened me from that deep slumber. He did it via the many, many witnesses that would not let me stay asleep.
So I say to you, "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." I ask you to read all of Ephesians 5 so that you can have a full understanding of who Paul was saying is asleep.
You may not be able to receive this right now. It took me years to even begin to comprehend that I was asleep.
I won't let you stay asleep if I can help it in any way. I won't let you lull me back to sleep, either.
**********************************
rascal,
This one's for you.
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WhiteDove
Coolwaters
It is true we go back a long ways, and for whatever reason our paths continue to cross from time to time. And yes some of our twi experiences paralleled each others. You mentioned Bob it's no secret that at times he was treated badly in the way. But in the end it was exway people and an exway clergy that made sure he received the memorial service that he requested. These are not people that live in a bubble, if we were that would never have happened. It happened because of that foundation of love and service. Think what you want but my life has enjoyed a very different outcome. That is not to say that I don't face the same bumps in the road everyone else does. This is really not TWI related everyone faces challenges in life. Here is where we differ, The foundation I have to fall back on in those times, much but not all of it was learning/truth from my time in the way. Life throws us all curves at times I don't live in a bubble by any means. When the winds of changes shift and the house crumbles( I call HAPe4me's fix it service- sorry couldn't resist) When that happens you simply rebuild on the same solid foundation that you always had. Believe me I am not on a parallel course with your "friend" from KC it took all of about 15 minutes to see his deal, in fact I'm insulted that you put us in the same sentence.
I'll say it again and again until I die truth is truth, that which is true one can use to build a solid foundation for life. Maybe that does not work for you but it has served me well. It is a better alternative at least for me than years of therapy and drugs that many turn to to function. I'm sorry that you choose to throw out truth because of an emotional response. Speaking of sleep my friend Mr. Dylan who will be playing in your town next month said:
God don't make promises that he don't keep. You got some big dreams baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep. When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?
Maybe I'll see you there.........
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Belle
Very poignant, CW. :)
I think what this boils down to is the black & white thinking that we learned in TWI. Something is good or it's bad - there is no gray. HOWEVER, if you look at "truth" in TWI with the same regard for "in the context" - yes, it contains truth, but in the same way that a counterfeit dollar bill contains some "true" materials found in the real deal. When one steps back so that they can see the forest for the trees - they can look at the big picture - the whole context within which that truth is packaged, it is clearly no longer truth, but fake and harmful.
The devil spoke the truth, but the truth that he spoke was spoken in such a way as to harm people. Because of the "context" in which that truth was delivered.
How "true" many of those truths are actually debatable, as well. ;)
To me, PFAL and TWI doctrine is like a sh1t cluster with a few diamonds in it somewhere. Sure there may be diamonds in there, but do you really want to go to the trouble of digging them out? Wouldn't you rather go to the place down the street where the diamonds aren't encrusted and where you can get them easily and freely?
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Tom Strange
Like you say WD... "truth is truth"... foundations built upon "truth", pure truth, would be strongest... foundations built upon a mix of "truth" and TWI could never be as strong... because they have the weakness of TWI mixed in... so why not construct yourself a foundation "free of TWI-isms"... that would be strongest wouldn't it? ...that would be "best" wouldn't it?
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WhiteDove
If I believed that all truth learned in the way were full of weakness as you do Tom then that would be true, Yes, But I am not of that opinion I am perfectly happy to use the good building materials freely available.
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justloafing
"FREELY" :blink:
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Tom Strange
WD... that's a good point... but not THE point... you have said (many times I believe) that you have found things wrong with TWI, even with 'the class'... so my point was that any truth that you found in the class, was not from TWI (although they may have 'presented' it) but from God (regardless of who 'presented' it) and by discarding the non-truth part you would have a better, firmer foundation. Surely you can't argue with that logic... or maybe you can as you keep on trying to change what I've been saying...
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templelady
I think that how much actual truth one feels they learned in TWI depends a great deal on how much truth one had before joining.
If you were raised a Christian and had learned about Christ and his atonement, about the gifts if the spirit, about loving your neighbor, about charity etc etc, BEFORE you joined TWI then you don't credit TWI with learning these things from them.
If on the other hand, TWI was your introduction to Christ, extremely flawed though it was, you might very well claim you learned things that, people like my self already took for granted.
I am willing to concede that I have been sharper than I needed to with WD, pond etc SOMETIMES because I didn't stop to consider this point.
BUT
(knew there had to be one didn't ya
)
That in no way changes my position that PFAL and TWI are riddled with error, and should be avoided.
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Tom Strange
That's a good point TL...
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Belle
I reckon there's something there, Mo. I didn't consider that. I suppose it's much like how a child raised in an extremely abusive home will still love and defend the parents no matter how rotten and evil they were because it's all they've known.
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WhiteDove
Ok we agree in part. the non-truth is gone. Now I have materials that can be used for reference that have truth in them printed by the way.
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WhiteDove
TWI was not my introduction to Christ. But it was an introduction to a world of truth that churches or any place else could not offer, not that it was their fault they did not have it to give.......
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
templelady
i love oxymorons
the way and charity in the same sentice!!lol
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