You mischaracterize what I say oldies and you know it.
It makes all the difference in the world according to scriptures as to what is the true nature of a person inside.
That is why we were given sign posts silly...because it is too easy to fake being a Christian with pretty words and pontificaying scriptures.
Go ahead, ignore God`s advice oldies, I don`t care. God told us how to identify one another and what is in store for people who manifest the behavior of vpw and his leaders.
If I am mischaracterizing you, then you need to be more clear about what you are promoting and your interpretation of Galatians 5.
I get the idea from your interpretation of Galatians 5, that since VP and LCM and others (perhaps even "we") have committed some of those works of the flesh spoke about in Galatians 5, that they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
If that is the truth, then I apply that same truth to Saul of Tarsus, who also committed some of those things.
Don`t know if you are being deliberatly obtuse or just like to argue oldies ...I only know what the scriptures clearly say about vpw`s actions/fruit of the flesh .... and where they will land him eventually...and further more why the scriptures tell us not to trust someone who does these things.
I think part of the reason vpw`s dogma/pfal is so subtly dangerous is that he was able to successfully convince folks as to WHY it was ok so many times to make excuses to ignore obviously clear biblical instructions...when we`d rather not comply.
That fruit of the spirit or the flesh isn`t something you strive to achieve or to hide...it is simply IS .... an example of what is inside of us....good or bad.
I surmise that is why God made the effort to point out these sign posts to guide us, so that we wouldn`t be decieved by any idiot that manages to ponitficate scriptures...
Again, in my opinion....a symptom of why pfal is dangerous....yeah sure....scriptures say THIS...but that can`t REALLY be what it means.
I trust the scriptures far more than anybody`s excuses as to why we ought to ignore them.
I would define unrepentant sinners as those who have not yet repented.
Maybe you define it differently.
OM, I was going to say you're being purposely dumb again...but then I realized that you cling to the mindset of vpw et al who lived using grace as a season of the flesh.
On the other hand, maybe you have many, many purposes to think like people who use grace as a season of the flesh...
Also in looking back upon the fruit of so many of the leaders in twi, judging the swath of destruction left in peoples lives....I have to doubt pfal/vpw`s understanding of spirituality of the sGodly Christian walk.
Judging by the many accounts of unwarranted viscious cruelty that was exhibited ...I have to seriously wonder if they were EVER of the spirit...or simply wannabe`s
OM, I was going to say you're being purposely dumb again...but then I realized that you cling to the mindset of vpw et al who lived using grace as a season of the flesh.
On the other hand, maybe you have many, many purposes to think like people who use grace as a season of the flesh...
Coolwaters, I notice some of your posts have been a tad insulting lately.
That fruit of the spirit or the flesh isn`t something you strive to achieve or to hide...it is simply IS .... an example of what is inside of us....good or bad. ...
Another telling admission here.
A persons' fruit and / or what is inside of them is either good OR bad?
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Judging by the many accounts of unwarranted viscious cruelty that was exhibited ... I have to seriously wonder if they were EVER of the spirit...or simply wannabe`s.
Naturally. When all you consider in your judgment is works of someone's flesh, and toss everything else about their life, for example what good they have done, you can't come to any other conclusion.
Coolwaters, I notice some of your posts have been a tad insulting lately.
Doesn't seem like you. Are you ok?
I still like ya. :)
Have one on me:
CoolWaters edits out picture of Drambuie bottle to save loading time and bandwidth.
Well, OM, I don't want to be insulting...but I do want to smack ya sometimes. I guess I use sharp words instead. I'm sorry.
Am I OK? Good question.
You see, I currently live (and for the last 30 or so years have lived) with a person who comes across almost exactly the same way you do concerning the bible, God, Jesus, vpw, etc. For 4 years I also attended the church of people who have this same kind of thinking you put out here. I spent 25+ years in twi with people who have your kind of thinking.
I know how this kind of thinking pans out. I know why people hold to this kind of thinking. I know their motives.
It ain't got a thing to do with God, godliness, the bible or Jesus...
But it has everything to do with using grace as a season of the flesh.
Why do I care what you think?
I don't.
What I do care about are those who are influenced by what you (and others) post/think.
Right now there is a person I care about deeply who is reading this mentality you're putting out here concerning God, Jesus and the bible.
It deeply concerns me that this person is/has been taken in by it all...and refuses to believe what it leads to.
OM, like it or not, you're 'witnessing'. And what you're touting has been proven to destroy lives in the worst imaginable ways.
I still like you, too.
But I can't stand aside while people get led to destruction.
That's interesting, because I think your argument is completely invalid as well.
Not because the scriptures don't say what you are saying, but because you consistently elevate certain scriptures way way way up there to the skies, while simultaneously ignoring other scriptures in your assessment.
If you said "I don't know" because there is evidence on both sides, it'd be more believable.
Galatians says that *fruit* is basically a spiritual measuring stick....the difference between a spirit filled Christian and a wannabe imposter.
It is the difference between the genuine and counterfit...an inheritance in the kingdom of heaven or not...IF you believe the scriptures.
Why did we need it spelled out so clearly? I suppose because it is so hard to tell from the outside what is on the inside of a person. Folks can be mighty deceptive....who knows, maybe even mistaken...that is why taking note of what a person manifests is vital.
You have not given a valid argument for the dismissal of the evidence and clear instructions given to warn and protect us from false prophets.
Scriptures on getting born again, and receiving forgiveness of sins, to name two.
According to Rascal's condemnation of these men and others, they have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God, because they did those works of the flesh stated in Galatians 5.
( I should say some of "us" even, because some of "us" may have done some of those things in Gal. 5 :unsure: )
But that blanket condemnation ignores Christ's death on the cross for our sins, their sins, everyone's sins.
Also ignores that these men believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, believed in Christ's sacrifice, ... proclaimed it, taught it, ooodles of times .... so they weren't unbelievers or Christ rejectors.
Also, ignores I John, that says when we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
She must believe that these men didn't do that since she believes they are destined for hell.
But how could she possibly know they didn't ask God for forgiveness?
I don't know, but she does!
And so, these men are going to hell because they committed those evil acts in Galatians 5, and to heck with any other evidence to the contrary.
Cw said.." OM like it or not you are 'witnessing' and what you are touting has been proven to destroy peoples lives..."
Yes CW..like a couple of other posters here, come on, if it's o.k. for one to do it and get away without getting pulled up, it's o.k. for all. Otherwise that thinking makes this forum another one where the worst kind of biggoted, hypocrites hang out.
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rascal
You mischaracterize what I say oldies and you know it.
It makes all the difference in the world according to scriptures as to what is the true nature of a person inside.
That is why we were given sign posts silly...because it is too easy to fake being a Christian with pretty words and pontificaying scriptures.
Go ahead, ignore God`s advice oldies, I don`t care. God told us how to identify one another and what is in store for people who manifest the behavior of vpw and his leaders.
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oldiesman
If I am mischaracterizing you, then you need to be more clear about what you are promoting and your interpretation of Galatians 5.
I get the idea from your interpretation of Galatians 5, that since VP and LCM and others (perhaps even "we") have committed some of those works of the flesh spoke about in Galatians 5, that they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
If that is the truth, then I apply that same truth to Saul of Tarsus, who also committed some of those things.
No double standards.
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CoolWaters
OM! You are being purposely dumb.
You KNOW darn good and well that these good people are NOT talking about repentant sinners, but unrepentant sinners.
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oldiesman
I think we need to get our definitions in sync.
I would define unrepentant sinners as those who have not yet repented.
Maybe you define it differently.
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rascal
Don`t know if you are being deliberatly obtuse or just like to argue oldies ...I only know what the scriptures clearly say about vpw`s actions/fruit of the flesh .... and where they will land him eventually...and further more why the scriptures tell us not to trust someone who does these things.
I think part of the reason vpw`s dogma/pfal is so subtly dangerous is that he was able to successfully convince folks as to WHY it was ok so many times to make excuses to ignore obviously clear biblical instructions...when we`d rather not comply.
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CM
too literal oldiesman
your interpretation counts everyone out
it the works that do not yield the fruit
and i'll say this-if one person ain't goin to heaven then count me out
but i believe all are, and it may be surprising what enters and what does not from the heart of a soul
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oldiesman
Yes! That is part of the point I make with Rascal's interpretation of Galatians 5.
She looks at the works of VP and LCM and others, and says they are not going to inherit the Kingdom of God, and she goes by Galatians 5.
Yes, when you take Galatians 5 literally, yes, they (and maybe even "we" :unsure: ) shall not inherit the Kingdom.
Yes, that is what happens when you take one verse, literally, and throw out other verses to the contrary.
And when you do that, Saul of Tarsus falls under that as well.
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CM
rascal is talking more about here and now though
and who to spot and listen to for truth
not the end result of a person's life
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rascal
That fruit of the spirit or the flesh isn`t something you strive to achieve or to hide...it is simply IS .... an example of what is inside of us....good or bad.
I surmise that is why God made the effort to point out these sign posts to guide us, so that we wouldn`t be decieved by any idiot that manages to ponitficate scriptures...
Again, in my opinion....a symptom of why pfal is dangerous....yeah sure....scriptures say THIS...but that can`t REALLY be what it means.
I trust the scriptures far more than anybody`s excuses as to why we ought to ignore them.
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CoolWaters
OM, I was going to say you're being purposely dumb again...but then I realized that you cling to the mindset of vpw et al who lived using grace as a season of the flesh.
On the other hand, maybe you have many, many purposes to think like people who use grace as a season of the flesh...
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rascal
Exactly CM...
Also in looking back upon the fruit of so many of the leaders in twi, judging the swath of destruction left in peoples lives....I have to doubt pfal/vpw`s understanding of spirituality of the sGodly Christian walk.
Judging by the many accounts of unwarranted viscious cruelty that was exhibited ...I have to seriously wonder if they were EVER of the spirit...or simply wannabe`s
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, I notice some of your posts have been a tad insulting lately.
Doesn't seem like you. Are you ok?
I still like ya. :)
Have one on me:
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oldiesman
Another telling admission here.
A persons' fruit and / or what is inside of them is either good OR bad?
Cannot be a combination of both?
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CM
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
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oldiesman
You say you trust the scriptures but from what I observe, you trust only those scriptures that support your position.
So yeah you trust some, but you ignore many others.
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CM
Oldiesman
funny how i always see you attacking rascal
why is that?
why not start a thread on your beliefs?
i'm sure some would chime in
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oldiesman
Naturally. When all you consider in your judgment is works of someone's flesh, and toss everything else about their life, for example what good they have done, you can't come to any other conclusion.
Guilty as charged.
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CoolWaters
Well, OM, I don't want to be insulting...but I do want to smack ya sometimes.
I guess I use sharp words instead. I'm sorry.
Am I OK? Good question.
You see, I currently live (and for the last 30 or so years have lived) with a person who comes across almost exactly the same way you do concerning the bible, God, Jesus, vpw, etc. For 4 years I also attended the church of people who have this same kind of thinking you put out here. I spent 25+ years in twi with people who have your kind of thinking.
I know how this kind of thinking pans out. I know why people hold to this kind of thinking. I know their motives.
It ain't got a thing to do with God, godliness, the bible or Jesus...
But it has everything to do with using grace as a season of the flesh.
Why do I care what you think?
I don't.
What I do care about are those who are influenced by what you (and others) post/think.
Right now there is a person I care about deeply who is reading this mentality you're putting out here concerning God, Jesus and the bible.
It deeply concerns me that this person is/has been taken in by it all...and refuses to believe what it leads to.
OM, like it or not, you're 'witnessing'. And what you're touting has been proven to destroy lives in the worst imaginable ways.
I still like you, too.
But I can't stand aside while people get led to destruction.
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rascal
I only see that in THIS case it would appear that you do not have a valid argument to counter what is clearly stated in the scriptures...
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oldiesman
That's interesting, because I think your argument is completely invalid as well.
Not because the scriptures don't say what you are saying, but because you consistently elevate certain scriptures way way way up there to the skies, while simultaneously ignoring other scriptures in your assessment.
If you said "I don't know" because there is evidence on both sides, it'd be more believable.
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rascal
Galatians says that *fruit* is basically a spiritual measuring stick....the difference between a spirit filled Christian and a wannabe imposter.
It is the difference between the genuine and counterfit...an inheritance in the kingdom of heaven or not...IF you believe the scriptures.
Why did we need it spelled out so clearly? I suppose because it is so hard to tell from the outside what is on the inside of a person. Folks can be mighty deceptive....who knows, maybe even mistaken...that is why taking note of what a person manifests is vital.
You have not given a valid argument for the dismissal of the evidence and clear instructions given to warn and protect us from false prophets.
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CM
oldies...
which ones?
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oldiesman
Scriptures on getting born again, and receiving forgiveness of sins, to name two.
According to Rascal's condemnation of these men and others, they have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God, because they did those works of the flesh stated in Galatians 5.
( I should say some of "us" even, because some of "us" may have done some of those things in Gal. 5 :unsure: )
But that blanket condemnation ignores Christ's death on the cross for our sins, their sins, everyone's sins.
Also ignores that these men believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, believed in Christ's sacrifice, ... proclaimed it, taught it, ooodles of times .... so they weren't unbelievers or Christ rejectors.
Also, ignores I John, that says when we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
She must believe that these men didn't do that since she believes they are destined for hell.
But how could she possibly know they didn't ask God for forgiveness?
I don't know, but she does!
And so, these men are going to hell because they committed those evil acts in Galatians 5, and to heck with any other evidence to the contrary.
Did I answer your question?
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allan w.
Cw said.." OM like it or not you are 'witnessing' and what you are touting has been proven to destroy peoples lives..."
Yes CW..like a couple of other posters here, come on, if it's o.k. for one to do it and get away without getting pulled up, it's o.k. for all. Otherwise that thinking makes this forum another one where the worst kind of biggoted, hypocrites hang out.
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