Ohhh.. You can do this without your big brother?? Phtttttt... OK.. I'll lay off you now but listen, dude.. I'll be all over you the next time you go picking on a little lady who doesn't want to have anything to do with you.
And if you were wealthy like that, I bet you would *manifest* the fact,
by spending that money, investing it, whatever --
instead of just being content that you had the money, and were who you were.
Manifesting the gifts, abilities, etc., that each and any of us have,
is the evidence, that we are who we are. smile.gif
David, I sorta get what you're saying, but regardless of whether you spend money or not, you're still wealthy. :) You don't have to spend, invest or whatever to keep the title of wealthy - you have a bunch of money or you don't.
Same thing with Mo's Apples & Oranges - which - THAT - I see and get a little more clearly, but I still come back to us being made righteous means we're righteous no matter what we do. Sure, it's not a license to sin, but sinning doesn't make us "unrighteous" if it's a gift that can't be taken back. TWI used it as a license to sin and I think that's absolutely wrong, btw.
I know the Bible says we reap what we sow, but isn't the bottom line that we are still able to stand before God as righteous sons and daughters regardless?
Maybe it's just the word "manifest" I have a problem with....I dunno....
I'm not trying to be a sh1t, really. I just never got this sonship rights as a gift but then having all these expected and required works tied onto them. <_<
It's all I was taught in TWI, CW. I realize it may not be correct (doh!) and I've never really "gotten" it because TWI teaches that you are automatically made righteous once you're born again, but then they go on talking about all the works your supposed to do to "manifest" your righteousness. It seems to me you are or you aren't and if you can't get that way by works, then why are you supposed to do these works to manifest your righteousness? Am I just not understanding what they're saying or it is just one cluster freak? :unsure:
This is part of it from Robin's article:
Romans 10:9-10
The instant any individual confesses that Jesus is lord and believes God raised him from the dead, that person is saved and becomes a son of God. At that same point, she says, that believer is made righteous before God, “for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness…”
A clear definition of righteousness can be found in The Bible Tells Me So, by vee pee wee. “Righteousness is the God-given justification whereby a person stands in the presence of God without any consciousness of sin, guilt, or shortcomings.” Spiritually, says Robin, a born again believer has the right to stand in the presence of God withouth any consciousness of sin, guilt, or shortcomings.
Some have erroneously taught that righteousness may be earned by performing good works. Reading the scriptures for ourselves enlightens us on the difference between God’s righteousness and man’s opinions of righteousness. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth. To live and claim our righteousness, she says, it is important to read the Word for ourselves and not merely rely on what people may say about it. God’s word declares that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10:3-4
Those, she says, who are unaware of God’s righteousness go about trying to establish their own righteousness. Even well meaning Christians may do all kinds of good works and beneficent acts trying to please God, but these good works do not make them righteousness.
That was my point in asking the question at all, Belle. :D
Trying to understand, explain or teach the truth about something from the pov of a lie is, well, ya know, not going to get anybody any closer to the truth. Robin bases her article on propounded lies without, interestingly enough, studying what the bible actually says.
[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
Okay lets look at these verses
2-4 we talk about the righteousness of God -nothing here about us being righteous in and of ourselves
verse 10 nothing about us being permanently righteous there either --instead it says that we believe unto righteousness with our heart.
In fact in Galations 5 we read
[1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love
She didn't say that well-meaning Christians aren't righteous.
She said "these good works do not make them righteous".
She is saying that we were made righteous by faith, through the works of Jesus Christ... not our own good works. (Philippians 3:9)
Funny, they don't practice what they preach. In TWI today, you have to be righteous in their eyes to be allowed to participate. This is done by repetitive, mind numbing, works of the flesh.
By the time we were booted, they were down to recording what my 10 year old was depositing in the way of change into the horn of plenty. Her name and how much all sent to HQ on the old blue form.
Wasn't at a loss for words Oaks, just don't see the point in getting into a 'bitchsnitchin' comp with someone who obviously has injected themselves in the head with their anaesthetic needle once too often !
If Mo thinks I'm getting too personal towards her or 'attacking' her I'm sure she will let me know, criticizing someones beliefs( especially if just about every post of theirs mentions their church )is not a personal attack, geesh, I thought some of you would know that by now.
Addendum: I also have stated before that I have way much more respect for Mo than many others because of how she still holds to her Christian tenets of belief and actively carries it out. I look forward to one day catching up (unless we're in differn't heavens of course !!) with Mo and others who are of Christs church.
Many 'unbelievers' are wonderful people, but that's ALL they are..wonderful people. One day they will be DEAD wonderful people, that's all.
So according to Allan....*many unbelievers that are wonderfull people* will simply be dead, while heaven is filled with any a$$hole that slaps the lable *Christian* on themselves by the recitation of a few bible verses, no matter how viscious cruel and destructive they were to fellow believers in this life?
I dunno, I think that there has got to be a little more to the formula than that <_<
I hear ya, rascal. Not that I care all that much anymore, but I sure got tired of hearing unrepentant sinners blabber on about their righteous standing before God. Ahhh, repentance--one of those pesky little concepts that got pushed to the back of the bus in twi. Actually, that one may have even started there. Not good for marketing you know.
Wasn't at a loss for words Oaks, just don't see the point in getting into a 'bitchsnitchin' comp with someone who obviously has injected themselves in the head with their anaesthetic needle once too often !
If you say so, but you guys were already pretty deep into a ....ing contest, or so it seemed to me. "Say that to my face" when in the midst of a "battle" of words on an internet forum seemed to be frustration with getting bested in said "battle". But I guess I'm wrong.
If Mo thinks I'm getting too personal towards her or 'attacking' her I'm sure she will let me know, criticizing someones beliefs( especially if just about every post of theirs mentions their church )is not a personal attack, geesh, I thought some of you would know that by now.
Do you lash out at the Mormons, Catholics, et al because you think that they are pushing their religions, you're irritated that so many bash your beliefs, or you just have a hard-on for these churches? Or another choice that I haven't thought of?
Many 'unbelievers' are wonderful people, but that's ALL they are..wonderful people. One day they will be DEAD wonderful people, that's all
Why thank you Allan, that's right nice of you. :unsure: I'm sure glad that I'm not bound by your view of my ultimate destination!
I think it prudent to remember that people tend to espouse the belief system they believe in when discussing any topic--I mean you would hardly espouse a belief system you didn't believe in , Right!!??!?
I therefore expect that
TWI, and TWI offshoots will convey TWIish thoughts
Baptists, Baptist thoughts
Agnostics, Agnostic thoughts
Wicca, Wiccan thoughts
and I as the resident LDS, LDS thoughts
That said
I don't feel it incumbent for me to attack others for their belief systems, I "attack" what I disagree with but not the person or their religion --a subtle difference that is too often lost in the heat of discussion
I am glad to see your posts and how you try to handle dilimenas in a mature, logical manner. Others remind me of two middle schoolers circling and yelling insults and threats on the playground, hoping a brawl will break out so they can prove who really is the big bad boy.
A lady in distress is thankful and relieved when a man comes to her aid and comports himself like a knight in shining armour. His cool head, manner of speaking about the sailient issues, etc. can diffuse the situation by guiding all parties towards a win-win solution to the problem.
I fear her distress would only be heightened by hot heads trying to best one another with insults and throwing punches. Seems like a lose-lose-win outcome, with no solution to her problem.
But this is just mho.
Templelady, I do hope Allen has gotten the message to stop stalking you from thread to thread just so that he can throw a punch at your statements about LDS; it's just so juvenile and pointless, as everyone already knows how he feels. Looks like maybe you are just ignoring him, and letting his behavior be his problem, not yours. That seems like a winning outcome for you. Keep up the good work in your postings - they're interesting and thought provoking.
suda (who likes the Mormans and respects them as a successful religious group, as evidenced by the good fruit they produce).
So according to Allan....*many unbelievers that are wonderfull people* will simply be dead, while heaven is filled with any a$$hole that slaps the lable *Christian* on themselves by the recitation of a few bible verses, no matter how viscious cruel and destructive they were to fellow believers in this life? ...
Saul of Tarsus, anyone?
... but I sure got tired of hearing unrepentant sinners blabber on about their righteous standing before God.
Was just speaking with a friend of mine who believes everyone is saved, regardless of what they believe, or even do, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
I haven't gone quite that far yet, but it is an interesting thought.
I didn`t read where Saul raped and murdered after his conversion.
There is a definate lack of understanding of the spiritual walk in twi leaders/vpw dogma adherents ...as is evidenced by the fruit consistantly manifested.
God has told Christians how to recognise one another.... You can make all of the excuses you like as to why you think that we ought to ignore those instructions....that doesn`t make it a good idea.
“Righteousness is the God-given justification whereby a person stands in the presence of God without any consciousness of sin, guilt, or shortcomings.”
Here is one of the main problems with TWI teachings.
They are simply unconscious in the presence of God.
Here is one of the main problems with TWI teachings.
They are simply unconscious in the presence of God.
ROFLMAO!!! CM, I think you’ve just summed it all up rather succinctly. :D
So according to Allan....*many unbelievers that are wonderfull people* will simply be dead, while heaven is filled with any a$$hole that slaps the lable *Christian* on themselves by the recitation of a few bible verses, no matter how viscious cruel and destructive they were to fellow believers in this life?
I reckon that’s why most people want nothing to do with the God that condones, promotes and accepts that kind of behavior. Certainly not a God I would want to worship.
I do hope Allen has gotten the message to stop stalking you from thread to thread just so that he can throw a punch at your statements about LDS; it's just so juvenile and pointless, as everyone already knows how he feels.
You're not the only one, Suda....you're not the only one..... :) Thank you.
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Now Now boys,be nice,This aint no barroom brawl.Remember it is a discussion,Please respect each others views or get out of kansas.
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Sudo
Allan,
Ohhh.. You can do this without your big brother?? Phtttttt... OK.. I'll lay off you now but listen, dude.. I'll be all over you the next time you go picking on a little lady who doesn't want to have anything to do with you.
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Belle
David, I sorta get what you're saying, but regardless of whether you spend money or not, you're still wealthy. :) You don't have to spend, invest or whatever to keep the title of wealthy - you have a bunch of money or you don't.
Same thing with Mo's Apples & Oranges - which - THAT - I see and get a little more clearly, but I still come back to us being made righteous means we're righteous no matter what we do. Sure, it's not a license to sin, but sinning doesn't make us "unrighteous" if it's a gift that can't be taken back. TWI used it as a license to sin and I think that's absolutely wrong, btw.
I know the Bible says we reap what we sow, but isn't the bottom line that we are still able to stand before God as righteous sons and daughters regardless?
Maybe it's just the word "manifest" I have a problem with....I dunno....
I'm not trying to be a sh1t, really. I just never got this sonship rights as a gift but then having all these expected and required works tied onto them. <_<
edited for spelling
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CoolWaters
Maybe I'm not understanding here...
But who says we're made righteous automatically?
Any righteousness we may have is associated with what we do and what we will be given...not with just because we're born again.
'Sonship Rights'...a terribly misleading, misguided, self-serving and unbiblical concept dreamed up by a man who needed to cover his a$$.
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Belle
It's all I was taught in TWI, CW. I realize it may not be correct (doh!) and I've never really "gotten" it because TWI teaches that you are automatically made righteous once you're born again, but then they go on talking about all the works your supposed to do to "manifest" your righteousness. It seems to me you are or you aren't and if you can't get that way by works, then why are you supposed to do these works to manifest your righteousness? Am I just not understanding what they're saying or it is just one cluster freak? :unsure:
This is part of it from Robin's article:
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CoolWaters
That was my point in asking the question at all, Belle. :D
Trying to understand, explain or teach the truth about something from the pov of a lie is, well, ya know, not going to get anybody any closer to the truth. Robin bases her article on propounded lies without, interestingly enough, studying what the bible actually says.
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templelady
Romans
[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
Okay lets look at these verses
2-4 we talk about the righteousness of God -nothing here about us being righteous in and of ourselves
verse 10 nothing about us being permanently righteous there either --instead it says that we believe unto righteousness with our heart.
In fact in Galations 5 we read
[1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love
Oops
Looks like TWI got it wrong again
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allan w.
I think shes' already married, dildo, er..sorry...sudo
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outofdafog
Funny, they don't practice what they preach. In TWI today, you have to be righteous in their eyes to be allowed to participate. This is done by repetitive, mind numbing, works of the flesh.
By the time we were booted, they were down to recording what my 10 year old was depositing in the way of change into the horn of plenty. Her name and how much all sent to HQ on the old blue form.
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allan w.
Wasn't at a loss for words Oaks, just don't see the point in getting into a 'bitchsnitchin' comp with someone who obviously has injected themselves in the head with their anaesthetic needle once too often !
If Mo thinks I'm getting too personal towards her or 'attacking' her I'm sure she will let me know, criticizing someones beliefs( especially if just about every post of theirs mentions their church )is not a personal attack, geesh, I thought some of you would know that by now.
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allan w.
Addendum: I also have stated before that I have way much more respect for Mo than many others because of how she still holds to her Christian tenets of belief and actively carries it out. I look forward to one day catching up (unless we're in differn't heavens of course !!) with Mo and others who are of Christs church.
Many 'unbelievers' are wonderful people, but that's ALL they are..wonderful people. One day they will be DEAD wonderful people, that's all.
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Tom Strange
not me... I'm going back to the mothership someday...
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Tom Strange
Sorry Belle... it is a license to sin! ...it was grace that was not a license to sin... I remember! :)
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ChasUFarley
Thank you - this thread needed that!
I love you!
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rascal
So according to Allan....*many unbelievers that are wonderfull people* will simply be dead, while heaven is filled with any a$$hole that slaps the lable *Christian* on themselves by the recitation of a few bible verses, no matter how viscious cruel and destructive they were to fellow believers in this life?
I dunno, I think that there has got to be a little more to the formula than that <_<
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JumpinJive
I hear ya, rascal. Not that I care all that much anymore, but I sure got tired of hearing unrepentant sinners blabber on about their righteous standing before God. Ahhh, repentance--one of those pesky little concepts that got pushed to the back of the bus in twi. Actually, that one may have even started there. Not good for marketing you know.
-JJ
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Oakspear
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templelady
I think it prudent to remember that people tend to espouse the belief system they believe in when discussing any topic--I mean you would hardly espouse a belief system you didn't believe in , Right!!??!?
I therefore expect that
TWI, and TWI offshoots will convey TWIish thoughts
Baptists, Baptist thoughts
Agnostics, Agnostic thoughts
Wicca, Wiccan thoughts
and I as the resident LDS, LDS thoughts
That said
I don't feel it incumbent for me to attack others for their belief systems, I "attack" what I disagree with but not the person or their religion --a subtle difference that is too often lost in the heat of discussion
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Suda
Oakspear, dmiller, and frank123lol,
I am glad to see your posts and how you try to handle dilimenas in a mature, logical manner. Others remind me of two middle schoolers circling and yelling insults and threats on the playground, hoping a brawl will break out so they can prove who really is the big bad boy.
A lady in distress is thankful and relieved when a man comes to her aid and comports himself like a knight in shining armour. His cool head, manner of speaking about the sailient issues, etc. can diffuse the situation by guiding all parties towards a win-win solution to the problem.
I fear her distress would only be heightened by hot heads trying to best one another with insults and throwing punches. Seems like a lose-lose-win outcome, with no solution to her problem.
But this is just mho.
Templelady, I do hope Allen has gotten the message to stop stalking you from thread to thread just so that he can throw a punch at your statements about LDS; it's just so juvenile and pointless, as everyone already knows how he feels. Looks like maybe you are just ignoring him, and letting his behavior be his problem, not yours. That seems like a winning outcome for you. Keep up the good work in your postings - they're interesting and thought provoking.
suda (who likes the Mormans and respects them as a successful religious group, as evidenced by the good fruit they produce).
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and Allan, if ya can't be that night in shining armour, at least try not to be the turd in the punch bowl... <_<
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oldiesman
Saul of Tarsus, anyone?
Was just speaking with a friend of mine who believes everyone is saved, regardless of what they believe, or even do, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
I haven't gone quite that far yet, but it is an interesting thought.
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rascal
I didn`t read where Saul raped and murdered after his conversion.
There is a definate lack of understanding of the spiritual walk in twi leaders/vpw dogma adherents ...as is evidenced by the fruit consistantly manifested.
God has told Christians how to recognise one another.... You can make all of the excuses you like as to why you think that we ought to ignore those instructions....that doesn`t make it a good idea.
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CM
Here is one of the main problems with TWI teachings.
They are simply unconscious in the presence of God.
:)
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Belle
I reckon that’s why most people want nothing to do with the God that condones, promotes and accepts that kind of behavior. Certainly not a God I would want to worship.
You're not the only one, Suda....you're not the only one..... :) Thank you.
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