ckmkeon, you would be wise to aprise yourself of Chris Geers evil actions and councels before YOU passed judgement on what Rum runner posted.
You are defending a man who committed very great evil to many. The insanity of this man is quite obvious to any who familiarise themselves with his actions. There are first hand accounts right here at greasespot.
To defend people without knowing how vile they have treated the believers is foolish.
Ckmkeon - being judgemental isn't the same as being observant.
we are to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
Judgemental refers to passing judgement and making someone "pay" as if there is an account that they have built up. The Greek word ( I'll look it up later) is very similiar to the concept of a record book that an accountant would keep. So. to be judgemental is to keep an account of one's wrongs - a leger, if you will.
An observation - or even an opinion - is not being judgemental. God never ever expects us to go into anything with our eyes closed and not thinking.
When Jesus said the Pharisees were like " their father - the father of lies (paraphrased)" he wasn't judging them - he was "calling a spade a spade."
So, if someone acts in an "insane" manner - it is fair to say that this person was insane. In this culture - most of us realize that we aren't talking about some true mental illness - but of illogical actions, even insane actions.
When Jesus said the Pharisees were like " their father - the father of lies (paraphrased)" he wasn't judging them - he was "calling a spade a spade."
So, if someone acts in an "insane" manner - it is fair to say that this person was insane. In this culture - most of us realize that we aren't talking about some true mental illness - but of illogical actions, even insane actions.
Ck -- with all due respect, weren't you born on November 7, 1986???
You were just 15 days old, when this happened.
We had a little more experience with the man than you did,
when this was going on ;)
You for some reason have gone after how old I am. With all due respect my dad is older than you he is 56 and my mother is 58 you are only 53. They have about 3 more years of experience than you. What do you think my parents were doing in Nov 1986, They were there during this whole thing. :)
It's about experience with the man, your age indicates that you had NO experience with the man that we are discussing.
A difference in age is irrelevant, what is relevant is experience with what we're talking about.
You may notice that I'm not weighing in with an opinion about what went on in the clergy meeting because I wasn't there
You telling us what you say that your parents said is second hand information. If either of your parents want to post here (for real this time), and tell us of their experiences, then that's their business.
Let's START with him at the podium visibly displaying a firearm.
That was an obvious way to prevent opposing viewpoints from being
presented.
BTW, the legal term for it is "brandishing", and it IS a crime.
Ya know, I was there. I do not remember Chris Geer "brandishing" a firearm at all. Where did this info come from? I was sitting toward the back, and was very attentive, but I do not remember him brandishing a firearm at all. But maybe I was blinded by spirits?
You for some reason have gone after how old I am. With all due respect my dad is older than you he is 56 and my mother is 58 you are only 53. They have about 3 more years of experience than you. What do you think my parents were doing in Nov 1986, They were there during this whole thing. :)
CK
Ck -- no sir -- you missed my point. I wasn't going *after you* at all because of your age.
I would never do that. Oak expressed it better than I did.
Let me try to re-state what I was trying to say.
What I meant was -- we were around then, and had first-hand experience with the man,
whereas your experience is from heresay (maybe your folks, maybe other people,
and maybe it isn't even heresay), if they were there, but it still is not 1st hand experience
(for you), like it was for those of us here who are making the supposed *accusations*.
Someone here (I think it was rascal) mentioned Jesus calling the Pharisees for what they were.
And it was mentioned that He wasn't being judgemental, but just calling a spade a spade.
That is what we are doing here -- calling the cards as we have seen them fall,
face up (current and past), on the table of life. Nothing more, nothing less. :)
Ya know, I was there. I do not remember Chris Geer "brandishing" a firearm at all. Where did this info come from? I was sitting toward the back, and was very attentive, but I do not remember him brandishing a firearm at all. But maybe I was blinded by spirits?
Were you there too Word Wolf?
JL, I think what is being referred to was CG wearing a handgun under his suit coat, which was open so that the gun was somewhat visible. I was not there, I'm just attempting to recall what has been said in the past by eyewitnesses.
The poster who called it "brandishing" was giving the legal dfinition of what he was doing : displaying a weapon for the purpose of intimidation, which is not necessarily waving the thing around, the image which the word "brandishing" evokes in my mind.
Hmmmm...I have been told by 3 different ex clergy (that attended), that Geer did pull out his gun and laid it on the podium...but again, that's second hand information...I wasn't there.
...In either case, it doesn't seem like it was an "ordinary" type of fellowship...There are people who claim that their lives were threatened because they walked out of that meeting...
...These were intense times...a lot of folks went off the deep end.
I suppose the biggest question that remains is WHY did the board of trustees allow this wacko to stand up and spew his venom? Who was he? Before you start mentioning his "credentials", keep in mind that this same bot sh it canned some pretty impressive leaders...showed them the door without a second thought...but Geer? They bow down to this clown...still a mystery to me.
Ck -- no sir -- you missed my point. I wasn't going *after you* at all because of your age.
I would never do that. Oak expressed it better than I did.
Let me try to re-state what I was trying to say.
What I meant was -- we were around then, and had first-hand experience with the man,
whereas your experience is from heresay (maybe your folks, maybe other people,
and maybe it isn't even heresay), if they were there, but it still is not 1st hand experience
(for you), like it was for those of us here who are making the supposed *accusations*.
Someone here (I think it was rascal) mentioned Jesus calling the Pharisees for what they were.
And it was mentioned that He wasn't being judgemental, but just calling a spade a spade.
That is what we are doing here -- calling the cards as we have seen them fall,
face up (current and past), on the table of life. Nothing more, nothing less. :)
Hope that makes a little more sense.
What I meant was -- we were around then, and had first-hand experience with the man,
whereas your experience is from heresay
So lets see if I can get this straight you guys all have 1st hand experience from 1986. 20 years ago you had first hand experience. Well while you guys go after each person one by one, I will use ICOR 13:5 Thinketh no evil, I will think the very best of Rev. Geer. I will think the very best of you and everybody on this thread. Rev. Geer taught to the best of his ability. I will defend Rev. Geer and VPW till my fingers turn to bone. They are both men of God that have or is doing God's will.
I suppose the biggest question that remains is WHY did the board of trustees allow this wacko to stand up and spew his venom? Who was he? Before you start mentioning his "credentials", keep in mind that this same bot sh it canned some pretty impressive leaders...showed them the door without a second thought...but Geer? They bow down to this clown...still a mystery to me.
That's my question to Groucho. Geer was a frickin bus driver. What was up with that? What did he ever contribute to "the ministry?" Besides pimping? And making himself out to be some kind of all knowing guru to the guru?
Maybe his talent was listening to VP gripe and complain. about the people HE PUT IN CHARGE.
So -- by this do you mean that they were clergy in attendance at the meeting,
or just a part of twi at the time??
Now it's MY turn to not follow what is being said.
They were part of the TWI at that time.
CK
That's my question to Groucho. Geer was a frickin bus driver. What was up with that? What did he ever contribute to "the ministry?" Besides pimping? And making himself out to be some kind of all knowing guru to the guru?
Maybe his talent was listening to VP gripe and complain. about the people HE PUT IN CHARGE.
Sheesh, talk about dysfunction.......
Well since you know he pimped I suppose that means you used his service. Or is that just more second hand info.
Actually ck...Chris Geer DID pimp for Veepee...many, many times....the number of eye witnesses, victims, and first hand accounts...are well established. Credibility lends itself to the vastness of these testimonies...otherwise, how could you ever believe anything outside of your own first hand experiences...
...I did have personal, firsthand experiences...I saw this guy leading young girls off to Wierwille's motorcoach...you can believe what you like, but Geer was a bus driving pimp...I was there.
JL, I think what is being referred to was CG wearing a handgun under his suit coat, which was open so that the gun was somewhat visible. I was not there, I'm just attempting to recall what has been said in the past by eyewitnesses.
The poster who called it "brandishing" was giving the legal dfinition of what he was doing : displaying a weapon for the purpose of intimidation, which is not necessarily waving the thing around, the image which the word "brandishing" evokes in my mind.
Hmmmm...I have been told by 3 different ex clergy (that attended), that Geer did pull out his gun and laid it on the podium...but again, that's second hand information...I wasn't there.
...In either case, it doesn't seem like it was an "ordinary" type of fellowship...There are people who claim that their lives were threatened because they walked out of that meeting...
...These were intense times...a lot of folks went off the deep end.
I suppose the biggest question that remains is WHY did the board of trustees allow this wacko to stand up and spew his venom? Who was he? Before you start mentioning his "credentials", keep in mind that this same bot sh it canned some pretty impressive leaders...showed them the door without a second thought...but Geer? They bow down to this clown...still a mystery to me.
CK, you go ahead and defend CG all you want. I've known him since high school, he was my limb leader and I went through the corps with him. He is a venomous hissing snake - yes - I've actually seen him hiss at someone. His nastiness, his sadism - its been discussed by many eyewitnesses, you may want to do a search here on your beloved CG.
He's a paranoid nutcase, selling classes and making money off them to the suckers dumb enough to buy them. He's more legalistic than the taliban.
I have a feeling you're a young, idealistic person, just like we were once, who couldn't believe TWI's "men of God" would do something so wrong.
At your age, I really don't expect you to understand, you'll find out for yourself - eventually. Life is not all black and white. Get back to us when you've experienced life a bit and hit 30.
Why did he have so much power? He was truly VP's best friend - birds of a feather - no one else, even HA I think, came close to being on the same wavelength with VP as CG. Two nasty men who found each other.
One who finds customers for a prostitute; a procurer.
intr.v. pimped, pimp·ing, pimps
To serve as a procurer of prostitutes.
I think pimp is the wrong word there. The girls were not prostitutes. He was worse than a pimp. What means or drugs he used to procure these women ... I don't know.
And unless CG was in fear for his life ... carrying a gun up there is incredibly crazy, for lack of a better word. The local police should have hauled him away. (not sure on the law actually, could it be shown it was for intimidation?)
On why the trustees even allowed him a platform ... I'm guessing this deal of him going away to Europe with some booty must have been arranged in advance. Or maybe he lied about what he was going to say. Still, why did they follow thru on his orders for everyone to "relisten" to his message while he went home? Maybe he was holding some other information over them as blackmail ... who knows?
I do recall eyewitnesses stating that he visibly took the gun out and put it on display for all to see. I think it was John Linder or someone who also had a gun.
Wish I could find that "The Night that Will Live in Infamy" thread Radar started.... <_< I've been through a few CD's, but I have quite a few years of info to go through.
CK, you must see how foolish it is to decide that your impressions of two men whom you have NEVER met ... to imagine that your 2nd/3rd hand opinions actually hold more credibility than so many many of the first hand eye witness accounts of people here.
Tell me.....God`s honest truth.....Did your parents ever ACTUALLY have any personal dealings with these people? Or are they like you basing their opinions on the public persona that twi presented to the world?
It boils down to one of two things...
Either your parents are completely ignorant....decieved regarding the truth in this situation, or they are complicit in the evil practiced by these two individuals...
Being ignorant is understandible, we all were at one time ....remaining so in the face of so much information and evidence is shamefull...
Keep this in mind CK, you personally are defending evil...you personally are promoting a man`s doctrines, one who practiced great evil...another who still is very evil...even if it is with the best of intentions....you personally CKMKEON, are guilty of participating in the support of folks who destroyed not just one...but many vulnerable young lives....some when even younger than yourself.
In all honesty, the HONORABLE, the CHRISTIAN , the spiritually RESPONSIBLE thing to do, would be to make good and damned sure that THIS which you are promoting is Godly and will benefit people rather than enslave and harm....otherwise, you are just bringing in yet more victims for the consumption of evil :(
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dmiller
Ck -- with all due respect, weren't you born on November 7, 1986???
You were just 15 days old, when this happened.
We had a little more experience with the man than you did,
when this was going on ;)
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rascal
ckmkeon, you would be wise to aprise yourself of Chris Geers evil actions and councels before YOU passed judgement on what Rum runner posted.
You are defending a man who committed very great evil to many. The insanity of this man is quite obvious to any who familiarise themselves with his actions. There are first hand accounts right here at greasespot.
To defend people without knowing how vile they have treated the believers is foolish.
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doojable
Ckmkeon - being judgemental isn't the same as being observant.
we are to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
Judgemental refers to passing judgement and making someone "pay" as if there is an account that they have built up. The Greek word ( I'll look it up later) is very similiar to the concept of a record book that an accountant would keep. So. to be judgemental is to keep an account of one's wrongs - a leger, if you will.
An observation - or even an opinion - is not being judgemental. God never ever expects us to go into anything with our eyes closed and not thinking.
When Jesus said the Pharisees were like " their father - the father of lies (paraphrased)" he wasn't judging them - he was "calling a spade a spade."
So, if someone acts in an "insane" manner - it is fair to say that this person was insane. In this culture - most of us realize that we aren't talking about some true mental illness - but of illogical actions, even insane actions.
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dmiller
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Yeah, I remember looking at Geer's eyes...the expression on his face...no doubt about it, the guy was nuts.
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ckmkeon
You for some reason have gone after how old I am. With all due respect my dad is older than you he is 56 and my mother is 58 you are only 53. They have about 3 more years of experience than you. What do you think my parents were doing in Nov 1986, They were there during this whole thing. :)
CK
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Oakspear
It's about experience with the man, your age indicates that you had NO experience with the man that we are discussing.
A difference in age is irrelevant, what is relevant is experience with what we're talking about.
You may notice that I'm not weighing in with an opinion about what went on in the clergy meeting because I wasn't there
You telling us what you say that your parents said is second hand information. If either of your parents want to post here (for real this time), and tell us of their experiences, then that's their business.
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know, I was there. I do not remember Chris Geer "brandishing" a firearm at all. Where did this info come from? I was sitting toward the back, and was very attentive, but I do not remember him brandishing a firearm at all. But maybe I was blinded by spirits?
Were you there too Word Wolf?
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dmiller
Ck -- no sir -- you missed my point. I wasn't going *after you* at all because of your age.
I would never do that. Oak expressed it better than I did.
Let me try to re-state what I was trying to say.
What I meant was -- we were around then, and had first-hand experience with the man,
whereas your experience is from heresay (maybe your folks, maybe other people,
and maybe it isn't even heresay), if they were there, but it still is not 1st hand experience
(for you), like it was for those of us here who are making the supposed *accusations*.
Someone here (I think it was rascal) mentioned Jesus calling the Pharisees for what they were.
And it was mentioned that He wasn't being judgemental, but just calling a spade a spade.
That is what we are doing here -- calling the cards as we have seen them fall,
face up (current and past), on the table of life. Nothing more, nothing less. :)
Hope that makes a little more sense.
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dmiller
So -- by this do you mean that they were clergy in attendance at the meeting,
or just a part of twi at the time??
Now it's MY turn to not follow what is being said.
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Oakspear
The poster who called it "brandishing" was giving the legal dfinition of what he was doing : displaying a weapon for the purpose of intimidation, which is not necessarily waving the thing around, the image which the word "brandishing" evokes in my mind.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hmmmm...I have been told by 3 different ex clergy (that attended), that Geer did pull out his gun and laid it on the podium...but again, that's second hand information...I wasn't there.
...In either case, it doesn't seem like it was an "ordinary" type of fellowship...There are people who claim that their lives were threatened because they walked out of that meeting...
...These were intense times...a lot of folks went off the deep end.
I suppose the biggest question that remains is WHY did the board of trustees allow this wacko to stand up and spew his venom? Who was he? Before you start mentioning his "credentials", keep in mind that this same bot sh it canned some pretty impressive leaders...showed them the door without a second thought...but Geer? They bow down to this clown...still a mystery to me.
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ckmkeon
So lets see if I can get this straight you guys all have 1st hand experience from 1986. 20 years ago you had first hand experience. Well while you guys go after each person one by one, I will use ICOR 13:5 Thinketh no evil, I will think the very best of Rev. Geer. I will think the very best of you and everybody on this thread. Rev. Geer taught to the best of his ability. I will defend Rev. Geer and VPW till my fingers turn to bone. They are both men of God that have or is doing God's will.
CK
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ex10
That's my question to Groucho. Geer was a frickin bus driver. What was up with that? What did he ever contribute to "the ministry?" Besides pimping?
And making himself out to be some kind of all knowing guru to the guru?
Maybe his talent was listening to VP gripe and complain.
about the people HE PUT IN CHARGE.
Sheesh, talk about dysfunction.......
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ckmkeon
They were part of the TWI at that time.
CK
Well since you know he pimped I suppose that means you used his service. Or is that just more second hand info.
CK
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GrouchoMarxJr
Actually ck...Chris Geer DID pimp for Veepee...many, many times....the number of eye witnesses, victims, and first hand accounts...are well established. Credibility lends itself to the vastness of these testimonies...otherwise, how could you ever believe anything outside of your own first hand experiences...
...I did have personal, firsthand experiences...I saw this guy leading young girls off to Wierwille's motorcoach...you can believe what you like, but Geer was a bus driving pimp...I was there.
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WordWolf
Brandishing,
as defined in Section 924 © (4) of Title 18, US Code...
"..the term 'brandish' means, with respect to a firearm, to display all or part of the firearm,
or otherwise make the presence of the firearm known to another person,
in order to intimidate that person,
regardless of whether the firearm is directly visible to that person."
Eyewitnesses said-depending on the eyewitness-
that they saw cg either-and this may depend on the specific meeting as well as
their visibility from their location-
that he either wore a pistol visibly,
or (several said this) that he took out a pistol and placed it on the podium-
IIRC, that was BEFORE getting into his speech at all.
In other words, that was a tacit statement of "I have no intention of
brooking dissent. I have a loaded firearm here and am prepared to
use it to remain in control at this podium."
If you doubt that's not the EXACT meaning he intended to convey,
then pose the following hypothetical to someone you trust...
"A man steps forward, to address an organization's staff.
They have been told attendance at this meeting is mandatory.
Many suspect he will tell something they do not wish to hear.
He reaches the podium.
Before beginning, he takes out a pistol and places it on the podium.
Question 1: Did he intend to send a message to his audience
by placing a pistol on the podium?
Question 2: What message did he intend to convey to his audience
by placing a pistol on the podium (if he intended to convey one)?"
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Sunesis
CK, you go ahead and defend CG all you want. I've known him since high school, he was my limb leader and I went through the corps with him. He is a venomous hissing snake - yes - I've actually seen him hiss at someone. His nastiness, his sadism - its been discussed by many eyewitnesses, you may want to do a search here on your beloved CG.
He's a paranoid nutcase, selling classes and making money off them to the suckers dumb enough to buy them. He's more legalistic than the taliban.
I have a feeling you're a young, idealistic person, just like we were once, who couldn't believe TWI's "men of God" would do something so wrong.
At your age, I really don't expect you to understand, you'll find out for yourself - eventually. Life is not all black and white. Get back to us when you've experienced life a bit and hit 30.
Why did he have so much power? He was truly VP's best friend - birds of a feather - no one else, even HA I think, came close to being on the same wavelength with VP as CG. Two nasty men who found each other.
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rhino
pimp Pronunciation (pmp)
n.
One who finds customers for a prostitute; a procurer.
intr.v. pimped, pimp·ing, pimps
To serve as a procurer of prostitutes.
I think pimp is the wrong word there. The girls were not prostitutes. He was worse than a pimp. What means or drugs he used to procure these women ... I don't know.
And unless CG was in fear for his life ... carrying a gun up there is incredibly crazy, for lack of a better word. The local police should have hauled him away. (not sure on the law actually, could it be shown it was for intimidation?)
On why the trustees even allowed him a platform ... I'm guessing this deal of him going away to Europe with some booty must have been arranged in advance. Or maybe he lied about what he was going to say. Still, why did they follow thru on his orders for everyone to "relisten" to his message while he went home? Maybe he was holding some other information over them as blackmail ... who knows?
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Belle
I do recall eyewitnesses stating that he visibly took the gun out and put it on display for all to see. I think it was John Linder or someone who also had a gun.
Wish I could find that "The Night that Will Live in Infamy" thread Radar started.... <_< I've been through a few CD's, but I have quite a few years of info to go through.
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rascal
CK, you must see how foolish it is to decide that your impressions of two men whom you have NEVER met ... to imagine that your 2nd/3rd hand opinions actually hold more credibility than so many many of the first hand eye witness accounts of people here.
Tell me.....God`s honest truth.....Did your parents ever ACTUALLY have any personal dealings with these people? Or are they like you basing their opinions on the public persona that twi presented to the world?
It boils down to one of two things...
Either your parents are completely ignorant....decieved regarding the truth in this situation, or they are complicit in the evil practiced by these two individuals...
Being ignorant is understandible, we all were at one time ....remaining so in the face of so much information and evidence is shamefull...
Keep this in mind CK, you personally are defending evil...you personally are promoting a man`s doctrines, one who practiced great evil...another who still is very evil...even if it is with the best of intentions....you personally CKMKEON, are guilty of participating in the support of folks who destroyed not just one...but many vulnerable young lives....some when even younger than yourself.
In all honesty, the HONORABLE, the CHRISTIAN , the spiritually RESPONSIBLE thing to do, would be to make good and damned sure that THIS which you are promoting is Godly and will benefit people rather than enslave and harm....otherwise, you are just bringing in yet more victims for the consumption of evil :(
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Tom Strange
now Rascal... calm down there... practice your Jedi Knowles Breathing...
young ck has already told us that he believes what his parents have told him above all else...
I sure would like to hear from these "parents"... or do they really even exist?
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rascal
You right, my apologies Mr. Strange. I am editting now :(
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Tom Strange
If you wish... I just didn't want you to pop a vessel... there'd be green blood everywhere!
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