I dunno sprawled....Word wolf did a great thread a while back that covered a lot of the speculation on that ...Was it the way living and love book, or was it a thread particularly about vpw?
Or, perhaps it was a delusional/psychotic VPW hearing voices inside his own head. This is nothing new. Lots of psychiatrists make their living treating patients who exhibit the same phenomenon. Let's face it. People who hear audible voices that nobody else can hear are not all that uncommon. So, the question becomes, is it GOD talking to you? The Devil? Or brain chemistry gone awry? Hmmmmmm.....
If God did talk to Wierwille and tell him that he would "teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, if he would teach it to others", why did it take so long for God to keep his word?
The supposed promise took place in 1942, in 1951 he was ready to "chuck it all" because he wasn't getting any answers.
And......if God told vp that He would "teach him the word like it hadn't been known since the first century, if he would teach it to others"............why were so many of wierwille's "teachings" ALREADY being taught by other men's ministries?
Re:"...but what do you think? Did God speak audibly to VP?"
That depends on what you choose to believe when there is no proof for.. The Truth™. Do you think God Almighty spoke to Moses from a burning bush? That He made an foot speak to Baalam (or whatever his name was) and raised Cheesus from the dead? Then speaking to VPW wouldn't have been that big a deal would it?
I can't say whether or not God ever spoke to Mr. Wierwille - I wasn't there for the alleged event(s). Certainly, the more notable alleged event(s) are suspect.
I'll ask God. If he tells me, I'll let you know.
I don't believe Mr. Wierwille truthfully and faithfully followed up on God's will, either from the written bible or any "revelation" he may or may not have received. His life and reckless ministry are the testimony of that.
If he heard voices it was probaby his own as he was talking to himself out loud while digging for an identity that would distinguish from the rank-and-file denominational preacher. He concocted a personal myth (aka "a lie") to make his difficulties with mainstream denominations seem the result of his "advanced" desire and knowledge for "the word" when in reality he was simply too impatient and power-hungry to maintain a church in the conventional fashion. He needed a way to jump-start his bland preacher career into something else. The "gas on the snow pumps" story was his attempt at getting us to believe that God commissioned him for His work - which evidently involved buying his Ph.D. (a somewhat forgivable move were it not for the fact that we had to call him "Dr"), plagiarizing from others - mostly obscure works of others who probably wouldn't find out about it or were too forgiving to press the issue.
Every con artist needs a role and an identity and a schtik. VPW conjured his and stole his material from other people and blended in some 50s pop psychology and this combination worked very well with the last 60s crowd who were fed up with the religion of their mom and dad. I don't think VPW realized how succesful TWI would become. Unlike many , I don't think that there was a time when VPW was "innocnet" or "well meaning" except as it related to his own advancement. The fact that he did buy his Phd and ripoff others shows that he had a serious lack character and ethics which is bad for anyone but particularly so for someone who is a preacher and double especially so for someone who claims to have talked to God.
If VPW did in fact hear the voice of God it is interesting how at that point VPW STARTED doing unethical things (plagiarizing, lying, power plays in consolidating his power over Way West), AFTER his so called moment of epiphany. Most people , if and when they experience a moment like this, STOP doing bad things and clean up their lives. VPW became more flamboyant and outrageous in his claims and because it worked so well , perhaps he started believing his own BS at some point. I don't know but he wasn't a good man and he wanted the adulation and glory that he got in "abdundance" in the 70s. The fact that people hadn't caught didn't mean that it was okay. And it certainly doesn't mean it now.
Good answers! it just suddenly struck me, and i realized it was pretty fundamental to the whole thing. i certainly used to believe it--and figured sooner or later, God'd talk to me like that, too--but it's pretty clear that it was the Foundational Lie. so what do you call it when a guy with a lousy self-image also has an ego as big as the back forty?
oh, and sudo--what are you so wound up about? i don't need no confrontation, brutha! been there, ditched that. but yes, i do believe in santa claus!
Yes I believe that God did talk to VPW and he taught the word to the best of his ability. The Way had faults but through all of the problems VPW taught the word as well as he could.
thanks, belle. good stuff. good old fashioned THINKIN'!
as far as old vic teaching to the best of his ability, the only honest response i can give is that sometimes he really was a great teacher--a great communicator and persuader. and other times, LOTS of other times, he was sloppy and lazy in his teaching. (why not, after all? who was gonna call him on it?) and once he'd decided no one could teach HIM anything, he really ceased to be any kind of teacher at all.
quote: The snow storm in Tulsa that vee pee talked about has been proven to be a lie.
VP never said there was an actual snowstorm. He said he called the airport and the voice on the other end said there was a snowstorm. VP once said he thought it was an angel saying that for the purpose of keeping him there long enough to meet the guy who led him into tongues.
quote: The snow storm in Tulsa that vee pee talked about has been proven to be a lie.
VP never said there was an actual snowstorm. He said he called the airport and the voice on the other end said there was a snowstorm. VP once said he thought it was an angel saying that for the purpose of keeping him there long enough to meet the guy who led him into tongues.
Amazing you're going to try to defend this, but I'm game.
Here's what vpw HIMSELF said on the subject,
as recorded in "The Way:Living in Love", which was an in-house book
written to serve as a long ad as to how great twi was.
As we pick up the action, vpw's at that big meeting in Tulsa, and getting
ready to leave.
pg-198.
"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all
set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa.
All the planes were grounded, so I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were
all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!
Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night.
I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said
'No, this is the first time.' "
That was everything he said about that event in that book, except for
"But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway." (pg-199.)
So, was it supposed to be an ACTUAL snowstorm?
YES.
A "blizzard".
He called the airport.
He called the train depot.
He called the bus depot.
He called the airport AGAIN.
"THE CITY WAS SNOWBOUND. I JUST COULDN'T GET OUT!"
(That's 4 different people, in 3 different locations.)
According to vpw, the entire city was snowed in. Period.
Now, then, what was the reality of the event?
"Way Corps graduate Barries HIll later confirmed that the rally was
the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by
'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel
Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.)"
"The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees
[Fahrenheit], and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December
1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma' show only 5/10 an inch
of snow on December 8th and 6/10 an inch of snow on December 20.
NEITHER date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near
a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSES AND TRAINS."
So, Barries Hill found that the reality of the event did not match
vpw's account of the event.
"Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do NOT record
a snowstorm at that time."
Naturally, this woman-who previously had believed him COMPLETELY-
brought this to his attention.
It is at THIS time that the new levels of this story develop.
"When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by
suggesting that the blizzard was 'a phenomenon' or that he 'spoke with angels'
when he called the airport, train station and bus station.
Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him about the
weather rather than admit his fabrication."
Those of you who are new to this story can pick up a few details here:
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
6
9
6
6
Popular Days
Mar 20
15
Mar 16
12
Mar 17
11
Mar 18
8
Top Posters In This Topic
topoftheworld 6 posts
Belle 9 posts
Tom Strange 6 posts
sprawled out 6 posts
Popular Days
Mar 20 2006
15 posts
Mar 16 2006
12 posts
Mar 17 2006
11 posts
Mar 18 2006
8 posts
rascal
I dunno sprawled....Word wolf did a great thread a while back that covered a lot of the speculation on that ...Was it the way living and love book, or was it a thread particularly about vpw?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nolongerlurking
Or, perhaps it was a delusional/psychotic VPW hearing voices inside his own head. This is nothing new. Lots of psychiatrists make their living treating patients who exhibit the same phenomenon. Let's face it. People who hear audible voices that nobody else can hear are not all that uncommon. So, the question becomes, is it GOD talking to you? The Devil? Or brain chemistry gone awry? Hmmmmmm.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
The only thing God ever said to VP was "Knock it off!"
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nandon
i dont know
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
If God did talk to Wierwille and tell him that he would "teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, if he would teach it to others", why did it take so long for God to keep his word?
The supposed promise took place in 1942, in 1951 he was ready to "chuck it all" because he wasn't getting any answers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
And......if God told vp that He would "teach him the word like it hadn't been known since the first century, if he would teach it to others"............why were so many of wierwille's "teachings" ALREADY being taught by other men's ministries?
Men like BG Leonard, Kenyon, Bullinger, etc.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
topoftheworld
Maybe he misunderstood...what God really said was, "I'll teach you how to rearrange other people's Words like it hasn't been done."
There, see...makes more sense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
Sprawled Out,
Re:"...but what do you think? Did God speak audibly to VP?"
That depends on what you choose to believe when there is no proof for.. The Truth™. Do you think God Almighty spoke to Moses from a burning bush? That He made an foot speak to Baalam (or whatever his name was) and raised Cheesus from the dead? Then speaking to VPW wouldn't have been that big a deal would it?
So tell me, Sprawled Out... do *YOU* think these things happened?? I used to believe in Santy Claus, too but I grew up. But there are plenty of grown ups who believe fantastic things. Like if they blow themselves up for Jihad, Allah will give them 70 virgins in Paradise©. And man.. they really believe it don't they? Blowing themselves up for Muhammed. And folks ask if Jehova made it snow for 'ole VP?? Listen Sprawled Out and I'll tell you a truth that you can bank on.... You can get adult people to believe nonsense that the average 6 year old child would know was a lie. What was the name of those folks who all committed suicide in their dormitory bunks about 10 years back believing they were all going to be taken away on some space ship circling the earth?? Ahgh! I remember!!! The Heaven's Gate guys. All dead in their bunks. But they died *believing*, man. Gawd bless 'em... fools every one. <_ . so the question to you is... how big a fool do want be much nonsense will accept>
Link to comment
Share on other sites
topoftheworld
Hey, Sudo: chill. Newbie's just asking where the bs started-he's not saying he believe's it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
I think God speaks to all his children--but most of us aren't listening
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Did Gawd speak to Veepee?...
...lemme see now...God chooses an adulterous, drunken, lying, egomaniac who was fired from his church for illicit sexual affairs...
If you believe that Gawd spoke to Veepee Wiewille, I've got some swamp land in Louisianna that I would like to sell you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kevlar2000
I can't say whether or not God ever spoke to Mr. Wierwille - I wasn't there for the alleged event(s). Certainly, the more notable alleged event(s) are suspect.
I'll ask God. If he tells me, I'll let you know.
I don't believe Mr. Wierwille truthfully and faithfully followed up on God's will, either from the written bible or any "revelation" he may or may not have received. His life and reckless ministry are the testimony of that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
He didn't tell the truth about anything, including the things he allegedly wrote, why would he be telling the truth about that?
BTW, good answer, Mo.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
If he heard voices it was probaby his own as he was talking to himself out loud while digging for an identity that would distinguish from the rank-and-file denominational preacher. He concocted a personal myth (aka "a lie") to make his difficulties with mainstream denominations seem the result of his "advanced" desire and knowledge for "the word" when in reality he was simply too impatient and power-hungry to maintain a church in the conventional fashion. He needed a way to jump-start his bland preacher career into something else. The "gas on the snow pumps" story was his attempt at getting us to believe that God commissioned him for His work - which evidently involved buying his Ph.D. (a somewhat forgivable move were it not for the fact that we had to call him "Dr"), plagiarizing from others - mostly obscure works of others who probably wouldn't find out about it or were too forgiving to press the issue.
Every con artist needs a role and an identity and a schtik. VPW conjured his and stole his material from other people and blended in some 50s pop psychology and this combination worked very well with the last 60s crowd who were fed up with the religion of their mom and dad. I don't think VPW realized how succesful TWI would become. Unlike many , I don't think that there was a time when VPW was "innocnet" or "well meaning" except as it related to his own advancement. The fact that he did buy his Phd and ripoff others shows that he had a serious lack character and ethics which is bad for anyone but particularly so for someone who is a preacher and double especially so for someone who claims to have talked to God.
If VPW did in fact hear the voice of God it is interesting how at that point VPW STARTED doing unethical things (plagiarizing, lying, power plays in consolidating his power over Way West), AFTER his so called moment of epiphany. Most people , if and when they experience a moment like this, STOP doing bad things and clean up their lives. VPW became more flamboyant and outrageous in his claims and because it worked so well , perhaps he started believing his own BS at some point. I don't know but he wasn't a good man and he wanted the adulation and glory that he got in "abdundance" in the 70s. The fact that people hadn't caught didn't mean that it was okay. And it certainly doesn't mean it now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
What was once an absolute "yes" answer, has turned into "it's possible".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Doesn't WordWolf's thread show that the snow phenomenon was stolen? Something..... <_< I'm gonna have to go look, I can't remember.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
Good answers! it just suddenly struck me, and i realized it was pretty fundamental to the whole thing. i certainly used to believe it--and figured sooner or later, God'd talk to me like that, too--but it's pretty clear that it was the Foundational Lie. so what do you call it when a guy with a lousy self-image also has an ego as big as the back forty?
oh, and sudo--what are you so wound up about? i don't need no confrontation, brutha! been there, ditched that. but yes, i do believe in santa claus!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
Yes I believe that God did talk to VPW and he taught the word to the best of his ability. The Way had faults but through all of the problems VPW taught the word as well as he could.
CK
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Sprawled Out, here is a link to the 2nd page of WordWolf's thread where he has a great observation regarding the snow vision:
Word Wolf's Thread
The snow storm in Tulsa that vee pee talked about has been proven to be a lie.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
thanks, belle. good stuff. good old fashioned THINKIN'!
as far as old vic teaching to the best of his ability, the only honest response i can give is that sometimes he really was a great teacher--a great communicator and persuader. and other times, LOTS of other times, he was sloppy and lazy in his teaching. (why not, after all? who was gonna call him on it?) and once he'd decided no one could teach HIM anything, he really ceased to be any kind of teacher at all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
if God did talk to vp vp wasn't listining
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: The snow storm in Tulsa that vee pee talked about has been proven to be a lie.
VP never said there was an actual snowstorm. He said he called the airport and the voice on the other end said there was a snowstorm. VP once said he thought it was an angel saying that for the purpose of keeping him there long enough to meet the guy who led him into tongues.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Amazing you're going to try to defend this, but I'm game.
Here's what vpw HIMSELF said on the subject,
as recorded in "The Way:Living in Love", which was an in-house book
written to serve as a long ad as to how great twi was.
As we pick up the action, vpw's at that big meeting in Tulsa, and getting
ready to leave.
pg-198.
"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all
set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa.
All the planes were grounded, so I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were
all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!
Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night.
I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said
'No, this is the first time.' "
That was everything he said about that event in that book, except for
"But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway." (pg-199.)
So, was it supposed to be an ACTUAL snowstorm?
YES.
A "blizzard".
He called the airport.
He called the train depot.
He called the bus depot.
He called the airport AGAIN.
"THE CITY WAS SNOWBOUND. I JUST COULDN'T GET OUT!"
(That's 4 different people, in 3 different locations.)
According to vpw, the entire city was snowed in. Period.
Now, then, what was the reality of the event?
"Way Corps graduate Barries HIll later confirmed that the rally was
the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by
'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel
Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.)"
"The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees
[Fahrenheit], and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December
1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma' show only 5/10 an inch
of snow on December 8th and 6/10 an inch of snow on December 20.
NEITHER date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near
a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSES AND TRAINS."
So, Barries Hill found that the reality of the event did not match
vpw's account of the event.
"Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do NOT record
a snowstorm at that time."
Naturally, this woman-who previously had believed him COMPLETELY-
brought this to his attention.
It is at THIS time that the new levels of this story develop.
"When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by
suggesting that the blizzard was 'a phenomenon' or that he 'spoke with angels'
when he called the airport, train station and bus station.
Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him about the
weather rather than admit his fabrication."
Those of you who are new to this story can pick up a few details here:
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_itulsasnow.htm
Those of you who are curious might also want to know that MRS W's
account of this story (in Born Again to Serve mentions NOTHING
about a blizzard, planes, trains or buses being snowbound or REPORTED
to be snowbound. She mentions snow in Chicago (which has no effect
on the weather in Tulsa or New Knoxville, which are hundreds of miles
away from both) and that there was "sleet forcast in Tulsa by Thursday."
Now, they don't even delay buses, trains or planes for SLEET. You've
driven through SLEET. So, Mrs W does not support a claim of a blizzard
or of a REPORT of a blizzard, whether by human or angel.
So, in plain English, what was the deal about snow and Tulsa?
vpw later claimed that there was a blizzard that completely boxed him
in and forced him to stay at the convention (which was when he met Stiles),
which forced him to be on site for things.
Weather reports completely contradict his story.
When vpw is caught saying the opposite of the evidence, he suddenly
CHANGES his story, and claims that angels lied to him when he contacted
each location. Please note that-although this was YEARS after the event-
his accounts-which came in 1970-1971- NEVER even SUGGEST this,
despite the fact that any fool can look out a window and NOT see a blizzard
in the middle of a major city when there ISN'T one, and see people entering
and exiting a hotel in 60 degree weather when he SHOULD be seeing them
stamping snow off boots rather than wearing light jackets,
and, apparently, he never exited the hotel to go get lunch, even.
(Or he did and failed to notice that he was dressed for weather 40 degrees
colder than he was expecting.)
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
BTW,
vpw's OTHER snow story-the famous "snow on the pumps"-
has a few details you may find interesting.
A) It supposedly happened in 1942.
The earliest he could POSSIBLY have told anyone was 1970,
since Mrs W said that he FIRST told the story to the corps,
and there WERE none before 1970.
She said he kept it to himself and that he told no one.
That means-the day it happened-
he did NOT immediately tell his wife the moment he saw her.
That ALONE stretches credibility, to me.
If I was married and God spoke to me, I would tell the Mrs
the next time I saw her-pretty quick unless it was physically
impossible to tell her within a few seconds of seeing her.
B) The details seem to change-both of what he says and
what happens.
For example, the account he DOES tell Mrs W includes the
miraculous snow making the view look
"pitch-black, almost pitch-black".
Other accounts have it look like NORMAL snow.
Mind you, nobody I've polled has EVER seen a BLACK snowstorm.
Even blizzards and snow at nighttime in the countryside ALL
look WHITE.
Perhaps he tried telling the story with BLACK snow, and switched
to more conventional snow later. Perhaps later he switched to
black snow to make it more unusual.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.