" lied in part earlier. I said my mother didn't know to even look for something in a 4 year old. But when I was 5 she found me doing things a 5 year old shouldn't do to their bodies and she scolded me. Was that sufficient oversight? Please don't answer me because I know the answer "
Kathy, I suspect the answer is not what you think it is. I don't know if this information will be helpful to you or not, will bring some added peace to your perspective regarding your mom or not, but I hope it will help someone, if not you.
If you ask almost any pediatrician, they will tell you it is perfectly normal for children between the ages of roughly 4 - 8 to begin self exploration of their bodies in a sexual way (of course, they may or may not actually be aware of the concept of sex, but they understand what feels good). This self-exploration is not necessarily a sign of prior or ongoing sexual abuse. Then, usually around the age of 8 or 9, the children sort of "forget" about this exploration and move onto other things in life, until they hit puberty. I suspect, what actually occured is that because in your situation you had already experienced sex in a horrible and terrifying way, this exploration brought with it a lot of really bad feelings that would not otherwise have been there.
"But if he were dead because of his actions towards me alone I could not live with that. I don't know how to explain it better."
I would encourage you to consider terms like, “he was put to death because he violated an American child and that’s just not tolerated in America. Yes, I happen to BE that American child, but it’s not because it was ME, Chatt Y. Kathy. If he had done that to ANY American child, he’d still be as dead as he is now.” There's just no excuse for molesting American children. That would be my first attempt to help settle your heart. You deserve your heart to be at peace.
You are an American, a child of the greatest country in the world. Part of what makes us so great is how our children are our priority. Mess with one of OUR precious children and it’ll be the last thing you do. (I know this isn’t today’s reality, but it’s my hope for our children.. By the way, I understand that Michael Jackson has moved to a country where the laws against child molestation are not as strict as here in present day America.)
Just like it’s not your fault that your mom was raped, it’s the molester’s own actions that sealed his fate. In my fantasy society, it would be common knowledge that anyone who molests an American child would be put to death. So, as far as I can see, anyone who molested an American child would be asking to be put to death. Reminds me of the current “Suicide by Cop” epidemic in our society.
I also feel as you do about not ever having considered doing to another child what was done to you. I just can’t understand how these pedophiles can possibly see anything sexual in the body of a baby, a toddler, a youngster. I think that’s really good that we can’t. It’d be far more horrific if we DID see them as sexual beings. Maybe that’s where those urges start, I don’t know. I think the fact you don’t see them that way is proof that your mind wasn’t warped into one that could allow you to behave that way. That’s something to hold on to and be thankful for. It really could have been much worse.
I’m not able to watch movies where rapes occur. When I start to feel like that’s about to happen, I have to either leave the room or change the channel. I don’t see how anyone at all can see that as entertainment.
In my family we almost never have spoken of the molestation of our youth. We were forced to when we found our little brother last fall. I know that it was worse for me to hear of things he went through as a child that I was unaware of than it was for me to go through molestation and even rape myself. I have also had to deal with the guilt of not having protected him, my little brother.
A lot of the conversations we’ve had since last fall have been painful, but they seem to be helping pull off the layers of shame and disgust. I say this because even though it’s very difficult to speak of this subject, I find it worth it because of the healing it brings. Healing is so good.
Or perhaps it simply indicates that you have a heart. You certainly recognize the horrible wrong that he did, but you likely also recognize some good in him too (maybe "a lack of pure evil" could be substituted for "some good"). You seemingly reckon his wrongdoing to be worthy of judgment and punishment, but not worthy of execution. If so, that's a perfectly normal judgment on your part, and probably not indicative of feelings of guilt on your part for what he did to you as a child. Whatever feelings of guilt you may have if you contemplate his being executed for what he did to you are more likely indicative of the feelings of a normal, compassionate adult, who seemingly has risen above the rage she sometimes still feels and now views her past victimization from a fairly healthy perspective.
I can't imagine how hard it must be for you and others to discuss some of the things you do on these forums. It probably tears you up inside, but I suspect that it also has its benefits for you, which hopefully outweigh the renewed trauma. For what it's worth, I wish you all the best.
Before I read any further I had to stop and thank you for this post. Being a person with self worth issues (again that is no surprise to anyone that has read me) your words are incredibly touching.
" lied in part earlier. I said my mother didn't know to even look for something in a 4 year old. But when I was 5 she found me doing things a 5 year old shouldn't do to their bodies and she scolded me. Was that sufficient oversight? Please don't answer me because I know the answer "
Kathy, I suspect the answer is not what you think it is. I don't know if this information will be helpful to you or not, will bring some added peace to your perspective regarding your mom or not, but I hope it will help someone, if not you.
If you ask almost any pediatrician, they will tell you it is perfectly normal for children between the ages of roughly 4 - 8 to begin self exploration of their bodies in a sexual way (of course, they may or may not actually be aware of the concept of sex, but they understand what feels good). This self-exploration is not necessarily a sign of prior or ongoing sexual abuse. Then, usually around the age of 8 or 9, the children sort of "forget" about this exploration and move onto other things in life, until they hit puberty. I suspect, what actually occured is that because in your situation you had already experienced sex in a horrible and terrifying way, this exploration brought with it a lot of really bad feelings that would not otherwise have been there.
I am very thankful you said this Abi because it does take some pressure off of me thinking I failed to acknowledge her possible weakness. How bizarre that little circle was wasn't it!
Once the initial horror of the encounters became a lesser horror I began to enjoy it. I was guilt ridden to the point I can't describe, in fact to type these words is making me scream inside it was so freaking destructive this guilt I held.
"But if he were dead because of his actions towards me alone I could not live with that. I don't know how to explain it better."
I would encourage you to consider terms like, “he was put to death because he violated an American child and that’s just not tolerated in America. Yes, I happen to BE that American child, but it’s not because it was ME, Chatt Y. Kathy. If he had done that to ANY American child, he’d still be as dead as he is now.” There's just no excuse for molesting American children. That would be my first attempt to help settle your heart. You deserve your heart to be at peace.
You are an American, a child of the greatest country in the world. Part of what makes us so great is how our children are our priority. Mess with one of OUR precious children and it’ll be the last thing you do. (I know this isn’t today’s reality, but it’s my hope for our children.. By the way, I understand that Michael Jackson has moved to a country where the laws against child molestation are not as strict as here in present day America.)
Just like it’s not your fault that your mom was raped, it’s the molester’s own actions that sealed his fate. In my fantasy society, it would be common knowledge that anyone who molests an American child would be put to death. So, as far as I can see, anyone who molested an American child would be asking to be put to death. Reminds me of the current “Suicide by Cop” epidemic in our society.
I also feel as you do about not ever having considered doing to another child what was done to you. I just can’t understand how these pedophiles can possibly see anything sexual in the body of a baby, a toddler, a youngster. I think that’s really good that we can’t. It’d be far more horrific if we DID see them as sexual beings. Maybe that’s where those urges start, I don’t know. I think the fact you don’t see them that way is proof that your mind wasn’t warped into one that could allow you to behave that way. That’s something to hold on to and be thankful for. It really could have been much worse.
I’m not able to watch movies where rapes occur. When I start to feel like that’s about to happen, I have to either leave the room or change the channel. I don’t see how anyone at all can see that as entertainment.
In my family we almost never have spoken of the molestation of our youth. We were forced to when we found our little brother last fall. I know that it was worse for me to hear of things he went through as a child that I was unaware of than it was for me to go through molestation and even rape myself. I have also had to deal with the guilt of not having protected him, my little brother.
A lot of the conversations we’ve had since last fall have been painful, but they seem to be helping pull off the layers of shame and disgust. I say this because even though it’s very difficult to speak of this subject, I find it worth it because of the healing it brings. Healing is so good.
I know what you're saying about justice done for a child molester (not just me). But I can't kill him. And I will not say to you or anyone else you're wrong but I just can't kill him (well in theory since he is dead).
I agree how fortunate that we can't understand how a child could stir in you things that would make you want to take their innocence away so you could get your freaking rocks off! I mean there are countless ways of sexual release...WTF!!!!!
Rape scenes, yes.
I'm so thankful you have the opportunity to restore yourself as well your relationships with your brothers. How wonderful for your family as well.
I see where you imply redemption, but that is where I disagree with you. I think I read your post several times, and very carefully, before I posted it. Perhaps you weren't as clear about your post as you had thought. At any rate, I don't see where there is redemption for these people - or perhaps I WANT to see that there isn't any. They've sunk about as low as a human being can go. They are worse than animals. They should not be allowed three squares, security, and healthcare that most of us good, tax paying, citizens can not afford. I don't want to see them live.
You can't tell me that, as a parent, this doesn't hit close to home for you. You can tell Sudo and others they are foaming at the mouth, but what would you do or what would you want if it was your child or your kid sister or....? Would you want these people rehabilitated - redeemed, as you say - so they can go back into to society and perhaps do this again? Or perhaps not - how do you tell? By trial and error?!
Again, respectively, I think your writings about causing prevention at the level of the criminal - before the crime happens - is a pipe dream. To carry that logic through would say that once the crime was committed it was then the fault of society - problems with the program - rather than the person who committed the crime. The people who go forward with their unnatural lusts are never satisfied - it's never enough to titilate them - so they gradually become more perverted in their desire. With this mindset, they could never tell anyone what they're really into - they can't be honest - because they even despise themselves. In short, they have no control over wrong - over sin - and have no real redemption.
Kathy this thread isn't about just you. It's about you and Bow and the other women (and men) here that have disclosed such horrible things in their childhoods, and for those that haven't. Maybe more so for them.
One of my favorite activities is to watch people and the most fun is to watch kids at play. Don't they seem lost in some world of their own, just "being"?
What about a little kid that will sing aloud w/o any fear of who hears them or the one who will suddenly jump into a huge pile of leaves that an adult has just spent hour raking up? The little kid who will happily play in mud, knowing w/o ever having to think about it that his world is safe, that the grown ups do the big stuff like fix supper and probably will get him that new cool toy. They trust because it's natural for them.
This thread is also about those children that don't do that, for reasons only they would tell.
Thank you for that. I thought I'd been selfish in making it about me but I was lost in my world in that. Thank you for the hand that led me back out of wrong thinking of myself.
Maybe for me not having much of a life where I could run into the arms of a favorite uncle because try as I might they all were potential bad people so much more than I wish it had been. The regrets for loss of joy...I yearn till it feels as if fire is consuming my insides.
But I have still had great joy in my life. Sweet moments of life better than imagined. And today is very difficult for me yes. But it is also freeing for me and that means tomorrow will be better and the next day yet. Not void of pain or even fresh injury. But better because I would be better and everything can be done with more strength then.
Thank you for helping me not be selfish in thinking I had been selfish. Dang the circles around here are making me dizzy a little. heehee
"Once the initial horror of the encounters became a lesser horror I began to enjoy it. I was guilt ridden to the point I can't describe, in fact to type these words is making me scream inside it was so freaking destructive this guilt I held."
That, Kathy, is one of the greatest horrors of molestation, and it is the one that is the least spoken of. It needs to be talked about openly. I too was molested growing up. I was molested off and on from the time I was about 8 or 9 years old, until I was 14 and then again, while married to my ex. It started with my older brother and his friends. It went on to include the "gang" of boys that I lived near and went to school with. It finished when I divorced my ex, who was taught by TWI that he owned his wife's body. In many ways, my experiences were not nearly as horrifying as what those of you who were molsted by adults you trusted were. But there are similarities.
The fact is, the human body is designed to respond to certain stimulation. The fact is, it will. The fact is, the human mind is designed to do what it must to keep us going. So, when faced with a horrible situation where you have no control, what better way to gain some of it back than to allow what pleasure you can, that which your body was designed to feel, out of the experience.
Unfortunately, as you have pointed out, that too comes with a huge price... guilt. But you have nothig to feel guilty for. Your body and your mind did what it was designed to do and you survived the unspeakable. And now, here you are, speaking the unspeakable. Good for you, it needs to be said!
It's not JUST about you, but it is about you and so many others who've suffered those terrible things and it's not selfish to think that. I just want you to not feel like you are are being stared at. :blink:
Because you have the guts to speak out, because you have the guts to disclose your most private horrors, because you have the guts to honestly take a look at this..........that's why this thread is about you and them.
We talk in our society about people that are strong, bright, achievers. The ones that I think we should honor are those that are survivors of violence.
There are too many little girls and boys that feel they can't talk, can't tell, can't be loved.
I weep as I recall an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse that came to our Family Violence Class. She brought with her a 911 tape for us to listen to. The little girl was 6 years old, under her bed with her beloved kitten. Her daddy was beating her mommy. We could hear the violence going on in the background as this preciouse child begged the dispatcher to hurry up and take her kitten so daddy wouldn't hurt it.
It ended with the child saying so quietly that we had to strain to hear it "Daddy just killed Mommy"
The women standing in front of our class was that little girl. Her daddy had been beating mommy for her whole 6 years as well as violating her small body 'almost every night'.
She lives with mixed emotions of being glad daddy was going to jail.
Not a dry eye in the classroom as you can imagine. What it spoke to me was that survivors are the bravest people I know; especially children!
Another video showed an apartment unit that the neighbors walked by all day living their lives, whispering about knowing what goes on in there, the screams they hear from two children that lived behind those doors.
One witness spoke of having seen the bruises but also of the child saying to her "daddy hurts me down there too"
Noone did anything; neighbors just kept walking past the door, afraid. But not as much as the night they heard gunshots coming from that unit. The 13 year old boy had shot their father, killing him.
They all paid attention then.
I lived a life that was kind of Norman Rockwell-ish. Loving and fun, I didn't know such horrors existed. The only way my parents touched me was with love and rarely even a swat for discipline. I never thought about whether this was how everyone else lived or not. Until I was 17 years old.
A friend was gone for almost a week from school and we all wondered what was wrong with her. Finally she came back and the teachers seemed to be talking in hushed tones. She left again after a few days, and it was told us that she'd moved. One teacher had the balls to tell us that her father had been molesting her for years and she'd finally told someone.
I sat there shocked. Molesting? What the he!! was molesting? When I finally found a way to get the answer to that question, it changed the train on my track.
She told! I can't imagine the fear she had to muster in order to do that. This was also 1977, only a few years after the laws even considered this a crime. And certainly a long time before grownups decided to listen to these kids.
Her father served two years in some half way house, her mother divorced him. My friend went on to lose her two children to the system, and her life to the streets.
This thread is for you and those that lived this life as she did. For every child everywhere that lives with a monster or has to face the monster where he/she lives. For those that read here that still haven't told their story, maybe never will.
It's not JUST about you, but it is about you and so many others who've suffered those terrible things and it's not selfish to think that. I just want you to not feel like you are are being stared at. :blink:
Because you have the guts to speak out, because you have the guts to disclose your most private horrors, because you have the guts to honestly take a look at this..........that's why this thread is about you and them.
We talk in our society about people that are strong, bright, achievers. The ones that I think we should honor are those that are survivors of violence.
There are too many little girls and boys that feel they can't talk, can't tell, can't be loved.
This thread is for you and those that lived this life as she did. For every child everywhere that lives with a monster or has to face the monster where he/she lives. For those that read here that still haven't told their story, maybe never will.
You are not selfish, you are strong and brave.
I never would have spoken it. At first I was overcome with some form of shock. I recall wetting the bed that night and I never wet the bed. I had to have been naive about everything going on inside of me and I only had so much life I could pull from. And I couldn't reason at 4 like I can now. I felt like the whole world knew I let him do that scary thing to me and it must have been me that caused it because every time he got me safely alone with him and do what he did to me he'd get real scary before he got quiet and that scared me bad. I didn't know what was going on with HIS body, how could I! Man this is freaking hard even now because I find myself thinking oh no! what if I say something that will make them think less of me.
He told me I was special and I could make him feel good. And that was a good thing for him to feel good. Didn't I like to feel good he would ask me? He was tender and loving. All the things I wanted from my daddy but never felt.
He made plans in his respectable world that included me satisfying his sexual needs from age 4 until at 9 when I knew things were going to change seriously with what he would do to me and I found the courage to stop him. He was evil!
You feel different. In your head you aren't like everyone else. And tell me honestly those of you who have seen me or even my picture on the Nostalgia thread as a young mother, do you see something telling in my eyes? If they could tell you all that I know but I can't and you know that.
You can feel so alone while standing in a crowded room. I had nightmares for years of someone getting me while in the room full of people and no one would notice it. When no one can save you because you can't tell them you learn to figure out how to live the next day. I guess even at 4 I had enough something inside to be able to wake and live the next day not knowing if he would have to stop by because he recalled an errand and wouldn't it be nice if little Kathy went along. And oh yes my mother handing me over to him thinking how wonderful he cares for her when I know my husband struggles to even speak to her. My mother not knowing that as he smiled out the window at her his hand was already inside my panties. Evil son of a b1tch.
This took me longer than I will tell you, it would embarrass me. That's all I have right now.
This one I'll say now because I'm leaving for awhile and it is the only way I have the courage to do it.
For me it broke me becasue it made sexual release a burden because I am not normal in my needs as strange as that may sound. And that is that evil man's fault! And for that I would love to beat him till he can't stand up but he's freaking dead!
I'm leaving now and that is good because I can't come back and delete this text that way.
I would delete it now but it's been long enough I imagine it's been read some. I enjoyed my meal and hubby's company and thought I'd be brave and try a drink but I knew the last few times I'd tried it'd been a mistake. Still I wouldn't accept I couldn't have a drink so got my tequila in margarita form of course. It tasted wonderful but half way through I knew best to stop. By the time we had gotten in the car though I barely made it home to lose the tequila and also that wonderful meal.
That one was tough and still is and I don't really expect a reply. And some may find that was un-necessary for me to have said. And I would hope no one thought it was boasting of my appetite. But I needed you folks that are hanging in here with me to know it can also make you need sex, not just want and think about it but have the need of it be painful. That is not a good thing all the time, in fact it can make me crazy. I call that too much focus on myself. I don't need to be distracted by me. I mean that is almost insane isn't it? It's someone talking to you that is broken. I'm so much better than I was before. And even then I was able to live my life every day even when my heart had given up the will to stand. I've always been able to wake up and make it through the next day.
It can be something like what I feel that drives some of these people maybe. I'm trying to be as honest as I know how to be now, what the heck could I hide at this point.
I didn't tell you this to make me look sexy, gawd forbid I would try to do such a sick thing in a thread that I am bearing my heart in. I don't know what tomorrow will bring me. It is a day at a time and always has been. My life is not roses okay.
Kathy, we all carry our own private pack that noone sees; you're normal. (ew right?) :)
As human beings, we keep that stuff private for a multitude of reasons, set up by us alone. That's the 'rules' I guess. It's how we survive in society, it's how we manage to live every day as best we can and hope we get another shot at it again tomorrow.
Disclosure is a very painful thing, yet it's also part of the process. Some call it healing, some call it growth. When we spill out guts (sorry, no pun intended) about something in our lives, I choose to believe that we do so because it's time, we're ready and the results will be good ones.
I carried a very big secret, kept from my children and most that knew me. The worst people to keep it from was my children as it was part of who they are, where they come from; it was their business.
I finally spilled this to them, one child at a time, last summer. Each had their own reaction, but both thought me silly to have been afraid to tell them. 25 years of carrying a big ol lie and they didn't freak out after all.
You are loved here Kathy and please remember where you are. You reside here with a bunch of people that survived their own disclosures, their own personal hells. We get it, really we do.
What if from your stories, another is thinking and wondering if he or she should finally get a secret out, tell a story that might answer questions left for years? What if you offer another the strength to see that they, too, can see themselves as a survivor?
Life is full of wierdness, crossroads, bumps, big holes we fall in and are sure we'll never emerge alive. But it's also full of love and funny stuff and people that love and support us if we're looking in the right direction to see them waving at us, calling us forward.
You should tell as little or as much as YOU are able. If you never mention another word of this part of your life, that is just as ok as if you continue to uncover this part of you.
This part of it was almost too much for me. And it must have revealed itself because you posted and two people from this thread just emailed me their similar support and earlier one of you PM'd your support from silence for your own reasons.
We love you, too, Kathy. Thanks for being exactly who you are.
And Shell, you're sooooo right. We all have our baggage, whether we keep it tucked away or bring it out for examination. It's a personal choice, and neither is wrong.
Rather than summarize what was sufficiently clear, I'll ask you some questions.
Did I say anything about active pedophiles being told to "go and sin no more?" Anything about letting them off?
Did I say anything about consequences, punishment, retribution?
Did I say anything about "potential" (mostly undetected, innocent of any wrong-doing) pedophiles who may need serious help and support but are terrified of the likely consequences of being discovered?
Try to understand what I mean by "redemption" in this context. It doesn't mean a free pass. It means a chance for troubled individuals to redeem their future, before they do any harm.
It means the willing submission to strict guidelines, accountability, responsibility, and enforcement. In my mind it would require DNA testing and fingerprinting, possibly wearing an electronic ankle bracelet, letting authorities know where they are , regular visits with specialized couselors and physicians employed by law enforcement. It might mean voluntary medication or sterilization.
They would be in a program similar to one for paroled sex-offenders, but without the offense, and without the public record. Their compliance would make them far easier to catch if they ever did commit a crime, and therefore less likely they ever would.
Actual offenders who turned themselves in would be guaranteed not to receive the death penalty, and guaranteed not to be placed in general population where they would probably be killed. Whatever incentives they are given to surrender would have to be balanced with the necessity of punishement. Think of it as a kind of plea bargain. It gets them off the street.
The other side of the "safe harbor" offer is this - that punishment for anyone who rejects the program is that much more severe. I no longer believe the death penalty is a viable option in this country. I also believe a lifetime in prison, deprived of freedom and comfort, is a better punishment than our bizarre execution rituals, where the prisoner must not feel the least bit of pain but go softly to sleep.
The problem with prison is that it's too comfortable for a lot of them. I would change that too. Bring back chain gangs, maybe. Let's see the really bad ones petitioning the governor for the right to be executed - because they hate prison. When that day comes, we're back on the right track.
Chatty Kathy, do not doubt yourself girl. I cannot tell you how many posts that I have begun and erased on this thread.
I wanted to write about what my next door neighbor did when I was growing up....but chickened out for all of the reasons that you listed above.
The guy had a dog, I wanted a puppy more than anything in the world ... and I would go over there to play with theirs....I would have endured anything for the opportunity to play with that dog....
A little kid just has no frame of reference to understand that it is wrong. I knew that I didn`t like it, but just chalked it up as just one more wierd incomprehensible thing that grown ups did....like spankings and making you eat broccoli.
He never caused any pain, so I was very hesitant to even speak of this in the context of the horrific abuse that some of you guys endured.
Even so, I find it excrutiatingly embarrassing and shamefull to talk about. Add to that the time that I did mention it here in passing ...that I was labled *damaged* and a possible threat to myself and children <_< ...it makes it almost impossible to post without wondering if every word that you write will brand you as a lunatic in someone elses mind...
I suppose that I want to address my comments to the parents that are so busy that they have no time or energy for their kids...to the parents who cannot manage to communicate with their kids without screaming or critisism....to the parents that cannot manage to work up an interest in what is going on in their kiddoes life...these can make children so vulnerable to the seduction of a pedophile.
As a child, the neighbor and his wife took an interest in me, always spoke kindly, gave me an occasional gift...listened to my thoughts....treated me like a valuable individual...priceless to a child starved for affection and attention.
My mom too...never thought a thing about letting me go on day trips with these guys...
I do not think that I would have told on him even if I had known that it was wrong, because truth be known, in my young mind....they were a whole lot nicer to me than my parents were. I saw them as MY friends and I was fiercely loyal....
That is the incomprehensible part. I wonder now, just how many other children did he molest...did he bother my sisters...my friends? ...Sure it was just rubbing and touching with me...but did he go on to do worse to some other neglected innocent child?
It wasn`t untill I became sexually active that it all came back and it actually dawned on me what he had really been doing...and by then he had long moved away....I always wondered if I should have found out where he lived and warn the neighbors...and yet was terrified by the thought.
This is where the guilt and shame comes in....in my silence, I have condemned other children to the attentions of this pervert.
I also remember as I neared teenhood after years of enduring his attention, I went with them on a hike somewhere in the woods....I suddenly became very dizzy and collapsed....*Erik* started unbuttoning my pants....even then, it didn`t dawn on me that something wasn`t right....in my fog, I thought that was a wierd solution for being dizzy...
The wife suddenly was there while I was trying to push him away...and he quit....that was the last time that I was invited to go anywhere with them. Guess in hind sight, maybe I dodged a bullet...as maybe he was preparing to move things up a notch.
I often have wondered if he didn`t slip me something judging how quickly that he tried to undo my pants...I don`t know, it just seems like a wierd thing to do if you weren`t expecting someone to become disoriented...maybe he was just taking advantage of an opportunity...I guess that it doesn`t matter.
I guess that is why I am hyper vigilant with my kiddoes as well. They don`t go to their friends or even cousins houses to stay without me, because though I may trust the friends that I have known for years and my family members...I don`t trust their vigilance .....I don`t know their neighbors ...
People strike me as amazingly oblivious to the dangers that their kids face....my family has been especially ugly to me through the years for my over inflated sense of over protectivness wher my children are concerned.
I would also like to add to parents that evil sometimes can look very respectible. Pedophiles are good at making themselves attractive to children...it isn`t just about warning kids to be warey of strangers....but also in eliminating what makes a kid vulnerable... ie the time and attention, the feeling of being loved, of being special.
I hesitate to minimalise what some of you as children have endure....by even saying this .... but I have always felt like the reason that I was vulnerable as a child to that pedophile....or as a teenager to any man who made me feel needed...and when I was introduced to the ministry that made me feel *important* all revolved around a lack of self worth generated as a child.
I would like to try to make sure that any child ever in my sphere of influence feels respected, knows that they are treasured and important beings.
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Abigail
" lied in part earlier. I said my mother didn't know to even look for something in a 4 year old. But when I was 5 she found me doing things a 5 year old shouldn't do to their bodies and she scolded me. Was that sufficient oversight? Please don't answer me because I know the answer "
Kathy, I suspect the answer is not what you think it is. I don't know if this information will be helpful to you or not, will bring some added peace to your perspective regarding your mom or not, but I hope it will help someone, if not you.
If you ask almost any pediatrician, they will tell you it is perfectly normal for children between the ages of roughly 4 - 8 to begin self exploration of their bodies in a sexual way (of course, they may or may not actually be aware of the concept of sex, but they understand what feels good). This self-exploration is not necessarily a sign of prior or ongoing sexual abuse. Then, usually around the age of 8 or 9, the children sort of "forget" about this exploration and move onto other things in life, until they hit puberty. I suspect, what actually occured is that because in your situation you had already experienced sex in a horrible and terrifying way, this exploration brought with it a lot of really bad feelings that would not otherwise have been there.
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bowtwi
Chatty asked:
"But if he were dead because of his actions towards me alone I could not live with that. I don't know how to explain it better."
I would encourage you to consider terms like, “he was put to death because he violated an American child and that’s just not tolerated in America. Yes, I happen to BE that American child, but it’s not because it was ME, Chatt Y. Kathy. If he had done that to ANY American child, he’d still be as dead as he is now.” There's just no excuse for molesting American children. That would be my first attempt to help settle your heart. You deserve your heart to be at peace.
You are an American, a child of the greatest country in the world. Part of what makes us so great is how our children are our priority. Mess with one of OUR precious children and it’ll be the last thing you do. (I know this isn’t today’s reality, but it’s my hope for our children.. By the way, I understand that Michael Jackson has moved to a country where the laws against child molestation are not as strict as here in present day America.)
Just like it’s not your fault that your mom was raped, it’s the molester’s own actions that sealed his fate. In my fantasy society, it would be common knowledge that anyone who molests an American child would be put to death. So, as far as I can see, anyone who molested an American child would be asking to be put to death. Reminds me of the current “Suicide by Cop” epidemic in our society.
I also feel as you do about not ever having considered doing to another child what was done to you. I just can’t understand how these pedophiles can possibly see anything sexual in the body of a baby, a toddler, a youngster. I think that’s really good that we can’t. It’d be far more horrific if we DID see them as sexual beings. Maybe that’s where those urges start, I don’t know. I think the fact you don’t see them that way is proof that your mind wasn’t warped into one that could allow you to behave that way. That’s something to hold on to and be thankful for. It really could have been much worse.
I’m not able to watch movies where rapes occur. When I start to feel like that’s about to happen, I have to either leave the room or change the channel. I don’t see how anyone at all can see that as entertainment.
In my family we almost never have spoken of the molestation of our youth. We were forced to when we found our little brother last fall. I know that it was worse for me to hear of things he went through as a child that I was unaware of than it was for me to go through molestation and even rape myself. I have also had to deal with the guilt of not having protected him, my little brother.
A lot of the conversations we’ve had since last fall have been painful, but they seem to be helping pull off the layers of shame and disgust. I say this because even though it’s very difficult to speak of this subject, I find it worth it because of the healing it brings. Healing is so good.
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ChattyKathy
Before I read any further I had to stop and thank you for this post. Being a person with self worth issues (again that is no surprise to anyone that has read me) your words are incredibly touching.
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ChattyKathy
I am very thankful you said this Abi because it does take some pressure off of me thinking I failed to acknowledge her possible weakness. How bizarre that little circle was wasn't it!
Once the initial horror of the encounters became a lesser horror I began to enjoy it. I was guilt ridden to the point I can't describe, in fact to type these words is making me scream inside it was so freaking destructive this guilt I held.
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ChattyKathy
I know what you're saying about justice done for a child molester (not just me). But I can't kill him. And I will not say to you or anyone else you're wrong but I just can't kill him (well in theory since he is dead).
I agree how fortunate that we can't understand how a child could stir in you things that would make you want to take their innocence away so you could get your freaking rocks off! I mean there are countless ways of sexual release...WTF!!!!!
Rape scenes, yes.
I'm so thankful you have the opportunity to restore yourself as well your relationships with your brothers. How wonderful for your family as well.
(I do regret I made this thread about me)
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ChasUFarley
Satori -
I see where you imply redemption, but that is where I disagree with you. I think I read your post several times, and very carefully, before I posted it. Perhaps you weren't as clear about your post as you had thought. At any rate, I don't see where there is redemption for these people - or perhaps I WANT to see that there isn't any. They've sunk about as low as a human being can go. They are worse than animals. They should not be allowed three squares, security, and healthcare that most of us good, tax paying, citizens can not afford. I don't want to see them live.
You can't tell me that, as a parent, this doesn't hit close to home for you. You can tell Sudo and others they are foaming at the mouth, but what would you do or what would you want if it was your child or your kid sister or....? Would you want these people rehabilitated - redeemed, as you say - so they can go back into to society and perhaps do this again? Or perhaps not - how do you tell? By trial and error?!
Again, respectively, I think your writings about causing prevention at the level of the criminal - before the crime happens - is a pipe dream. To carry that logic through would say that once the crime was committed it was then the fault of society - problems with the program - rather than the person who committed the crime. The people who go forward with their unnatural lusts are never satisfied - it's never enough to titilate them - so they gradually become more perverted in their desire. With this mindset, they could never tell anyone what they're really into - they can't be honest - because they even despise themselves. In short, they have no control over wrong - over sin - and have no real redemption.
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Shellon
Kathy this thread isn't about just you. It's about you and Bow and the other women (and men) here that have disclosed such horrible things in their childhoods, and for those that haven't. Maybe more so for them.
One of my favorite activities is to watch people and the most fun is to watch kids at play. Don't they seem lost in some world of their own, just "being"?
What about a little kid that will sing aloud w/o any fear of who hears them or the one who will suddenly jump into a huge pile of leaves that an adult has just spent hour raking up? The little kid who will happily play in mud, knowing w/o ever having to think about it that his world is safe, that the grown ups do the big stuff like fix supper and probably will get him that new cool toy. They trust because it's natural for them.
This thread is also about those children that don't do that, for reasons only they would tell.
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ChattyKathy
Shell,
Thank you for that. I thought I'd been selfish in making it about me but I was lost in my world in that. Thank you for the hand that led me back out of wrong thinking of myself.
Maybe for me not having much of a life where I could run into the arms of a favorite uncle because try as I might they all were potential bad people so much more than I wish it had been. The regrets for loss of joy...I yearn till it feels as if fire is consuming my insides.
But I have still had great joy in my life. Sweet moments of life better than imagined. And today is very difficult for me yes. But it is also freeing for me and that means tomorrow will be better and the next day yet. Not void of pain or even fresh injury. But better because I would be better and everything can be done with more strength then.
Thank you for helping me not be selfish in thinking I had been selfish. Dang the circles around here are making me dizzy a little. heehee
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Abigail
"Once the initial horror of the encounters became a lesser horror I began to enjoy it. I was guilt ridden to the point I can't describe, in fact to type these words is making me scream inside it was so freaking destructive this guilt I held."
That, Kathy, is one of the greatest horrors of molestation, and it is the one that is the least spoken of. It needs to be talked about openly. I too was molested growing up. I was molested off and on from the time I was about 8 or 9 years old, until I was 14 and then again, while married to my ex. It started with my older brother and his friends. It went on to include the "gang" of boys that I lived near and went to school with. It finished when I divorced my ex, who was taught by TWI that he owned his wife's body. In many ways, my experiences were not nearly as horrifying as what those of you who were molsted by adults you trusted were. But there are similarities.
The fact is, the human body is designed to respond to certain stimulation. The fact is, it will. The fact is, the human mind is designed to do what it must to keep us going. So, when faced with a horrible situation where you have no control, what better way to gain some of it back than to allow what pleasure you can, that which your body was designed to feel, out of the experience.
Unfortunately, as you have pointed out, that too comes with a huge price... guilt. But you have nothig to feel guilty for. Your body and your mind did what it was designed to do and you survived the unspeakable. And now, here you are, speaking the unspeakable. Good for you, it needs to be said!
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ChattyKathy
Abi, thank you and if I could take your memories and what pain remains away I would.
So many of us lived through this h3ll. My gawd.
If I delay in reply I am cleaning my house. :(
(oops missed the l in lived)
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Shellon
It's not JUST about you, but it is about you and so many others who've suffered those terrible things and it's not selfish to think that. I just want you to not feel like you are are being stared at. :blink:
Because you have the guts to speak out, because you have the guts to disclose your most private horrors, because you have the guts to honestly take a look at this..........that's why this thread is about you and them.
We talk in our society about people that are strong, bright, achievers. The ones that I think we should honor are those that are survivors of violence.
There are too many little girls and boys that feel they can't talk, can't tell, can't be loved.
I weep as I recall an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse that came to our Family Violence Class. She brought with her a 911 tape for us to listen to. The little girl was 6 years old, under her bed with her beloved kitten. Her daddy was beating her mommy. We could hear the violence going on in the background as this preciouse child begged the dispatcher to hurry up and take her kitten so daddy wouldn't hurt it.
It ended with the child saying so quietly that we had to strain to hear it "Daddy just killed Mommy"
The women standing in front of our class was that little girl. Her daddy had been beating mommy for her whole 6 years as well as violating her small body 'almost every night'.
She lives with mixed emotions of being glad daddy was going to jail.
Not a dry eye in the classroom as you can imagine. What it spoke to me was that survivors are the bravest people I know; especially children!
Another video showed an apartment unit that the neighbors walked by all day living their lives, whispering about knowing what goes on in there, the screams they hear from two children that lived behind those doors.
One witness spoke of having seen the bruises but also of the child saying to her "daddy hurts me down there too"
Noone did anything; neighbors just kept walking past the door, afraid. But not as much as the night they heard gunshots coming from that unit. The 13 year old boy had shot their father, killing him.
They all paid attention then.
I lived a life that was kind of Norman Rockwell-ish. Loving and fun, I didn't know such horrors existed. The only way my parents touched me was with love and rarely even a swat for discipline. I never thought about whether this was how everyone else lived or not. Until I was 17 years old.
A friend was gone for almost a week from school and we all wondered what was wrong with her. Finally she came back and the teachers seemed to be talking in hushed tones. She left again after a few days, and it was told us that she'd moved. One teacher had the balls to tell us that her father had been molesting her for years and she'd finally told someone.
I sat there shocked. Molesting? What the he!! was molesting? When I finally found a way to get the answer to that question, it changed the train on my track.
She told! I can't imagine the fear she had to muster in order to do that. This was also 1977, only a few years after the laws even considered this a crime. And certainly a long time before grownups decided to listen to these kids.
Her father served two years in some half way house, her mother divorced him. My friend went on to lose her two children to the system, and her life to the streets.
This thread is for you and those that lived this life as she did. For every child everywhere that lives with a monster or has to face the monster where he/she lives. For those that read here that still haven't told their story, maybe never will.
You are not selfish, you are strong and brave.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
shell i also grw up like the rockwell life
this whole thing sickens me
may God bless the surivors and the children
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ChattyKathy
I never would have spoken it. At first I was overcome with some form of shock. I recall wetting the bed that night and I never wet the bed. I had to have been naive about everything going on inside of me and I only had so much life I could pull from. And I couldn't reason at 4 like I can now. I felt like the whole world knew I let him do that scary thing to me and it must have been me that caused it because every time he got me safely alone with him and do what he did to me he'd get real scary before he got quiet and that scared me bad. I didn't know what was going on with HIS body, how could I! Man this is freaking hard even now because I find myself thinking oh no! what if I say something that will make them think less of me.
He told me I was special and I could make him feel good. And that was a good thing for him to feel good. Didn't I like to feel good he would ask me? He was tender and loving. All the things I wanted from my daddy but never felt.
He made plans in his respectable world that included me satisfying his sexual needs from age 4 until at 9 when I knew things were going to change seriously with what he would do to me and I found the courage to stop him. He was evil!
You feel different. In your head you aren't like everyone else. And tell me honestly those of you who have seen me or even my picture on the Nostalgia thread as a young mother, do you see something telling in my eyes? If they could tell you all that I know but I can't and you know that.
You can feel so alone while standing in a crowded room. I had nightmares for years of someone getting me while in the room full of people and no one would notice it. When no one can save you because you can't tell them you learn to figure out how to live the next day. I guess even at 4 I had enough something inside to be able to wake and live the next day not knowing if he would have to stop by because he recalled an errand and wouldn't it be nice if little Kathy went along. And oh yes my mother handing me over to him thinking how wonderful he cares for her when I know my husband struggles to even speak to her. My mother not knowing that as he smiled out the window at her his hand was already inside my panties. Evil son of a b1tch.
This took me longer than I will tell you, it would embarrass me. That's all I have right now.
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ChattyKathy
This one I'll say now because I'm leaving for awhile and it is the only way I have the courage to do it.
For me it broke me becasue it made sexual release a burden because I am not normal in my needs as strange as that may sound. And that is that evil man's fault! And for that I would love to beat him till he can't stand up but he's freaking dead!
I'm leaving now and that is good because I can't come back and delete this text that way.
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ChattyKathy
I would delete it now but it's been long enough I imagine it's been read some. I enjoyed my meal and hubby's company and thought I'd be brave and try a drink but I knew the last few times I'd tried it'd been a mistake. Still I wouldn't accept I couldn't have a drink so got my tequila in margarita form of course. It tasted wonderful but half way through I knew best to stop. By the time we had gotten in the car though I barely made it home to lose the tequila and also that wonderful meal.
That one was tough and still is and I don't really expect a reply. And some may find that was un-necessary for me to have said. And I would hope no one thought it was boasting of my appetite. But I needed you folks that are hanging in here with me to know it can also make you need sex, not just want and think about it but have the need of it be painful. That is not a good thing all the time, in fact it can make me crazy. I call that too much focus on myself. I don't need to be distracted by me. I mean that is almost insane isn't it? It's someone talking to you that is broken. I'm so much better than I was before. And even then I was able to live my life every day even when my heart had given up the will to stand. I've always been able to wake up and make it through the next day.
It can be something like what I feel that drives some of these people maybe. I'm trying to be as honest as I know how to be now, what the heck could I hide at this point.
I didn't tell you this to make me look sexy, gawd forbid I would try to do such a sick thing in a thread that I am bearing my heart in. I don't know what tomorrow will bring me. It is a day at a time and always has been. My life is not roses okay.
I feel defensive and I put me there. I'm sorry.
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Shellon
Kathy, we all carry our own private pack that noone sees; you're normal. (ew right?) :)
As human beings, we keep that stuff private for a multitude of reasons, set up by us alone. That's the 'rules' I guess. It's how we survive in society, it's how we manage to live every day as best we can and hope we get another shot at it again tomorrow.
Disclosure is a very painful thing, yet it's also part of the process. Some call it healing, some call it growth. When we spill out guts (sorry, no pun intended) about something in our lives, I choose to believe that we do so because it's time, we're ready and the results will be good ones.
I carried a very big secret, kept from my children and most that knew me. The worst people to keep it from was my children as it was part of who they are, where they come from; it was their business.
I finally spilled this to them, one child at a time, last summer. Each had their own reaction, but both thought me silly to have been afraid to tell them. 25 years of carrying a big ol lie and they didn't freak out after all.
You are loved here Kathy and please remember where you are. You reside here with a bunch of people that survived their own disclosures, their own personal hells. We get it, really we do.
What if from your stories, another is thinking and wondering if he or she should finally get a secret out, tell a story that might answer questions left for years? What if you offer another the strength to see that they, too, can see themselves as a survivor?
Life is full of wierdness, crossroads, bumps, big holes we fall in and are sure we'll never emerge alive. But it's also full of love and funny stuff and people that love and support us if we're looking in the right direction to see them waving at us, calling us forward.
You should tell as little or as much as YOU are able. If you never mention another word of this part of your life, that is just as ok as if you continue to uncover this part of you.
It's you we love and respect.
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ChattyKathy
This part of it was almost too much for me. And it must have revealed itself because you posted and two people from this thread just emailed me their similar support and earlier one of you PM'd your support from silence for your own reasons.
I love you people.
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Shellon
:)
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Linda Z
We love you, too, Kathy. Thanks for being exactly who you are.
And Shell, you're sooooo right. We all have our baggage, whether we keep it tucked away or bring it out for examination. It's a personal choice, and neither is wrong.
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ChattyKathy
The value of interaction here has been beyond price for me. I never thought I'd ever tell all this in open.
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Shellon
Amen and Amen
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satori001
Chas, I wrote three brief posts on the topic.
Rather than summarize what was sufficiently clear, I'll ask you some questions.
Did I say anything about active pedophiles being told to "go and sin no more?" Anything about letting them off?
Did I say anything about consequences, punishment, retribution?
Did I say anything about "potential" (mostly undetected, innocent of any wrong-doing) pedophiles who may need serious help and support but are terrified of the likely consequences of being discovered?
Try to understand what I mean by "redemption" in this context. It doesn't mean a free pass. It means a chance for troubled individuals to redeem their future, before they do any harm.
It means the willing submission to strict guidelines, accountability, responsibility, and enforcement. In my mind it would require DNA testing and fingerprinting, possibly wearing an electronic ankle bracelet, letting authorities know where they are , regular visits with specialized couselors and physicians employed by law enforcement. It might mean voluntary medication or sterilization.
They would be in a program similar to one for paroled sex-offenders, but without the offense, and without the public record. Their compliance would make them far easier to catch if they ever did commit a crime, and therefore less likely they ever would.
Actual offenders who turned themselves in would be guaranteed not to receive the death penalty, and guaranteed not to be placed in general population where they would probably be killed. Whatever incentives they are given to surrender would have to be balanced with the necessity of punishement. Think of it as a kind of plea bargain. It gets them off the street.
The other side of the "safe harbor" offer is this - that punishment for anyone who rejects the program is that much more severe. I no longer believe the death penalty is a viable option in this country. I also believe a lifetime in prison, deprived of freedom and comfort, is a better punishment than our bizarre execution rituals, where the prisoner must not feel the least bit of pain but go softly to sleep.
The problem with prison is that it's too comfortable for a lot of them. I would change that too. Bring back chain gangs, maybe. Let's see the really bad ones petitioning the governor for the right to be executed - because they hate prison. When that day comes, we're back on the right track.
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ChattyKathy
Satori, you have some good ideas there and your last two paragraphs particularly.
However what can be done to the grandfathers and uncles? The ones that make up the vast majority of this evilness live regular lives amongst us.
I know the ones this thread is speaking of are known offenders and your post does relate to that directly.
But what of those never caught because they're never turned in, like my example where I NEVER told anyone while he was alive.
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rascal
Chatty Kathy, do not doubt yourself girl. I cannot tell you how many posts that I have begun and erased on this thread.
I wanted to write about what my next door neighbor did when I was growing up....but chickened out for all of the reasons that you listed above.
The guy had a dog, I wanted a puppy more than anything in the world ... and I would go over there to play with theirs....I would have endured anything for the opportunity to play with that dog....
A little kid just has no frame of reference to understand that it is wrong. I knew that I didn`t like it, but just chalked it up as just one more wierd incomprehensible thing that grown ups did....like spankings and making you eat broccoli.
He never caused any pain, so I was very hesitant to even speak of this in the context of the horrific abuse that some of you guys endured.
Even so, I find it excrutiatingly embarrassing and shamefull to talk about. Add to that the time that I did mention it here in passing ...that I was labled *damaged* and a possible threat to myself and children <_< ...it makes it almost impossible to post without wondering if every word that you write will brand you as a lunatic in someone elses mind...
I suppose that I want to address my comments to the parents that are so busy that they have no time or energy for their kids...to the parents who cannot manage to communicate with their kids without screaming or critisism....to the parents that cannot manage to work up an interest in what is going on in their kiddoes life...these can make children so vulnerable to the seduction of a pedophile.
As a child, the neighbor and his wife took an interest in me, always spoke kindly, gave me an occasional gift...listened to my thoughts....treated me like a valuable individual...priceless to a child starved for affection and attention.
My mom too...never thought a thing about letting me go on day trips with these guys...
I do not think that I would have told on him even if I had known that it was wrong, because truth be known, in my young mind....they were a whole lot nicer to me than my parents were. I saw them as MY friends and I was fiercely loyal....
That is the incomprehensible part. I wonder now, just how many other children did he molest...did he bother my sisters...my friends? ...Sure it was just rubbing and touching with me...but did he go on to do worse to some other neglected innocent child?
It wasn`t untill I became sexually active that it all came back and it actually dawned on me what he had really been doing...and by then he had long moved away....I always wondered if I should have found out where he lived and warn the neighbors...and yet was terrified by the thought.
This is where the guilt and shame comes in....in my silence, I have condemned other children to the attentions of this pervert.
I also remember as I neared teenhood after years of enduring his attention, I went with them on a hike somewhere in the woods....I suddenly became very dizzy and collapsed....*Erik* started unbuttoning my pants....even then, it didn`t dawn on me that something wasn`t right....in my fog, I thought that was a wierd solution for being dizzy...
The wife suddenly was there while I was trying to push him away...and he quit....that was the last time that I was invited to go anywhere with them. Guess in hind sight, maybe I dodged a bullet...as maybe he was preparing to move things up a notch.
I often have wondered if he didn`t slip me something judging how quickly that he tried to undo my pants...I don`t know, it just seems like a wierd thing to do if you weren`t expecting someone to become disoriented...maybe he was just taking advantage of an opportunity...I guess that it doesn`t matter.
I guess that is why I am hyper vigilant with my kiddoes as well. They don`t go to their friends or even cousins houses to stay without me, because though I may trust the friends that I have known for years and my family members...I don`t trust their vigilance .....I don`t know their neighbors ...
People strike me as amazingly oblivious to the dangers that their kids face....my family has been especially ugly to me through the years for my over inflated sense of over protectivness wher my children are concerned.
I would also like to add to parents that evil sometimes can look very respectible. Pedophiles are good at making themselves attractive to children...it isn`t just about warning kids to be warey of strangers....but also in eliminating what makes a kid vulnerable... ie the time and attention, the feeling of being loved, of being special.
I hesitate to minimalise what some of you as children have endure....by even saying this .... but I have always felt like the reason that I was vulnerable as a child to that pedophile....or as a teenager to any man who made me feel needed...and when I was introduced to the ministry that made me feel *important* all revolved around a lack of self worth generated as a child.
I would like to try to make sure that any child ever in my sphere of influence feels respected, knows that they are treasured and important beings.
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