It's fascinating. Pat Robertson makes a pronouncement that you don't agree with and he's a fruitcake. He makes an announcement, just as radical, that you do agree with and all of a sudden he's a prophet from Gawd. Amazing.
Who said Pat is a prophet of Gawd? Fruitcakes surely say some things that are at least partly correct at times.
I'm still muddling through some of the other stuff ... but the facts seem clearer all the time ... Islam has never been peaceful,
I am going to disagree with you here Rhino, Islam has as many sects as Christianity, and just like Christianity has sincere workaday people who just want to live their lives with some sort of spiritual meaning, others who are drawn into clergy or some more committed calling(both good and bad), some who are on the mystical fringes, other are activists of one flavor or another, and there are a few nutjobs who want to start wars (in both religions).
I know a handful of Muslims in each category ( as I know Christians in each category) There is a Sufi Retreat near me that has some of the most peaceful, literally won't hurt an insect, type of people that you have ever met. They spend most of their days in meditative practice and community service activity. It is similar to a Christian Monastery. I'm supposed to believe they're evil because Pat says so? I dont think so...
People bring an awful lot of their individual selves into their religions but i dont think that it is honest to condemn a billion people based on the self motivated actions of a few of the more radical elements within them.
Christianity has had its own share of wars but it is not necessarily evil in itself because the KKK, Aryan groups, or Pat Robertson are affiliated with it.
I know a handful of Muslims in each category ( as I know Christians in each category) There is a Sufi Retreat near me that has some of the most peaceful, literally won't hurt an insect, type of people that you have ever met .... I'm supposed to believe they're evil because Pat says so? I dont think so...
Pat is mostly irrelevant to me ... when I think of Islam, (and I shoulda been more specific) I think of the roots of the religion ... I'm sorta thinking the various sects that are actually peaceful should do more to seperate themselves from the more aggressive roots of their religion, and from the current actions in the name of Islam. Some sects do a little of this, but overall their silence is deafening.
People bring an awful lot of their individual selves into their religions but i dont think that it is honest to condemn a billion people based on the self motivated actions of a few of the more radical elements within them.
Christianity has had its own share of wars but it is not necessarily evil in itself because the KKK, Aryan groups, or Pat Robertson are affiliated with it.
I'm condemning the root doctine of aggression that Mohammed exemplified. I don't think the root doctrine of Christianity supported Hitler, and maybe not even the original intent of the crusades (which certainly was really hardly an organized army of Christian soldiers). Anyway, mostly I was responding to Tom's point about it starting with the crusades. That seems a bit of revisionist history that has become all too prevelant.
I'm maybe leaning more toward being a US Constitutionalist than a Christian. There does seem to be something about this largely Christian based country that functions better than many of the Islam based countries. The mostly muslim throngs that were burning cars around Paris are an indication that the problem is more widespread than most like to admit. Oil has enriched some of these areas, but it seems the culture is not keeping up. There needs to be some structure in which those billion good Muslims can quell the violence among their ranks. Some continue to hope the more moderate Muslims in Iran will overtake the radicals, but it ain't happenin'.
Or something like that ... it seems the freedom to live and invent brought great fruits to the "Christian world", while for whatever reason the "Golden Age" of science and learning in the Islamic world came to an end. I'll try to figure out the answer to all that by tomorrow. :) Also I'm just moving the discussion along ... it would be great to hear everyone's view.
True, a broken clock is right twice a day. I personally just have a hard time dealing with "Pat" pronouncing God's judgement on anything or anybody.
I think rhino's point was that Pat Robertson was right, in his opinion, in what he said. If this is supposed to be a thread on his presumed lunacy, then by all means bring in other examples if you think his line of peace is hypocritical. But I think his idea hits quite a chord with many people, given the violent reaction to the famous cartoons.
Perhaps the majority of muslims are peaceful; I don't now, so I certainly wont argue that they aren't. The problem is that they would then be a really forced "silent majority". The reaction to those cartoons is not the worst I could imagine. Can you imagne the reaction if a prominent muslim denounced...actively... the violent reaction to the cartoons and preached that the true way of their religion is a way of peace? Could a Martin Luther King...preaching the idea of peaceful protests and abhoring violence...come from the muslim religion? I am not denying that could happen; I really would like to hear such talk from peaceful muslims if there are so many, before judging it as a violent religion.
On another note, to Allen, is your information about Mohammed reliable, or is it just talk? Again, an honest question.
If this is supposed to be a thread on his presumed lunacy, then by all means bring in other examples if you think his line of peace is hypocritical. But I think his idea hits quite a chord with many people, given the violent reaction to the famous cartoons.
Or in other words, judging by the title of this thread, maybe you should have found a different quote to demonstrate it.
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rhino
Who said Pat is a prophet of Gawd? Fruitcakes surely say some things that are at least partly correct at times.
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mstar1
I am going to disagree with you here Rhino, Islam has as many sects as Christianity, and just like Christianity has sincere workaday people who just want to live their lives with some sort of spiritual meaning, others who are drawn into clergy or some more committed calling(both good and bad), some who are on the mystical fringes, other are activists of one flavor or another, and there are a few nutjobs who want to start wars (in both religions).
I know a handful of Muslims in each category ( as I know Christians in each category) There is a Sufi Retreat near me that has some of the most peaceful, literally won't hurt an insect, type of people that you have ever met. They spend most of their days in meditative practice and community service activity. It is similar to a Christian Monastery. I'm supposed to believe they're evil because Pat says so? I dont think so...
People bring an awful lot of their individual selves into their religions but i dont think that it is honest to condemn a billion people based on the self motivated actions of a few of the more radical elements within them.
Christianity has had its own share of wars but it is not necessarily evil in itself because the KKK, Aryan groups, or Pat Robertson are affiliated with it.
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markomalley
True, a broken clock is right twice a day. I personally just have a hard time dealing with "Pat" pronouncing God's judgement on anything or anybody.
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rhino
Pat is mostly irrelevant to me ... when I think of Islam, (and I shoulda been more specific) I think of the roots of the religion ... I'm sorta thinking the various sects that are actually peaceful should do more to seperate themselves from the more aggressive roots of their religion, and from the current actions in the name of Islam. Some sects do a little of this, but overall their silence is deafening.
I'm condemning the root doctine of aggression that Mohammed exemplified. I don't think the root doctrine of Christianity supported Hitler, and maybe not even the original intent of the crusades (which certainly was really hardly an organized army of Christian soldiers). Anyway, mostly I was responding to Tom's point about it starting with the crusades. That seems a bit of revisionist history that has become all too prevelant.I'm maybe leaning more toward being a US Constitutionalist than a Christian. There does seem to be something about this largely Christian based country that functions better than many of the Islam based countries. The mostly muslim throngs that were burning cars around Paris are an indication that the problem is more widespread than most like to admit. Oil has enriched some of these areas, but it seems the culture is not keeping up. There needs to be some structure in which those billion good Muslims can quell the violence among their ranks. Some continue to hope the more moderate Muslims in Iran will overtake the radicals, but it ain't happenin'.
Or something like that ... it seems the freedom to live and invent brought great fruits to the "Christian world", while for whatever reason the "Golden Age" of science and learning in the Islamic world came to an end. I'll try to figure out the answer to all that by tomorrow. :) Also I'm just moving the discussion along ... it would be great to hear everyone's view.
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Lifted Up
I think rhino's point was that Pat Robertson was right, in his opinion, in what he said. If this is supposed to be a thread on his presumed lunacy, then by all means bring in other examples if you think his line of peace is hypocritical. But I think his idea hits quite a chord with many people, given the violent reaction to the famous cartoons.
Perhaps the majority of muslims are peaceful; I don't now, so I certainly wont argue that they aren't. The problem is that they would then be a really forced "silent majority". The reaction to those cartoons is not the worst I could imagine. Can you imagne the reaction if a prominent muslim denounced...actively... the violent reaction to the cartoons and preached that the true way of their religion is a way of peace? Could a Martin Luther King...preaching the idea of peaceful protests and abhoring violence...come from the muslim religion? I am not denying that could happen; I really would like to hear such talk from peaceful muslims if there are so many, before judging it as a violent religion.
On another note, to Allen, is your information about Mohammed reliable, or is it just talk? Again, an honest question.
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Lifted Up
Or in other words, judging by the title of this thread, maybe you should have found a different quote to demonstrate it.
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