Are you SERIOUS dove? You never went in the corpes but presume to speak as to what we were told BEFORE entering the program in the promos and info sessions...in the meetings held in our states and at the roa for those interested ....concerning what the corpes program was .... and then get slammed after entering the program with the reality of the hoops being moved......the bait and switch tactics???
Good grief, you have no business assuming the voice of authority in this matter....you just weren`t there. You are completely ignorant of what happened after enrolling in the program....
I am telling you....there was NO information presented concerning this being an inviable, irrevocable oath/vow to God that was unbreakable under any circunstances.
Course I didn`t KNOW this either untill I failed to get the required classes during my 1st app year.
THAT is when the teeth come out....THAT is when you find out that you made a vow not to the ministry ...but to God Almighty.
THAT is when you find out the fate that awaits spiritual losers who fail to get it together....
It gets worse....
When I attempted to withdraw during my 2nd app year .... due to an unplanned pregnancy.....I dutifully sent a letter explaining my change of plans into the corpes coordinator...
THAT is when you recieve vitriolic letters from craig...the head of God`s ministry himself..... that threaten you with the consequences of breaking a commitment to God.
THAT is when you are accused of being a liar to God.......and are threatened with the consequences of lying.......Annanias and Saphira anybody?
THAT is when the teeth come out and the pressure is applied.
You then find out that simply dropping out isn`t an option....that your life and the life of the child is unimportant....GOD almighty requires you to honor the commitment you made no matter WHAT the cost....
You then find out that pregnancy is simply viewed as a distraction...a ploy from Satan to trick you out of honoring your vow....
You are horrified to find that it is assumed that you will abort the child in order to avoid allowing Satan to win in the spiritual battle.
It is then that it dawns on you that there is no honorable way to leave once you are committed... it IS for life....it is to God.....but twi is the one who speaks for him and makes the decisions.....
Most folks didn`t get to this point where craig had to pull out the big guns....they blythly entered the commitment assuming that they had some freedom, assuming that this was the best way to serve God...as they had been told.... in whatever endeavor one chose.... I think most folks didn`t see the ugly side of twi unless/untill they failed to produce :(
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry.
I know, I know, there is another line about a lifetime of Christian service. We've dealt with that already.
"...Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest and need"
That line just describes what was to happen after graduation.
"Where they serve depends on their desire, ability, and the concerns of the ministry."
So, ex10 and her hubby should have been able to go to school and hold Twig. That was their desire, and what they felt was necessary to increase their ability. They had no desire to run a branch or to give up college dreams.
This reminds me of the ancedote that was in the class which ends with the line,"God didn't tell you to tell me to go do... (that - whatever) He told YOU to go do it!" Remember in the teaching about Paul going to Jerusalem ( I think that was the one) the point is made that God will speak to YOU first, then and only if you are not listening will He have to tell someone else.
The problem was that twi didn't believe what they themselves taught. They changed that to say that they had to tell everyone what to do and what God wanted for their lives.
Soory you got derailed all those years ago, ex10. I'm glad that you left twi and got your lives on track. Glad that you're in Texas!!!!
there ARE orders where Christians make lifelong commitments to
go where they are told to go,
serve where they are told to serve,
and leave when they are told to leave.
Those are referred to by many names,
among them Holy Orders, the Priesthood, and so on.
Now, THOSE people don't just make ONE decision to enter
one program and now they're the property of the organization.
(No matter WHAT you were told.)
They receive training, and counseling.
They are questioned as to their commitment and reasoning.
They receive more training, and are REQUIRED to
meditate upon, and consider deeply, over and over,
the consequences of their decision.
There is alot of merit to a Christian structure that has pre-requisite training........then, hands-on application for a few years.......then, some counseling...... meditation..... reasoning..... more training..... seasoned consideration.
Also, in twi........add the buzz slogans, the vague terminology, the sexual predatory environment, the favortisms to one and not the other, the guilt entrapments, etc.........and there is NO level playing field.
Heck.........twi should have had a "JAG-counsel" to help with grievances and curb criminal behavior from the "upper generals."
We all have regrets in life. I do feel alot of pity for those who spent years doing something they now regret as a waste of time, it is a bitter pill.
Pond/MJ: I don't want or need your pity... nor do others, I think...
...but once again you've proven you have no clue what you're talking about... just by comparing it to your experience in a "secular job"... yet you presume to make judgements about people's hearts and minds regarding this...
You then find out that simply dropping out isn`t an option....that your life and the life of the child is unimportant....GOD almighty requires you to honor the commitment you made no matter WHAT the cost....
You had a choice not to get pregnant, in the first place.
You had a choice not to get an abortion, in the second place.
You had a choice to drop out and go back at a later time, in the third place.
In the fourth place, God, and your brothers and sisters in Christ, would have forgiven you, had you dropped out.
I did not presume anything Rascal I read and listened to the same things you had access to. It's pretty simple the purpose of a brochure is to promote the program or service . When the bank says in their brochure the purpose of the bank is to offer free checking one can read and assume that since it is their bank they know what they are talking about. When one says A lifetime of Christian service. Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry. I also assume that they know what they were talking about as it was their program. No one said you could not have Christian service outside of the way. No one said that things did not change over time. Listen close The premise was put forth that the Corps program was some how a two or four year stint and after all this Way training then you were free to fly away and serve ice cream at dairy queen I guess, with out any service to the way. Now why would anyone waste time training people who would offer them no return on the time? To that preposterous idea I responded ,and only to that. The printed facts show that it was the intent of the Way to train leaders who upon completion would serve a lifetime.
It was those who assumed they knew the minds and "hearts" of twi that paid the highest costs. in many many ways. I did as well but when the cost was to high I made a judgement for my life. WE all did / do at some point.
The fact people thought twi was on some type of spiritual plane higher and mightier than reality itself WAS the bigest problem and I do know I trusted and I got hurt and others got hurt by my trusting.
It is a bitter pill. but excuse the reasoning away all we want the fact remains if a person wnated to go into the way corps by the mid 80's anyways It was sold as special and elite and powerful and people bought into the the idea, most knew it was what it was and they wanted it for their life.
then life changed, twi changed reality struck. but the program did not in its focus .
To assume any organization/job (any pledge or promise in life) will cater to an individual wishes is taking a risk, and sometimes you lose. It is and always has been a judgement call for the individual. Now did they help in making a"good choice" for YOUR life? no. Come on the focus of twi has always been and always will be twi. or it would not have suceeded in the manner it did. Most all of the folks I know that wanted to go into the corps KNEW that very very well.
Twi didnt change that much it what was important to them and the comminment , it was individuals who rocked the boat with discontentment in their own position in the organization, and of course twi had the focus of "group" as opposed to individual .
I judge myself worthy to be consdered Gods child instead of a slave to twi.
NONE of those were presented as an option oldies, it was as I related...non compliance of commitment = breaking a vow to God ...spiritual death to be followed by probable physical death...as in with a&s
I KNEW that I had messed up....I DID write a letter and attempt to withdraw from the corpes....
Your answere and opinion is uninformed and your assumptions ignorant of the facts in the case of failure to comply ... because simply and honestly.... YOU weren`t there...... YOU don`t know what was said what was written...and YOU don`t know what was threatened....or the irisistable pressure applied.
The ONLY people who ever saw this side of craig and twi were the ones who attempted to withdraw from the corpes committment.
I don`t know if it was always this way....but this is how they treated corpes in the mid 80s.
You base your premise and assumptions Dove, on your personal impressions on one of many changing publications through the years.
Not on actual experience.... you want to attempt to disavow other peoples personal experience here with your private impressions disregarding the personal testimony of several here who experienced first hand the change of defininition and the ever changing moving of hoops.
I honestly saw people go in and out of the corps program for YEARS!
no money.
child was ill. spouse was ill.
One family put their child in a group home because she/he had special needs and then left the corps when the kid got molested in the group home while they were away.
and they went back.
I do not know what it would be to commint to anything like that . I really do not but I saw it .
I saw people get divorced about going in or not.
people wanted the coprs status. bad. and yes people did compromise everything and anything to be a part of it.
but I got to tell ya I am glad I didnt and the only reason I did not is because of the pain and compromise I saw folks so "comminted" to twi doing to their life.
so do not tell me they didnt know the cost they did and wanted it still.
to have such a dream and such a drive to succeed and then have it be smoke and mirrors and nothing to write home about anymore is a bitter pill and a sad sad disappointment in life.
but if they continued in the game it would not be like that , they would still be in the game.. doing what they wanted to do for twi.
but then...
so the bottom line is those who went into the corps wanted something really bad, a lifetime of service to twi , and now they do not have that status or whatever they thought they were getting.
they do not even have a college degree.
man I am so sorry for those people.
it has very little to do with serving God those of us who didnt do all the compromise by going into the corps prgram also had the honor of "serving God" I just didnt want "more" when I saw the cost twi was asking.
I just dug out the tape set that was I believe required listening during your apprentice year at least the later Corps after it was done. The Heart of the Way Corps Tape 1 The Way Corps a Call To Serve- John Lynn He seems to think that at the end of the years of training it will be expected that you will serve in the Way in some leadership capacity. Boy I guess I need to call him and let him know that skyrider thinks he did not understand the program he was a coordinator of.
Ex-10 perhaps you can call your buddy John and he can settle this or maybe I will. Ask him if he thought that they were training leaders to serve in other ministries or not serve at all after graduation. In fact maybe we should just call all of the Corps Coordinators and poll them? Anybody want to bet how many would tell tell you that is what they thought . I'd guess they would be the one to know since obviously the printed material is all printed wrong.
Pond, that is why you don`t understand.... you didn`t actually sign up thinking that you would be required to give up child/spouse/ etc.
You only found out AFTERWARDS that you had made a vow to God.
You only found out AFTER applying that there was no bcaking out....if you DID ...they had all kinds of scripture describing why God required this of us and what would happen to those loved ones or ourselves if we broke that commitment.
It wasn`t about wanting corpes bad enough to do those things...it was about being terrified of the consequences that they threatened would befall should we back out of our promise to God.
Twi I could have said no to...leadership I could have said no to as well ....but God...I couldn`t bring myself to disobey....I was terrified of what trying to live without his hand of blessing and protection upon me.
Twi lied about what God required and what the consequences of not completeing the training.
Twi I could have said no to...leadership I could have said no to as well ....but God...I couldn`t bring myself to disobey....I was terrified of what trying to live without his hand of blessing and protection upon me.
"the consequences of not completeing the training."
It is just simply ludicrous for you to stress that God's hand of blessing and protection would leave someone if they dropped out of the corps.
It is utter nonsense and fiction.
Folks who dropped out got along fine, and were blessed.
Rascal, who do you think you are talking to? do you think we are morons?
You base your premise and assumptions Dove, on your personal impressions on one of many changing publications through the years.
Not on actual experience.... you want to attempt to disavow other peoples personal experience here with your private impressions disregarding the personal testimony of several here who experienced first hand the change of defininition and the ever changing moving of hoops.
Actually I based it on several and several audio clips starting in the 70s in which the words did change slightly but the message was consistant, but that's ok. You still refuse to read what I said I never disavowed anyone's stories. I never addressed hoops down the line. I never said the program turned out well.
I only spoke as to what the intent of the program was. Which is clearly outlined in the printed materials. Is is preposterous for anyone to think that they were not going to be serving after graduation for a life time.
I saw good people do horrid compromise, kids , marriages , school , family .
But Rascal I saw folks leave and go back alot and I mean alot.
most had no money and where not very successful in life in general.
I lived in an upper middle class to high income town and let me say those who had business that made alot of money, those who had careers and 6 figure incomes and 400, 00 dollar homes did not even consdier the "way corps" program.
they ran classes in their homes entertained clergy when they came to town but that type of service was not even metioned in "our " group.
twi wanted our income more than our sweat I think.
but I watched those who did try to fix their life with twi, we all did , while in twi, and sometimes I would sponor them , who do think paid for them to go in most of them where dirt poor and uneducated.
it was not presented to everyone as a needed part of belonging.
NO way. the pressure was applied within the individual, they wanted the status andneeded the approval and the safety fo belonging in the capacity the way corps program was sold to them.
by no means did all of us buy into the idea as worthy of God breathed or even worth the time of day.
it really seemed the peoplel most driven to get involved with that was the most needy of the group.. those the most lost in life looking for an anchor and a "home".
and they paid a heavy price to find out it was a lie.
Oldies, I am talking to the people who pass judgement on personal assumptions concerning events which they NEVER participated in or experienced....call them whatever you will.
I am talking to the people who ignore personal testimony and experience in favor of thier own pet theories based on those personal assumptions....call them what you will.
Dove, I dunno how you can decide what the *intent* of the program was, having never actually participated... assuming that the brochures presented to the public in order to entice participants during a particular time frame would be a factual presentation of the program.
You have heard personal testimony from participants here who participated....what they were told and what was then later expected......there by debunking the illusion about what was meant by a *life time* of Christian service.
You are simply spouting the propoganda that was fed to you....you have a choice to continue to believe the propoganda or hear the testimony of what was required of those who participated.
Needy? ..driven to find a home? How about simply wanting to be a Christian..Wanting to be a blessing to God and to people? How about wanting to be a force for GOOD in this world and mistakenly believing that by seeking to serve God...we could find the best way.
That deep desire to be a *good* person to be someone who made a difference in this world and in peoples lives...
THAT is what was extorted and betrayed.
Sometimes I feel like you judge some of us and our motives unfairly cynical and harshly, pond.
A lot of debate over something that seems obvious. Many seem more preoccupied with defending their statements.
Yes, the statement "lifetime of Christian service" was stated in the printed materials. But the extent of the commitment was grossly UNDERSTATED.
Marriage is a lifetime commitment. For most of us it is not exactly what we expected, and if we are truely committed "I didn't know it was going to be like THIS" is not a valid excuse for breaking that commitment. That said, a good minister or marriage counselor will try and underscore the extent of the commitment and make sure both parties are as clear as possible what they are committing to for LIFE. If they aren't then don't marry them.
I think the point here is that the LIFETIME commitment of the Corps is understated. There are already so few applicants. What if you coached them before hand and said, "Are you sure you want to do this?" "You will be expected to move roughly every 3 to 5, you will NEVER own your own home, you will remain loyal to the ministry no matter what. Are you SURE that's what you want to do?" To me that would be a more ethical approach, but you'd have even fewer people take the offer and it's hard to shrink beyond what it is now.
In reality if the Corps program is to survive the whole concept needs some re-thinking and the length of commitment is a key area to evaluate.
Rascal please do not make another thread about me and personal.
all im saying is not everyone had the need to go into the corps and felt it was the only way to be apart of what TWI offered .
those who did , I believe compromised a great deal, on that we agree.
the motive is one only they can know.
but it was not just to to "serve God" as those who did not join in the corps program where also SERVING GOD.
It was to find honor in the twi ranks.
yes there was a type of competitition on who is who in twi , common in any organziation with titles and position or education.
who bought into it and or how far was their own choice .
Some of us did not and never really felt the pressure to do so.
It was not the end of belonging to the way in fact I found those who stayed in a particular area raised the families , had business , paid taxes etc.. enjoyed life were the sweetest people I met., while in twi.
I just do not buy into the fact the people who went into the corps did not know what it meant how it was, I saw many many people go in and out repeatly.. way corps was SOLD as a means to SERVE God, often by way corpes people to those they felt should go into it,. those who "served" them well .
those who wanted to get involved ususaly had many friends involved or family members and by no means where they ignorant of the comminment.
in my town they(corps) were the most needy often asking people l to do this for them or that... and those who wanted to get into corps where the ones doing for them constantly.
how could they then plead ignorance on what it meant once involved?
Pond it IS about you when you state your assumptions concerning a program in which you never participated in and draw your conclusions concerning other peoples personal motivations about which you have no personal knowledge.
Your personal assumptions and judgement of peoples motivations are in direct contradiction to the experiences of people who DID actually participate in the program.
those who did , I believe compromised a great deal, on that we agree.
the motive is one only they can know.
but it was not just to to "serve God" as those who did not join in the corps program where also SERVING GOD.
It was to find honor in the twi ranks.
yes there was a type of competitition on who is who in twi , common in any organziation with titles and position or education.
pond,
I joined the corps because I wanted to serve God. I was young and had only been in twi one year. I didn't believe that it was impossible to serve God withouth going into the corps - I just believed that is what God wanted for ME.
I wans't looking for glory - I believed the whole "doulos" teaching and that to serve meant that I would be second or third or fourth in line.
I never expected to have to move every 3-5 years. I left before the whole "can't buy a house" doctrine rolled in - but that would have been a major red flag for me.
Heck i heard war stories that wives in this area were judged on whether or not they were godly women by whether or not they went and had French nails done every two -three weeks - that was from someone who lived through it!
Did a competition exist in the ranks - I think so - but not everyone bought into it. I didn't. (I'm sure that I wasn't the only one.) When I realized that I wasn't into that kind of competition - I just became happy to serve without titles. That was what made it so easy for me to leave the corps and twi when lcm's letter arrived.
in my town they(corps) were the most needy often asking people l to do this for them or that... and those who wanted to get into corps where the ones doing for them constantly.
They were needy because twi made it nearly impossible for them to live well. Further twi sent out mixed messages. Corps were servants - but they were to expect help from the people they were around.
So if they were the most needy - why would anyone want to join???? Crasy huh?
Pond it IS about you when you state your assumptions concerning a program in which you never participated in and draw your conclusions concerning other peoples personal motivations about which you have no personal knowledge.
Your personal assumptions and judgement of peoples motivations are in direct contradiction to the experiences of people who DID actually participate in the program.
Sorry its not a personal assumption when the people in charge are telling you what it is. It is a personal explanation a first hand account by the people in charge. By the way I never said I did not participate in the program I said I just came in through the backdoor so to speak and I was not the first or last to do that. I never said your expierences were not true only that the people in charge and the printed matter and the founder all seem to agree that -one more time. A lifetime of Christian service. Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry
The facts show that it was the intent of the Way to train leaders who upon completion would serve a lifetime.
A lifetime of Christian service. Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry
The facts show that it was the intent of the Way to train leaders who upon completion would serve a lifetime.
I was always told that my desire and ability came first. This was in Corps recruitment as well and during residence.
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rascal
Are you SERIOUS dove? You never went in the corpes but presume to speak as to what we were told BEFORE entering the program in the promos and info sessions...in the meetings held in our states and at the roa for those interested ....concerning what the corpes program was .... and then get slammed after entering the program with the reality of the hoops being moved......the bait and switch tactics???
Good grief, you have no business assuming the voice of authority in this matter....you just weren`t there. You are completely ignorant of what happened after enrolling in the program....
I am telling you....there was NO information presented concerning this being an inviable, irrevocable oath/vow to God that was unbreakable under any circunstances.
Course I didn`t KNOW this either untill I failed to get the required classes during my 1st app year.
THAT is when the teeth come out....THAT is when you find out that you made a vow not to the ministry ...but to God Almighty.
THAT is when you find out the fate that awaits spiritual losers who fail to get it together....
It gets worse....
When I attempted to withdraw during my 2nd app year .... due to an unplanned pregnancy.....I dutifully sent a letter explaining my change of plans into the corpes coordinator...
THAT is when you recieve vitriolic letters from craig...the head of God`s ministry himself..... that threaten you with the consequences of breaking a commitment to God.
THAT is when you are accused of being a liar to God.......and are threatened with the consequences of lying.......Annanias and Saphira anybody?
THAT is when the teeth come out and the pressure is applied.
You then find out that simply dropping out isn`t an option....that your life and the life of the child is unimportant....GOD almighty requires you to honor the commitment you made no matter WHAT the cost....
You then find out that pregnancy is simply viewed as a distraction...a ploy from Satan to trick you out of honoring your vow....
You are horrified to find that it is assumed that you will abort the child in order to avoid allowing Satan to win in the spiritual battle.
It is then that it dawns on you that there is no honorable way to leave once you are committed... it IS for life....it is to God.....but twi is the one who speaks for him and makes the decisions.....
Most folks didn`t get to this point where craig had to pull out the big guns....they blythly entered the commitment assuming that they had some freedom, assuming that this was the best way to serve God...as they had been told.... in whatever endeavor one chose.... I think most folks didn`t see the ugly side of twi unless/untill they failed to produce :(
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doojable
I know, I know, there is another line about a lifetime of Christian service. We've dealt with that already.
"...Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest and need"
That line just describes what was to happen after graduation.
"Where they serve depends on their desire, ability, and the concerns of the ministry."
So, ex10 and her hubby should have been able to go to school and hold Twig. That was their desire, and what they felt was necessary to increase their ability. They had no desire to run a branch or to give up college dreams.
This reminds me of the ancedote that was in the class which ends with the line,"God didn't tell you to tell me to go do... (that - whatever) He told YOU to go do it!" Remember in the teaching about Paul going to Jerusalem ( I think that was the one) the point is made that God will speak to YOU first, then and only if you are not listening will He have to tell someone else.
The problem was that twi didn't believe what they themselves taught. They changed that to say that they had to tell everyone what to do and what God wanted for their lives.
Soory you got derailed all those years ago, ex10. I'm glad that you left twi and got your lives on track. Glad that you're in Texas!!!!
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skyrider
There is alot of merit to a Christian structure that has pre-requisite training........then, hands-on application for a few years.......then, some counseling...... meditation..... reasoning..... more training..... seasoned consideration.
Also, in twi........add the buzz slogans, the vague terminology, the sexual predatory environment, the favortisms to one and not the other, the guilt entrapments, etc.........and there is NO level playing field.
Heck.........twi should have had a "JAG-counsel" to help with grievances and curb criminal behavior from the "upper generals."
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Tom Strange
Pond/MJ: I don't want or need your pity... nor do others, I think...
...but once again you've proven you have no clue what you're talking about... just by comparing it to your experience in a "secular job"... yet you presume to make judgements about people's hearts and minds regarding this...
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oldiesman
You had a choice not to get pregnant, in the first place.
You had a choice not to get an abortion, in the second place.
You had a choice to drop out and go back at a later time, in the third place.
In the fourth place, God, and your brothers and sisters in Christ, would have forgiven you, had you dropped out.
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WhiteDove
I did not presume anything Rascal I read and listened to the same things you had access to. It's pretty simple the purpose of a brochure is to promote the program or service . When the bank says in their brochure the purpose of the bank is to offer free checking one can read and assume that since it is their bank they know what they are talking about. When one says A lifetime of Christian service. Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry. I also assume that they know what they were talking about as it was their program. No one said you could not have Christian service outside of the way. No one said that things did not change over time. Listen close The premise was put forth that the Corps program was some how a two or four year stint and after all this Way training then you were free to fly away and serve ice cream at dairy queen I guess, with out any service to the way. Now why would anyone waste time training people who would offer them no return on the time? To that preposterous idea I responded ,and only to that. The printed facts show that it was the intent of the Way to train leaders who upon completion would serve a lifetime.
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pond
you bet I make judgements.
It was those who assumed they knew the minds and "hearts" of twi that paid the highest costs. in many many ways. I did as well but when the cost was to high I made a judgement for my life. WE all did / do at some point.
The fact people thought twi was on some type of spiritual plane higher and mightier than reality itself WAS the bigest problem and I do know I trusted and I got hurt and others got hurt by my trusting.
It is a bitter pill. but excuse the reasoning away all we want the fact remains if a person wnated to go into the way corps by the mid 80's anyways It was sold as special and elite and powerful and people bought into the the idea, most knew it was what it was and they wanted it for their life.
then life changed, twi changed reality struck. but the program did not in its focus .
To assume any organization/job (any pledge or promise in life) will cater to an individual wishes is taking a risk, and sometimes you lose. It is and always has been a judgement call for the individual. Now did they help in making a"good choice" for YOUR life? no. Come on the focus of twi has always been and always will be twi. or it would not have suceeded in the manner it did. Most all of the folks I know that wanted to go into the corps KNEW that very very well.
Twi didnt change that much it what was important to them and the comminment , it was individuals who rocked the boat with discontentment in their own position in the organization, and of course twi had the focus of "group" as opposed to individual .
I judge myself worthy to be consdered Gods child instead of a slave to twi.
that is exactly my point
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rascal
NONE of those were presented as an option oldies, it was as I related...non compliance of commitment = breaking a vow to God ...spiritual death to be followed by probable physical death...as in with a&s
I KNEW that I had messed up....I DID write a letter and attempt to withdraw from the corpes....
Your answere and opinion is uninformed and your assumptions ignorant of the facts in the case of failure to comply ... because simply and honestly.... YOU weren`t there...... YOU don`t know what was said what was written...and YOU don`t know what was threatened....or the irisistable pressure applied.
The ONLY people who ever saw this side of craig and twi were the ones who attempted to withdraw from the corpes committment.
I don`t know if it was always this way....but this is how they treated corpes in the mid 80s.
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rascal
You base your premise and assumptions Dove, on your personal impressions on one of many changing publications through the years.
Not on actual experience.... you want to attempt to disavow other peoples personal experience here with your private impressions disregarding the personal testimony of several here who experienced first hand the change of defininition and the ever changing moving of hoops.
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pond
I honestly saw people go in and out of the corps program for YEARS!
no money.
child was ill. spouse was ill.
One family put their child in a group home because she/he had special needs and then left the corps when the kid got molested in the group home while they were away.
and they went back.
I do not know what it would be to commint to anything like that . I really do not but I saw it .
I saw people get divorced about going in or not.
people wanted the coprs status. bad. and yes people did compromise everything and anything to be a part of it.
but I got to tell ya I am glad I didnt and the only reason I did not is because of the pain and compromise I saw folks so "comminted" to twi doing to their life.
so do not tell me they didnt know the cost they did and wanted it still.
to have such a dream and such a drive to succeed and then have it be smoke and mirrors and nothing to write home about anymore is a bitter pill and a sad sad disappointment in life.
but if they continued in the game it would not be like that , they would still be in the game.. doing what they wanted to do for twi.
but then...
so the bottom line is those who went into the corps wanted something really bad, a lifetime of service to twi , and now they do not have that status or whatever they thought they were getting.
they do not even have a college degree.
man I am so sorry for those people.
it has very little to do with serving God those of us who didnt do all the compromise by going into the corps prgram also had the honor of "serving God" I just didnt want "more" when I saw the cost twi was asking.
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WhiteDove
I just dug out the tape set that was I believe required listening during your apprentice year at least the later Corps after it was done. The Heart of the Way Corps Tape 1 The Way Corps a Call To Serve- John Lynn He seems to think that at the end of the years of training it will be expected that you will serve in the Way in some leadership capacity. Boy I guess I need to call him and let him know that skyrider thinks he did not understand the program he was a coordinator of.
Ex-10 perhaps you can call your buddy John and he can settle this or maybe I will. Ask him if he thought that they were training leaders to serve in other ministries or not serve at all after graduation. In fact maybe we should just call all of the Corps Coordinators and poll them? Anybody want to bet how many would tell tell you that is what they thought . I'd guess they would be the one to know since obviously the printed material is all printed wrong.
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rascal
Pond, that is why you don`t understand.... you didn`t actually sign up thinking that you would be required to give up child/spouse/ etc.
You only found out AFTERWARDS that you had made a vow to God.
You only found out AFTER applying that there was no bcaking out....if you DID ...they had all kinds of scripture describing why God required this of us and what would happen to those loved ones or ourselves if we broke that commitment.
It wasn`t about wanting corpes bad enough to do those things...it was about being terrified of the consequences that they threatened would befall should we back out of our promise to God.
Twi I could have said no to...leadership I could have said no to as well ....but God...I couldn`t bring myself to disobey....I was terrified of what trying to live without his hand of blessing and protection upon me.
Twi lied about what God required and what the consequences of not completeing the training.
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oldiesman
"the consequences of not completeing the training."
It is just simply ludicrous for you to stress that God's hand of blessing and protection would leave someone if they dropped out of the corps.
It is utter nonsense and fiction.
Folks who dropped out got along fine, and were blessed.
Rascal, who do you think you are talking to? do you think we are morons?
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WhiteDove
You base your premise and assumptions Dove, on your personal impressions on one of many changing publications through the years.
Not on actual experience.... you want to attempt to disavow other peoples personal experience here with your private impressions disregarding the personal testimony of several here who experienced first hand the change of defininition and the ever changing moving of hoops.
Actually I based it on several and several audio clips starting in the 70s in which the words did change slightly but the message was consistant, but that's ok. You still refuse to read what I said I never disavowed anyone's stories. I never addressed hoops down the line. I never said the program turned out well.
I only spoke as to what the intent of the program was. Which is clearly outlined in the printed materials. Is is preposterous for anyone to think that they were not going to be serving after graduation for a life time.
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pond
What yous say is very true Rascal.
I saw good people do horrid compromise, kids , marriages , school , family .
But Rascal I saw folks leave and go back alot and I mean alot.
most had no money and where not very successful in life in general.
I lived in an upper middle class to high income town and let me say those who had business that made alot of money, those who had careers and 6 figure incomes and 400, 00 dollar homes did not even consdier the "way corps" program.
they ran classes in their homes entertained clergy when they came to town but that type of service was not even metioned in "our " group.
twi wanted our income more than our sweat I think.
but I watched those who did try to fix their life with twi, we all did , while in twi, and sometimes I would sponor them , who do think paid for them to go in most of them where dirt poor and uneducated.
it was not presented to everyone as a needed part of belonging.
NO way. the pressure was applied within the individual, they wanted the status andneeded the approval and the safety fo belonging in the capacity the way corps program was sold to them.
by no means did all of us buy into the idea as worthy of God breathed or even worth the time of day.
it really seemed the peoplel most driven to get involved with that was the most needy of the group.. those the most lost in life looking for an anchor and a "home".
and they paid a heavy price to find out it was a lie.
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rascal
Oldies, I am talking to the people who pass judgement on personal assumptions concerning events which they NEVER participated in or experienced....call them whatever you will.
I am talking to the people who ignore personal testimony and experience in favor of thier own pet theories based on those personal assumptions....call them what you will.
Dove, I dunno how you can decide what the *intent* of the program was, having never actually participated... assuming that the brochures presented to the public in order to entice participants during a particular time frame would be a factual presentation of the program.
You have heard personal testimony from participants here who participated....what they were told and what was then later expected......there by debunking the illusion about what was meant by a *life time* of Christian service.
You are simply spouting the propoganda that was fed to you....you have a choice to continue to believe the propoganda or hear the testimony of what was required of those who participated.
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rascal
Needy? ..driven to find a home? How about simply wanting to be a Christian..Wanting to be a blessing to God and to people? How about wanting to be a force for GOOD in this world and mistakenly believing that by seeking to serve God...we could find the best way.
That deep desire to be a *good* person to be someone who made a difference in this world and in peoples lives...
THAT is what was extorted and betrayed.
Sometimes I feel like you judge some of us and our motives unfairly cynical and harshly, pond.
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shortfuse
A lot of debate over something that seems obvious. Many seem more preoccupied with defending their statements.
Yes, the statement "lifetime of Christian service" was stated in the printed materials. But the extent of the commitment was grossly UNDERSTATED.
Marriage is a lifetime commitment. For most of us it is not exactly what we expected, and if we are truely committed "I didn't know it was going to be like THIS" is not a valid excuse for breaking that commitment. That said, a good minister or marriage counselor will try and underscore the extent of the commitment and make sure both parties are as clear as possible what they are committing to for LIFE. If they aren't then don't marry them.
I think the point here is that the LIFETIME commitment of the Corps is understated. There are already so few applicants. What if you coached them before hand and said, "Are you sure you want to do this?" "You will be expected to move roughly every 3 to 5, you will NEVER own your own home, you will remain loyal to the ministry no matter what. Are you SURE that's what you want to do?" To me that would be a more ethical approach, but you'd have even fewer people take the offer and it's hard to shrink beyond what it is now.
In reality if the Corps program is to survive the whole concept needs some re-thinking and the length of commitment is a key area to evaluate.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
ex you are right but you forgot one of the things we all invested...lots of cash
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pond
Rascal please do not make another thread about me and personal.
all im saying is not everyone had the need to go into the corps and felt it was the only way to be apart of what TWI offered .
those who did , I believe compromised a great deal, on that we agree.
the motive is one only they can know.
but it was not just to to "serve God" as those who did not join in the corps program where also SERVING GOD.
It was to find honor in the twi ranks.
yes there was a type of competitition on who is who in twi , common in any organziation with titles and position or education.
who bought into it and or how far was their own choice .
Some of us did not and never really felt the pressure to do so.
It was not the end of belonging to the way in fact I found those who stayed in a particular area raised the families , had business , paid taxes etc.. enjoyed life were the sweetest people I met., while in twi.
I just do not buy into the fact the people who went into the corps did not know what it meant how it was, I saw many many people go in and out repeatly.. way corps was SOLD as a means to SERVE God, often by way corpes people to those they felt should go into it,. those who "served" them well .
those who wanted to get involved ususaly had many friends involved or family members and by no means where they ignorant of the comminment.
in my town they(corps) were the most needy often asking people l to do this for them or that... and those who wanted to get into corps where the ones doing for them constantly.
how could they then plead ignorance on what it meant once involved?
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rascal
Pond it IS about you when you state your assumptions concerning a program in which you never participated in and draw your conclusions concerning other peoples personal motivations about which you have no personal knowledge.
Your personal assumptions and judgement of peoples motivations are in direct contradiction to the experiences of people who DID actually participate in the program.
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doojable
I joined the corps because I wanted to serve God. I was young and had only been in twi one year. I didn't believe that it was impossible to serve God withouth going into the corps - I just believed that is what God wanted for ME.
I wans't looking for glory - I believed the whole "doulos" teaching and that to serve meant that I would be second or third or fourth in line.
I never expected to have to move every 3-5 years. I left before the whole "can't buy a house" doctrine rolled in - but that would have been a major red flag for me.
Heck i heard war stories that wives in this area were judged on whether or not they were godly women by whether or not they went and had French nails done every two -three weeks - that was from someone who lived through it!
Did a competition exist in the ranks - I think so - but not everyone bought into it. I didn't. (I'm sure that I wasn't the only one.) When I realized that I wasn't into that kind of competition - I just became happy to serve without titles. That was what made it so easy for me to leave the corps and twi when lcm's letter arrived.
They were needy because twi made it nearly impossible for them to live well. Further twi sent out mixed messages. Corps were servants - but they were to expect help from the people they were around.
So if they were the most needy - why would anyone want to join???? Crasy huh?
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WhiteDove
Sorry its not a personal assumption when the people in charge are telling you what it is. It is a personal explanation a first hand account by the people in charge. By the way I never said I did not participate in the program I said I just came in through the backdoor so to speak and I was not the first or last to do that. I never said your expierences were not true only that the people in charge and the printed matter and the founder all seem to agree that -one more time. A lifetime of Christian service. Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry
The facts show that it was the intent of the Way to train leaders who upon completion would serve a lifetime.
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doojable
I was always told that my desire and ability came first. This was in Corps recruitment as well and during residence.
Why is this so hard????
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