Actually you are incorrect the brochure said what I printed only which is.
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry.
It is logical to assume that since it says WAY Corps they were talking about The Way Ministry when they printed this booklet for promotion of their program the Way Corps. Do know of another Way Corps? By the way straw man do you have any tangible evidence to prove your point? It is called supporting your claim. You seem content to misquote, add to ,and misrepresent what I can and have produced to support my claim yet I see nothing from you. Could there be a reason that is so? AAAAAH maybe there is none. Yeah I thought so!
Graduates of the Way Corps make up the heart of the leadership of The Way Ministry. The Way Corps is not a substitute for college. It is advanced training for specially selected men and women.
Actually you are incorrect the brochure said what I printed only which is.
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Okay......let's just look at this.
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve.......serve where??....in areas of concern, interest and need. Succinct. Simple. Vague.
Where they serve depends upon their desire.........THEIR desire.....(their) ability, and the needs of the ministry. First mentioned is THEIR DESIRE. Is it mentioned first, because THAT is the most important priority? Their ability is also an important quality. And, the needs of the ministry are included in the mix. Two of the three points make note of the INDIVIDUAL.
Thanks whitedove.................I can agree with twi's logic of the INDIVIDUAL'S DESIRE listed first.
That's the way I understood it when I signed on the line.
Nope it is three things they consider in making one choice in your lifetime of service. Each is not an end to itself just another part of the process in consideration. Thats right individual desire on how ,where you wanted to serve was considered but you still were expected to serve a lifetime which was after all the point in this thread. Glad you agree.
That was one of the points of this thread but not the only one. I am interested in, as I said, both what was printed and said (lifetime of Christian service) and what was implied and what people really thought it meant.
WD, your brochure is helpful, but I assume it is from only one year, maybe a few years. There was more than one brochure.
Like I said, when we went in we were thinking lifetime of Christian service....but perhaps as "twig" leaders or perhaps as branch or limb leaders. This is what my parents wanted to do. This was in the mid-80's though, people going in earlier may have had different experiences. As Sky pointed out, there have been a few changes over the years.
I do remember my P's being able to put in preferences for assignments but people didn't always get that. It did seem that people with kids, family corps, did usually get their preference and usually had longer assignments. My parent's first one lasted 8 yrs. I think it was a little different for the single corps, especially when many of the old timers started droppin' like flies. Then, as I said, someone had to pick up the slack and that was usually the single people who didn't have kids and therefore didn't have has much keeping them down. As more corps left and continue to leave the remaining ones have more slack to deal with.
Obviously, these days fewer people are signing up. I think that this is because the control of the 90's kind of showed everyone what corps is really like and more and more people said to themselves "there's no way I'm subjecting myself to that."
Although, there still are people signing up and it seems many of them are now young people who have been raised in the ministy. I know my younger brother says he is going to go in. I have an older brother who is corps already. He went in after leaving college and many of the people signing up are doing so instead of college. It seems like it has always been this way. Is it by design?
I know what is by design, the "growth track." Growing up in the ministry it was clear. You start with the foundational and then you graduate to intermediate, then to advanced. Then before you finish the AC there is usually someone up at the podium plugging the corps program. Where else is there to go (and grow, uhg)? I know that I always thought that I would end up going into the corps. It really was assumed. My parents went in. My brother went in. The question was never one of have I been called. It was always just, "So when are you going in the corps."
The first time I opened my eyes was somewhere around or after the "put your hand to the plow and don't look back" theme or maybe the "vow a vow..." time. Perhaps that was the same year. So obviously that was being propounded over and over again. This was also by coincidence around the same time the corps went full time.
Our LC was B*b D@rn*ll and his wife. They had sold their multi million dollar business to go "full time." When RM got all up in their personal business as to how they were spending their money and gift giving etc., they left or were kicked out or something. They may have only dropped out of the corps at first and then left, I don't remember. Anyway, these were the same people saying "keep you hand to the ploy" and "if you vow a vow, you better pay it (stick to it)" and then they left.
So that opened my eyes a bit and I thought to myself that I had better really think about this corps thing that has always just been assumed I'd jump into. I did and realised, I wasn't hearing a "call" of any sort. That didn't stop people from continueing to ask me when I was going in.
So that gets me back to all these young, devoted, naive, friendly, nice kids over at MySpace and the ones that are not. "Get em' while their young." My now sister-in-law was at that meeting as well. When she heard that she said, "that's kinda scary." Then the guy started backpedaling. I was never asked to go into the corps. I was never asked if I thought I had been called. It was always just assumed an implied and really was set up in a way that going corps was just the next step on the road to spiritual maturity.
So regardless of what the brochure says about the service being for a lifetime, from my perspective, it was never put forth to me as an option. As I siad, it was assumed. At least not uptill years later after I had started telling people I didn't think it was for me.
A funny story....or not, for those of you who thought you always had a choice to go where you wanted.
This is from my very first post here at the GSpot, from my story. (This was the year the WOW program ws canceled and my parents and younger bro were planning on going that year....it was their request as corps)
Totally true, I was there.
Funny story. We are in the corp relo tent or something and we are discussing with the Rev. Ander-son-of-a on where they can go. It came down to either Dallas, TX as BC as they were before in FL or twig coor. in the town I was now in. The rev was our elder corps while we were in residence . So we were down. Well he goes to talk things over or go abroad or something and it was taking him a while to get back with us.
Meanwhile, we are standing waiting and talking about their options when one Rev. J Rumproast came over and ask us if he could help. They told him their deal and how they couldn't decide what would be best. So, He pulls out a coin and says this "This is how we do it in the back... Heads, it's Dallas, tails it's B-more. He smiles as though he is kind of joking but totally serious as though he had been inspired by God to do this. It was heads! Praise the Lord! Right about the time everyone is shaking hands and saying our goodbyes to Rev. Rump the Rev. Ander-son-of-a comes walking back in. He is p!$$ed. He obviously saw some of what went on but instead of yelling at the rump he yells at my parents. To my suprise, my OSD (ol step dad) yells back. I was about to sh!+e myself. This was Ander-son-of-a--, not some snot-nosed kid. Guess who won? They didn't go to Dallas they went to try and B-more in B-more.
What was that about corps assignments? Your desire, your ability, the needs of the ministry, and the flip of a lucky silver dollar. :blink:
Whether or not they misrepresented the commitment for the Way Corps, I wouldn't know. I never sat through the Corpse training.
One thing I do know, though, is that all Christians are called to a lifetime of service consistent with their stations in life. Note the caveat, consistent with their stations in life. Also, please note I said service, not unpaid employment or slavery.
So the tag line, a lifetime of service, to me sounds entirely reasonable. But from what you tell me, the reality had only a marginal resemblence to to the tag line.
Most Christians have no difficulty seeing this distinction.
Some will serve in dramatic, famous ways, some will serve in
Well, TWI equated "Christian" with TWI, so by saying that the Way Corps prepared you for a "Lifetime of Christian Service", they meant (and there was no mystery about it) "A Lifetime of TWI Service".
However...their definition of "service" was where the bait & switch lie.
A slogan (which is all that "A Lifetime of Christian Service" is) is not a contract, is not a description, is in no way complete. It's as vague and ephemeral as "Word Over The World" - which was never defined either.
Neither is a brochure legally or morally equivalent to a binding contract.
I DID notice that the exact requirement of the corps were subject to
complete change at ANY moment.
After all, nobody signed a document saying "note-taking is mandatory,
and I understand I must always take notes unless otherwise specified",
but vpw would throw people out of a room if they weren't taking notes.
(And was prepared to throw them out of the corps.)
vpw also could-and did-wake up one morning, kick out the entire corps
year, (in violation of the obligations HE accepted-that's a 2way street),
and then say "you can return only if you write a letter of an oath of
loyalty to me"-which he DID require.
(Ok, I dont know the time of day he announced they were all kicked
out, but that's not the point of my comment.)
I'm sure there's a WEALTH of other "requirements" that came and went
What was expected of you certainly did change. I entered the corpse to be the best twig coordinator I could be. I wanted to help people whichever way I could. I knew corpse twig coordinators that were going back to school and some corpse grads with no assignment. Well, everyone knows now that being a lowly twig coordinator in the 90's meant you were not living up to your salt as corpse because in the 90's and later it was a requirement to be able to handle a branch, limb or region if you wanted to stay active corpse. Course these days there are "branches" with just 2 fellowships!)
Neither is a brochure legally or morally equivalent to a binding contract.
Your correct WW,but it does show the intent of the program so you know what it about and some of what to expect if you are going to be involved. And this idea was not limited to a brochure either if one is honest,it showed up in training also. The point beng it was not only later that it showed up it was there all along.
At what point (year) did TWI teach that WC was to train people to be best twig coordinator?
At what point (year) did TWI teach that WC was to be leaders of tens of thousands (I know it was 1990-something...)?
At what point (year) did TWI say WC was for a lifetime of service? (I assume this could be in the mid-90's again, but I'm not certain.)
I'm just trying to put a timeline on this - the changes in the level of committment is interesting, considering what was going on in the ministry at the time...
WD, your brochure is helpful, but I assume it is from only one year, maybe a few years. There was more than one brochure.
Like I said, when we went in we were thinking lifetime of Christian service....but perhaps as "twig" leaders or perhaps as branch or limb leaders. This is what my parents wanted to do. This was in the mid-80's though, people going in earlier may have had different experiences. As Sky pointed out, there have been a few changes over the years.
Lindy
I think maybe you misunderstood my post, I have no disagreement with what you have posted. Obviously the program changed that I never contested. Only the fact that the lifetime of Service was somehow sprung upon people later on after arriving. Starting with The Way Living in Love 1971 on every (and there is more that one) printed item, tape shows the same intent as I said the wording changed some but the message or idea did not . The Corps was not a two or four year program and then you are done do what you want thing. It was a lifetime of Christian Service. You and your family understood that as did most others. Honestly if you did not get that by the time you were through with your apprentice year you must have been asleep.
Either way if your requests on how ,where you serve were met or not your expectation was that you were to serve in a leadership capacity in some manner for the Way.
Whoa, I go on one little gymnastics competition, and looks what happens while I'm gone! Thanks, WW, for digging up my post on the other thread about this.
Okay, dovey, you said the brochure says...
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Sounds to me like "their desire, ability" means the desire and ability of the Corps graduate, not the desire and ability of the BOT.
Now, how does all that apply in my case? I went in with the agreement that I (and spouse) would be Recognized Family Corps. He wanted to go on Staff as a chef, and not take field assignments. They wanted him on that basis. We spoke about this goal during the in-res year, and no one told us our goals were incorrect. Right after we graduated, he was assigned to Staff/kitchen at Rome City. I was assigned there also.
Then they realized that he had not resolved his drinking problem.
VPW himself kicked us out. We were "re-assigned" to Phoenix, just to live there and be close to the LC, who had supposedly kicked this habit himself. That guy decided he didn't want to help my husband. And the LC didn't last there himself much longer than half the year. My spouse's disease continued to progress, which included financial problems and violence.
I was kicked out, too. I had done nothing wrong. I was given no support. No one called or wrote to check on how I was doing. A Family Corps couple took over, offered no help. Another Corps couple took over. The wife suggested that if I washed my hair more often that my spouse wouldn't want to go out drinking. Even he said that was an absurd thing to say.
Two years later, I was contacted by another new guy who told me I was to submit to a Corps evaluation. When I protested that we had been taken on as Recognized Corps, he said that, "Dr. had never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps." I refused to fill out the form, or submit to an evaluation from a guy who I'd never even met before.
It was either that year or the following, I got a form letter from VPW, asking why I hadn't attended Corps week and the ROA. I answered with a considered and respectful letter. He returned it, scrawling across the top of it that he thought I was "bitter." All during that time in Phoenix, I had run a Twig, helped a WOW family, participated in an apprentice Corps person's theater production, worked part-time, raised 2 babies, and coped with my spouse and his disease.
I honored my commitment, but TWI didn't honor theirs. All the talk about the "Corps household" and standing up for one another...
And lest you think I am "bitter," I'm not. I was stunned by Wierwille's letter when it happened, but now I'm thankful for it. He showed his true stripes to me, and I was able to walk away from TWI before I got hurt worse, as so many others had been. I left in 1985.
That was one of the points of this thread but not the only one. I am interested in, as I said, both what was printed and said (lifetime of Christian service) and what was implied and what people really thought it meant.
WD, your brochure is helpful, but I assume it is from only one year, maybe a few years. There was more than one brochure.
Like I said, when we went in we were thinking lifetime of Christian service....but perhaps as "twig" leaders or perhaps as branch or limb leaders. This is what my parents wanted to do. This was in the mid-80's though, people going in earlier may have had different experiences. As Sky pointed out, there have been a few changes over the years.
Lindy,
Yeah......lots of changes over the years.
Changes in approach, changes in terminology, changes in the brochure, changes in intensity..........some corps grads continued onward with their military careers, some went back to college or their masters/doctorate degrees. Like I said before......the Corps Household Newletter in the late 70s and early 80s gave detailed information on some of this.
WD gave us one version of the corps brochure.....and its stated intent:
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest, and need. Where they serve depends on their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Graduates go forth....
Graduates go forth to serve....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas of concern (who dictates the concern?)....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest (who's interests are being served?)....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest, and need (who determines need?)....
Who DETERMINES the "concern, interest and need".....?????
Keep reading.
Why don't they read the next line? [vpw in pfal class]
Here is the NEXT line:
Where they [the corps grad(s)] serve depends on their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....WHERE they serve depends on their interest, ability, and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where THEY serve depends on their interest, ability, and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they SERVE depends on their interest, ability, and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve DEPENDS on their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on THEIR interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their INTEREST, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [THEIR] ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [their] ABILITY and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [their] ability and the NEEDS of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [their] ability and the needs of the MINISTY.
Take your pick. What do you want to emphasize?
As plain as can be, I see it as....Where THEY serve depends on THEIR interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Now, IF......twi would have stated in print.......WHEN YOU ARE A CORPS GRAD, you will be required to take yearly assignments as deemed by the TRUSTEES, and you will be required to move every two or three years, and you are NOT ALLOWED to own a home, and you are NOT ALLOWED to have any pets, ETC. ETC. it would be honest and upfront.
With each passing year......more HOOPS were added and raised a little higher.
Your story is a sad one indeed a poster child for what should not have happened, and you are correct about; Sounds to me like "their desire, ability" means the desire and ability of the Corps graduate, not the desire and ability of the BOT.
We seemed to have a bit of a switch here in topics some want to debate the success of the program or argue the semantics of each word or if the program changed.. The question at hand was did you think going in it was a lifetime of service it is to that which I addressed my response. I offered the brochure one of many printed documentations that upfront it was stated the programs intent. Could it have been better stated maybe ,it would be hard to cover everything in a brochure and impossible to cover the changes years ahead. Of course they did not tell you every little thing you would be doing neither do the army brochures. BUT the one point clear through all the years was they were training leaders to work in their ministry. It was not a few years program and your done,service in the ministry was expected for years to come. I believe as lindys parents did most people got that . If People some ,years later dissatisfied with their choice, their lot in life and PO'd want to act like they never knew what they were getting into fine so be it. But I'm not buying it. Way to many things in taped teachings and printed form to have missed it. It's much like working for a company for years where it is just the best place to work, couldn't be better. Until they get laid off then all of a sudden the job sucked the whole time ,horrible place to work. They did this and that. The honest thing would be to say you know I enjoyed working there for the years I did I liked my job but in the end it did not work out like I would have wanted. The honest thing here would be to say you know I knew I was signing on for ,the long haul I read the program brochures but I did not like the way it turned out And as I got older I realized that I could not or did not want to honor the commitment made at a very early age when I could not foresee how I would feel in the future. Sorry I don't believe that this idea was some secret sprung on anybody when the got there.
WD gave us one version of the corps brochure.....and its stated intent:
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest, and need. Where they serve depends on their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Actually what I gave you was the consistent intent that never changed through the changes or growth in the program. A lifetime of service.
How many companies or charities run basically by volunteers do you know of that ask for a LIFETIME of any sort of service?
For you old corps grads, what were you thinking that meant when you decided to go into the corps?
I think it is a rediculous thing to ask anyone of. I believe that perhaps in the early days the program was just to teach you how to serve, not full time in the ministry, but serve to some degree. I would think in those days it would have been a little easier for corps folks to decided not to serve anymore and just become a normal fellowshipper type person.
In more recent years they don't have a lot of corps. It seems everyone who is corps is a leader of tens, hundreds, etc. They all have bigger assignments. Now when someone thinks of dropping their corps status, they have a whole area that someone, somewhere else, somehow has to pick up the slack and take over. This over extends the now one or two fewer existing corps.
Lindy,
In today's twi, from some I've talked to.......the point about "bigger assignments" is incorrect.
There are many states that have less than 20 twi followers. Even on those protwi-myspace.com sites, some of those teens talk about "no one" in their area going to the adv class.
In the mid-90s, lcm mandated that those rural-type believers move to the limb city.....IF they wanted to be an active part of twi. Some moved, some didn't.
Long gone are the days......like in New Orleans in 1980ish where there were 70 twigs.
Don't know about the 90"s questions as I had departed by then but as early as 76 in the 700 series tapes WP talked about training twig leaders #797 Stones of Witness he talked about it if that helps.
Actually what I gave you was the consistent intent that never changed through the changes or growth in the program. A lifetime of service.
WD,
Actually.......you have ALREADY given TWO versions of "consistent" intent.
Check your post #29
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest and need. Where they serve depends upon the needs of the ministry.
Check your post #52
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest and need. Where they serve depends upon their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Consistent intent???????????? In this thread, you've already given us two "printed" intents.
Ok perhaps I worded things in a way that caused this spin off when I really didn't intend it to go this route....but still somewhat interesting conversation going on.
Sky wrote:
Now, IF......twi would have stated in print.......WHEN YOU ARE A CORPS GRAD, you will be required to take yearly assignments as deemed by the TRUSTEES, and you will be required to move every two or three years, and you are NOT ALLOWED to own a home, and you are NOT ALLOWED to have any pets, ETC. ETC. it would be honest and upfront.
Absolutely. One would think that if you are going to commit the rest of your life to an organization that you might want to know the specifics in advance.
shaz wrote:
It would have been more up front and honest, and almost no one would have signed up.
Exactly. See current numbers of corps applicants and graduates. Once Martindale began to slowly put corps standards on fellowship coordinators and then everyday Joe believer, people realised what it was really like to be corps and for most people it is a turn off.
This is one thing I wanted to get at. The business plan the ministry has is totally wacked. It needs these lifetime commitments from volunteers in order to keep functioning. So in order to keep these people in place there is a whole slew of teachings that have been focused on and taught to guilt and pressure people into honering thier commitment to God (ie the ministry). Yes they need to keep the everyday follower as well but they really need the corps to keep eveyone in line and in order and "in the household" of cha-ching.
Now, even if the ministry is kinder and gentler, the corps program is still very demanding. Sky you said:
Lindy,
In today's twi, from some I've talked to.......the point about "bigger assignments" is incorrect.
There are many states that have less than 20 twi followers. Even on those protwi-myspace.com sites, some of those teens talk about "no one" in their area going to the adv class.
In the mid-90s, lcm mandated that those rural-type believers move to the limb city.....IF they wanted to be an active part of twi. Some moved, some didn't.
Long gone are the days......like in New Orleans in 1980ish where there were 70 twigs.
Just wanting to clarify this point.
That being true a corps person still may have many fellowships they oversee and perhaps multiple fellowships to run at times. While it may not be like the days of huge branchs to run there are also far less corps. For example I know someone who ran an area. One FC decided it was too much for them and so the corps peson had to pick it up and run it. Then the other corps person cross town left. That person oversaw fellowships and ran one as well. Suddenly this person with a full time job, now had to run two fellowships a week with quite a bit of distance between them and still had to preform all the other corps duties they already had. All because there is not the abundance of corps to fill in. They all have jobs to do (both secular and for the minstry) and there are fewer people who can pick up the slack when needed.
This is not a good way to run any sort of organization.
Whitedove, you are my friend, and I've known you since forever, but geeze, you never went thru the way corps, so what makes you the expert on what it was and was intented to be?
You never even went WOW. So please, stop. Ok?
You have no idea what some of us went through. And what we gave up, and the kind of sacrifices we made. I am so tired of crap being minimized. Call me grouchy.......
I'm sick of it. It's easy for people who never gave up anything to judge those of us who did.
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WhiteDove
Actually you are incorrect the brochure said what I printed only which is.
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern,interest,and need. Where they serve depends upon their desire, ability and the needs of the ministry.
It is logical to assume that since it says WAY Corps they were talking about The Way Ministry when they printed this booklet for promotion of their program the Way Corps. Do know of another Way Corps? By the way straw man do you have any tangible evidence to prove your point? It is called supporting your claim. You seem content to misquote, add to ,and misrepresent what I can and have produced to support my claim yet I see nothing from you. Could there be a reason that is so? AAAAAH maybe there is none. Yeah I thought so!
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WhiteDove
Some more from the brochure
Graduates of the Way Corps make up the heart of the leadership of The Way Ministry. The Way Corps is not a substitute for college. It is advanced training for specially selected men and women.
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skyrider
Okay......let's just look at this.
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve.......serve where??....in areas of concern, interest and need. Succinct. Simple. Vague.
Where they serve depends upon their desire.........THEIR desire.....(their) ability, and the needs of the ministry. First mentioned is THEIR DESIRE. Is it mentioned first, because THAT is the most important priority? Their ability is also an important quality. And, the needs of the ministry are included in the mix. Two of the three points make note of the INDIVIDUAL.
Thanks whitedove.................I can agree with twi's logic of the INDIVIDUAL'S DESIRE listed first.
That's the way I understood it when I signed on the line.
:)
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WhiteDove
Nope it is three things they consider in making one choice in your lifetime of service. Each is not an end to itself just another part of the process in consideration. Thats right individual desire on how ,where you wanted to serve was considered but you still were expected to serve a lifetime which was after all the point in this thread. Glad you agree.
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lindyhopper
OK some people didn't take the Ritalin break.
That was one of the points of this thread but not the only one. I am interested in, as I said, both what was printed and said (lifetime of Christian service) and what was implied and what people really thought it meant.
WD, your brochure is helpful, but I assume it is from only one year, maybe a few years. There was more than one brochure.
Like I said, when we went in we were thinking lifetime of Christian service....but perhaps as "twig" leaders or perhaps as branch or limb leaders. This is what my parents wanted to do. This was in the mid-80's though, people going in earlier may have had different experiences. As Sky pointed out, there have been a few changes over the years.
I do remember my P's being able to put in preferences for assignments but people didn't always get that. It did seem that people with kids, family corps, did usually get their preference and usually had longer assignments. My parent's first one lasted 8 yrs. I think it was a little different for the single corps, especially when many of the old timers started droppin' like flies. Then, as I said, someone had to pick up the slack and that was usually the single people who didn't have kids and therefore didn't have has much keeping them down. As more corps left and continue to leave the remaining ones have more slack to deal with.
Obviously, these days fewer people are signing up. I think that this is because the control of the 90's kind of showed everyone what corps is really like and more and more people said to themselves "there's no way I'm subjecting myself to that."
Although, there still are people signing up and it seems many of them are now young people who have been raised in the ministy. I know my younger brother says he is going to go in. I have an older brother who is corps already. He went in after leaving college and many of the people signing up are doing so instead of college. It seems like it has always been this way. Is it by design?
I know what is by design, the "growth track." Growing up in the ministry it was clear. You start with the foundational and then you graduate to intermediate, then to advanced. Then before you finish the AC there is usually someone up at the podium plugging the corps program. Where else is there to go (and grow, uhg)? I know that I always thought that I would end up going into the corps. It really was assumed. My parents went in. My brother went in. The question was never one of have I been called. It was always just, "So when are you going in the corps."
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lindyhopper
...continued
The first time I opened my eyes was somewhere around or after the "put your hand to the plow and don't look back" theme or maybe the "vow a vow..." time. Perhaps that was the same year. So obviously that was being propounded over and over again. This was also by coincidence around the same time the corps went full time.
Our LC was B*b D@rn*ll and his wife. They had sold their multi million dollar business to go "full time." When RM got all up in their personal business as to how they were spending their money and gift giving etc., they left or were kicked out or something. They may have only dropped out of the corps at first and then left, I don't remember. Anyway, these were the same people saying "keep you hand to the ploy" and "if you vow a vow, you better pay it (stick to it)" and then they left.
So that opened my eyes a bit and I thought to myself that I had better really think about this corps thing that has always just been assumed I'd jump into. I did and realised, I wasn't hearing a "call" of any sort. That didn't stop people from continueing to ask me when I was going in.
So that gets me back to all these young, devoted, naive, friendly, nice kids over at MySpace and the ones that are not. "Get em' while their young." My now sister-in-law was at that meeting as well. When she heard that she said, "that's kinda scary." Then the guy started backpedaling. I was never asked to go into the corps. I was never asked if I thought I had been called. It was always just assumed an implied and really was set up in a way that going corps was just the next step on the road to spiritual maturity.
So regardless of what the brochure says about the service being for a lifetime, from my perspective, it was never put forth to me as an option. As I siad, it was assumed. At least not uptill years later after I had started telling people I didn't think it was for me.
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lindyhopper
A funny story....or not, for those of you who thought you always had a choice to go where you wanted.
This is from my very first post here at the GSpot, from my story. (This was the year the WOW program ws canceled and my parents and younger bro were planning on going that year....it was their request as corps)
Totally true, I was there.
What was that about corps assignments? Your desire, your ability, the needs of the ministry, and the flip of a lucky silver dollar. :blink:
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WordWolf
Most Christians have no difficulty seeing this distinction.
Some will serve in dramatic, famous ways, some will serve in
smaller, equally-vital ways.
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WordWolf
Neither is a brochure legally or morally equivalent to a binding contract.
I DID notice that the exact requirement of the corps were subject to
complete change at ANY moment.
After all, nobody signed a document saying "note-taking is mandatory,
and I understand I must always take notes unless otherwise specified",
but vpw would throw people out of a room if they weren't taking notes.
(And was prepared to throw them out of the corps.)
vpw also could-and did-wake up one morning, kick out the entire corps
year, (in violation of the obligations HE accepted-that's a 2way street),
and then say "you can return only if you write a letter of an oath of
loyalty to me"-which he DID require.
(Ok, I dont know the time of day he announced they were all kicked
out, but that's not the point of my comment.)
I'm sure there's a WEALTH of other "requirements" that came and went
at a moment's notice as well.
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penguin
What was expected of you certainly did change. I entered the corpse to be the best twig coordinator I could be. I wanted to help people whichever way I could. I knew corpse twig coordinators that were going back to school and some corpse grads with no assignment. Well, everyone knows now that being a lowly twig coordinator in the 90's meant you were not living up to your salt as corpse because in the 90's and later it was a requirement to be able to handle a branch, limb or region if you wanted to stay active corpse. Course these days there are "branches" with just 2 fellowships!)
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WhiteDove
Your correct WW,but it does show the intent of the program so you know what it about and some of what to expect if you are going to be involved. And this idea was not limited to a brochure either if one is honest,it showed up in training also. The point beng it was not only later that it showed up it was there all along.
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ChasUFarley
Just curious...
At what point (year) did TWI teach that WC was to train people to be best twig coordinator?
At what point (year) did TWI teach that WC was to be leaders of tens of thousands (I know it was 1990-something...)?
At what point (year) did TWI say WC was for a lifetime of service? (I assume this could be in the mid-90's again, but I'm not certain.)
I'm just trying to put a timeline on this - the changes in the level of committment is interesting, considering what was going on in the ministry at the time...
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WhiteDove
WD, your brochure is helpful, but I assume it is from only one year, maybe a few years. There was more than one brochure.
Like I said, when we went in we were thinking lifetime of Christian service....but perhaps as "twig" leaders or perhaps as branch or limb leaders. This is what my parents wanted to do. This was in the mid-80's though, people going in earlier may have had different experiences. As Sky pointed out, there have been a few changes over the years.
Lindy
I think maybe you misunderstood my post, I have no disagreement with what you have posted. Obviously the program changed that I never contested. Only the fact that the lifetime of Service was somehow sprung upon people later on after arriving. Starting with The Way Living in Love 1971 on every (and there is more that one) printed item, tape shows the same intent as I said the wording changed some but the message or idea did not . The Corps was not a two or four year program and then you are done do what you want thing. It was a lifetime of Christian Service. You and your family understood that as did most others. Honestly if you did not get that by the time you were through with your apprentice year you must have been asleep.
Either way if your requests on how ,where you serve were met or not your expectation was that you were to serve in a leadership capacity in some manner for the Way.
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shazdancer
Whoa, I go on one little gymnastics competition, and looks what happens while I'm gone! Thanks, WW, for digging up my post on the other thread about this.
Okay, dovey, you said the brochure says...
Sounds to me like "their desire, ability" means the desire and ability of the Corps graduate, not the desire and ability of the BOT.Now, how does all that apply in my case? I went in with the agreement that I (and spouse) would be Recognized Family Corps. He wanted to go on Staff as a chef, and not take field assignments. They wanted him on that basis. We spoke about this goal during the in-res year, and no one told us our goals were incorrect. Right after we graduated, he was assigned to Staff/kitchen at Rome City. I was assigned there also.
Then they realized that he had not resolved his drinking problem.
VPW himself kicked us out. We were "re-assigned" to Phoenix, just to live there and be close to the LC, who had supposedly kicked this habit himself. That guy decided he didn't want to help my husband. And the LC didn't last there himself much longer than half the year. My spouse's disease continued to progress, which included financial problems and violence.
I was kicked out, too. I had done nothing wrong. I was given no support. No one called or wrote to check on how I was doing. A Family Corps couple took over, offered no help. Another Corps couple took over. The wife suggested that if I washed my hair more often that my spouse wouldn't want to go out drinking. Even he said that was an absurd thing to say.
Two years later, I was contacted by another new guy who told me I was to submit to a Corps evaluation. When I protested that we had been taken on as Recognized Corps, he said that, "Dr. had never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps." I refused to fill out the form, or submit to an evaluation from a guy who I'd never even met before.
It was either that year or the following, I got a form letter from VPW, asking why I hadn't attended Corps week and the ROA. I answered with a considered and respectful letter. He returned it, scrawling across the top of it that he thought I was "bitter." All during that time in Phoenix, I had run a Twig, helped a WOW family, participated in an apprentice Corps person's theater production, worked part-time, raised 2 babies, and coped with my spouse and his disease.
I honored my commitment, but TWI didn't honor theirs. All the talk about the "Corps household" and standing up for one another...
And lest you think I am "bitter," I'm not. I was stunned by Wierwille's letter when it happened, but now I'm thankful for it. He showed his true stripes to me, and I was able to walk away from TWI before I got hurt worse, as so many others had been. I left in 1985.
Regards,
Shaz
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skyrider
Lindy,
Yeah......lots of changes over the years.
Changes in approach, changes in terminology, changes in the brochure, changes in intensity..........some corps grads continued onward with their military careers, some went back to college or their masters/doctorate degrees. Like I said before......the Corps Household Newletter in the late 70s and early 80s gave detailed information on some of this.
WD gave us one version of the corps brochure.....and its stated intent:
Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest, and need. Where they serve depends on their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Graduates go forth....
Graduates go forth to serve....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas of concern (who dictates the concern?)....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest (who's interests are being served?)....
Graduates go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest, and need (who determines need?)....
Who DETERMINES the "concern, interest and need".....?????
Keep reading.
Why don't they read the next line? [vpw in pfal class]
Here is the NEXT line:
Where they [the corps grad(s)] serve depends on their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....WHERE they serve depends on their interest, ability, and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where THEY serve depends on their interest, ability, and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they SERVE depends on their interest, ability, and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve DEPENDS on their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on THEIR interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their INTEREST, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [THEIR] ability and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [their] ABILITY and the needs of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [their] ability and the NEEDS of the ministry.
Or.....Where they serve depends on their interest, [their] ability and the needs of the MINISTY.
Take your pick. What do you want to emphasize?
As plain as can be, I see it as....Where THEY serve depends on THEIR interest, ability and the needs of the ministry.
Now, IF......twi would have stated in print.......WHEN YOU ARE A CORPS GRAD, you will be required to take yearly assignments as deemed by the TRUSTEES, and you will be required to move every two or three years, and you are NOT ALLOWED to own a home, and you are NOT ALLOWED to have any pets, ETC. ETC. it would be honest and upfront.
With each passing year......more HOOPS were added and raised a little higher.
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shazdancer
It would have been more up front and honest, and almost no one would have signed up.
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skyrider
Bingo.
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WhiteDove
Shaz
Your story is a sad one indeed a poster child for what should not have happened, and you are correct about; Sounds to me like "their desire, ability" means the desire and ability of the Corps graduate, not the desire and ability of the BOT.
We seemed to have a bit of a switch here in topics some want to debate the success of the program or argue the semantics of each word or if the program changed.. The question at hand was did you think going in it was a lifetime of service it is to that which I addressed my response. I offered the brochure one of many printed documentations that upfront it was stated the programs intent. Could it have been better stated maybe ,it would be hard to cover everything in a brochure and impossible to cover the changes years ahead. Of course they did not tell you every little thing you would be doing neither do the army brochures. BUT the one point clear through all the years was they were training leaders to work in their ministry. It was not a few years program and your done,service in the ministry was expected for years to come. I believe as lindys parents did most people got that . If People some ,years later dissatisfied with their choice, their lot in life and PO'd want to act like they never knew what they were getting into fine so be it. But I'm not buying it. Way to many things in taped teachings and printed form to have missed it. It's much like working for a company for years where it is just the best place to work, couldn't be better. Until they get laid off then all of a sudden the job sucked the whole time ,horrible place to work. They did this and that. The honest thing would be to say you know I enjoyed working there for the years I did I liked my job but in the end it did not work out like I would have wanted. The honest thing here would be to say you know I knew I was signing on for ,the long haul I read the program brochures but I did not like the way it turned out And as I got older I realized that I could not or did not want to honor the commitment made at a very early age when I could not foresee how I would feel in the future. Sorry I don't believe that this idea was some secret sprung on anybody when the got there.
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WhiteDove
Actually what I gave you was the consistent intent that never changed through the changes or growth in the program. A lifetime of service.
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skyrider
Lindy,
In today's twi, from some I've talked to.......the point about "bigger assignments" is incorrect.
There are many states that have less than 20 twi followers. Even on those protwi-myspace.com sites, some of those teens talk about "no one" in their area going to the adv class.
In the mid-90s, lcm mandated that those rural-type believers move to the limb city.....IF they wanted to be an active part of twi. Some moved, some didn't.
Long gone are the days......like in New Orleans in 1980ish where there were 70 twigs.
Just wanting to clarify this point.
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WhiteDove
Chas
Don't know about the 90"s questions as I had departed by then but as early as 76 in the 700 series tapes WP talked about training twig leaders #797 Stones of Witness he talked about it if that helps.
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skyrider
WD,
Actually.......you have ALREADY given TWO versions of "consistent" intent.
Check your post #29
Check your post #52Consistent intent???????????? In this thread, you've already given us two "printed" intents.
Twi did the same to the corps program.
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lindyhopper
Ok perhaps I worded things in a way that caused this spin off when I really didn't intend it to go this route....but still somewhat interesting conversation going on.
Sky wrote:
Absolutely. One would think that if you are going to commit the rest of your life to an organization that you might want to know the specifics in advance.shaz wrote:
Exactly. See current numbers of corps applicants and graduates. Once Martindale began to slowly put corps standards on fellowship coordinators and then everyday Joe believer, people realised what it was really like to be corps and for most people it is a turn off.
This is one thing I wanted to get at. The business plan the ministry has is totally wacked. It needs these lifetime commitments from volunteers in order to keep functioning. So in order to keep these people in place there is a whole slew of teachings that have been focused on and taught to guilt and pressure people into honering thier commitment to God (ie the ministry). Yes they need to keep the everyday follower as well but they really need the corps to keep eveyone in line and in order and "in the household" of cha-ching.
Now, even if the ministry is kinder and gentler, the corps program is still very demanding. Sky you said:
That being true a corps person still may have many fellowships they oversee and perhaps multiple fellowships to run at times. While it may not be like the days of huge branchs to run there are also far less corps. For example I know someone who ran an area. One FC decided it was too much for them and so the corps peson had to pick it up and run it. Then the other corps person cross town left. That person oversaw fellowships and ran one as well. Suddenly this person with a full time job, now had to run two fellowships a week with quite a bit of distance between them and still had to preform all the other corps duties they already had. All because there is not the abundance of corps to fill in. They all have jobs to do (both secular and for the minstry) and there are fewer people who can pick up the slack when needed.
This is not a good way to run any sort of organization.
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ex10
OMG
I confess to being a latecomer to this thread.
Whitedove, you are my friend, and I've known you since forever, but geeze, you never went thru the way corps, so what makes you the expert on what it was and was intented to be?
You never even went WOW. So please, stop. Ok?
You have no idea what some of us went through. And what we gave up, and the kind of sacrifices we made. I am so tired of crap being minimized. Call me grouchy.......
I'm sick of it. It's easy for people who never gave up anything to judge those of us who did.
:B)
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