If we are so good at 'getting people into the word' then we can 'get them out of the word' right?
I will not feel or act responsible for people the came to a twi anything because I invited them, nor do I feel accountable if they are still there. If I had that kind of power over another's mind, then I can call them tomorrow and at my urging they'll leave twi right?
Are you being rhetorical in the first part of this? I'm thinking you are...
At any rate... as for me, folks got involved because they wanted to, I didn't twist their arms or promise them nirvana... while the original curiosity to go to fellowship was probably due to how they saw my life change or how I lived my life after I was in... the decision to get involved was theirs...
But... that's not to say that if I ran into any of them today I wouldn't tell them what I think about the whole thing now... and (if they were still in) how they handled that info would be up to them as well...
I've kind of 'got to feel that way' ya know? Otherwise the guilt would be entirely too heavy a burden to carry... nw whut ahm sane?
The only thing I feel Sorry about is that I introduced them in the first place--when things went south in Alaska I told them I was gone and why--the families that stayed behind after I left--had no one to blame but themselves-- the scandal was front page news for weeks--noway anyone could pretend they didn't know what was going on.
I will not feel or act responsible for people that came to a twi anything because I invited them, nor do I feel accountable if they are still there.
Me either Shellon, Now you'll have to excuse me I have to go witnessing so I can "get some people into Greasespot Cafe" I can't wait to undershephard them.
Too often "I got them in the Word" is synonymous to "I got them into TWI."
"He / She is a believer" means "He / She is involved with TWI"
"He / She is an unbeliever" means "...Not involved with TWI, so have no fellowship with them."
"Unbelieving Believer" is someone not adhering to TWI doctrines, but is still involved for now.
These statements, and the assumptions behind them, IMO have the stench of arrogance.
It is assumed that if someone is with TWI, then of course they are "in the Word" and a "believer."
It is also assumed that, if they are not, then it is impossible to be "a believer," especially if they left TWI. :(
This makes no provisions for devout Christians who are involved with Joyce Meyer, other ministries or denominations...those are all unbelievers due to not being with TWI.
to me it is a loss . the folks that got involved because I said it was a good thing were friends .
they still are . I do not drop friends or family members because they are involved in organizations I am not involved in.
they were friends then and they are friends now .
I do not hate people involved in twi.
In fact I love them still. and I always will.
it is easy to just walk away and trash every relationship you had and make a break or whatever..
I chose to remain friends and love them and respect them. as I always did.
but the fact they are in and I am not puts a type of wedge in our communication.
they do not understand why I am no longer involved and talking even for years doesnt seem to work on any progress .
so I feel a loss of our frienship and type of elephant in the room .
and at times I get mad we can not talk like we used to without disagreement over some of the crap they come up with.
I do not care they are still in as much as they freak about me not being in .
see IM always the one with the problem now and they are 'good".
the whole situation has changed the dynamics of how we talk and get along.
it often feels their only focus is getting me to go to fellowship... and we are friends I get sick of it sometimes.
I try to change the conversation but it always goes back to talking to someone who is involved and I just frankly do not want to.
it is true if I speak of anything christian they find a problem wiht them and I am sick of that to.
Im christian they are christian and we were before the way.. but now it just seems to me they focus on what the ministry is doing ALL the time and IM not so I feel bad really ,not responsible because like them I feel they are missing out in life.
I do feel Im their new mission from God at times.
it makes me angry and I love them so it puts a wedge in like I said . so I wish I never got them involved because I miss them . they did it because we were friends mostly and now the very reason they did it makes our friendship less than it once was.
like "you have no friends when it comes to the word" and stand on the word.
twi taught my buddies this stuff in a sense I am responsible for getting them to hear and believe it , did I know how the chips will fall?
no.
if that is the point then how is twi responsible for some of the less than desirable behaviours some of their people did?
could they control them did they have Power over people ? did they decide who would marry whom? did they tell you who to leave your kids with?
sounds like a double standard really. good question at what point is anyone accountable for other folks behaviour?
does that include blaming the organization for what a few did within it to others? who was controling them ? should it not be the one who made the choice? why is twi blamed for the behaviour of individuals within the group?
"if that is the point then how is twi responsible for some of the less than desirable behaviours some of their people did?"
Responsible for all of it? no. But they are certainly responsible for encouraging some of that less than desirable behavior - and yes, they did encourage some of it. They also layed a foundation that allowed some less than desirable behaviours to flourish.
"could they control them did they have Power over people ?"
To somede degree or another, yes. They had the power, for example, to demote or remove abusive leadership. They likewise had the responsibility. If they can kick people out for asking honest questions, why could they not kick people out, or demote them, for publicly humiliating others? for encouraging abusive behaviors in others?
"did they decide who would marry whom?"
In some situations, yes. TWI did arrange marriages in some cases and in some cases they strongly encouraged marriages between couples who might otherwise have not married.
" did they tell you who to leave your kids with? "
Yes, they did. They also told us who NOT to leave our kids with.
"sounds like a double standard really. good question at what point is anyone accountable for other folks behaviour? "
We are accountable to the degree that we have influence over another, for when and how we use that influence. No man lives on an island. When my spouse decided I was not allowed to have anyone in my home without tracking him down at work first and getting his permission, leadership backed him up. When my spouse decided I was not allowed to listen to anything but TWI music, leadership backed him up. Both of those are arguments I may very well have prevailed in, had leadership not supported my spouse in them.
They are responsible for the influence they weilded, and how they used it.
When I sought out marriage counseling with my spouse, ultimately the counselor could not help us, in part, because TWI taught my spouse that these "worldly counselors" were devilish and did not know "The Word". Yes, TWI is responsible to some degree for all of the above because it came from people whom they gave power to, via placing them in leadership positions and via the doctrine the taught.
When I got people involved in TWI - "got them in the Word" - it was because I thought it was a good thing to turn them on to. Only ONCE did I get someone involved who was I didn't work with or whatever - I met them by knocking on their door. Other than that, it was like telling a girlfriend about a good sale at Macy's - it was easy, and I was good at it. But that's when I thought it was worth it.
I basically stopped doing that about 6 months before I left. Other people in my fellowship, people who were as unhappy as I was with the present situation and the backstabbing practices of the local leadership, all basically agreed that it wasn't worth trying to win anyone anymore because the leadership would just scare them off. We also collectively felt that by witnessing to people who were already disciples - had good jobs, didn't have a lot of debt, etc. - that we were screwed. I mean, what could we offer them? We had nothing - rental apartments and WOW mobiles - yet we're trying to say we have "the more abundant life". Insane!
I think there may be a couple of people left in that discovered TWI via me. I sincerely hope they're happy, but I'm not going to tell them to leave if they are. I think there are still some good people involved - and God bless 'em. If my friends are unhappy, I think they'll find the door, like I did. I can't live their lives for them.
Being upset about who you got involved in TWI would be like feeling guilty because you introduced a girl friend of yours to a male friend, and they got married, but the marriage didn't work out. It's not your fault. You did what you thought was the right or best thing to do. So be it.
Getting people in the Word: that really gives me the creeps. Before we left, we would go do mall witnessing at least weekly. Once in awhile we would have a few newbies, but the TC would scare them away. She was a nazi. When fellowhip was over, she would drill them on what they learned. That was soooo dumb IMHO. I rememer when I first went it wasn't everything I learned that kept me coming back, it was the people. I barely learned stuff because I thought the Bible was boring. This TC was so stupid; she couldn't figure out why there were no new people. The fellowship was dead, and she thougth we had to have 1 1/2 to 2 hour fellowships. When they were over, even the regulars were itching to leave. She couldn't figure out why we didn't want to hang around. Uhhhhh let's see......I've been here for 2 hours already, and I need to get to work in the morning. Plus it was a 30 minute drive home....geez!
I had another situation where I had witnessed to an older lady. My TC kept pushing me to get her in the class. I knew the lady didn't want the class. She was lonely and just wanted to hang out with us. She was still very influenced with her previous religion and though we were a bunch of nice christians to hang with. When I left for lcm's advanced class, they signed her up for the class. Later they mark and avoided her because she wasn't up with the program. That poor lady had no idea why she was being treated the way she was. It was a shame.
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Tom Strange
Are you being rhetorical in the first part of this? I'm thinking you are...
At any rate... as for me, folks got involved because they wanted to, I didn't twist their arms or promise them nirvana... while the original curiosity to go to fellowship was probably due to how they saw my life change or how I lived my life after I was in... the decision to get involved was theirs...
But... that's not to say that if I ran into any of them today I wouldn't tell them what I think about the whole thing now... and (if they were still in) how they handled that info would be up to them as well...
I've kind of 'got to feel that way' ya know? Otherwise the guilt would be entirely too heavy a burden to carry... nw whut ahm sane?
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Shellon
From you, I certainly do, Tom. I just don't think you need to have any guilt, that's all.
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templelady
The only thing I feel Sorry about is that I introduced them in the first place--when things went south in Alaska I told them I was gone and why--the families that stayed behind after I left--had no one to blame but themselves-- the scandal was front page news for weeks--noway anyone could pretend they didn't know what was going on.
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WhiteDove
Me either Shellon, Now you'll have to excuse me I have to go witnessing so I can "get some people into Greasespot Cafe" I can't wait to undershephard them.
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Patriot
Here's my take-
Too often "I got them in the Word" is synonymous to "I got them into TWI."
"He / She is a believer" means "He / She is involved with TWI"
"He / She is an unbeliever" means "...Not involved with TWI, so have no fellowship with them."
"Unbelieving Believer" is someone not adhering to TWI doctrines, but is still involved for now.
These statements, and the assumptions behind them, IMO have the stench of arrogance.
It is assumed that if someone is with TWI, then of course they are "in the Word" and a "believer."
It is also assumed that, if they are not, then it is impossible to be "a believer," especially if they left TWI. :(
This makes no provisions for devout Christians who are involved with Joyce Meyer, other ministries or denominations...those are all unbelievers due to not being with TWI.
The whole morphing of "God (A) is His Word (B)" and "The Word (B) is the ministry (C)" and "The Ministry © is the Word (B)" ....you can see where I am going. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.
Subtle, but a formula for idolatry at its worst.
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pond
did you read me in the chat last night Shellon?
I do not feel responsibile. BUT
to me it is a loss . the folks that got involved because I said it was a good thing were friends .
they still are . I do not drop friends or family members because they are involved in organizations I am not involved in.
they were friends then and they are friends now .
I do not hate people involved in twi.
In fact I love them still. and I always will.
it is easy to just walk away and trash every relationship you had and make a break or whatever..
I chose to remain friends and love them and respect them. as I always did.
but the fact they are in and I am not puts a type of wedge in our communication.
they do not understand why I am no longer involved and talking even for years doesnt seem to work on any progress .
so I feel a loss of our frienship and type of elephant in the room .
and at times I get mad we can not talk like we used to without disagreement over some of the crap they come up with.
I do not care they are still in as much as they freak about me not being in .
see IM always the one with the problem now and they are 'good".
the whole situation has changed the dynamics of how we talk and get along.
it often feels their only focus is getting me to go to fellowship... and we are friends I get sick of it sometimes.
I try to change the conversation but it always goes back to talking to someone who is involved and I just frankly do not want to.
it is true if I speak of anything christian they find a problem wiht them and I am sick of that to.
Im christian they are christian and we were before the way.. but now it just seems to me they focus on what the ministry is doing ALL the time and IM not so I feel bad really ,not responsible because like them I feel they are missing out in life.
I do feel Im their new mission from God at times.
it makes me angry and I love them so it puts a wedge in like I said . so I wish I never got them involved because I miss them . they did it because we were friends mostly and now the very reason they did it makes our friendship less than it once was.
it makes me sad.
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ex10
Shell,
You make a fabulous point.
I only wish I had that much power over people.
Especially my kids. :B)
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pond
Some of the stuff ya learn sticks a long time .
like "you have no friends when it comes to the word" and stand on the word.
twi taught my buddies this stuff in a sense I am responsible for getting them to hear and believe it , did I know how the chips will fall?
no.
if that is the point then how is twi responsible for some of the less than desirable behaviours some of their people did?
could they control them did they have Power over people ? did they decide who would marry whom? did they tell you who to leave your kids with?
sounds like a double standard really. good question at what point is anyone accountable for other folks behaviour?
does that include blaming the organization for what a few did within it to others? who was controling them ? should it not be the one who made the choice? why is twi blamed for the behaviour of individuals within the group?
good question.
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Abigail
"if that is the point then how is twi responsible for some of the less than desirable behaviours some of their people did?"
Responsible for all of it? no. But they are certainly responsible for encouraging some of that less than desirable behavior - and yes, they did encourage some of it. They also layed a foundation that allowed some less than desirable behaviours to flourish.
"could they control them did they have Power over people ?"
To somede degree or another, yes. They had the power, for example, to demote or remove abusive leadership. They likewise had the responsibility. If they can kick people out for asking honest questions, why could they not kick people out, or demote them, for publicly humiliating others? for encouraging abusive behaviors in others?
"did they decide who would marry whom?"
In some situations, yes. TWI did arrange marriages in some cases and in some cases they strongly encouraged marriages between couples who might otherwise have not married.
" did they tell you who to leave your kids with? "
Yes, they did. They also told us who NOT to leave our kids with.
"sounds like a double standard really. good question at what point is anyone accountable for other folks behaviour? "
We are accountable to the degree that we have influence over another, for when and how we use that influence. No man lives on an island. When my spouse decided I was not allowed to have anyone in my home without tracking him down at work first and getting his permission, leadership backed him up. When my spouse decided I was not allowed to listen to anything but TWI music, leadership backed him up. Both of those are arguments I may very well have prevailed in, had leadership not supported my spouse in them.
They are responsible for the influence they weilded, and how they used it.
When I sought out marriage counseling with my spouse, ultimately the counselor could not help us, in part, because TWI taught my spouse that these "worldly counselors" were devilish and did not know "The Word". Yes, TWI is responsible to some degree for all of the above because it came from people whom they gave power to, via placing them in leadership positions and via the doctrine the taught.
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ChasUFarley
Good thread, Shellon!
When I got people involved in TWI - "got them in the Word" - it was because I thought it was a good thing to turn them on to. Only ONCE did I get someone involved who was I didn't work with or whatever - I met them by knocking on their door. Other than that, it was like telling a girlfriend about a good sale at Macy's - it was easy, and I was good at it. But that's when I thought it was worth it.
I basically stopped doing that about 6 months before I left. Other people in my fellowship, people who were as unhappy as I was with the present situation and the backstabbing practices of the local leadership, all basically agreed that it wasn't worth trying to win anyone anymore because the leadership would just scare them off. We also collectively felt that by witnessing to people who were already disciples - had good jobs, didn't have a lot of debt, etc. - that we were screwed. I mean, what could we offer them? We had nothing - rental apartments and WOW mobiles - yet we're trying to say we have "the more abundant life". Insane!
I think there may be a couple of people left in that discovered TWI via me. I sincerely hope they're happy, but I'm not going to tell them to leave if they are. I think there are still some good people involved - and God bless 'em. If my friends are unhappy, I think they'll find the door, like I did. I can't live their lives for them.
Being upset about who you got involved in TWI would be like feeling guilty because you introduced a girl friend of yours to a male friend, and they got married, but the marriage didn't work out. It's not your fault. You did what you thought was the right or best thing to do. So be it.
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Nottawayfer
Getting people in the Word: that really gives me the creeps. Before we left, we would go do mall witnessing at least weekly. Once in awhile we would have a few newbies, but the TC would scare them away. She was a nazi. When fellowhip was over, she would drill them on what they learned. That was soooo dumb IMHO. I rememer when I first went it wasn't everything I learned that kept me coming back, it was the people. I barely learned stuff because I thought the Bible was boring. This TC was so stupid; she couldn't figure out why there were no new people. The fellowship was dead, and she thougth we had to have 1 1/2 to 2 hour fellowships. When they were over, even the regulars were itching to leave. She couldn't figure out why we didn't want to hang around. Uhhhhh let's see......I've been here for 2 hours already, and I need to get to work in the morning. Plus it was a 30 minute drive home....geez!
I had another situation where I had witnessed to an older lady. My TC kept pushing me to get her in the class. I knew the lady didn't want the class. She was lonely and just wanted to hang out with us. She was still very influenced with her previous religion and though we were a bunch of nice christians to hang with. When I left for lcm's advanced class, they signed her up for the class. Later they mark and avoided her because she wasn't up with the program. That poor lady had no idea why she was being treated the way she was. It was a shame.
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