Why would God prefer us to be hamstrung with no authoritative English text of His Word and will?
who says we are hamstrung?
Certainly it’s logical that God would do His best to find ways to re-issue His Word to those who truly wanted it, authoritatively and in their native tongue. All the world is now coming to English as their language of choice with the great influence of the Internet, CNN, and Hollywood.
IF God thought that 'His Word' was lost it would. Do we know that God thought 'His Word' was lost?
Certainly with all the problems in world religions, God would want us to have His Word in crystal clear authoritative English.
He probably would, if it was for people who understood english. Again, how do we know God thinks 'His Word' isn't already in crystal clear english? Maybe God thinks that's what the "new" versions of the Bible are.
The only people who could logically want to see God NOT succeed in reissuing His Word to us in modern English would be the theologians, ancient language experts, and self-seeking false ministers of tradition... or people who just haven’t totally thought the whole thing through yet.
Well... there is the possibility that God doesn't think 'His Word' needs re-issuing. There is the possibility that God thinks all of the different versions of the Bible are "just fine". But if he were to do it, he probably wouldn't choose a "whited sepulchre" to do it.
I have bet my life that God did succeed in this and He wasn’t hampered by any man, no matter what the sin and shortcomings. The only thing I see that can qualify as God’s sorely needed reissued Word is PFAL, written PFAL. Outside of that all we have is opinions, non-authoritative versions and translations.
Again, your assumption is that God needed to re-issue 'His Word'. That is your assumption and your opinion. If you are incorrect in your assumption/opinion, your belief that PFAL is God's Word re-issued is incorrect. Do you have anything to prove that "God wanting to re-issue 'His Word' is anything more than an assumption on your part?
I am thankful to God that I can loudly proclaim this in this free country.
Good question, George. I used to know people who kept a close count! You were hot stuff when you hit double digits! Surely you found favor with God and men at that point...
I remember being excited when I first took the class too. But alas, excitement is no guarantee of truth. You should probably check out http://ourworld.cs.com/PFALREVIEW/ when you get a chance. I'm sure there are a lot of posts here on GS too.
-JJ
Here's the updated version JJ. All the links have bee updated just this evening.
Actually, if everyone had the opportunity to really scruitinze the class with an open mind, it would be great learning. As Rafael said, we could separate truth from error more completely and get a better handle on truth without clogging our minds with the half-truths and errors woven throughout PFAL. One of the most beneficial things that happened to me was a Corps couple giving me a copy of the class on VHS. I could never have seen all the errors that were discussed in the PFAL Review by just reading the book.
With VHS, I was able to go at my own pace and check the material against the Scriptures. That can be a real eye opening experience.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of those who will sit through PFAL again do so with their eyes closed mentally and spiritually. Just a pleasant rehash of a long lost utotpia. Kind of sad really. There are good things in the class to be sure, but there are even better things you can find by identifying the wrong doctrines and asking God to show you what the real truth is.
Thanks for the updated link Jerry. Speaking of excitement, I also remember how thrilled I was when I first started reading the PFAL REVIEW thread. The excitement was at least on par with PFAL. And lasted a lot longer! Thanks for all your work on that. Everyone else too!
Yes, Jerry, thank you ever so much for all your hard work on that and for keeping it where we can access it. Thanks to everyone else who seriously considered, studied and contributed to that information.
I can't even begin to explain what a help that was to me when I was starting out questioning everything we had been taught. There's just no words and now way I could thank you for how much that helped me.
Regarding that group in Belize.... I knew there had been a discussion on them sometime ago and FINALLY found the thread. This may shed some more light on who they are:
I have been reading everyone's response to my class. I am not saying that this class is THE ONLY TRUTH, but this class is a kick start to knowing the Bible, especially for those who have never studied the Bible. God is so good and I don't care if 4 were on the cross with Jesus or if Adam and Eve had a belly button or not et. Those are personal beliefs, I don't think will get you in or out of Heaven. Have none of you that oppose this class ever had anything good happen to them after they took this class, has not some of this knowledge helped them in any way. I never agreed with a lot of actions that I saw 30 years ago that is one reason why I never stayed in, BUT the scriptures that I learned in the PFAL class always stuck with me. And I want to give others the opportunity to hear what I did. There has to be a lot of hurt and I pray God will give each one the peace to get over it. ( I know I am going to get slammed now) I won't charge for this class and maybe I can help someone else get a new lease on life. I have gotten alot of good response to this class which made me smile. Agape Love Everyone Margaux
I get the impression that you feel "The Class" is somewhat akin to those chain letters we get every now and then. You know, the ones with some innocuous prayer and a guarantee that - if you don't break the chain all sorts of good stuff will happen to you.
Personally, all I saw in my 15 years of obeisance to the dictates of said class was: a new address every year or so, a different group of "friends" every year or so, who really never got to know me (or I them), a different job every year or so, no roots, no sense of community, no REAL family life, no nuthin'. Just a lot of mindless dedication to someone else's supposed "goals".
To summarize my feelings about PFAL content, well, it's pretty basic Bible study sort of fare with few provocative entries and a lot of REALLY questionable "principles". I.E. - "The Law of Believing", which is utter nonsense (yes, you may quote me on that), "The Law of Giving and Receiving" (ditto), the "principle" of "receive, retain, release" (again, more nonsense), and the topper was the parlor trick of "Speaking in tongues" (BLATANT B.S.) which, contrary to Mr. Wierwille's adomnition, IS gibberish.
And in the pursuit of all things Holy, due to the sense of urgency and importance that was attributed to the class materials, we all put our REAL lives on hold for whatever length of time we spent in TWI. We gave a lot, accomplished little, and a very few jerkoffs at the top of the "WayTree" made out like bandits.
You'll pardon me if I'm not overly enthused that people are trying to resurrect this Bible blather again. If you like it, be my guest, but I remain underwhelmed...
Gosh George...Don't you see the value of sitting through the "class" again?
...I mean, if you tell a lie often enough, people will be more likely to believe it! The constant repetition of Wierwillian doctrine...over and over and over and over...until the glassy eyed individual has spittle running down their chin..."shanta Lo Kalamista" they cry out at the end, giving absolute proof that they have bought into this universe of fantasy...
Move to Belize and start selling pfal materials on the internet!...Begora! why didn't I think of that? Is 8th corps Gilmore shopping for his own personal jet yet?
I get the impression that you feel "The Class" is somewhat akin to those chain letters we get every now and then. You know, the ones with some innocuous prayer and a guarantee that - if you don't break the chain all sorts of good stuff will happen to you.
Personally, all I saw in my 15 years of obeisance to the dictates of said class was: a new address every year or so, a different group of "friends" every year or so, who really never got to know me (or I them), a different job every year or so, no roots, no sense of community, no REAL family life, no nuthin'. Just a lot of mindless dedication to someone else's supposed "goals".
To summarize my feelings about PFAL content, well, it's pretty basic Bible study sort of fare with few provocative entries and a lot of REALLY questionable "principles". I.E. - "The Law of Believing", which is utter nonsense (yes, you may quote me on that), "The Law of Giving and Receiving" (ditto), the "principle" of "receive, retain, release" (again, more nonsense), and the topper was the parlor trick of "Speaking in tongues" (BLATANT B.S.) which, contrary to Mr. Wierwille's adomnition, IS gibberish.
And in the pursuit of all things Holy, due to the sense of urgency and importance that was attributed to the class materials, we all put our REAL lives on hold for whatever length of time we spent in TWI. We gave a lot, accomplished little, and a very few jerkoffs at the top of the "WayTree" made out like bandits.
You'll pardon me if I'm not overly enthused that people are trying to resurrect this Bible blather again. If you like it, be my guest, but I remain underwhelmed...
I am so sorry you feel that way. Even the law of giving is evident in the secular world. I am sorry you had to sit under a dictatorship, as I see it, it was short of being a cult. I guess I was lucky and took the good and ran with it, although I wish I had ran harder. I personally know the power of speaking in tongues and I knew about that before the PFAL class when I knew nothing of twi. We live in a spiritual realm and there are laws we should live by, and I prefer to take Gods way. You can change lives with alot of the knowledge in the class. Look at the people that follow Benny Hinn (I spell that right?) that man will really answer to God, for ripping people off. so gotta go just my thoughts, thank you for listening.
I am so sorry you feel that way. Even the law of giving is evident in the secular world. but what has that got to do with PFAL? I am sorry you had to sit under a dictatorship, as I see it, it was short of being a cult. ...not 'short' IMO I guess I was lucky and took the good and ran with it, although I wish I had ran harder. ...and you can get that "good" so many other places along with much more "truth" I personally know the power of speaking in tongues and I knew about that before the PFAL class when I knew nothing of twi. We live in a spiritual realm and there are laws we should live by, and I prefer to take Gods way. ...then IMO you couldn't be farther from "God's way" You can change lives with alot of the knowledge in the class. ...but you could do that without clouding up their minds with 'the class' Look at the people that follow Benny Hinn (I spell that right?) that man will really answer to God, for ripping people off. This one just takes the cake. I highly, strongly doubt that Benny Hinn will ever have to answer to God for a FRACTION of what veepee will (including PFAL) so gotta go just my thoughts, thank you for listening.
just my opinions... but there really is so much you can do for folks without involving them in PFAL which subtly does so many other things to folks...
Thanks for the updated link Jerry. Speaking of excitement, I also remember how thrilled I was when I first started reading the PFAL REVIEW thread. The excitement was at least on par with PFAL. And lasted a lot longer! Thanks for all your work on that. Everyone else too!
-JJ...
Yes, Jerry, thank you ever so much for all your hard work on that and for keeping it where we can access it. Thanks to everyone else who seriously considered, studied and contributed to that information.
I can't even begin to explain what a help that was to me when I was starting out questioning everything we had been taught. There's just no words and now way I could thank you for how much that helped me.
You're quite welcome. and thank you for the kind words. The wonderful thing about the PFAL Review was that it became a group effort, a sort of online bible study. Many people contributed including Raf, Catcup, The Evan, Steve Lortz, et al. It was for me a big turning point and it's gratifying to know that it was a benefit to others like me trying to sort things out.
Freelady. I know you're going to have a hard time believing this, but, when I first landed in ex-TWi world, my beliefs and attitude were exactly like yours. I believed deeply in the accuracy of the PFAL class and just thought the Way's problems were all practical; not doctrinal. I prided myself on my knowledge of PFAL and often confronted people who seemed to have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater". But as I eventually discovered, the more closely you look at it, the more shaky it becomes.
PFAL is designed, imo, for people who want to believe in the Bible and want life to be simple. Im sorry but it's just not like that. The "class" offers a lot of truth and a few significant benefits. Yes, some good things occurred in my life after I took the class. But if you stop there, your journey with God and Christ will never mature. Accepting PFAL as the truth of God's Word is kind of like being satisfied with a sixth grade education. You learn some basic things, but you never really learn to think like an adult. YOu get a smattering of education, but not a complete education. The class gives you the senst that you know the bible, but all you really know is what VP assumed about the Bible. The real Bible remains a mystery to most PFAL grads. And then, when someone shows it to them, they get indignant or just can't handle it.
(Cue Jack Nicholson)
Anyway, Freelady I wholeheartedly encourage you to crank up your VCR and watch the class. But pause the tape, get out your concordance, slow down, and THINK about what's being taught. Check and see if that's what the Bible really says.
Is God really incapable of communicating directly with the mind of a "natural man"?
Does the word pros really mean "together with yet distinctly independent of", or is it just a common preposition used hundreds of times in the New Tesatment?
Does II Peter I:20 really mean we're not supposed to think when we read the Bible? Or is the context referring instead to where the Bible came from?
Did David really want to chop of Nathan's head?
Did David really have the right to any woman in the kingdom? If so, why did Nathan reprove him about taking another man's wife?
Does allos really mean another when there are more than two involved?
If the Bible explains itself then why are there "Orientalisms"?
I could go on, and on, and on, but you get the picture. I'll give you a little hint. All of the questions above indicate clear documentable examples of where the PFAL class contradicts the Bible. And that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. :-) There's lots more. So by all means dust off the tapes and take another look at PFAL. But this time, do it with your mind engaged instead of putting your brain in neutral.
Certainly with all the problems in world religions, God would want us to have His Word in crystal clear authoritative English.
If that's the case, then so much time/effort/money was certainly wasted by TWI translating the PFAL class/materials into Spanish/French, etc. And we were convinced it was God's Will to do so.
You're quite welcome. and thank you for the kind words. The wonderful thing about the PFAL Review was that it became a group effort, a sort of online bible study. Many people contributed including Raf, Catcup, The Evan, Steve Lortz, et al. It was for me a big turning point and it's gratifying to know that it was a benefit to others like me trying to sort things out.
Freelady. I know you're going to have a hard time believing this, but, when I first landed in ex-TWi world, my beliefs and attitude were exactly like yours. I believed deeply in the accuracy of the PFAL class and just thought the Way's problems were all practical; not doctrinal. I prided myself on my knowledge of PFAL and often confronted people who seemed to have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater". But as I eventually discovered, the more closely you look at it, the more shaky it becomes.
PFAL is designed, imo, for people who want to believe in the Bible and want life to be simple. Im sorry but it's just not like that. The "class" offers a lot of truth and a few significant benefits. Yes, some good things occurred in my life after I took the class. But if you stop there, your journey with God and Christ will never mature. Accepting PFAL as the truth of God's Word is kind of like being satisfied with a sixth grade education. You learn some basic things, but you never really learn to think like an adult. YOu get a smattering of education, but not a complete education. The class gives you the senst that you know the bible, but all you really know is what VP assumed about the Bible. The real Bible remains a mystery to most PFAL grads. And then, when someone shows it to them, they get indignant or just can't handle it.
(Cue Jack Nicholson)
Anyway, Freelady I wholeheartedly encourage you to crank up your VCR and watch the class. But pause the tape, get out your concordance, slow down, and THINK about what's being taught. Check and see if that's what the Bible really says.
Is God really incapable of communicating directly with the mind of a "natural man"?
Does the word pros really mean "together with yet distinctly independent of", or is it just a common preposition used hundreds of times in the New Tesatment?
Does II Peter I:20 really mean we're not supposed to think when we read the Bible? Or is the context referring instead to where the Bible came from?
Did David really want to chop of Nathan's head?
Did David really have the right to any woman in the kingdom? If so, why did Nathan reprove him about taking another man's wife?
Does allos really mean another when there are more than two involved?
If the Bible explains itself then why are there "Orientalisms"?
I could go on, and on, and on, but you get the picture. I'll give you a little hint. All of the questions above indicate clear documentable examples of where the PFAL class contradicts the Bible. And that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. :-) There's lots more. So by all means dust off the tapes and take another look at PFAL. But this time, do it with your mind engaged instead of putting your brain in neutral.
Peace
JerryB
I understand you so much. To me the class is a way to get the word out to people who don't know the word.
My brain is hardly ever in neutral. I hate to say this, but I left twi early because I knew something wasn't right to begin with in the way it was being ran. I liked the drs teachings. But everyone put him up on a pedestal and there was something weird to me about that. I was not going to be in any group that I had to separate myself from my family because they didn't believe like I did," Jevoah Witness" came to mind. But I did understand the Bible more, thank you for the heads up and I will bring out my concordance. And I also have all the written scripts which will help. And see to me if there was 4 with Jesus on the cross or if Adam and Eve had a belly button or not is a personal belief, and I don't think it will get you in or keep you out of Heaven. Thank you for your kind words. I just want to be more like my friends in Tenn. I want to be able to have a home fellowship and teach the word. And the PFAL class is a start. I also read alot in the www.truthortradition.com site.
I have a wonderful friend who believes more strongly than I do about this. I hope he won't ever be mad at me.
Free Lady, you sound like a really nice person. I wouldn`t want you to feel attacked or uncomfortable here, but I would like to ask you some questions if that is ok.
Have you familiarized yourself with the teacher of that class?
Are you aware that the things that *weren`t quite right* went to him as the very source?
I think that if you understood the magnitude of his cruelty and abuse, you might not be so willing to trust his spiritual/doctrinal pov.
Folks here didn`t get cynical over night. ...So before I promoted ANYTHING that this man (or anybody else for that matter) published, I would darned well get to know him better....lest you be guilty of leading people into darkness and bondage in SPITE of your best efforts.
I am not trying to be melodramatic, but if you didn`t stay with twi...you probably didn`t see the tragic results of where strict adherance to vpw`s doctrines took so many.
If you are looking for good classes with great information untainted by the selfishness, alcoholism, sexual abuse and just plain ruined lives that vpw left in his wake....Why not try a healthy source? Kenneth and Gloria Copeland or Joyce Meyers comes to mind.
When we had a fellowship at our karate school, there was a variety of really good solid biblical teachers to be enjoyed.
Exactly Rascal(love that avatar :) ) vp with his past involving twi and with a path of shattered lives and even before twi and what has been said about that time period about his life. It makes one think of the motives that spawned pfal. Was it taught in love, did he teach it to bring people to God or to himself (I bet the latter)? Yes he taught "some" truth but IMO he taught a lot of bunk that he thought he could put his name on to make people come to him and not God. If I am right about any of this, pfal is not to bring people to God but bring people to a man who used the scripture to twist to his own lifestyle.
And see to me if there was 4 with Jesus on the cross or if Adam and Eve had a belly button or not is a personal belief, and I don't think it will get you in or keep you out of Heaven. Thank you for your kind words.
Freelady, if those aren't "deal breakers" for you... I would suggest looking around your area for other sources of fellowship. You have to consider the source of PFAL, to deny it... well... you can find others. Have you looked around your area? Or are you looking back fondly through rose colored glasses. What becomes of these people (that you're running the class for) when they look on the interenet and find out all of the krap associated with this man, this ministry, this class?
Or do you plan to sit there with them and say "OK now, don't pay attention to that... just pay attention to this"??? How confused do you think they'll be? How do you think they'll feel that this class was the primary recruiting tool for getting people to join a cult? If your intentions are to bring people to "the Word" and God, there's so many more 'righteous' groups out there that can help you and them.
I just want to be more like my friends in Tenn. I want to be able to have a home fellowship and teach the word. And the PFAL class is a start. I also read alot in the www.truthortradition.com site.
I have a wonderful friend who believes more strongly than I do about this. I hope he won't ever be mad at me.
You can have Bible studies and home fellowships without PFAL.
It makes one think of the motives that spawned pfal. Was it taught in love, did he teach it to bring people to God or to himself (I bet the latter)? Yes he taught "some" truth but IMO he taught a lot of bunk that he thought he could put his name on to make people come to him and not God.
That's the problem in a nutshell, imo. VPW called himself 'the teacher' and made a really big deal about it...as did most who took piffle or hung around twi for any length of time...and vpw was too often referred to and took the role of 'our father in the word'.
Look at the different perspective Jesus has about 'the teacher' and 'the father':
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:8-12 (NIV)
"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet." John 13:13, 14 (NIV)
VPW exalted himself above all. VPW tried to take the place of Jesus and God in our lives.
If anybody wants to pass that on to anybody else...especially in the face of all the evidence of the evil that this brings into people's lives...well, then that anybody is willfully blind at best...willfully passing on evil at worst.
I used to feel the same way. But over the years I have learned that the information was twisted when presented in pfal...and was so subtle and damning that to get any real good out of the information I had to dump it all and re-study it from the original researcher's information.
More than anything, though, the 'believing=receiving' that is the cornerstone of vpw's presentation in pfal is very, very damaging stuff.
We really like PFAL, perhaps not TWI leadership so much, but we have generally enjoyed the PFAL class.
With the video now all on DVD it is fairly handy.
Hi Galen.
Apparently you like it so much that you can't stand the idea that anyone else sees errors in it. I posted a message on your ex-TWI mailing list*, which is supposed to be an opportunity to share what we're studying. When I revealed that what I was studying didn't fit with the PFAL mindset, I was suddenly no longer on the list! Imagine my surprise.
Tell me Galen, do you support TWI's Mark & Avoid policy? Do you think it was based on Craig Martindale's spiritual wisdom or on the fear of dissent? I don't expect you to support what TWI did to many of us here, but that's what you did to me.
Funny how liking PFAL makes people afraid to hear alternative viewpoints. If PFAL is supposed to give you the keys to the Word's understanding and make you more than a conqueror, why are its most devoted students afraid to engage in an honest discussion of the class's merits?
Peace
JerryB
*Galen hosts an email group called TWI-1@yahoogroups.com. The weekly message--which for some mysterious reason, I no longer receive--says that he remembers a time in the Way when we all studied the Word and he wants to hear about what we're studying.
and if you look at piffle it(the word) surley does not fit like a hand in a glove. Also the more of the life I live. It(piffle) has a ton of practical error. If one was to apply everything in pfal to their lives you will not have sucsess. Pfal is a dream world.
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Tom Strange
Me in bold.
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shazdancer
Geez, and what about those poor schmucks who don't have God's-accurate-word in Swahili? Mandarin? French? What, God isn't spitting in their direction?
Aw c'mon Raf, I thought "la de da de dee" was pretty funny. Mike may be narcissistic, but he DOES often have a sense of humor.
Shaz
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Jbarrax
Here's the updated version JJ. All the links have bee updated just this evening.
PFAL REVIEW
Actually, if everyone had the opportunity to really scruitinze the class with an open mind, it would be great learning. As Rafael said, we could separate truth from error more completely and get a better handle on truth without clogging our minds with the half-truths and errors woven throughout PFAL. One of the most beneficial things that happened to me was a Corps couple giving me a copy of the class on VHS. I could never have seen all the errors that were discussed in the PFAL Review by just reading the book.
With VHS, I was able to go at my own pace and check the material against the Scriptures. That can be a real eye opening experience.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of those who will sit through PFAL again do so with their eyes closed mentally and spiritually. Just a pleasant rehash of a long lost utotpia. Kind of sad really. There are good things in the class to be sure, but there are even better things you can find by identifying the wrong doctrines and asking God to show you what the real truth is.
JerryB
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ljn698
self-seeking false ministers of tradition, eh?
good job some of us learned to steer clear of guys like that!
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JumpinJive
Thanks for the updated link Jerry. Speaking of excitement, I also remember how thrilled I was when I first started reading the PFAL REVIEW thread. The excitement was at least on par with PFAL. And lasted a lot longer! Thanks for all your work on that. Everyone else too!
-JJ
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Belle
Yes, Jerry, thank you ever so much for all your hard work on that and for keeping it where we can access it. Thanks to everyone else who seriously considered, studied and contributed to that information.
I can't even begin to explain what a help that was to me when I was starting out questioning everything we had been taught. There's just no words and now way I could thank you for how much that helped me.
Regarding that group in Belize.... I knew there had been a discussion on them sometime ago and FINALLY found the thread. This may shed some more light on who they are:
Living Tree Academy
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freelady
I have been reading everyone's response to my class. I am not saying that this class is THE ONLY TRUTH, but this class is a kick start to knowing the Bible, especially for those who have never studied the Bible. God is so good and I don't care if 4 were on the cross with Jesus or if Adam and Eve had a belly button or not et. Those are personal beliefs, I don't think will get you in or out of Heaven. Have none of you that oppose this class ever had anything good happen to them after they took this class, has not some of this knowledge helped them in any way. I never agreed with a lot of actions that I saw 30 years ago that is one reason why I never stayed in, BUT the scriptures that I learned in the PFAL class always stuck with me. And I want to give others the opportunity to hear what I did. There has to be a lot of hurt and I pray God will give each one the peace to get over it. ( I know I am going to get slammed now) I won't charge for this class and maybe I can help someone else get a new lease on life. I have gotten alot of good response to this class which made me smile.
Agape Love Everyone Margaux
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George Aar
Freelady,
I get the impression that you feel "The Class" is somewhat akin to those chain letters we get every now and then. You know, the ones with some innocuous prayer and a guarantee that - if you don't break the chain all sorts of good stuff will happen to you.
Personally, all I saw in my 15 years of obeisance to the dictates of said class was: a new address every year or so, a different group of "friends" every year or so, who really never got to know me (or I them), a different job every year or so, no roots, no sense of community, no REAL family life, no nuthin'. Just a lot of mindless dedication to someone else's supposed "goals".
To summarize my feelings about PFAL content, well, it's pretty basic Bible study sort of fare with few provocative entries and a lot of REALLY questionable "principles". I.E. - "The Law of Believing", which is utter nonsense (yes, you may quote me on that), "The Law of Giving and Receiving" (ditto), the "principle" of "receive, retain, release" (again, more nonsense), and the topper was the parlor trick of "Speaking in tongues" (BLATANT B.S.) which, contrary to Mr. Wierwille's adomnition, IS gibberish.
And in the pursuit of all things Holy, due to the sense of urgency and importance that was attributed to the class materials, we all put our REAL lives on hold for whatever length of time we spent in TWI. We gave a lot, accomplished little, and a very few jerkoffs at the top of the "WayTree" made out like bandits.
You'll pardon me if I'm not overly enthused that people are trying to resurrect this Bible blather again. If you like it, be my guest, but I remain underwhelmed...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Gosh George...Don't you see the value of sitting through the "class" again?
...I mean, if you tell a lie often enough, people will be more likely to believe it! The constant repetition of Wierwillian doctrine...over and over and over and over...until the glassy eyed individual has spittle running down their chin..."shanta Lo Kalamista" they cry out at the end, giving absolute proof that they have bought into this universe of fantasy...
Move to Belize and start selling pfal materials on the internet!...Begora! why didn't I think of that? Is 8th corps Gilmore shopping for his own personal jet yet?
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freelady
I am so sorry you feel that way. Even the law of giving is evident in the secular world. I am sorry you had to sit under a dictatorship, as I see it, it was short of being a cult. I guess I was lucky and took the good and ran with it, although I wish I had ran harder. I personally know the power of speaking in tongues and I knew about that before the PFAL class when I knew nothing of twi. We live in a spiritual realm and there are laws we should live by, and I prefer to take Gods way. You can change lives with alot of the knowledge in the class. Look at the people that follow Benny Hinn (I spell that right?) that man will really answer to God, for ripping people off. so gotta go just my thoughts, thank you for listening.
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Tom Strange
me in bold:
just my opinions... but there really is so much you can do for folks without involving them in PFAL which subtly does so many other things to folks...
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Jbarrax
You're quite welcome. and thank you for the kind words. The wonderful thing about the PFAL Review was that it became a group effort, a sort of online bible study. Many people contributed including Raf, Catcup, The Evan, Steve Lortz, et al. It was for me a big turning point and it's gratifying to know that it was a benefit to others like me trying to sort things out.
Freelady. I know you're going to have a hard time believing this, but, when I first landed in ex-TWi world, my beliefs and attitude were exactly like yours. I believed deeply in the accuracy of the PFAL class and just thought the Way's problems were all practical; not doctrinal. I prided myself on my knowledge of PFAL and often confronted people who seemed to have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater". But as I eventually discovered, the more closely you look at it, the more shaky it becomes.
PFAL is designed, imo, for people who want to believe in the Bible and want life to be simple. Im sorry but it's just not like that. The "class" offers a lot of truth and a few significant benefits. Yes, some good things occurred in my life after I took the class. But if you stop there, your journey with God and Christ will never mature. Accepting PFAL as the truth of God's Word is kind of like being satisfied with a sixth grade education. You learn some basic things, but you never really learn to think like an adult. YOu get a smattering of education, but not a complete education. The class gives you the senst that you know the bible, but all you really know is what VP assumed about the Bible. The real Bible remains a mystery to most PFAL grads. And then, when someone shows it to them, they get indignant or just can't handle it.
(Cue Jack Nicholson)
Anyway, Freelady I wholeheartedly encourage you to crank up your VCR and watch the class. But pause the tape, get out your concordance, slow down, and THINK about what's being taught. Check and see if that's what the Bible really says.
Is God really incapable of communicating directly with the mind of a "natural man"?
Does the word pros really mean "together with yet distinctly independent of", or is it just a common preposition used hundreds of times in the New Tesatment?
Does II Peter I:20 really mean we're not supposed to think when we read the Bible? Or is the context referring instead to where the Bible came from?
Did David really want to chop of Nathan's head?
Did David really have the right to any woman in the kingdom? If so, why did Nathan reprove him about taking another man's wife?
Does allos really mean another when there are more than two involved?
If the Bible explains itself then why are there "Orientalisms"?
I could go on, and on, and on, but you get the picture. I'll give you a little hint. All of the questions above indicate clear documentable examples of where the PFAL class contradicts the Bible. And that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. :-) There's lots more. So by all means dust off the tapes and take another look at PFAL. But this time, do it with your mind engaged instead of putting your brain in neutral.
Peace
JerryB
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What The Hey
If that's the case, then so much time/effort/money was certainly wasted by TWI translating the PFAL class/materials into Spanish/French, etc. And we were convinced it was God's Will to do so.
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freelady
I understand you so much. To me the class is a way to get the word out to people who don't know the word.
My brain is hardly ever in neutral. I hate to say this, but I left twi early because I knew something wasn't right to begin with in the way it was being ran. I liked the drs teachings. But everyone put him up on a pedestal and there was something weird to me about that. I was not going to be in any group that I had to separate myself from my family because they didn't believe like I did," Jevoah Witness" came to mind. But I did understand the Bible more, thank you for the heads up and I will bring out my concordance. And I also have all the written scripts which will help. And see to me if there was 4 with Jesus on the cross or if Adam and Eve had a belly button or not is a personal belief, and I don't think it will get you in or keep you out of Heaven. Thank you for your kind words. I just want to be more like my friends in Tenn. I want to be able to have a home fellowship and teach the word. And the PFAL class is a start. I also read alot in the www.truthortradition.com site.
I have a wonderful friend who believes more strongly than I do about this. I hope he won't ever be mad at me.
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rascal
Free Lady, you sound like a really nice person. I wouldn`t want you to feel attacked or uncomfortable here, but I would like to ask you some questions if that is ok.
Have you familiarized yourself with the teacher of that class?
Are you aware that the things that *weren`t quite right* went to him as the very source?
I think that if you understood the magnitude of his cruelty and abuse, you might not be so willing to trust his spiritual/doctrinal pov.
Folks here didn`t get cynical over night. ...So before I promoted ANYTHING that this man (or anybody else for that matter) published, I would darned well get to know him better....lest you be guilty of leading people into darkness and bondage in SPITE of your best efforts.
I am not trying to be melodramatic, but if you didn`t stay with twi...you probably didn`t see the tragic results of where strict adherance to vpw`s doctrines took so many.
If you are looking for good classes with great information untainted by the selfishness, alcoholism, sexual abuse and just plain ruined lives that vpw left in his wake....Why not try a healthy source? Kenneth and Gloria Copeland or Joyce Meyers comes to mind.
When we had a fellowship at our karate school, there was a variety of really good solid biblical teachers to be enjoyed.
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Bramble
I guess living through the nineties pretty much ruined PFAL and other Way doctrines for me. It's something I just want to distance myself from.
I'm sure I would feel entirely differently if I'd left in the eighties as part of the exodus.
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justloafing
Exactly Rascal(love that avatar :) ) vp with his past involving twi and with a path of shattered lives and even before twi and what has been said about that time period about his life. It makes one think of the motives that spawned pfal. Was it taught in love, did he teach it to bring people to God or to himself (I bet the latter)? Yes he taught "some" truth but IMO he taught a lot of bunk that he thought he could put his name on to make people come to him and not God. If I am right about any of this, pfal is not to bring people to God but bring people to a man who used the scripture to twist to his own lifestyle.
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Tom Strange
Freelady, if those aren't "deal breakers" for you... I would suggest looking around your area for other sources of fellowship. You have to consider the source of PFAL, to deny it... well... you can find others. Have you looked around your area? Or are you looking back fondly through rose colored glasses. What becomes of these people (that you're running the class for) when they look on the interenet and find out all of the krap associated with this man, this ministry, this class?
Or do you plan to sit there with them and say "OK now, don't pay attention to that... just pay attention to this"??? How confused do you think they'll be? How do you think they'll feel that this class was the primary recruiting tool for getting people to join a cult? If your intentions are to bring people to "the Word" and God, there's so many more 'righteous' groups out there that can help you and them.
You can have Bible studies and home fellowships without PFAL.
THIS is what PFAL leads to...
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CoolWaters
That's the problem in a nutshell, imo. VPW called himself 'the teacher' and made a really big deal about it...as did most who took piffle or hung around twi for any length of time...and vpw was too often referred to and took the role of 'our father in the word'.
Look at the different perspective Jesus has about 'the teacher' and 'the father':
VPW exalted himself above all. VPW tried to take the place of Jesus and God in our lives.
If anybody wants to pass that on to anybody else...especially in the face of all the evidence of the evil that this brings into people's lives...well, then that anybody is willfully blind at best...willfully passing on evil at worst.
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Galen
Too bad.
We really like PFAL, perhaps not TWI leadership so much, but we have generally enjoyed the PFAL class.
With the video now all on DVD it is fairly handy.
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CoolWaters
Mark,
I used to feel the same way. But over the years I have learned that the information was twisted when presented in pfal...and was so subtle and damning that to get any real good out of the information I had to dump it all and re-study it from the original researcher's information.
More than anything, though, the 'believing=receiving' that is the cornerstone of vpw's presentation in pfal is very, very damaging stuff.
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Jbarrax
Hi Galen.
Apparently you like it so much that you can't stand the idea that anyone else sees errors in it. I posted a message on your ex-TWI mailing list*, which is supposed to be an opportunity to share what we're studying. When I revealed that what I was studying didn't fit with the PFAL mindset, I was suddenly no longer on the list! Imagine my surprise.
Tell me Galen, do you support TWI's Mark & Avoid policy? Do you think it was based on Craig Martindale's spiritual wisdom or on the fear of dissent? I don't expect you to support what TWI did to many of us here, but that's what you did to me.
Funny how liking PFAL makes people afraid to hear alternative viewpoints. If PFAL is supposed to give you the keys to the Word's understanding and make you more than a conqueror, why are its most devoted students afraid to engage in an honest discussion of the class's merits?
Peace
JerryB
*Galen hosts an email group called TWI-1@yahoogroups.com. The weekly message--which for some mysterious reason, I no longer receive--says that he remembers a time in the Way when we all studied the Word and he wants to hear about what we're studying.
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dmiller
Galen -- as much as I (do/did) like the precepts in pfal,
it's kinda hard to ignore what Jerry, and Raf have been saying about it.
The *opposition* they offer is not based on hard feelings,
but rather on thoughtfully examined scripture.
Now --- I'm not gonna say don't run the class anymore,
but have you ever considered printing out some of the stuff
these two have taught us, and used that as a class?
Novel thought, I know. But more truth in the end.
And that's what you're looking for -- right? :)
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justloafing
and if you look at piffle it(the word) surley does not fit like a hand in a glove. Also the more of the life I live. It(piffle) has a ton of practical error. If one was to apply everything in pfal to their lives you will not have sucsess. Pfal is a dream world.
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