PFAL Class

[allan w.]

Thanks Goey..I'm VERY comfortable ! Also I just noticed the word 'structure' was used by Guessalot, not 'system' as I quoted, but I s'pose in this case the two words can be interchanged.

[Oakspear]

Pointing out errors in other religious systems when confronted with errors in TWI doctrine and practice is a logical fallcy of distraction, specifically the fallacy of changing the subject, subcategory, attacking the person or position of the one bringing up the error.

This board is about TWI, set up to "give the other side", the answer to TWI's claims. The Catholics, Mormons, whoever else has error; so what? We're talking about TWI.

Another thing that I see that gets out of hand IMHO is the use of analogy. Analogies illustate the point, they aren't the point themselves. Comparing something in TWI to something else doesn't prove anything, and finding a point of dissimilarity in the analogy doesn't disprove anything either.

[Goey]

By Oldiesman

"And it is for this very reason why I believe Dr. Wierwille's life was in harmony with God and Jesus Christ, when he was in harmony with them.

When he wasn't, he wasn't."

Huh? ... When "he" was in harmony, "his life" was in harmony .. ???

So how does that work in practice? Lemme Guess ....

When the pants came off - *poof* no harmony. When the pants went back on and the deed was done, bible and drambuie hand .......... poof ! ... Instant harmony again!

Edited March 28, 2006 by Goey

[sirguessalot]

seeing as how the manifestations came up....if anyone is interested

if am gonna stick my neck out and point yall towards a related thread in the dungeon

rather than just waste as much server space on it here

here is the thread

and here is the part i wanted to copy here:

is that i now think that the speaking in tongues of acts and corinthians was no where near the same as the prayer practices as we were taught in pfal

(tho that kind of thing is beneficial, but more like an esoteric and overblown contemplative practice)

but to speak in tongues, is simply to speak of life in terms of a spectrum of realities

and to interpret tongues, is simply to explain how this might work

not a supernatural power, per se

but definately a big big step into our greater god-given/inherent capacity for greater transmission of understanding between humans via dialogue

Edited March 28, 2006 by sirguessalot

[oldiesman]

Pointing out errors in other religious systems when confronted with errors in TWI doctrine and practice is a logical fallcy of distraction, specifically the fallacy of changing the subject ...

Pointing out other religions has a purpose in that it is good food for thought.

It asks of the viewer the basic question, "would you think that of another church that you may like, or a sinner with a different church", or "would you have the same relentless finger-pointing condemnational intensity" who's members in the other church do the same thing, or worse?

It may help cut some hypocritical thinking, and help to keep some things in perspective.

[Tom Strange]

OM, what you say may be a valid point but this practice IS USED by TWI as a means of defense either to distract the 'issue' away from them and onto others or to minimize their 'apparent' problems... you know that, I know that, we all know that...

[Goey]

Pointing out other religions has a purpose in that it is good food for thought.

It asks of the viewer the basic question, "would you think that of another church that you may like, or a sinner with a different church", or "would you have the same relentless finger-pointing condemnational intensity" who's members in the other church do the same thing, or worse?

It may help cut some hypocritical thinking, and help to keep some things in perspective.

Wrong. It is a distraction as Oak pointed out. Why? -- Because is not relevant to the topic at hand.

Whether or not it even asks a question is debatable. Even it if does, the question itself is irrelevant to the debate. (Offers no evidence one way or another concering TWI/PFAL)

Your "question" (as explained) is irrelevant as it concludes hypocracy of those adressing the failings of TWI/PFAL by presuming as a fact that they have" relentless finger-pointing condemnational intensity", The implication being that if they were not hypocrites they would/should be doing the same to other religions. Pure Ad hominem and distraction. No substance at all.

Oldies, you have once again ignored the fact that this forum is not about pointing out the failings of other religions. Futhermore you have no knowledge whatsoever how folks here respond to other religions away fiom this site ( even if it mattered). We don't generally discuss them here.

I could hardly take any attempt from you to " help cut some hypocritical thinking" very seriously.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Goey

[Kim]

Hello.......I am new here. But I just recieved the PFAL class on dvd and I am going to hold a class here in my home Daytona Florida. The people who attend will be new and will not know anything about twi, all they will get is a real Bible study. I am excitied about this. I took the class in 74 and moved away and was blessed to meet someone a few months ago who could get me the class. Because I have never forgotten the studies. I guess I am lucky I didn't go through what you all did. And I don't know anyone in twi now. I just want people to hear what I heard back then.

[T-Bone]

[JustThinking]

I see the Belizean offshoot selling books on ebay--brand new books. The prevailing word editions which means someone has to be getting those from twi. I wonder how they are able to do this since twi doesn't sell books to people no longer involved? I'm surprised they want to sell prevailing word editions since there were edits made to those books to accommodate the "new" doctrines of twi.

So then there is/was someone reviewing every order? I guess when you're as small as they are now, it shouldn't be too hard to pick out non-members.

[Mike]

Look at the dates.

I looked into all this two years ago, and can report that these items are basically obsolete.

Edited July 7, 2008 by Mike

[pawtucket]

Look at the dates, people.

I looked into all this two years ago, and can report that these items are basically obsolete.

PEOPLE!!!!! Did you really address everyone like that?

[cheranne]

Look at the dates.

I looked into all this two years ago, and can report that these items are basically obsolete.

"expiration date" yes its like old gross food,make you sick cause nausea and vommitting,do not

take under the influence of alcohol,may cause dizzyness,drowsiness and alternate states of lying,

stealing and killing the spirit,and will produce a NOT SO ABUNDENT LIFE

Run away,do not pass go or collect 200 dollars.

[lucyvanpelt]

Freelady, I believe that. That's what happened to me, too.

same thing happened to me too. i prayed God came to my rescue. Still works that way today.

[Ham]

Maybe one could attach a few conditions to the prayer..

"God, send some one to save me. If he is a womanizing, abusive, plagiaristic, egotistical, arrogant sob who just wants to inflate his importance in history as only told by him, don't bother."

:)

[What The Hey]

Maybe one could attach a few conditions to the prayer..

"God, send some one to save me. If he is a womanizing, abusive, plagiaristic, egotistical, arrogant sob who just wants to inflate his importance in history as only told by him, don't bother."

:)

How did you manage to figure that, since no one I know has ever prayed like that in their time of need or desperation. There are plenty of places I see where God uses some really big "srew-ups" to reach the other really big "screw-ups" that are out there. They wouldn't have listened to them otherwise - lack of experience.

[lucyvanpelt]

I am so blessed that that entire experience did not leave us jaded.

I am so very happy that I proved all things and held fast to that which is good. God's Word is good.

[T-Bone]

Maybe one could attach a few conditions to the prayer..

"God, send some one to save me. If he is a womanizing, abusive, plagiaristic, egotistical, arrogant sob who just wants to inflate his importance in history as only told by him, don't bother."

:)

How did you manage to figure that, since no one I know has ever prayed like that in their time of need or desperation. There are plenty of places I see where God uses some really big "srew-ups" to reach the other really big "screw-ups" that are out there. They wouldn't have listened to them otherwise - lack of experience.

I thought Ham made an excellent point about the subtle power of spiritual abuse [which is also the title of a great book by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen….anyone who was ever involved in TWI ought to read it!].

As far as a statement like "There are plenty of places I see where God uses some really big "srew-ups" to reach the other really big "screw-ups" that are out there" , I was wondering if that is a reference to biblical passages or personal viewpoint. I'm thinking it has to be personal viewpoint, because there's plenty of places in the Bible that warn us of the "really big screw-ups." Jesus' bold expose of the hypocrisy of certain religious leaders and telling us to beware of their leaven [toxic influential doctrine] come to mind.

IMHO a major theme of the Bible is about change…repentance…Yeah, we're all sinners – but isn't a part of the Christian life an ongoing process of change…trying to become more Christ-like? If the Bible promoted hypocrisy – that would be counterproductive to this goal – would it not?

Edited July 11, 2008 by T-Bone

[J0nny Ling0]

Hi there Free Lady!

I just want to weigh in that I too prayed to God to save me and show me the way to his peace and salvation. The very next morning, a WOW Ambassador came to work where I worked, and she was radiant, kind and loving. A living Godsend. She opened the book of Ephesians to me before the day was over, and showed me some of the incredible gems there. I was simply hoping that I was "worthy enough to hopefully and possibly be saved from hell fire and brimstone", and had no idea that there was so much available to me as one of God's children once I was born again! My mind was blown at His quick and timely response. And so, I don't know how all this stuff works, as far as God plucking me out of the muck via a person promoting The Way Ministry, but I do know that somehow God worked in the life of Balaam, who was "crookeder" than a dog's hind leg. "For your way is perverse before me" said the Lord to Balaam, yet God spoke to him and worked within him, somehow, someway...

Numbers 22:20-38

And, that record of Balaam's a$$ talking to him really does crack me up! Here, read it, but remember that the word "a$$" is not allowed here at the GSC as it is allowed in the Bible, so it will appear as the word "foot":

Numbers 22:20-38 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

20And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do.

21And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his foot, and went with the princes of Moab.

22And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his foot, and his two servants were with him.

23And the foot saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the foot turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the foot, to turn her into the way.

24But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.

25And when the foot saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.

26And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

27And when the foot saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the foot with a staff.

28And the LORD opened the mouth of the foot, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

29And Balaam said unto the foot, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.

30And the foot said unto Balaam, Am not I thine foot, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.

31Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

32And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine foot these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

33And the foot saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

34And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.

35And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.

36And when Balak heard that Balaam was come, he went out to meet him unto a city of Moab, which is in the border of Arnon, which is in the utmost coast.

37And Balak said unto Balaam, Did I not earnestly send unto thee to call thee? wherefore camest thou not unto me? am I not able indeed to promote thee to honour?

38And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.

First of all, I added the bold type in the one verse for emphasis of my point.

I mean, Balaam was so blind that his dang donkey had more spiritual insight than he did! Too funny! Yet, somehow, God chose to work within that dude. And that was OT, not post Pentecost, after the Gift was given, after our complete and total once and for all redemption. So, how does it all work together? I dunno, but one Day we will know as we are also known...

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jonny Lingo

[Tzaia]

I have been reading everyone's response to my class. I am not saying that this class is THE ONLY TRUTH, but this class is a kick start to knowing the Bible, especially for those who have never studied the Bible. God is so good and I don't care if 4 were on the cross with Jesus or if Adam and Eve had a belly button or not et. Those are personal beliefs, I don't think will get you in or out of Heaven. Have none of you that oppose this class ever had anything good happen to them after they took this class, has not some of this knowledge helped them in any way. I never agreed with a lot of actions that I saw 30 years ago that is one reason why I never stayed in, BUT the scriptures that I learned in the PFAL class always stuck with me. And I want to give others the opportunity to hear what I did. There has to be a lot of hurt and I pray God will give each one the peace to get over it. ( I know I am going to get slammed now) I won't charge for this class and maybe I can help someone else get a new lease on life. I have gotten alot of good response to this class which made me smile. Agape Love Everyone Margaux

I would like to agree with you, but I can't. The class, as it is presented, it designed not to be a study, but more of an indoctrination. Study involves reflection. For me, study involves discussion. With the format offered in 3 hour chunks with no discussion of points, it loses the study aspect, at least for me.

It's been a long time since I've taken "the class," but one of the things I believe it does at the outset is set a tone for how other Christians are to be viewed - namely as stupid for believing things that are not the "obvious truth." Like most other Bible "studies," it is designed to lead you to a conclusion - one of those conclusions is that you are stupid to trust anyone outside of the organization because others have deceived you, perhaps unknowingly, but nevertheless deceived. I've sat through the class twice; once before reading the books, and then after as a team member. The second time I was bored out of my mind and found the continuous repetition mind-numbing. I was also more aware of the attempt to tap into people's emotions the second time.

The other thing the class does is set a person up to feel "special" for having all this "information" that is not shared throughout the Christian community.

I will tell you one thing that the PFAL class did for me - that was open me up to critical study of scripture, but I think that was an inadvertent side effect. I took the admonition to "don't take my word for it" as a kind of challenge. I didn't. Once through the class I read all the books and then started a critical review of the books compared to scripture and came away with my own conclusions, which didn't go over too well in my twig. I do believe the class will trigger critical thinking for certain types of people, but the typical PFAL grad has a huge need to stand out in some way and be accepted - something that was probably missing in a former life. Being told they are "called out" and "special" for having taken the class does something to these people, even as they are being abused by the system that tells them they are so special. I also think that it attracts more than its fair share of people with personality disorders, because it fills a need.

I am reminded of Jesus' first great commandment, which is to love one another. I truly believe that instead of teaching the great truth - that we are to love one another - that the class teaches us to be wary of others and it leads to qualifying that statement, when I see no qualification. Furthermore, PFAL drills down the definition of "born again" to what is assumed is a very broad spectrum, but it ends up being just as, if not more restrictive, than a typical flaming trinitarian's view of what constitutes being "born again" or a believer.

I believe that "knowing" whether believing equals receiving, it was 3 or 5 crucified, how many times Peter denied Jesus, or whether one speaks in tongues is the true sign of receiving the spirit is irrelevant to Jesus' basic message. That message gets buried in all the the details of "knowing that you know that you know" and becomes lost. Is that really what you want for these people?

Edited July 11, 2008 by Tzaia

[Ham]

Considering some of the people who prayed that little prayer "gawd save me" were abused.. and "gawd" sent a sexual, criminal, deviant scumbucket to bring more abuse..

I would say the devil answers prayer as well.

"b-b-b-b but, da man has such FAITH.."

I've read something about how devils believe..

I really think the people the vicster actually "helped" didn't need help to begin with..

[Ham]

My opinion.. I think he gave us the PROBLEM, then sold us the CURE. Kind of like, "free beer". But the beer is poisoned.. the beer is free, but not the antidote.. and one dose of antidote won't really fix things.. have to take one class after another, give until it hurts.

I think we were sold problems which we never really had to begin with.

The sell was so effective, some here are still convinced that if it wasn't for der vey and the "greatness" of pfal and all, they'd be either dead, unsaved for eternity, or living a miserable existence on day after the next, spending life as a "homo", or God forbid, a trinitarian.

They seem as convinced of the induced "problem" as they are of the manufactured "solution".

When I was young, I didn't have any real problems that a little grief counselling and an education couldn't fix.

[waysider]

Great post, Tzaia!

[cman]

So yeah there was help for a moment for some.

Are they going to sit on that moment and make it their God forever?

Are they going to be able to see past that moment?

Pfal was help for some for a bit of time.

Yeah, got it. Me too.

It was only temporary though.

And we saw what we were not looking for.

Like the CURSE of THE LAW.

Needed for a time.

But then it's time to move on.

Though THE LAW was better then pfal.

[lucyvanpelt]

I would like to agree with you, but I can't. The class, as it is presented, it designed not to be a study, but more of an indoctrination. Study involves reflection. For me, study involves discussion. With the format offered in 3 hour chunks with no discussion of points, it loses the study aspect, at least for me.

[b][/b]That's a great point. Classrooms are not always quiet places, where you can't ask questions til the end, what if you can't wait, til the end?

It's been a long time since I've taken "the class," but one of the things I believe it does at the outset is set a tone for how other Christians are to be viewed - namely as stupid for believing things that are not the "obvious truth." Like most other Bible "studies," it is designed to lead you to a conclusion - one of those conclusions is that you are stupid to trust anyone outside of the organization because others have deceived you, perhaps unknowingly, but nevertheless deceived. I've sat through the class twice; once before reading the books, and then after as a team member. The second time I was bored out of my mind and found the continuous repetition mind-numbing. I was also more aware of the attempt to tap into people's emotions the second time.

The other thing the class does is set a person up to feel "special" for having all this "information" that is not shared throughout the Christian community.

I will tell you one thing that the PFAL class did for me - that was open me up to critical study of scripture, but I think that was an inadvertent side effect. I took the admonition to "don't take my word for it" as a kind of challenge.

I did, I never took anybody's word for anything. And I have found, among other things, that dispensational theology is unscriptural. wrath dnd tribulation are NOT synonomous, falling away is not flyin up, it is not a departure upward, and that the gathering together and the resurrection of the just ARE the same event. Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good. God expects that. It's a requirement for a workman

I didn't. Once through the class I read all the books and then started a critical review of the books compared to scripture and came away with my own conclusions, which didn't go over too well in my twig. I do believe the class will trigger critical thinking for certain types of people, but the typical PFAL grad has a huge need to stand out in some way and be accepted - something that was probably missing in a former life. Being told they are "called out" and "special" for having taken the class does something to these people, even as they are being abused by the system that tells them they are so special. I also think that it attracts more than its fair share of people with personality disorders, because it fills a need. I am reminded of Jesus' first great commandment, which is to love one another. I truly believe that instead of teaching the great truth - that we are to love one another - that the class teaches us to be wary of others and it leads to qualifying that statement, when I see no qualification. Furthermore, PFAL drills down the definition of "born again" to what is assumed is a very broad spectrum, but it ends up being just as, if not more restrictive, than a typical flaming trinitarian's view of what constitutes being "born again" or a believer.

I believe that "knowing" whether believing equals receiving, it was 3 or 5 crucified, how many times Peter denied Jesus, or whether one speaks in tongues is the true sign of receiving the spirit is irrelevant to Jesus' basic message. Well he did tell the 12 to go and wait for the comforter to come. ANd I agree, jesus Christ is who my lord and savior and master, is vitally important to how I handle life.

[b]The statement it's for our learning, as opposed to addressed to us, was a devilish ploy to keep people from experiencing the more abundant life, how can you receive training in the whole word, if you think all but 8 or 9 books don't matter because they are not addressed to you?[/b]

That message gets buried in all the the details of "knowing that you know that you know" and becomes lost. Is that really what you want for these people?

Just some thoughts, I reallys suck at trying to put my thoughts in others posts. Sorry, I hope you get the jist.

Lucy

Edited July 11, 2008 by lucyvanpelt