I can definitely see perfectionism resulting in frustration (life just isn't perfect). And apathy as a compensation technique to that frustration. Yup. But not necessarily the only compensation technique.
oh,,I have treaded those very waters and still do....I am stil realizing and striving to get back to simplicity that he laid his life down for us...I am still a Christian and try to continue in some things I ve learned. But perfectionism is not on the top of my list. Mainly I know I am looking for the deliverance of the Way.. we were in a cookie cutter life style......this probaly does not help much..
Pipes, you have stated it beautifully, don`t doubt your ability to communicate effectively.
What you described is absolutely correct....I didn`t experience it so much in twi because the terror of another face melting or losing God`s favor kept me earnestly striving to the very limits of my ability.
It happened to me when I left twi though.....
I was married to a man who thought that he was helping me to be *better* with his non stop critiscism and complaints.
If the house was clean ...it was pointed out that the yard needed work...if the yard was done and the house looked good...well the meal that was hurridly thrown together because of a lack of time was not very impressive....
It wasn`t even necessarily pointed out in a mean way....but there was ALWAYS something to do a little better....
If I did well in saving money in one area...it was always pointed out where I hadn`t done so well in another.
I finally quit trying....I charted my own course and did what suited the kids and I ...figuring if spouse would yell complain whatever we did....so I quit keeping house....and hunted fossles if it suited us....I didn`t worry if there was dinner before the kids n I left for karate....I made sure there was enough clean dishes to eat off of....the kitchen may or may not have been clean....the laundry was never done...but enough clothes to wear at least that day....he started doing his own....
I simply didn`t give a damn any more because we knew that nothing would ever be good enough.
The UP side is that though the house was no longer up to the former white glove standard....but my kids n I had gone to art classes, the library, found a 25,000 yr old 3 three toed horse tooth and the remains of an ancient indian campsight complete with flint and processed meat bones ...and a stone spade in a hole we dug.
Lol....actually the dear spouse, though it has been difficult has changed with us and made a real effort at curbing his urge to constantly *improve* us....
I personally think that it has something to do with the ministry and in particular ...corpes training, as I visited a woman who had never been way and was quite puzzled with her former corpes husbands nit picking obsessively anal attention to details.
This fellow was so bad that NONE of the boys in the neighborhood would mow their grass any longer at any price because of (in his mind) attempts to *improve* ie nit picking their job. Nothing they did was up to standard....
You are correct pipes, I see this with a lot of ministry people....on both sides...the *helpers* and those who don`t give a damn any more.
The Bible says be ye "Perfect as Christ is perfect"
That said the Bible also says "judge not lest ye be judged"
SO anyone who has the inclination to pointout how imperfect someone else is doing--clearly isn't working on their own "perfection" and needs to redirect their energies to doing so
I can definitely see perfectionism resulting in frustration (life just isn't perfect). And apathy as a compensation technique to that frustration. Yup. But not necessarily the only compensation technique.
Well, it's not frustrating if you actually achieve perfection ... I guess deluding yourself into thinking you are nearly perfect is another compensating technique .... maybe it also helps to misinterpret verses to redefine imperfections as a deeper spiritual understanding of God's will. This goes back to my "VP taught PFAL in light of compensation for his inadequacies" theory. I might need a catchier name for that. :) Of course for the inner sanctum of spiritually receptive elite, the teaching was that sex (and rape?) outside your marriage was not just OK, but recommended ... and collecting money from the poor for your plane and bus....
Or maybe they knew exactly what they were doing ... but I really don't think so, I think even the elite were delusional. VP's answer to being academically inferior was to proclaim himself superior ... but he actually did a pretty good job of selling it to a lot of us ...
What is the topic again? Oh hell, I don't care ...
I don't know if perfectionism is a path to apathy, but it could be a path to depression, for never ever measuring up.
Or a path to rebellion, like Rascal and her house. I think we felt much the same as she did in dumping the house standards that couldn't be lived up to, anyway, when we left the Way. What was the use of trying, anyway?
Probably a good lesson in parenting in there somewhere.
Does the perfectionism lead to the complacency? Does the complacency happen because one feels his/her actions are so insignificant (because the actions never result in meeting the perfectionistic standard), that they cannot have any real impact?
Well anytime there is an impossibly high standard its for sure that many , if not all, will fall short of it. Of course you have to wonder who set the standard and if they are actually capable of living by it. In the case of TWI I think there was an assumption that VPW
was in fact living at the highest level "living the word" when in reality he probably wasn't even doing as good a job of that as a newly minted WOW who was living with 3 other twenty-one year olds who were crammed into an apartment in Boise. But no one knew that. All they knew was that the teachings and meetings had us believing that our journey to the so called abundant life involved taking all the classes, going WOW, maybe Corps, the Rock, the family nights, all twigs, etc until some magical moment when we were suddenly "living the word" and operating "All nine all the time". So in my view those who set the standards knew that they weren't
living anything close to them yet used it to get control over people who though that there was some magic at HQ and those leaders who lived there. That was a trick of the worst sort. Its like the wizard of Oz. Anytime there is an impossibly high standard that no one can live up to there is disappointment as long as you are under the assumption that someone is living at that level - like VPW. But again he wasn't even close to the level he pretended to be.
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markomalley
I can definitely see perfectionism resulting in frustration (life just isn't perfect). And apathy as a compensation technique to that frustration. Yup. But not necessarily the only compensation technique.
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likeaneagle
Bagpipes-
oh,,I have treaded those very waters and still do....I am stil realizing and striving to get back to simplicity that he laid his life down for us...I am still a Christian and try to continue in some things I ve learned. But perfectionism is not on the top of my list. Mainly I know I am looking for the deliverance of the Way.. we were in a cookie cutter life style......this probaly does not help much..
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rascal
Pipes, you have stated it beautifully, don`t doubt your ability to communicate effectively.
What you described is absolutely correct....I didn`t experience it so much in twi because the terror of another face melting or losing God`s favor kept me earnestly striving to the very limits of my ability.
It happened to me when I left twi though.....
I was married to a man who thought that he was helping me to be *better* with his non stop critiscism and complaints.
If the house was clean ...it was pointed out that the yard needed work...if the yard was done and the house looked good...well the meal that was hurridly thrown together because of a lack of time was not very impressive....
It wasn`t even necessarily pointed out in a mean way....but there was ALWAYS something to do a little better....
If I did well in saving money in one area...it was always pointed out where I hadn`t done so well in another.
I finally quit trying....I charted my own course and did what suited the kids and I ...figuring if spouse would yell complain whatever we did....so I quit keeping house....and hunted fossles if it suited us....I didn`t worry if there was dinner before the kids n I left for karate....I made sure there was enough clean dishes to eat off of....the kitchen may or may not have been clean....the laundry was never done...but enough clothes to wear at least that day....he started doing his own....
I simply didn`t give a damn any more because we knew that nothing would ever be good enough.
The UP side is that though the house was no longer up to the former white glove standard....but my kids n I had gone to art classes, the library, found a 25,000 yr old 3 three toed horse tooth and the remains of an ancient indian campsight complete with flint and processed meat bones ...and a stone spade in a hole we dug.
Lol....actually the dear spouse, though it has been difficult has changed with us and made a real effort at curbing his urge to constantly *improve* us....
I personally think that it has something to do with the ministry and in particular ...corpes training, as I visited a woman who had never been way and was quite puzzled with her former corpes husbands nit picking obsessively anal attention to details.
This fellow was so bad that NONE of the boys in the neighborhood would mow their grass any longer at any price because of (in his mind) attempts to *improve* ie nit picking their job. Nothing they did was up to standard....
You are correct pipes, I see this with a lot of ministry people....on both sides...the *helpers* and those who don`t give a damn any more.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
you are all soooo right! let's face it
in a perfect world everything would be perfect!!
i ain't
my bride ain't
and
none of you are either
BUT
we all love each other
by the way my bride over cooked the steak last night
so it wasn't
perfect but still good
so let's enjoy our imperfect lives!
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templelady
The Bible says be ye "Perfect as Christ is perfect"
That said the Bible also says "judge not lest ye be judged"
SO anyone who has the inclination to pointout how imperfect someone else is doing--clearly isn't working on their own "perfection" and needs to redirect their energies to doing so
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Tom Strange
I don't know if it leads to 'apathy' since (to me) that would connote a lack of caring...
For me it works better this way "perfectionism leads to procrastanation"...
(I'll get around to spell checking that word some day) :)
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rhino
Or maybe they knew exactly what they were doing ... but I really don't think so, I think even the elite were delusional. VP's answer to being academically inferior was to proclaim himself superior ... but he actually did a pretty good job of selling it to a lot of us ...
What is the topic again?
Oh hell, I don't care ...
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Bramble
I don't know if perfectionism is a path to apathy, but it could be a path to depression, for never ever measuring up.
Or a path to rebellion, like Rascal and her house. I think we felt much the same as she did in dumping the house standards that couldn't be lived up to, anyway, when we left the Way. What was the use of trying, anyway?
Probably a good lesson in parenting in there somewhere.
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diazbro
Well anytime there is an impossibly high standard its for sure that many , if not all, will fall short of it. Of course you have to wonder who set the standard and if they are actually capable of living by it. In the case of TWI I think there was an assumption that VPW
was in fact living at the highest level "living the word" when in reality he probably wasn't even doing as good a job of that as a newly minted WOW who was living with 3 other twenty-one year olds who were crammed into an apartment in Boise. But no one knew that. All they knew was that the teachings and meetings had us believing that our journey to the so called abundant life involved taking all the classes, going WOW, maybe Corps, the Rock, the family nights, all twigs, etc until some magical moment when we were suddenly "living the word" and operating "All nine all the time". So in my view those who set the standards knew that they weren't
living anything close to them yet used it to get control over people who though that there was some magic at HQ and those leaders who lived there. That was a trick of the worst sort. Its like the wizard of Oz. Anytime there is an impossibly high standard that no one can live up to there is disappointment as long as you are under the assumption that someone is living at that level - like VPW. But again he wasn't even close to the level he pretended to be.
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