Yeah, there are good Christians on all sides of the debate. All sides present their scriptures as if there weren't contradictory ones, and all sides present their arguments as if their analogies are the only ones that make sense. There are too many arguments that misrepresent another side: "The bible teaches one God, not three" or "How could Jesus be the perfect sacrifice when only God was perfect?"
There are many places where Jesus Christ is clearly called a man. There are also places where he is credited with the qualities of God. In some places he is even called God (Thomas: "my Lord and my God")
I believe mainstream Christianity's view of the godhead was an honest attempt to reconcile conflicting and unclear verses in a way that was consistant and made sense. They didn't always succeed. The many versions of "unitarianism" attempted to do the same.
Unfortunately, it's not spelled out in black and white.
I would agree with the effect that has been expressed by Oaks and Mo.
I understand the innate desire to understand this because of our desire to reach up to God. But to whom are we reaching?
I can also understand it from a theological perspective: on one hand, if Jesus is solely a resurrected, created being who had a definitive beginning, then the worship of Him is a sacrillege and idolatry. On the other hand, if Jesus is, on an integral level, God, who condescended to become flesh for a time in order to save His fleshy creation, to not worship Him is blasphemous.
And, of course, there are accusations thrown both ways, because to admit that the other could be right is an acknowledgement that I could be wrong. And none of us religious types wish to acknowledge that possibility. Myself included (but at least I admit my feet are made of clay).
I don't ever engage in the Trinity wars. I grew up believing the Trinity, but could never make sense of it. I got confused as a kid figuring out who to pray to for what.
When I got involved with TWI, it was about the same time that "JC Is Not God" came out. When somebody in my twig told me there was no trinity, I was actually rather relieved.
Now, I lean towards the Unitarian perspective. But I see valid points on both sides. So I'm not 100% convinced. I do however, believe that worshipping Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is a very good thing. I pray to and worship Jesus in my personal life, as well as God my Father.
I don't worship the Holy Spirit, and at present have no plans to. Neither do I pray to the Holy Spirit.
Does worshipping Jesus make him God? Well, if it does, I'm either an idalotor or trinitarian. :unsure:
But I still do not think of Jesus, God, and Holy Spirit as one and the same thing. But I have absolutely no problem with people who think they are a three in one deal most of the time.
Where I see the biggest problem is when somebody can't get the idea that Jesus was a man, who was tempted in all things as we are, and made a free-will decision to obey God his Father. He had a choice. He didn't have to live a sinless life and then sacrifice himself. That is a problem that I have seen become a real stumblingblock for those of the Trinitarian persuasion. There are other points too, but that seems to be the main one.
And on the other hand, many of the Unitarian, ex-way persuasion, can't understand the relationship we are to have with Jesus as Lord and Saviour. They think it's idolatry to pray to and worship him. Even though there is clear evidence in Acts that the believers did so. And that most revelation was from Jesus. Makes sense since he is head of the church, and in charge of directing its affairs.
So I see problems with both camps.
But anyway, I don't think it's as big a deal as many on both sides want to make it.
But it also can depend on what one's gifts are in the church, too, how much one struggles with the issue. I guess if somebody is a research brain, they probably aren't satisfied til they've solved the dilemna one way or the other. And if you're a teacher, responsible for enlightening others, I guess you better pretty well have it figured out enough to communicate effectively.
The answer to the whole thing probably lies somewhere in the middle, I'm guessing.
Ex10, you've described practically the same way I see Jesus Christ. I usually pray and talk to God, our heavenly Father. Sometimes I talk to Jesus, never to the Holy Spirit. I don't consider myself a Trinitarian. I think sometimes we get so concerned about reducing God down to something we can intellectually handle - we put Him in a box and it's all got to be neat, explained, understandable. That's why I don't into arguing about if he's God or not - I mean I love a good debate and hearing other viewpoints - but I think there's some stuff in the Bible that's WAY OVER our heads! It's like we're on a glass slide under the microscope looking back up through it - the most we'll be able to see at the other end is a big eyeball.
OMG - I'm in agreement too! WOW! Is this a new trinity???? LOL
I figured out a long long time ago that God would rather have us TRY to worship properly than not at all. AND he certainly doesn't want us using His word - that which he gave us and SHOULD be uniting us - to brow beat and intimidate others.
SO on the question of the trinity - I say prayers to both, pray to both (albeit more to the Father than the SON) sometimes I even get on my knees to pray.
the other day I went to a church "pot luck supper" a womens fellowship open to the public.
a lady the pastors wifes best friend , kept saying or referring to "the LORD' the lord this the lord that every other word was the LORD.
I am a person who has read and studied and done ALOT of bible research and stuff.. and I had no idea who or what she was talking about.
I thought and prayed to God what am I doing here, it made me depressed.
The accusasion of idol worship about Jesus is God concerns me as well sometimes.
That righteous doctrinal rage twi teaches sticks sometimes. and then I realize what am I fighting for exactly ?
no clue .
I have read ONE God and ONE LORD by the CES group a huge volume of scripture and knowledge concerning the subject.. I have read it twice... it is a massive book about how Jesus christ is the son of God only.
guess what still no clue.
why does it have to be difficult.
I didnt even know what the trinity was when I got in twi.. I was taught Jesus was the Son of God in a baptist church. so I witnessed to a strict catholic a good friend and he went NUTS over it and thought he finaly found the highway to heaven in PFAL> forsake his family and the church and everything and today is clergy in the way.
man I do not get it . I ask a clergy once when my friend was fighting me on what the trinity was or was not cause I didnt know then any more than now and he said" no one really knows".
What Im saying is I think both camos have confusion and no solid answers.
why is it this way? I also would like God to acknowledge I am quite confused in this area as is so many and please give a clear directive.
nothing yet. 30 years. much reading many sermons.
But when people say LORD LORD i often have no clue who they are talking about.
to me it is a personal thing the relationship we have with our personal Saviour.
but the bible says we are to "fellowship and love one another about and for His worship.
just how with this confusion?
i do not think anyone will burn in hell for calling Jesus God or praying to Jesus or trying to understand in fact I think the bottom line is anyone who is searching will find answers.. the problem is when.
In the mean time I pray I try to get wht the bible teaches and I hope this ignorance will not last forever.
I will not agrue with anyone about the topic.. I could rant scripture as much as the next guy or gal.
I just do not think I should agrue with another lover of God when the bible clearly says we are to love one another.
do I accept what people say the bible means to them?.. hardly I was in the way and it made me so darn suspicsous (sp) of what people say about God now.
I just think at least im in the park and hopefully someday soon we will all know what we need to know.
and if a person is lucky enough to "know what they know" lol I do NOT think that gives them license to beat another searching God loving soul with it.
the point of Jesus Christ is that now we can live in grace he provided and love like He loved us. i try to keep it simple.
I'm not all that sure about the trinity debate but I'm relatively confident that who/what God and Jesus are constitute some of the most important questions facing humanity. That this isn't unequivocally defined is somewhat scary to me. I feel like one of those guys in Acts, worshipping I know not what. Well, maybe that's why I don't worship so much any more. At least not in the conventional sense of the word.
It's interesting how we're all stymied when it comes to articulating exactly how we understand God, see God and worship Him...I read something by Alister McGrath using an analogy to explain the fact that being finite severly limits our understanding of God: we're like a ship on the ocean - the ocean being God of course. You never experience the whole ocean at once - only a very small portion of it...My imagination elaborates on McGrath's analogy - I think of how different the Pacific Ocean is from the Atlantic. I think of how every person feels different about the ocean. Personally - I'm a little terrified - you don't know what's down there! And I'm not a good swimmer. We go to the beach - my family are like fish and could play in the water all day. I'd rather sit on the beach and read a book - while hearing the surf and the sound of seagulls, smelling the salt water, feeling the sea breeze... Ah...where's my Long Island Iced Tea?
Before I went back to fellowship I tried out a number of different churches. I hated everything I looked into. I even talked and prayed with some Mormons (LDS) All the Christians really seemed to be confused about what they were doing and who they were doing it to.
( Oh and quick question since I have very little experience in going to church since I grew up in TWI until my parents left, why does nobody call Jesus=Jesus Christ. Its always Jesus Jesus Jesus. Never giving the title he earned.)
I talked to one young Christian at a Methoist church and he told me "ya Istill dont really know who Jesus is but I feel closer to him than ever since I started coming here." I left dissipointed and confused but at least not as confused as him. Then the Mormons came over and I decided I needed to go back to felloship. This came after a night of tears because The Mormons promised that if I asked God if the "Book of Mormon" was true, they siad God would give me a sign. The only sign I got was a email the next morning from a long standing college friend of mine asking "SO when do you think your going to come back to fellowship?" I wrote back "TODAY!" The first verse that was shared was a verse out of Luke and it was about Jesus Christ growing up and saying he grew in stature and and knowledge and grace (unmeritted devine favor). The FC closed his bible and said "If Jesus Christ was GOd, why would he need to grow in knowledge and his own unmerited devine favor." I knew that at least I was with people that had some answer to give me and even if my family and I had problems in the past I am going to stay here becausxe at least these people are sure about who Jesus Christ is.
"Nobody" is an exaggeration, but it is his name. (Or at least an English transliteration of a Greek version of the Aramaic shortening of his Hebrew name)
I understand" hating the churches" you have learned to question and dismiss any group that does not have everything in a little box with a flip answer.
It is easier to have the answers of life laid out with certainy and no question .
that is the problem tho, can you question?
is it so far out of your comfort zone in life to be able to consider even consider what somone is saying other than "hating" them imediately.
first thought WRONG!
right?
think about the fact you can not think about things with any peace or consideration.
I do not want you to leave twi. not my agenda .
the mormons were right when they asked you to pray.
and pray you did and then the answer of why Jesus "grew" seem to fit your search.
we search till we find the answers we want in life.
they do not have to be the correct or the ones that are the most logical just a answer that allows us to be the most comfortable.
I do not believe Jesus is God.
but the answer that Jesus "grew" so he can not be God is not exactly god breathed revelation if you ask me.
the context of that passage is Jesus growing up as a child. You know the priinciples you should not take verses so out of context and force feed them into another.
God actualy does "GRow" in our life. He has mine over the years.. and He has in history. Noah was the only family that believed yet in ACTS it says the word which is God grew mighty.
all IM saying is you can research on your own and see many many different application of verses instead of just taking somone eles word for it.
it makes more sense when you can look and search for answers that you own as truth.
It took me a long time not to be forced fed verses. to do the work of finding out what I believe.
and to say Jesus is not God or is God , is a long debated topic if the simple answers made so much sense then it would have been over a long long time ago.
but you can not really just continue believing what others say and be happy and peaceful with your relationship with Jesus |christ?
He is a personal LOrd and He will give YOU answers the only isue is YOU have to trust HIM and YOU to move forward with the answers that takes a faith.. and trust in God not in what people say .
The FC closed his bible and said "If Jesus Christ was GOd, why would he need to grow in knowledge and his own unmerited devine favor." I knew that at least I was with people that had some answer to give me and even if my family and I had problems in the past I am going to stay here becausxe at least these people are sure about who Jesus Christ is.
Answers, yes, but as you describe it, weak answers.
By this same logic we would have to say:
- JC had to grow as a baby, he can't be God.
- JC had to learn how to speak. If he were God, how could he have in the begining said "let there be light" if he didn't know how to speak yet.
- If he were God, straight from the womb he would have said, "Mary I am your father." and "Thou shalt not swaddle mine bare hinnie for I am the Lord thy God! Let there be room at the Inn!"
- If JC were God, he would have burst straight out Mary's womb directly into infinite space and presence.
- etc etc etc
I talked to one young Christian at a Methoist church and he told me "ya Istill dont really know who Jesus is but I feel closer to him than ever since I started coming here." I left dissipointed and confused but at least not as confused as him.
First, the key word there is YOUNG Christian. Many young people really don't have things all worked out. Many don't really even know who THEY are yet. Plus, in the real world life's answers are not as black and white or as easy as TWI portrays things.
Second, I hope there were other examples for the sake of making an educated decision. One person at one church and a few others at a Mormon church isn't really a very big sample size. It isn't neccessarily representative of all churchs or even most churchs.
I know what it is like growing up in the ministry. I know what it is like to leave it and suddenly hot have all the answers. It is actually a good thing. You see, a real search for answers is a learning adventure and the more you learn the more you realise you don't know much and you didn't really have all the answers to begin with.
I hope that even though you are back at fellowship with all the answers ready to be spoon fed, that you are able to honestly question those answers and investigate those answers and make a genuinely educated decision on whether they are true or not. I don't know where that will lead you, but I do know that is the best way to get answers. Unfortunately, with all the fellowships, classes, tapes, magazine articles, books to re-read, and whatever else they come up with, the ministry doesn't really give people the time they need to do this. After all, they've got it all figured out for you, right?
"No need to reinvent the wheel." Right?
Actually, if you can figure out a way to make the wheel wear longer, with better traction, with newer, cheaper, greener materials, with faster, cheaper production, more shock absorbing while being flat proof, then maybe it is a good idea. You know how much you would learn in the process of figuring those things out. Trust me, a lot.
How can we get answers without first asking questions? I alsways have, never stopped and don't intend to. I even question that which I believe to be true. This didn't go over too well at "The Church" of my youth, so I left. I continued to ask questions and God answered them, once or twice I listened. When I was introduced to TWI, I started listening more. I believe anyone or group that makes asking questions difficult has something to hide; excluding when questions are asked not looking for answers.
The difference has impact only of the difference makes someone reject Christ as his/her savior
According to the Unitarians Mo, that does happen. I remember LCM saying in an advanced Class teaching that Kareem Abdul Jabbar's biography said the reason he switched to Islam was because he couldn't come to grips with the idea of a Three-in-one God. IF this is true (Consider the source), it may mean that the Trintiy has kept many people from accepting Christ. And because of the passions that surround this topic, I doubt that we could even arrive at an agreement on that issue. Triniarians would no doubt respond with a resume of successful trinitarian evangelists and claim that blaming rejection of the gospel on the triune God is just an excuse.
But, it is quite possible that it offends, confuses, or deters people who would otherwise embrace Christ.
It may have been a 'small' representation of other churches that Rickyq spoke to BUT it IS a fair representation of what the people in the churches think. JW's thunk that Jesus is/ was the archangel Michael.
The Mormons believe that Jesus is Lucifers brother, others just don't think at all...so I think Rickyq's observation was an astute one.
Having said that..I think anyones decision to go back to TWI means that only one half of their brain is functioning properly..sorry Rickyq !!
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Oakspear
Yeah, there are good Christians on all sides of the debate. All sides present their scriptures as if there weren't contradictory ones, and all sides present their arguments as if their analogies are the only ones that make sense. There are too many arguments that misrepresent another side: "The bible teaches one God, not three" or "How could Jesus be the perfect sacrifice when only God was perfect?"
There are many places where Jesus Christ is clearly called a man. There are also places where he is credited with the qualities of God. In some places he is even called God (Thomas: "my Lord and my God")
I believe mainstream Christianity's view of the godhead was an honest attempt to reconcile conflicting and unclear verses in a way that was consistant and made sense. They didn't always succeed. The many versions of "unitarianism" attempted to do the same.
Unfortunately, it's not spelled out in black and white.
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templelady
The difference has impact only of the difference makes someone reject Christ as his/her savior
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markomalley
I would agree with the effect that has been expressed by Oaks and Mo.
I understand the innate desire to understand this because of our desire to reach up to God. But to whom are we reaching?
I can also understand it from a theological perspective: on one hand, if Jesus is solely a resurrected, created being who had a definitive beginning, then the worship of Him is a sacrillege and idolatry. On the other hand, if Jesus is, on an integral level, God, who condescended to become flesh for a time in order to save His fleshy creation, to not worship Him is blasphemous.
And, of course, there are accusations thrown both ways, because to admit that the other could be right is an acknowledgement that I could be wrong. And none of us religious types wish to acknowledge that possibility. Myself included (but at least I admit my feet are made of clay).
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Kit Sober
It always appeared to me that the "debate" was to foster division and prevent communication.
I love talking to Christians about the Bible and have found that if we keep to scriptures there is no argument about that.
In love with the Savior, and so thankful he save me, too.
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ex10
I don't ever engage in the Trinity wars. I grew up believing the Trinity, but could never make sense of it. I got confused as a kid figuring out who to pray to for what.
When I got involved with TWI, it was about the same time that "JC Is Not God" came out. When somebody in my twig told me there was no trinity, I was actually rather relieved.
Now, I lean towards the Unitarian perspective. But I see valid points on both sides. So I'm not 100% convinced. I do however, believe that worshipping Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is a very good thing. I pray to and worship Jesus in my personal life, as well as God my Father.
I don't worship the Holy Spirit, and at present have no plans to. Neither do I pray to the Holy Spirit.
Does worshipping Jesus make him God? Well, if it does, I'm either an idalotor or trinitarian. :unsure:
But I still do not think of Jesus, God, and Holy Spirit as one and the same thing. But I have absolutely no problem with people who think they are a three in one deal most of the time.
Where I see the biggest problem is when somebody can't get the idea that Jesus was a man, who was tempted in all things as we are, and made a free-will decision to obey God his Father. He had a choice. He didn't have to live a sinless life and then sacrifice himself. That is a problem that I have seen become a real stumblingblock for those of the Trinitarian persuasion. There are other points too, but that seems to be the main one.
And on the other hand, many of the Unitarian, ex-way persuasion, can't understand the relationship we are to have with Jesus as Lord and Saviour. They think it's idolatry to pray to and worship him. Even though there is clear evidence in Acts that the believers did so. And that most revelation was from Jesus. Makes sense since he is head of the church, and in charge of directing its affairs.
So I see problems with both camps.
But anyway, I don't think it's as big a deal as many on both sides want to make it.
But it also can depend on what one's gifts are in the church, too, how much one struggles with the issue. I guess if somebody is a research brain, they probably aren't satisfied til they've solved the dilemna one way or the other. And if you're a teacher, responsible for enlightening others, I guess you better pretty well have it figured out enough to communicate effectively.
The answer to the whole thing probably lies somewhere in the middle, I'm guessing.
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T-Bone
Ex10, you've described practically the same way I see Jesus Christ. I usually pray and talk to God, our heavenly Father. Sometimes I talk to Jesus, never to the Holy Spirit. I don't consider myself a Trinitarian. I think sometimes we get so concerned about reducing God down to something we can intellectually handle - we put Him in a box and it's all got to be neat, explained, understandable. That's why I don't into arguing about if he's God or not - I mean I love a good debate and hearing other viewpoints - but I think there's some stuff in the Bible that's WAY OVER our heads! It's like we're on a glass slide under the microscope looking back up through it - the most we'll be able to see at the other end is a big eyeball.
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ex10
Ain't it amazing, t-bone, that we could both come to similiar conclusions? :o
Maybe it's cause we are led by the same spirit, the same Lord?
The difference between us might be, that I find myself praying to/worshipping/asking guidance of the Lord Jesus as much as I praise our Father.
After all, it was God's idea to give him a name above every name, that every knee will bow to (worship) when he is revealed in all his true glory.
I don't want to be surprised when it happens. :D I figure as much of a head start as I can get now, will only help me later.
Seriously, Jesus is in charge of his church right now, and if I want to be a player, I gotta be tight with him.
God's best to you and yours, t-bone.
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T-Bone
I'm in full agreement with you, Ex10 - and best wishes back atcha!
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ex10
Ohmigosh!
Full agreement on Greasespot...A miracle has happened in our very midst.
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doojable
OMG - I'm in agreement too! WOW! Is this a new trinity???? LOL
I figured out a long long time ago that God would rather have us TRY to worship properly than not at all. AND he certainly doesn't want us using His word - that which he gave us and SHOULD be uniting us - to brow beat and intimidate others.
SO on the question of the trinity - I say prayers to both, pray to both (albeit more to the Father than the SON) sometimes I even get on my knees to pray.
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pond
the other day I went to a church "pot luck supper" a womens fellowship open to the public.
a lady the pastors wifes best friend , kept saying or referring to "the LORD' the lord this the lord that every other word was the LORD.
I am a person who has read and studied and done ALOT of bible research and stuff.. and I had no idea who or what she was talking about.
I thought and prayed to God what am I doing here, it made me depressed.
The accusasion of idol worship about Jesus is God concerns me as well sometimes.
That righteous doctrinal rage twi teaches sticks sometimes. and then I realize what am I fighting for exactly ?
no clue .
I have read ONE God and ONE LORD by the CES group a huge volume of scripture and knowledge concerning the subject.. I have read it twice... it is a massive book about how Jesus christ is the son of God only.
guess what still no clue.
why does it have to be difficult.
I didnt even know what the trinity was when I got in twi.. I was taught Jesus was the Son of God in a baptist church. so I witnessed to a strict catholic a good friend and he went NUTS over it and thought he finaly found the highway to heaven in PFAL> forsake his family and the church and everything and today is clergy in the way.
man I do not get it . I ask a clergy once when my friend was fighting me on what the trinity was or was not cause I didnt know then any more than now and he said" no one really knows".
What Im saying is I think both camos have confusion and no solid answers.
why is it this way? I also would like God to acknowledge I am quite confused in this area as is so many and please give a clear directive.
nothing yet. 30 years. much reading many sermons.
But when people say LORD LORD i often have no clue who they are talking about.
to me it is a personal thing the relationship we have with our personal Saviour.
but the bible says we are to "fellowship and love one another about and for His worship.
just how with this confusion?
i do not think anyone will burn in hell for calling Jesus God or praying to Jesus or trying to understand in fact I think the bottom line is anyone who is searching will find answers.. the problem is when.
In the mean time I pray I try to get wht the bible teaches and I hope this ignorance will not last forever.
I will not agrue with anyone about the topic.. I could rant scripture as much as the next guy or gal.
I just do not think I should agrue with another lover of God when the bible clearly says we are to love one another.
do I accept what people say the bible means to them?.. hardly I was in the way and it made me so darn suspicsous (sp) of what people say about God now.
I just think at least im in the park and hopefully someday soon we will all know what we need to know.
and if a person is lucky enough to "know what they know" lol I do NOT think that gives them license to beat another searching God loving soul with it.
the point of Jesus Christ is that now we can live in grace he provided and love like He loved us. i try to keep it simple.
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JumpinJive
I'm not all that sure about the trinity debate but I'm relatively confident that who/what God and Jesus are constitute some of the most important questions facing humanity. That this isn't unequivocally defined is somewhat scary to me. I feel like one of those guys in Acts, worshipping I know not what. Well, maybe that's why I don't worship so much any more. At least not in the conventional sense of the word.
-JJ
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T-Bone
It's interesting how we're all stymied when it comes to articulating exactly how we understand God, see God and worship Him...I read something by Alister McGrath using an analogy to explain the fact that being finite severly limits our understanding of God: we're like a ship on the ocean - the ocean being God of course. You never experience the whole ocean at once - only a very small portion of it...My imagination elaborates on McGrath's analogy - I think of how different the Pacific Ocean is from the Atlantic. I think of how every person feels different about the ocean. Personally - I'm a little terrified - you don't know what's down there! And I'm not a good swimmer. We go to the beach - my family are like fish and could play in the water all day. I'd rather sit on the beach and read a book - while hearing the surf and the sound of seagulls, smelling the salt water, feeling the sea breeze... Ah...where's my Long Island Iced Tea?
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ex10
Yeah, t-bone. The word "ineffable" comes to mind.
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rickyg
Before I went back to fellowship I tried out a number of different churches. I hated everything I looked into. I even talked and prayed with some Mormons (LDS)
All the Christians really seemed to be confused about what they were doing and who they were doing it to.
( Oh and quick question since I have very little experience in going to church since I grew up in TWI until my parents left, why does nobody call Jesus=Jesus Christ. Its always Jesus Jesus Jesus. Never giving the title he earned.)
I talked to one young Christian at a Methoist church and he told me "ya Istill dont really know who Jesus is but I feel closer to him than ever since I started coming here." I left dissipointed and confused but at least not as confused as him. Then the Mormons came over and I decided I needed to go back to felloship. This came after a night of tears because The Mormons promised that if I asked God if the "Book of Mormon" was true, they siad God would give me a sign. The only sign I got was a email the next morning from a long standing college friend of mine asking "SO when do you think your going to come back to fellowship?" I wrote back "TODAY!" The first verse that was shared was a verse out of Luke and it was about Jesus Christ growing up and saying he grew in stature and and knowledge and grace (unmeritted devine favor). The FC closed his bible and said "If Jesus Christ was GOd, why would he need to grow in knowledge and his own unmerited devine favor." I knew that at least I was with people that had some answer to give me and even if my family and I had problems in the past I am going to stay here becausxe at least these people are sure about who Jesus Christ is.
Ricky
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Oakspear
"Nobody" is an exaggeration, but it is his name. (Or at least an English transliteration of a Greek version of the Aramaic shortening of his Hebrew name)
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pond
Ricky G.
I understand" hating the churches" you have learned to question and dismiss any group that does not have everything in a little box with a flip answer.
It is easier to have the answers of life laid out with certainy and no question .
that is the problem tho, can you question?
is it so far out of your comfort zone in life to be able to consider even consider what somone is saying other than "hating" them imediately.
first thought WRONG!
right?
think about the fact you can not think about things with any peace or consideration.
I do not want you to leave twi. not my agenda .
the mormons were right when they asked you to pray.
and pray you did and then the answer of why Jesus "grew" seem to fit your search.
we search till we find the answers we want in life.
they do not have to be the correct or the ones that are the most logical just a answer that allows us to be the most comfortable.
I do not believe Jesus is God.
but the answer that Jesus "grew" so he can not be God is not exactly god breathed revelation if you ask me.
the context of that passage is Jesus growing up as a child. You know the priinciples you should not take verses so out of context and force feed them into another.
God actualy does "GRow" in our life. He has mine over the years.. and He has in history. Noah was the only family that believed yet in ACTS it says the word which is God grew mighty.
all IM saying is you can research on your own and see many many different application of verses instead of just taking somone eles word for it.
it makes more sense when you can look and search for answers that you own as truth.
It took me a long time not to be forced fed verses. to do the work of finding out what I believe.
and to say Jesus is not God or is God , is a long debated topic if the simple answers made so much sense then it would have been over a long long time ago.
but you can not really just continue believing what others say and be happy and peaceful with your relationship with Jesus |christ?
He is a personal LOrd and He will give YOU answers the only isue is YOU have to trust HIM and YOU to move forward with the answers that takes a faith.. and trust in God not in what people say .
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lindyhopper
rickyg wrote:
Answers, yes, but as you describe it, weak answers.By this same logic we would have to say:
- JC had to grow as a baby, he can't be God.
- JC had to learn how to speak. If he were God, how could he have in the begining said "let there be light" if he didn't know how to speak yet.
- If he were God, straight from the womb he would have said, "Mary I am your father." and "Thou shalt not swaddle mine bare hinnie for I am the Lord thy God! Let there be room at the Inn!"
- If JC were God, he would have burst straight out Mary's womb directly into infinite space and presence.
- etc etc etc
First, the key word there is YOUNG Christian. Many young people really don't have things all worked out. Many don't really even know who THEY are yet. Plus, in the real world life's answers are not as black and white or as easy as TWI portrays things.
Second, I hope there were other examples for the sake of making an educated decision. One person at one church and a few others at a Mormon church isn't really a very big sample size. It isn't neccessarily representative of all churchs or even most churchs.
I know what it is like growing up in the ministry. I know what it is like to leave it and suddenly hot have all the answers. It is actually a good thing. You see, a real search for answers is a learning adventure and the more you learn the more you realise you don't know much and you didn't really have all the answers to begin with.
I hope that even though you are back at fellowship with all the answers ready to be spoon fed, that you are able to honestly question those answers and investigate those answers and make a genuinely educated decision on whether they are true or not. I don't know where that will lead you, but I do know that is the best way to get answers. Unfortunately, with all the fellowships, classes, tapes, magazine articles, books to re-read, and whatever else they come up with, the ministry doesn't really give people the time they need to do this. After all, they've got it all figured out for you, right?
"No need to reinvent the wheel." Right?
Actually, if you can figure out a way to make the wheel wear longer, with better traction, with newer, cheaper, greener materials, with faster, cheaper production, more shock absorbing while being flat proof, then maybe it is a good idea. You know how much you would learn in the process of figuring those things out. Trust me, a lot.
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year2027
God first
Beloved T-Bone
God loves you my dear friend
To me it does not matter if some one calls Jesus the Christ God as long as they love God and love The Jesus they call God too
Or as long as they live love it does not matter to me any more
But I will not lie about how I believe
I see whether one thinks Jesus is God who was the son too or God be the father and Jesus be the son the Christ its just a small thing to me
But on boards if I say Jesus the Christ the son of God on some boards I am called names and they teach me about trinity
So I just go on and try to find people who just live Love
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
yes. :)
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Clifhanger
How can we get answers without first asking questions? I alsways have, never stopped and don't intend to. I even question that which I believe to be true. This didn't go over too well at "The Church" of my youth, so I left. I continued to ask questions and God answered them, once or twice I listened. When I was introduced to TWI, I started listening more. I believe anyone or group that makes asking questions difficult has something to hide; excluding when questions are asked not looking for answers.
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Jbarrax
According to the Unitarians Mo, that does happen. I remember LCM saying in an advanced Class teaching that Kareem Abdul Jabbar's biography said the reason he switched to Islam was because he couldn't come to grips with the idea of a Three-in-one God. IF this is true (Consider the source), it may mean that the Trintiy has kept many people from accepting Christ. And because of the passions that surround this topic, I doubt that we could even arrive at an agreement on that issue. Triniarians would no doubt respond with a resume of successful trinitarian evangelists and claim that blaming rejection of the gospel on the triune God is just an excuse.
But, it is quite possible that it offends, confuses, or deters people who would otherwise embrace Christ.
JerryB
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allan w.
It may have been a 'small' representation of other churches that Rickyq spoke to BUT it IS a fair representation of what the people in the churches think. JW's thunk that Jesus is/ was the archangel Michael.
The Mormons believe that Jesus is Lucifers brother, others just don't think at all...so I think Rickyq's observation was an astute one.
Having said that..I think anyones decision to go back to TWI means that only one half of their brain is functioning properly..sorry Rickyq !!
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WordWolf
Actually,
a Jew once told me outright that was his major beef with Christianity,
that the Trinity was pretty much his dividing line.
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