After years of reading your posts I can only conclude that in your area of TWI it was a utopia compared to the rest of our TWI. And that is wonderful
However
it was a demand to supress any independent thought,...
Way way overstated, melodramatic, and ridiculous.[/quote]
It isn't way overstated, melodramatic, and ridiculous -- not in the TWI I was in, Not in the TWI many of us were in. That is exactly what we were required to do
Never to question the Interpretation of Scripture
Never to question the authority of leadership
Never to refuse any request of leadership
From where you stood that may seem unlikely and implausible
However, you need to understand that is how it was for many.
And as for leaving-If you aren't allowed to question if every minute of life is spent trying to conform , be meek, be acceptable --how can you question whether to stay. TWI was Abusive--just as an abusive spouse is abusive.
"battered wives syndrome" isn't just for wives and it isn't just applicable to marriages
Uh huh. No, it went beyond that. It was a demand to fall into line on much more than "biblical truth", it was a demand to supress any independent thought,...
Way way overstated, melodramatic, and ridiculous.
Perhaps incompletely stated. You could have all the thought, independent or otherwise, that you wanted, as long as you kept your mouth shut about. And you could express these thoughts, as long as they were something "neutral" like your favorite baseball team.
Melodramatic? Hardly. Simply stated hyperbolically to make a point. Sorry that you weren't able to understand that. Ridiculous? Nope. Quite in line with a lot of people's experiences. Not yours apparently, but that doesn't make mine "ridiculous".
and to "hold in abeyance" any insights on the bible and God that differed from the dictates of the fake doctor.
I would agree with you, to a point. We were free to hold any biblical beliefs we wanted, just not teach them as truth, if they differed from established twi teaching.
Any insights not approved from on high were suspect. Even talking about them in non-teaching situations got you on the road to mark and avoid.
Yes I suppose that sounds culty, but ask yourself whether you are allowed to teach whatever you think is truth in other religious bodies?
Try teaching what you think is truth in the RC Church, Jehovahs Witnesses, Jewish Churches, Muslim Churches, just to name a few.
Nice strawman! But I'm not talking about teaching, I'm talking about discussion, talking, having insights, etc. Of course you're not going to have someone in a Catholic pulpit teaching doctrine contrary to the Catholic church, but catholics who don't buy into it 100% don't have to worry about talking about it at the pub. A Catholic can totally disbelive in the trinity, yet go to church every Sunday and never be harrassed. In Wayworld, how long do you think someone would last if they even casually mentioned that the trinity might be truth?
Finally, if ya didn't agree with twi teachings, why hang around? Others who didn't agree departed freely.
This subject has come up repeatedly on GS. There are several reasons that people stayed when they didn't agree with teachings, weren't "blessed", saw abuses, etc:
Thought they could change the "error" that they saw more effectively from within
Spouse or other family member "in" that they were unwilling to leave without
Bought into the lie that they would be a "Grease Spot by midnight"
others that have been put forth on this site
While Wierwille did teach some bible, he also expected us to take his word on points that could not be documented in the bible.
Same as above... but in any case, it was our choice what to believe, and he told us to research the scriptures ourselves and make it our own; .
Yeah, he did tell us to research the scriptures and make them our own. But what happened in the real world was that we were to work the scriptures and make Wierwille's conclusions our own. How many people were absolutely convinced that the first word in the bible was "God" despite any evidense to the contrary? Or that "an old document" stated that illegitimate kids got their bar-mitzvah at 12 instead of 13? Or based their "research" on Wierwillian definitions of words that could not be supported?
...and we assumed that if folks hung around, they agreed with what VP taught
I don't know about you, but I got into TWI so that I could read and understand the bible, not so I would just take another guy's word for what it said. Many people, including me, thought that Wierwille was teaching us a method of making the bible our own, and sheparding us along in that endeavor, when it turned out that he was expecting to be obeyed just as blindly as the pope.
The inability to speak freely in TWI went far beyond questioning TWI’s interpretation of the accuracy and integrity of God’s word. You could never question your leader\corpse\clergy or point out how they were wrong even if YOU were 100% right. One time I did and got black-balled. Another time I got bullied by clergy. Both times I was 100% right but it made the leader\corpse look bad.
The inability to speak freely in TWI went far beyond questioning TWI’s interpretation of the accuracy and integrity of God’s word. You could never question your leader\corpse\clergy or point out how they were wrong even if YOU were 100% right.
Of course we could question and/or point out how wrong they were. I sometimes did. Of course, I didn't always get meekness or thankfulness in response. :) Sometimes, I got ill will and stubbornness. Sometimes I got vagueness. Sometimes I got no response at all. But that didn't stop me from questioning and being a pest, if I thought I had to.
One time I did and got black-balled. Another time I got bullied by clergy. Both times I was 100% right but it made the leader\corpse look bad.
You prove that you could speak up, and did. Unfortunately, they didn't accept what you had to say, and were rude or worse, besides that.
I've had leadership like that. On the other hand, I've had meek leaders too.
"One time I did and got black-balled. Another time I got bullied by clergy. Both times I was 100% right but it made the leader\corpse look bad."
You prove that you could speak up, and did. Unfortunately, they didn't accept what you had to say, and were rude or worse, besides that.
Nobody is suggesting that TWI somehow magically prevented people from speaking out loud if it went against da word o' Vic; who would want to continue to speak up if they were black-balled, bullied, etc.? That's the point: not that your vocal cords seized up.
It is far worse then being black-balled or bullied. If you believed TWI was God’s household and these were God’s people, a great fear is to be alienated from God. They used this to manipulate you and get you to loose your integrity.
Of course if you were part of the inner-circle (i.e., corpse or in with your leaders) you could speak more freely. I experienced this as well. But this isn’t right either. It is pure politics.
Nobody is suggesting that TWI somehow magically prevented people from speaking out loud if it went against da word o' Vic; who would want to continue to speak up if they were black-balled, bullied, etc.? That's the point: not that your vocal cords seized up.
And I think it is a weak point.
For the most part, religious or other groups with definitive teachings and beliefs simply do not allow other doctrines or opinions, for any appreciable length of time. You either agree with the program, or leave.
For instance, if I decided to regularly attend and share at a Wicca meeting, all about the accuracy and integrity of the ineffable greatness of God's Word, how long do you think I would last, before being escorted out the door?
If you believed TWI was God’s household and these were God’s people, a great fear is to be alienated from God. They used this to manipulate you and get you to loose your integrity.
I think the feeling could be fairly common in religious groups. Ever try leaving the RC church or JWitnesses, to just name two? Do the leaders there approve and bless your departure?
Hopefully we can get our faith in Christ so strong, that we don't have to "feel captive" to any one earthly organization.
I think the feeling could be fairly common in religious groups. Ever try leaving the RC church or JWitnesses, to just name two? Do the leaders there approve and bless your departure?
Since leaving TWI, I have been involved in many churches. 90% of all Christian organizations don’t make you feel captive nor harass or condemn you for leaving. There are those that do and TWI is/was one of them. JC came to make the captive free not captivate them.
Hopefully we can get our faith in Christ so strong, that we don't have to "feel captive" to any one earthly organization.
When it comes to TWI and organizations like them, it is not a matter of feeling captive it is a matter of being captive.
Come on MountainTopCO, you make it sound like we were shackled prisoners in a concentration camp.
Here is one way VPW lead people into captivity. Search around for some very controversial subjects. Pick the side that few people believe in, a side you can convince people to be right then make that issue the highest priority. And finally, make everybody who disagrees evil this way if you question it, you are evil.
Here is how it breaks down.
1) pick a controversial topic
2) pick the side of the issue no other denomination is siding on
3) make it a very high priority
4) make all disagreers evil
5) don’t allow anybody to question it
Result: the people have no where to go and they are captive and can’t speak freely.
Heck Oldy, in some ways you are still in captivity whether you realize it or not.
The freedom enjoyed outside of twi`s confines has been exhilerating.
I agree Rascal. I’ve been out for 4 years. I have met some wonderful Godly people and learned some great principles. At one church I visited, the minister laid hands on me and ministered to me. I was delivered in a powerful way. God is alive and well and lives powerfully outside the confines of TWI.
God IS alive and well ...and we certainly don`t have to put up with the absolute crap that we were assaulted with in twi, order to enjoy his healing presence in our lives.
How good to hear about your deliverance and healing ....Sure proves that twi doesn`t have a corner on God eh.
Of course you do. In the bubble that you apparently lived in, many of the bad things mentioned here didn't happen.
For the most part, religious or other groups with definitive teachings and beliefs simply do not allow other doctrines or opinions, for any appreciable length of time. You either agree with the program, or leave.
You and I are never going to see eye-to-eye on this, Oldies. Many people stick with organizations where they don't agree with everything taught, and are tolerated, as long as they don't try to teach "from the pulpit". There are many other organizations where the level of tolerance is about where TWI's is. You and I obviously have different experiences and observations with different groups.
Our experience with TWI was different as well. In addition to leaving during different time periods, you left when you'd had enough, where I had a "believing" wife and children to consider.
For instance, if I decided to regularly attend and share at a Wicca meeting, all about the accuracy and integrity of the ineffable greatness of God's Word, how long do you think I would last, before being escorted out the door?
I'm glad you brought that up, Oldiesman. I've been thinking about bringing that up myself, but didn't want to "preach" or tout my beliefs.
I cannot speak for any Wiccan or Pagan groups other than the one that I associate with, but you would be allowed to "share...all about the accuracy and integrity of the ineffable greatness of God's Word" as much as you wanted to to the others. That's no guarantee, however, that anyone would listen to you or take you seriously. You might be engaged in debate about your beliefs, you might be ignored, some might consider incorporating what you said into their own belief systems, or you might be mocked by the ignorant and/or rude.
Oldiesman, since you brought it up, I can't think of any Wiccan/Pagan group in my area where you might be able to attend regularly and where you would have a platform to do a teaching or witnessing during the group's meeting. The only meetings I've been to were workshops or rituals. Like a new person in Twig fellowship, you would not be in charge. And being disruptive would get you kicked out the living room door or backyard. Just like Twig!
But if you were polite and honest( if you faked being pagan to do the witnessing thing, I don't think you'd be well received)etc you could talk to people at snack time or potlucks etc. Maybe go out for coffee.
Alot of pagans don't think much of witnessing, they believe a person needs to actively seek their own path, not get persuaded to join some one else' path.
Come on MountainTopCO, you make it sound like we were shackled prisoners in a concentration camp.
We weren't held captive and I don't buy into the VMP.
Yeah... Being intimidated and being told that horrible things will happen to you when you leave the ministry sure isn't a good way to hold someone mentally and spiritually captive.
If you weren't held captive, then why did you leave?
As for me, I left on my own accord. For the record, I wasn't kicked out. I didn't give them the pleasure of hauling my arse to a Kangaroo Court like they did to other people at the time. By the time I left, I didn't FU--C-K-ING care if I got killed in an accident because by then, I felt it was better off being dead than to live under the thumb of your dear F-U-C-K-I-N-G TWI ministry.
NOW HOW'BOUT THAT FOR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION: F-U-C-K THE WAY INTERNATIONAL AND THEIR LEADERS!!!
I agree Rascal. I’ve been out for 4 years. I have met some wonderful Godly people and learned some great principles. At one church I visited, the minister laid hands on me and ministered to me. I was delivered in a powerful way. God is alive and well and lives powerfully outside the confines of TWI.
NO KIDDING!!!
Isn't Freedom Great?
The irony is that there are more people in the world outside TWI that are Godlier and much more loving.
Oldiesman, since you brought it up, I can't think of any Wiccan/Pagan group in my area where you might be able to attend regularly and where you would have a platform to do a teaching or witnessing during the group's meeting. The only meetings I've been to were workshops or rituals. Like a new person in Twig fellowship, you would not be in charge. And being disruptive would get you kicked out the living room door or backyard. Just like Twig!
That was my point Bramble. Then at that point, you either got with the program, or left. If the meetings weren't pleasing and acceptable to you, you left. If not, you stayed and got likeminded with the group.
Call that what you want.. goodness, love, truth, brainwashing, mindcontrol, captivity, et al... but bottom line, whatever you call it, it was your choice ...
Oldiesman--what meeting have you ever been to where a stranger can walk in and start witnessing? That is not polite, to try to take over someone's group.
The difference,between TWI and most other groups--not just Pagan/Wiccan-- is that you are free to have a difference of opinion or belief and still be part of the group. Lots of pagan groups are compiosed of people with different beliefs. No one has to bite their tongue in a conversational setting.
That was not possible in TWI--you had to accept every jot and tittle as rightly divided truth and hush up if you didn't agree. Or you could leave, or you could get kicked out. You could not express your difference of opinion with out a negative consequence from leadership.
Only if you wanted your family to die, your family to become ill, God to reject you etc etc etc
saying you could leave is one thing--but when you make the stakes so high through fear then leaving really isn't an option psychologically
T L It was always an option. We all faced the same obstacles yet many left, some stayed, Something to consider perhaps when one searched the scripture and found if these things were true or not the answer was easy, and fear was quickly squelched. As always it is the responsibility of each of us to search for the truth in each situation.
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Oldies
After years of reading your posts I can only conclude that in your area of TWI it was a utopia compared to the rest of our TWI. And that is wonderful
However
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Oakspear
Melodramatic? Hardly. Simply stated hyperbolically to make a point. Sorry that you weren't able to understand that. Ridiculous? Nope. Quite in line with a lot of people's experiences. Not yours apparently, but that doesn't make mine "ridiculous".
Any insights not approved from on high were suspect. Even talking about them in non-teaching situations got you on the road to mark and avoid. Nice strawman! But I'm not talking about teaching, I'm talking about discussion, talking, having insights, etc. Of course you're not going to have someone in a Catholic pulpit teaching doctrine contrary to the Catholic church, but catholics who don't buy into it 100% don't have to worry about talking about it at the pub. A Catholic can totally disbelive in the trinity, yet go to church every Sunday and never be harrassed. In Wayworld, how long do you think someone would last if they even casually mentioned that the trinity might be truth?This subject has come up repeatedly on GS. There are several reasons that people stayed when they didn't agree with teachings, weren't "blessed", saw abuses, etc:- Thought they could change the "error" that they saw more effectively from within
- Spouse or other family member "in" that they were unwilling to leave without
- Bought into the lie that they would be a "Grease Spot by midnight"
- others that have been put forth on this site
Yeah, he did tell us to research the scriptures and make them our own. But what happened in the real world was that we were to work the scriptures and make Wierwille's conclusions our own. How many people were absolutely convinced that the first word in the bible was "God" despite any evidense to the contrary? Or that "an old document" stated that illegitimate kids got their bar-mitzvah at 12 instead of 13? Or based their "research" on Wierwillian definitions of words that could not be supported? I don't know about you, but I got into TWI so that I could read and understand the bible, not so I would just take another guy's word for what it said. Many people, including me, thought that Wierwille was teaching us a method of making the bible our own, and sheparding us along in that endeavor, when it turned out that he was expecting to be obeyed just as blindly as the pope.Link to comment
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MountainTopCO
The inability to speak freely in TWI went far beyond questioning TWI’s interpretation of the accuracy and integrity of God’s word. You could never question your leader\corpse\clergy or point out how they were wrong even if YOU were 100% right. One time I did and got black-balled. Another time I got bullied by clergy. Both times I was 100% right but it made the leader\corpse look bad.
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oldiesman
Of course we could question and/or point out how wrong they were. I sometimes did. Of course, I didn't always get meekness or thankfulness in response. :) Sometimes, I got ill will and stubbornness. Sometimes I got vagueness. Sometimes I got no response at all. But that didn't stop me from questioning and being a pest, if I thought I had to.
You prove that you could speak up, and did. Unfortunately, they didn't accept what you had to say, and were rude or worse, besides that.
I've had leadership like that. On the other hand, I've had meek leaders too.
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Oakspear
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MountainTopCO
It is far worse then being black-balled or bullied. If you believed TWI was God’s household and these were God’s people, a great fear is to be alienated from God. They used this to manipulate you and get you to loose your integrity.
Of course if you were part of the inner-circle (i.e., corpse or in with your leaders) you could speak more freely. I experienced this as well. But this isn’t right either. It is pure politics.
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oldiesman
And I think it is a weak point.
For the most part, religious or other groups with definitive teachings and beliefs simply do not allow other doctrines or opinions, for any appreciable length of time. You either agree with the program, or leave.
For instance, if I decided to regularly attend and share at a Wicca meeting, all about the accuracy and integrity of the ineffable greatness of God's Word, how long do you think I would last, before being escorted out the door?
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oldiesman
I think the feeling could be fairly common in religious groups. Ever try leaving the RC church or JWitnesses, to just name two? Do the leaders there approve and bless your departure?
Hopefully we can get our faith in Christ so strong, that we don't have to "feel captive" to any one earthly organization.
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MountainTopCO
Not sure what your point is Oldy???
Since leaving TWI, I have been involved in many churches. 90% of all Christian organizations don’t make you feel captive nor harass or condemn you for leaving. There are those that do and TWI is/was one of them. JC came to make the captive free not captivate them.
When it comes to TWI and organizations like them, it is not a matter of feeling captive it is a matter of being captive.
Have another cup of "joe".
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oldiesman
Come on MountainTopCO, you make it sound like we were shackled prisoners in a concentration camp.
We weren't held captive and I don't buy into the VMP.
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WordWolf
"Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage."- Richard Lovelace.
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oldiesman
On the other hand, my RC church experience was like serving time.
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rascal
Welcome mountain top, my experience has been the same as yours....
The freedom enjoyed outside of twi`s confines has been exhilerating.
In 10 yrs since leaving, I have yet to attend a church who overstepped the bounds of propriety and standard of decency as was practiced in twi.
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MountainTopCO
Here is one way VPW lead people into captivity. Search around for some very controversial subjects. Pick the side that few people believe in, a side you can convince people to be right then make that issue the highest priority. And finally, make everybody who disagrees evil this way if you question it, you are evil.
Here is how it breaks down.
1) pick a controversial topic
2) pick the side of the issue no other denomination is siding on
3) make it a very high priority
4) make all disagreers evil
5) don’t allow anybody to question it
Result: the people have no where to go and they are captive and can’t speak freely.
Heck Oldy, in some ways you are still in captivity whether you realize it or not.
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MountainTopCO
I agree Rascal. I’ve been out for 4 years. I have met some wonderful Godly people and learned some great principles. At one church I visited, the minister laid hands on me and ministered to me. I was delivered in a powerful way. God is alive and well and lives powerfully outside the confines of TWI.
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rascal
Tell it Mt top! :)
God IS alive and well ...and we certainly don`t have to put up with the absolute crap that we were assaulted with in twi, order to enjoy his healing presence in our lives.
How good to hear about your deliverance and healing ....Sure proves that twi doesn`t have a corner on God eh.
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Oakspear
Our experience with TWI was different as well. In addition to leaving during different time periods, you left when you'd had enough, where I had a "believing" wife and children to consider.
I'm glad you brought that up, Oldiesman. I've been thinking about bringing that up myself, but didn't want to "preach" or tout my beliefs.I cannot speak for any Wiccan or Pagan groups other than the one that I associate with, but you would be allowed to "share...all about the accuracy and integrity of the ineffable greatness of God's Word" as much as you wanted to to the others. That's no guarantee, however, that anyone would listen to you or take you seriously. You might be engaged in debate about your beliefs, you might be ignored, some might consider incorporating what you said into their own belief systems, or you might be mocked by the ignorant and/or rude.
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Bramble
Oldiesman, since you brought it up, I can't think of any Wiccan/Pagan group in my area where you might be able to attend regularly and where you would have a platform to do a teaching or witnessing during the group's meeting. The only meetings I've been to were workshops or rituals. Like a new person in Twig fellowship, you would not be in charge. And being disruptive would get you kicked out the living room door or backyard. Just like Twig!
But if you were polite and honest( if you faked being pagan to do the witnessing thing, I don't think you'd be well received)etc you could talk to people at snack time or potlucks etc. Maybe go out for coffee.
Alot of pagans don't think much of witnessing, they believe a person needs to actively seek their own path, not get persuaded to join some one else' path.
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FreeFromCults
Yeah... Being intimidated and being told that horrible things will happen to you when you leave the ministry sure isn't a good way to hold someone mentally and spiritually captive.
If you weren't held captive, then why did you leave?
As for me, I left on my own accord. For the record, I wasn't kicked out. I didn't give them the pleasure of hauling my arse to a Kangaroo Court like they did to other people at the time. By the time I left, I didn't FU--C-K-ING care if I got killed in an accident because by then, I felt it was better off being dead than to live under the thumb of your dear F-U-C-K-I-N-G TWI ministry.
NOW HOW'BOUT THAT FOR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION: F-U-C-K THE WAY INTERNATIONAL AND THEIR LEADERS!!!
NO KIDDING!!!
Isn't Freedom Great?
The irony is that there are more people in the world outside TWI that are Godlier and much more loving.
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oldiesman
That was my point Bramble. Then at that point, you either got with the program, or left. If the meetings weren't pleasing and acceptable to you, you left. If not, you stayed and got likeminded with the group.
Call that what you want.. goodness, love, truth, brainwashing, mindcontrol, captivity, et al... but bottom line, whatever you call it, it was your choice ...
Just like Greasespot! :)
Have a nice weekend, one and all.
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Bramble
Oldiesman--what meeting have you ever been to where a stranger can walk in and start witnessing? That is not polite, to try to take over someone's group.
The difference,between TWI and most other groups--not just Pagan/Wiccan-- is that you are free to have a difference of opinion or belief and still be part of the group. Lots of pagan groups are compiosed of people with different beliefs. No one has to bite their tongue in a conversational setting.
That was not possible in TWI--you had to accept every jot and tittle as rightly divided truth and hush up if you didn't agree. Or you could leave, or you could get kicked out. You could not express your difference of opinion with out a negative consequence from leadership.
But I'm sure that was not your experience.
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templelady
saying you could leave is one thing--but when you make the stakes so high through fear then leaving really isn't an option psychologically
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WhiteDove
T L It was always an option. We all faced the same obstacles yet many left, some stayed, Something to consider perhaps when one searched the scripture and found if these things were true or not the answer was easy, and fear was quickly squelched. As always it is the responsibility of each of us to search for the truth in each situation.
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WordWolf
Yes, it is true.
If you were willing to accept the ostracism,
the vicious lies spread about you by total strangers,
the "threats" to your family of demons killing them
("which member of your family do you want to die next?"
as one leader was quoted as saying)
and leap out from under God's protection
into a strange alien world where all other Christians were idiots-
then there was ALWAYS the door.
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