Ya gotta wonder why God requires us to repent and ask before HE grants forgiveness.....if there isn`t something very important and integral that we don`t understand in the process...which requires this.
Why doesn`t HE just grant automatic forgiveness and eternal life for any and all no matter how heinous they behave?
You`d think that having created us ...that he would understand our susceptibilities to sin and forgive us anyway.....but no he REQUIRES repentance and asking for forgiveness .... apparently there is something very necessary in order for it to be granted....and I DON`T think that is because he wants to punish...
I dunno why there would be two seperate definitions of forgiveness and how it functions.
When God quits requiring an apology, and repentance, then I guess so will I.
In the mean time I don`t feel guilty for not forgiving them when they haven`t met the criteria....they behaved like scum...they are still behaving like scum....I owe them nothing, not EVEN forgiveness.
Repentence is confessing the Savior: Romans 10:9, John 3:16, then God gives eternal life.
Forgiveness is confessing sins after salvation: I John 1:9
Why doesn`t HE just grant automatic forgiveness and eternal life for any and all no matter how heinous they behave?
He has given eternal life to us who believe.
Some folks believe that God grants everyone eternal life, no matter whether one believes in Christ, or not.
But I believe one must believe in Jesus, as the bible says.
Automatic forgiveness? God asks us (saved sinners) to confess our sins, and he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You only have the authority to forgive offenses against you -- If someone wronged someone else, I have no concern regarding forgiving. My responsibility would be ensuring that I maintain a kind kind of kindness.
That is your own prerrogative if you wanna forgive LCM.
DON'T PONTIFICATE OR JUDGE ME JUST BECAUSE I CHOOSE NOT TO FORGIVE THAT BASTARD!!!! IT IS MY OWN RIGHT AND MY OWN PRERROGATIVE!!!!
So by your logic, we should forgive Hitler for starting a war that killed millions of people along with his genocide programs? that we don't have the authority to forgive him because what he did was not done to us?
Let me phrase you something that I read from WW2, maybe you're familiar with it:
"When the Nazis went after the homosexual, I didn't speak up and do anything because I wasn't a homosexual.
When the Nazis went after the Jews, I didn't speak up and do anything because I wasn't a Jew.
When the Nazis went after the Catholics, I didn't speak up and do anything because I wasn't a Catholic.
When the Nazis went after me, there was no one who could speak up and do anything for me."
It's not the exact words, but you get the idea, heh?
Automatic forgiveness? God asks us (saved sinners) to confess our sins, and he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
BINGO! ...he is faithfull and just to forgive us AFTER we confess and ask ....and never before :)
I think that this is a very necessary part of the eqaution.
Free from Cults.....Sometimes I wonder if the automatic forgiveness deal can be a coping mechanism so that one doesn`t
have to address the issues created by really evil people.
Groucho.....Damned straight they would still be housing and enabeling a pervert if Paul Allen hadn`t held their feet to the fire...
You have to wonder just how many MORE people would have been used, how many more lives devistated...How many MORE people would still be in bondage in that cult .... if Paul A had just shrugged his shoulders...forgiven Craig and walked away.....
He deserved it, and apparently the court systems believed he was entitled as well :)
Twi sure didn`t want that information public and they paid through the nose to keep it quiet .... not to mention having to lkick out their top leader and money maker and chief abuser in order to do so!
Praise God the Allans stood up to the monster and required atonement .... Goliath couldn`t have been any more intimidating to David , then the giant corporate twi and all of their nasty attornies being faced down by one lone couple ...... for in doing so tens of thousands of people were released from their prison and have found lives of freedom :)
Welll lemmee see.... there were an estimated 25,000 participants BEFORE the Allen suite....less than 5000 participating adults within a couple of years after....hmmmm....math tells me that is over 20,000 people who have left twi....after lcm`s criminal activity was brought to light....also once the focus of the legal spotlight was shining brightly upon twi...a lot of OTHER criminal and liable conduct ceased as well :)
I don`t know what problem ANYONE could have with holding somebody legally liable for their criminal actions.
In this case it seems to have had far reaching impact for 20,000 plus people.
Thank God for the Allens and their courage :)
If they had quietly slunk away.... no lawsuit, no way dale and probably no greasespot....and then even those of us who had left anyway would be tortured with doubts and misgivings.
Oh, n as far as what the court systems of this country thought that the Allens were entitled to legally....who in the hell CARES what they did with it.....I cannot fathom why you think that you would have any valid imput into how they spent their money....or figure out why anybody would owe anything to charity or anybody else.
Jeeeeze as if decades of donated time, money, work, and prayer isn`t enough given in this life time .... <_<
What a rediculous notion that the Allens would owe anybody anything.
In my mind, *courage* would have been not taking the money, but instead having the trial, wherein all sides would have been subject to cross examination. I think that of twi as well.
there is a difference between God forgiving man, and man forgiving man.
I agree. There are different applicable scriptures too.
What tens of thousands? Last time I looked, TWI was still in business.
How many folks actually left because of the Allen's lawsuit? LCM, and a few others maybe. TWI is still there.
Whether they deserved what they got, is debatable, but here's what happened:
TWI gave, and they took.
Did they donate their winnings to charity after all their legal fees were paid?
Winnings? Is that whats its called?
I'm not sure if they donated to charity or not. You were asking right? I don't think they have to tell anyone what they did with it. They probably donated a solid percentage to Uncle Sam and the War vs Iraq though.
-i believe they would have taken the case to trial if they believed it would have shut TWI down.
-Getting LCM ousted was their prime objective.
-if they had not settled and just gone to trial the results would not have been that much different. LCM would still be ousted, some dirt on RFR and other ppl "high" up in TWI would have come out. but only LCM would have been legally effected by it. TWI would still be where it is today.
those are just my opinions, i dont know the allens.
i respect all the other opinions on here.
oldies has a great point though. It would have been very courageous from BOTH sides to NOT settle, and go through with the trial.
2 things happened though:
1. TWI offered a settlement.
2. The Allens took it.
or the allens asked for a settlement and twi said ok..
either way, TWI could have said, we want to go through with the trial because it was a ONE time thing, and only ONE guy was involved.
Mr. Allen ran the first web sight that most of us started finding out about what happened in twi.
He brought charges against lcm and a good many others at hq for what happened to his wife... seems to me there were over 50 counts....most having to do with rape and coersion.
Look at the front page of greasespot...I think there are links to the lawsuit.
I have done my best to forgive the whole bunch at TWI and work at forgiving anyone else who has done me wrong also. Gawd only knows the wrong I have done to others. From my personal experience forgiving does not require a confession on anyones part, only an attitude change on my part. It doesn't happen immediately, requires time, some longer than others, but it can happen.
Earlier someone mentioned a definition lcm once gave for forgiveness. Oh how I wish I hadn't lost that bible when my truck was stolen....but...I do remember the last part of his definition involved restoring the one forgiven to his original state in his fellowship (with you) as if the offence never occurred. That may not be word for word, but essentially that's what he said.
I'm not being ornery or deliberately mean. I believe that's God's standard for forgiveness, and I know I fall woefully short of if where lcm is concerned. I speak for myself only. I have a very long way to go to get there.
Earlier someone mentioned a definition lcm once gave for forgiveness. Oh how I wish I hadn't lost that bible when my truck was stolen....but...I do remember the last part of his definition involved restoring the one forgiven to his original state in his fellowship (with you) as if the offence never occurred. That may not be word for word, but essentially that's what he said.
You know, Krys, with that definition of "forgiveness," there is no doubt and should be no question why some people are unwilling to forgive. By that definition, you are to immeditately trust that person again, putting yourself back in the same vulnerable position where you just got hurt.
You (or anybody) can look up any concordance for the greek or hebrew words rendered as "forgive" (or variants) in the Bible. I've done it before and don't feel like doing it at 12:10 AM on Sunday Morning. Somebody else can if there is a doubt. (blueletterbible.org or another one) -- the actual definition means (IIRC) to put it away -- to let it go. Nothing else.
But if LCM taught what you stated about forgiveness, there's no wonder why it's so hard for so many. And there's also no doubt why the subject becomes such a violent one around here.
Mark is so right in what he says. The thing to remember is that forgiveness on my part, is for ME! It doesn't have that much to do with the person who wronged me. If I hold bitterness and grudges against those who have wronged ME in the past, I am a slave to that sin that was perpetrated against me. I get victimized over and over by letting that evil person and what they did come up in relationships I have presently.
Forgiving them, lets ME let it go, and move on in my life and relationships without being held captive by the past. Like mark said, I'm sure somebody can look up the verses and do a bible teaching on it, if they think it neccessary.
I don't.
I forgive, because it frees ME, to move on in my life. Period. I don't give a rat's behind if they deserve it or not, are dead or alive, or still sinning, or whatever.
I am not gonna carry the weight of THEIR SIN the rest of my life.
Rascal - is it possible that you are looking at this too closely?
I mean it could be that God wants us to forgive. There is the possibility that a person would repent and even ask for forgiveness and then is still not forgiven.
Forgive as we have been forgiven. Rom 10:9,10 says nothing about repentance yet at that moment forgiveness is granted. Jesus died on the cross before any of us repented.
So if a person wrongs you - go to that person and that person alone and tell him or her so. If they repent, forgive them and don't keep up the grudge.
Now if you can't get to that person, now what? Suppose that person dies? Suppose that person has repented but for some reason can't tell you.
What if that person never repents? What? Carry a grudge? Stay angry until that anger turns to hatred? If you forgive that person, that doesn't mean that you have to call them on the phone and tell them they are off the hook. It means that you and God have this agreement that you aren't going to let the offnese get in the way of your fellowship with Him.
Jesus asked the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do." Now with the exception of the robber/ malefactor ( forgot which) hanging next to him, who in the crowd repented and asked Jesus for forgiveness as they cheered his death?
It may not seem fair, it may not seem just - but that is how we show mercy and grace to others. That is how we mimic our Lord. That is how we become a Godly people.
So are you saying that your god will forgive even with no repentance... and we are to mimic that?
I see a whole other thing happening in many parts of the Bible, OT and NT.
Why talk about it in acient symantics.
Let it go? Sure. Absolutely.
Forgive the guy? I think not.
Rape and other abuses are not forgivable offences in my book. At least not without serious heart felt repentance and attemps to make amends.
Forgiving takes a few seconds of saying it out loud or to yourself.
Physical, sexual, verbal, psychological abuse takes a while to "let go."
Of course this guy, LCM, never did anything to me directly, but I think holding people accountable for their actions is a GOOD thing.
Am I going to loose any sleep over this? No
Do I hope the guy gets what's coming to him? Absolutely
I think I have let most things go yet I don't feel the need to forgive many of these people. Especially those who are still the same old manipulative, devisive, hypocrits.
So are you saying that your god will forgive even with no repentance... and we are to mimic that?
I see a whole other thing happening in many parts of the Bible, OT and NT.
Why talk about it in acient symantics.
Let it go? Sure. Absolutely.
Forgive the guy? I think not.
You say you'll let it go but not forgive.
Forgive
Forgive: aphiemi
1) to send away
a) to bid going away or depart
1) of a husband divorcing his wife
B) to send forth, yield up, to expire
c) to let go, let alone, let be
1) to disregard
2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
a) of teachers, writers and speakers
3) to omit, neglect
d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
e) to give up, keep no longer
width=50% align='center'>
That's all the Bible asks for you to do. Let it go. That's what 'forgive' means. Let it go. No more, no less.
Anything else is reconcilliation. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where there is a mandate to reconcile with he who sinned against you. Just a mandate to not let the sin eat you alive.
(I know most folk treat the two as one concept, but that's not what is written in the Bible. It also makes little sense in modern life)
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rascal
Ya gotta wonder why God requires us to repent and ask before HE grants forgiveness.....if there isn`t something very important and integral that we don`t understand in the process...which requires this.
Why doesn`t HE just grant automatic forgiveness and eternal life for any and all no matter how heinous they behave?
You`d think that having created us ...that he would understand our susceptibilities to sin and forgive us anyway.....but no he REQUIRES repentance and asking for forgiveness .... apparently there is something very necessary in order for it to be granted....and I DON`T think that is because he wants to punish...
I dunno why there would be two seperate definitions of forgiveness and how it functions.
When God quits requiring an apology, and repentance, then I guess so will I.
In the mean time I don`t feel guilty for not forgiving them when they haven`t met the criteria....they behaved like scum...they are still behaving like scum....I owe them nothing, not EVEN forgiveness.
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oldiesman
Easy for me to understand.
Repentence is for the unsaved sinner.
Forgiveness is for the saved sinner.
Repentence is confessing the Savior: Romans 10:9, John 3:16, then God gives eternal life.
Forgiveness is confessing sins after salvation: I John 1:9
He has given eternal life to us who believe.
Some folks believe that God grants everyone eternal life, no matter whether one believes in Christ, or not.
But I believe one must believe in Jesus, as the bible says.
Automatic forgiveness? God asks us (saved sinners) to confess our sins, and he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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FreeFromCults
That is your own prerrogative if you wanna forgive LCM.
DON'T PONTIFICATE OR JUDGE ME JUST BECAUSE I CHOOSE NOT TO FORGIVE THAT BASTARD!!!! IT IS MY OWN RIGHT AND MY OWN PRERROGATIVE!!!!
So by your logic, we should forgive Hitler for starting a war that killed millions of people along with his genocide programs? that we don't have the authority to forgive him because what he did was not done to us?
Let me phrase you something that I read from WW2, maybe you're familiar with it:
"When the Nazis went after the homosexual, I didn't speak up and do anything because I wasn't a homosexual.
When the Nazis went after the Jews, I didn't speak up and do anything because I wasn't a Jew.
When the Nazis went after the Catholics, I didn't speak up and do anything because I wasn't a Catholic.
When the Nazis went after me, there was no one who could speak up and do anything for me."
It's not the exact words, but you get the idea, heh?
Like I said: "To each their own".
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GrouchoMarxJr
Good point Rascal...
Some folks ask me why, after leaving twi nearly 20 years ago, I still post on the GreaseSpot...
...The answer is easy...because twi is unrepentant and STILL doing many of the same things.
As Bob Dylan once said:
"...and I'll stand on their grave till I'm sure that they're dead"
and I'm convinced that if Paul Allen hadn't started Waydale and brought the law suit...lcm would still be doing the same things...
oldies...quoting erroneous twi doctrine doesn't hold much sway with me.
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rascal
BINGO! ...he is faithfull and just to forgive us AFTER we confess and ask ....and never before :)
I think that this is a very necessary part of the eqaution.
Free from Cults.....Sometimes I wonder if the automatic forgiveness deal can be a coping mechanism so that one doesn`t
have to address the issues created by really evil people.
Groucho.....Damned straight they would still be housing and enabeling a pervert if Paul Allen hadn`t held their feet to the fire...
You have to wonder just how many MORE people would have been used, how many more lives devistated...How many MORE people would still be in bondage in that cult .... if Paul A had just shrugged his shoulders...forgiven Craig and walked away.....
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oldiesman
He did ... after he got his piece of the pie.
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rascal
He deserved it, and apparently the court systems believed he was entitled as well :)
Twi sure didn`t want that information public and they paid through the nose to keep it quiet .... not to mention having to lkick out their top leader and money maker and chief abuser in order to do so!
Praise God the Allans stood up to the monster and required atonement .... Goliath couldn`t have been any more intimidating to David , then the giant corporate twi and all of their nasty attornies being faced down by one lone couple ...... for in doing so tens of thousands of people were released from their prison and have found lives of freedom :)
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oldiesman
What tens of thousands? Last time I looked, TWI was still in business.
How many folks actually left because of the Allen's lawsuit? LCM, and a few others maybe. TWI is still there.
Whether they deserved what they got, is debatable, but here's what happened:
TWI gave, and they took.
Did they donate their winnings to charity after all their legal fees were paid?
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rascal
Welll lemmee see.... there were an estimated 25,000 participants BEFORE the Allen suite....less than 5000 participating adults within a couple of years after....hmmmm....math tells me that is over 20,000 people who have left twi....after lcm`s criminal activity was brought to light....also once the focus of the legal spotlight was shining brightly upon twi...a lot of OTHER criminal and liable conduct ceased as well :)
I don`t know what problem ANYONE could have with holding somebody legally liable for their criminal actions.
In this case it seems to have had far reaching impact for 20,000 plus people.
Thank God for the Allens and their courage :)
If they had quietly slunk away.... no lawsuit, no way dale and probably no greasespot....and then even those of us who had left anyway would be tortured with doubts and misgivings.
Oh, n as far as what the court systems of this country thought that the Allens were entitled to legally....who in the hell CARES what they did with it.....I cannot fathom why you think that you would have any valid imput into how they spent their money....or figure out why anybody would owe anything to charity or anybody else.
Jeeeeze as if decades of donated time, money, work, and prayer isn`t enough given in this life time .... <_<
What a rediculous notion that the Allens would owe anybody anything.
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nandon
there is a difference between God forgiving man, and man forgiving man.
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oldiesman
In my mind, *courage* would have been not taking the money, but instead having the trial, wherein all sides would have been subject to cross examination. I think that of twi as well.
I agree. There are different applicable scriptures too.
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nandon
Winnings? Is that whats its called?
I'm not sure if they donated to charity or not. You were asking right? I don't think they have to tell anyone what they did with it. They probably donated a solid percentage to Uncle Sam and the War vs Iraq though.
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oldiesman
Ah .. don't we all ...
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nandon
my opinion:
-im thankfull that the allens did what they did.
-i believe they would have taken the case to trial if they believed it would have shut TWI down.
-Getting LCM ousted was their prime objective.
-if they had not settled and just gone to trial the results would not have been that much different. LCM would still be ousted, some dirt on RFR and other ppl "high" up in TWI would have come out. but only LCM would have been legally effected by it. TWI would still be where it is today.
those are just my opinions, i dont know the allens.
i respect all the other opinions on here.
oldies has a great point though. It would have been very courageous from BOTH sides to NOT settle, and go through with the trial.
2 things happened though:
1. TWI offered a settlement.
2. The Allens took it.
or the allens asked for a settlement and twi said ok..
either way, TWI could have said, we want to go through with the trial because it was a ONE time thing, and only ONE guy was involved.
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doojable
Ok so I only know of one"Allens" those being the Howard Allens. Who are we talking about -or at least where can I find out.
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rascal
Dooj, No relation to howard....
Mr. Allen ran the first web sight that most of us started finding out about what happened in twi.
He brought charges against lcm and a good many others at hq for what happened to his wife... seems to me there were over 50 counts....most having to do with rape and coersion.
Look at the front page of greasespot...I think there are links to the lawsuit.
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Stayed Too Long
I have done my best to forgive the whole bunch at TWI and work at forgiving anyone else who has done me wrong also. Gawd only knows the wrong I have done to others. From my personal experience forgiving does not require a confession on anyones part, only an attitude change on my part. It doesn't happen immediately, requires time, some longer than others, but it can happen.
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krys
Earlier someone mentioned a definition lcm once gave for forgiveness. Oh how I wish I hadn't lost that bible when my truck was stolen....but...I do remember the last part of his definition involved restoring the one forgiven to his original state in his fellowship (with you) as if the offence never occurred. That may not be word for word, but essentially that's what he said.
I'm not being ornery or deliberately mean. I believe that's God's standard for forgiveness, and I know I fall woefully short of if where lcm is concerned. I speak for myself only. I have a very long way to go to get there.
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markomalley
You know, Krys, with that definition of "forgiveness," there is no doubt and should be no question why some people are unwilling to forgive. By that definition, you are to immeditately trust that person again, putting yourself back in the same vulnerable position where you just got hurt.
You (or anybody) can look up any concordance for the greek or hebrew words rendered as "forgive" (or variants) in the Bible. I've done it before and don't feel like doing it at 12:10 AM on Sunday Morning. Somebody else can if there is a doubt. (blueletterbible.org or another one) -- the actual definition means (IIRC) to put it away -- to let it go. Nothing else.
But if LCM taught what you stated about forgiveness, there's no wonder why it's so hard for so many. And there's also no doubt why the subject becomes such a violent one around here.
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rascal
For some unknown reason...God requires us to repent and ask before HE grants forgiveness.
Jesus said to forgive our brothers WHEN they repented....
Yet we are supposed to just pronounce someone forgiven without them completeing the apparently necessary first part of the equation...
I have yet to see anyone explain why forgiveness would have two different meanings or applications.
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ex10
Rascal, and Krys, whoever
Mark is so right in what he says. The thing to remember is that forgiveness on my part, is for ME! It doesn't have that much to do with the person who wronged me. If I hold bitterness and grudges against those who have wronged ME in the past, I am a slave to that sin that was perpetrated against me. I get victimized over and over by letting that evil person and what they did come up in relationships I have presently.
Forgiving them, lets ME let it go, and move on in my life and relationships without being held captive by the past. Like mark said, I'm sure somebody can look up the verses and do a bible teaching on it, if they think it neccessary.
I don't.
I forgive, because it frees ME, to move on in my life. Period. I don't give a rat's behind if they deserve it or not, are dead or alive, or still sinning, or whatever.
I am not gonna carry the weight of THEIR SIN the rest of my life.
I refuse.
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doojable
Rascal - is it possible that you are looking at this too closely?
I mean it could be that God wants us to forgive. There is the possibility that a person would repent and even ask for forgiveness and then is still not forgiven.
Forgive as we have been forgiven. Rom 10:9,10 says nothing about repentance yet at that moment forgiveness is granted. Jesus died on the cross before any of us repented.
So if a person wrongs you - go to that person and that person alone and tell him or her so. If they repent, forgive them and don't keep up the grudge.
Now if you can't get to that person, now what? Suppose that person dies? Suppose that person has repented but for some reason can't tell you.
What if that person never repents? What? Carry a grudge? Stay angry until that anger turns to hatred? If you forgive that person, that doesn't mean that you have to call them on the phone and tell them they are off the hook. It means that you and God have this agreement that you aren't going to let the offnese get in the way of your fellowship with Him.
Jesus asked the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do." Now with the exception of the robber/ malefactor ( forgot which) hanging next to him, who in the crowd repented and asked Jesus for forgiveness as they cheered his death?
It may not seem fair, it may not seem just - but that is how we show mercy and grace to others. That is how we mimic our Lord. That is how we become a Godly people.
IMHO
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lindyhopper
So are you saying that your god will forgive even with no repentance... and we are to mimic that?
I see a whole other thing happening in many parts of the Bible, OT and NT.
Why talk about it in acient symantics.
Let it go? Sure. Absolutely.
Forgive the guy? I think not.
Rape and other abuses are not forgivable offences in my book. At least not without serious heart felt repentance and attemps to make amends.
Forgiving takes a few seconds of saying it out loud or to yourself.
Physical, sexual, verbal, psychological abuse takes a while to "let go."
Of course this guy, LCM, never did anything to me directly, but I think holding people accountable for their actions is a GOOD thing.
Am I going to loose any sleep over this? No
Do I hope the guy gets what's coming to him? Absolutely
I think I have let most things go yet I don't feel the need to forgive many of these people. Especially those who are still the same old manipulative, devisive, hypocrits.
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markomalley
You say you'll let it go but not forgive.
width=50% align='center'>
That's all the Bible asks for you to do. Let it go. That's what 'forgive' means. Let it go. No more, no less.
Anything else is reconcilliation. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where there is a mandate to reconcile with he who sinned against you. Just a mandate to not let the sin eat you alive.
(I know most folk treat the two as one concept, but that's not what is written in the Bible. It also makes little sense in modern life)
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