The bottom line, Lindy, is that I'm saying the Bible instructs us to "let it go." The fact that the word "forgive" is used in the KJV translation is of minimal relevence, particularly considering the modern definition of the word. The instruction is to "let it go." If you subscribe to the Bible, you'd do well to do so. If you don't, you'd still do well to consider that course, as there is no healthy outcome to doing otherwise.
Well said Mr. O'Malley, and you as well Doojable...
I simply hold lcm to the standard that God requires in the scriptures.
When he repents, I am honor bound to forgive him....like it or not. But then again....see I don`t HAVE a problem anymore with one who repents....we all mess up .... no doubt about it.
A christian when they wrong their brother is supposed to not only repent but apologise and make restitution if possible.
An apology ...an admitance of having done wrong would not be a big deal to a genuine christian. If one however, was still filled with arrogance and pride, if one thought he was still the mighty mog....unthinkable.
If I understand people here....I OWE him and the other leaders forgiveness when they cannot even work up the decency to offer an apology?
They owe ME an apology and God repentance...the burden is on them. I don`t see a problem if they are christians.
Kit I respect you, God`s honest truth and I wouldn`t want to offend you for the world.....and I am not trying to be spitefull in my arguments.....but I am going to try to explain why I am troubled by what you wrote......This is what it seems like you are saying...it appears like a threat of us of *turning bitter* ....You`d better do this or else... to get me to give something to someone that is not theirs....that they have in noway earned or met the requirements to recieve. This reminds me way to much of how twi stole from us.
I think every one who is quoting the verses on forgiveness are not taking into account the basic premise of what God requires in order for this to be offered.
There is not a single definition or example scripturally where anyone has been able to point out that there are two different definitions or standards....for forgiveness....
I don`t see God cutting anybody any slack anywhere without repentance....on the contrary...people dropped dead left and right in the scriptures when they didn`t repent.
I don`t think that we have the right to arbitrarily change the definitions or standards set out ... no matter how noble it may sound.
I have not offered forgiveness and yet I do not feel the *poisoning of soul* that I have been repeatedly been threatened with.
I Have to wonder if forgiveness without repentance does the one who has sinned any good .... We raise children to repent or face the consequences on a daily basis...why? because we don`t love them enough to forgive them?
No, because we do love them and want them to apreciate the consequences of actions and develope into responsible law abiding adults with good morals and charatcer.
My anger for the viscious treatment of ourselves ...the destruction of the lives of our precious brothers and sisters....by viscious thieves is implacable...HOWEVER ...it is directed at them and them alone....it does not affect the other parts of my life....
I think that the ominous danger threatened of being *bitter* if I don`t comply with someone`s idea of what they feel I ought to do in spite of how God shows....isn`t fair.
Kit...this isn`t about me being subborn or unforgiving or bitter......I need to understand where in the scripture that the definition has changed before I will ever allow anyone to tell me I oughtta just because it sounds like a good idea....
I know there are scriptures telling us to forgive....they also tell us God forgives and though it doesn`t always add when the sinner repents...we know that it is required in God`s case........ but where does it say that our forgiveness is to be operated differently than his?
If TWI's depiction of God and TWI's depiction of eternity are correct, there is no justice, because, in the long run, he'll get away with it, provided at one point in his miserable life he confessed the Lord Jesus and believed God raised him from the dead. It matters not how many women he raped, how many lives he ruined, how many suicides he caused, how much money he embezzled, etc. He would not need to express any kind of remorse (before God or before men), he would need to pay no kind of penalty whatsoever.
Not quite Mark. We were taught in twi that the penalty we paid was loss of rewards. That explanation may have its flaws, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than being cut off forever.
THAT, being CUT OFF FOREVER, would be unjust in my mind.
Toiletbowl duty for a few hundred years might be better.
I think those who subscribe to TWI theology should ask some serious questions of their God: first of all, how could God allow such an injustice to occur, that a man who blasphemed God's Holy Name and never expressed the first sign of remorse would be able to have the vision of God and an eternity with Him?
Well, I don't know anyone in twi who blasphemed God's Holy Name.
I don't know anyone who has committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
I don't know anyone in twi ( and wouldn't know ) whether someone has never expressed remorse for their sins for that is an inside job.
Do any among us know that Lcm & others weren't sorry and remorseful for their sins?
One can't really know this, but I think it's more likely that Lcm and VP and the rest sincerely asked God for forgiveness, knowing about God's love mercy and forgiveness.
Ex 10 that is a very good point....Lets see *love our enemies* depends on what *love* means in this context...feed em? cloth em? let em take everything ? murder our faamilies? pray for em?
What does it mean?
I remember the children of isreal as being mighty implacable with their enemies.
I remember Jesus telling us to stay away from false prophets and those who handle the scriptures decietfully.
I never saw him asking people to forgive the money changers of the pharacees...or the people who would harm a child.
We of all people need to question WHY we believe what we believe....and Is it scriptural? We have seen first hand how the bible and scriptures can be used to ensnare and enslave. How verses with a little tweaking can destroy a person...
Me.... I kind of wonder if it isn`t like having a dangerous pit bull in a pen... you don`t hate em... you keep em fed you water em...you don`t abuse them ....but after they have savaged someone....you never ever let them out or trust them....not without some serious change in attitude....maybe then you train them and allow them out on a leash....but your are responsible to protect people from that viscious dog.
You warn people to stay away, you place signes all around warning innocent people...it isn`t about hate, but about protecting people from a viscious animal. It wouldn`t be right to forgive the dog and turn him out and go on our merry way because we just love him so darned much.
'
He is viscious we know it and we are honor bound to protect any innocent bystanders.
"Do any among us know that Lcm & others weren't sorry and remorseful for their sins?
One can't really know this, but I think it's more likely that Lcm and VP and the rest sincerely asked God for forgiveness, knowing about God's love mercy and forgiveness."
All due respect, Oldies, but if they asked God, well, great. That's between them and God. But what about the body of believers? They held the household up to sometimes impossible standards, and yet showed by their actions something quite different.
Teaching people the screwed up standards for leadership led those who were taught to screw others up. Seems to me that the slate needs to be publically wiped clean: too many people's lives were derailed.
Rascal, I think that is where the boundary lies. Just because I chose to forgive someone, it's for ME, MYSLEF, AND I. Does it mean that the person I chose to forgive is released from accountablity for their own actions? Heck no.
Does it mean I naively allow that person to victimize me again? NO! Does it mean I make excuses for them? NO!
Forgiveness comes from a position of great strength, not weakness. When I chose to forgive someone who has wronged me, I am reaching out to Jesus Christ and his strength, mercy, love and freeing myself from another's sin against me.
Reconciliation with that person may or may not be a factor. But it's a different issue.
All due respect, Oldies, but if they asked God, well, great. That's between them and God. But what about the body of believers? They held the household up to sometimes impossible standards, and yet showed by their actions something quite different.
Well yes I think it would be appropriate for Lcm to make a public apology for all the lives he hurt; but in the meantime, I've forgiven him, and moved on with my life.
I forgave him for dismissing me from the corps, even though I know others who committed equal or more horrible acts were allowed to stay and treated fairer than me. But the guy is human, he made lots of errors and mistakes, and God knows I've made my share.
God made it simple: even as Christ forgave me, so I do Lcm.
And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our debtors (I learned it as - “those who trespass against us.”)
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Any mention of asking for forgiveness? No? Hmmmm… Lets try another.
Matt 9:2,3,5
And behold they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise and walk?
I still don’t see that man asking for forgiveness.
Now finally, in Luke 17 we see the big IF:
Luke 17:1-5 Context: the verse before Jesus tells his disciples, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke17:1-5
Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, through they come!
It were better that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee , rebuke him; and if he repent; forgive him.
And if he transpass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Now here we find asking for forgiveness. Notice the consequences for those through which offenses come – (lcm anyone?) I also see that in this case the offended party needed to rebuke him (them.) Then IF he repented and asked for forgiveness - then you MUST forgive. (BTW Did anyone here rebuke lcm? I hope so, if you had the opportunity.)
All this does not mean that you cannot forgive without being asked. Are you “obligated to forgive?” I don’t think so. But I am hard pressed to say that forgiveness cannot come without repentance.
There’s more - I’m sure – on both sides. I also seem to remember a passage I can’t find right now that says something to the effect that it’s easy to love the loveable, it’s loving the unlovable that is hard and is to be our trademark. (Mark can you help me out here?)
So, if you want to forgive – go ahead. If not, don’t. But I will repeat that if you are one of those who has chosen to “let it go” you have already “forgiven.”
But I say unto you, Love yur enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The cite in Luke 6:30-38 is similiar but I will not quote it all ( this one endes with the encouragement to be merciful even as our Father is merciful)- I will however quote the last few verses:
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Give and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Now this last verse was always used when twi wanted us to give more denaro $$$$$. I see from the context that it refers to mercy, and forgiveness. If you measure out with a thimble it shall come back pressed down shaken together and running over with a thimble. if you use a bucket ot a backhoe - well that's the measure that will be overflowing.
I usually ask myself what's my unit of measure for forgiveness...
straying a little, but I am curious how cofortable any of you are with the the other side of the Luke 6:37 equation.
Judge, and ye shall be judged: condemn, and ye shall be condemned: forgive not, and ye shall not be forgiven: give not, and it shall not be given unto you.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"
That is the question. Look at who it was written to or better yet the context. It was to leaders and not the people following. In other words. People that did not follow the word the leaders were supposed to forgive. This verse has nothing to do with what the leaders did to the "church". If leaders did this to the people they would have been killed.
I don't have a problem with forgiveness. I have a problem with people who INSIST that I forgive them as means to avoid the consequences of their actions. In my view God forgave us at a specific time and he did it so he could have a better more meaningful relationship with us. Seems to me that lots of people seek forgiveness just so they can forget about the wrong they've perpetrated on some one and not because they want to have a better relationship. After you "forgive" them they are off on their merry way and forget things. This is what I've seen with some former Way leaders - at least the ones who actually bring up the topic of forgiveness. And when they do they like to use the "Get over it" terminology a great deal as if I OWE them forgiveness on the spot or on demand. No way ! Thats BS of the highest order and no one should fall for that.
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J0nny Ling0
Well said Mr. O'Malley, and you as well Doojable...
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rascal
That is a wrong assumption dooj.
I simply hold lcm to the standard that God requires in the scriptures.
When he repents, I am honor bound to forgive him....like it or not. But then again....see I don`t HAVE a problem anymore with one who repents....we all mess up .... no doubt about it.
A christian when they wrong their brother is supposed to not only repent but apologise and make restitution if possible.
An apology ...an admitance of having done wrong would not be a big deal to a genuine christian. If one however, was still filled with arrogance and pride, if one thought he was still the mighty mog....unthinkable.
If I understand people here....I OWE him and the other leaders forgiveness when they cannot even work up the decency to offer an apology?
They owe ME an apology and God repentance...the burden is on them. I don`t see a problem if they are christians.
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Kit Sober
Bitterness has a way of taking root in our soul and bringing forth bitter fruit against those we love.
That's one of the prices of refusing to forgive.
Another price is the Lord's voice "I told you so," rather than, "Here you go."
Hoping to forgive more,
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justloafing
I am all over that Rascle........I feel the exact same way. Lets put it this way.....they would just about have to be on their knees begging.
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ex10
The question that comes up for me is this: As a Christian, I am commanded to "love my enemies."
How can I do this, without forgiveness? And is my "love" dependent on the actions of others?
Didn't Jesus talk about "loving only those who love us?"
I can't find anyplace in the bible where it says I am only to love and forgive those who repent.
Am I missing something here?
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rascal
Kit I respect you, God`s honest truth and I wouldn`t want to offend you for the world.....and I am not trying to be spitefull in my arguments.....but I am going to try to explain why I am troubled by what you wrote......This is what it seems like you are saying...it appears like a threat of us of *turning bitter* ....You`d better do this or else... to get me to give something to someone that is not theirs....that they have in noway earned or met the requirements to recieve. This reminds me way to much of how twi stole from us.
I think every one who is quoting the verses on forgiveness are not taking into account the basic premise of what God requires in order for this to be offered.
There is not a single definition or example scripturally where anyone has been able to point out that there are two different definitions or standards....for forgiveness....
I don`t see God cutting anybody any slack anywhere without repentance....on the contrary...people dropped dead left and right in the scriptures when they didn`t repent.
I don`t think that we have the right to arbitrarily change the definitions or standards set out ... no matter how noble it may sound.
I have not offered forgiveness and yet I do not feel the *poisoning of soul* that I have been repeatedly been threatened with.
I Have to wonder if forgiveness without repentance does the one who has sinned any good .... We raise children to repent or face the consequences on a daily basis...why? because we don`t love them enough to forgive them?
No, because we do love them and want them to apreciate the consequences of actions and develope into responsible law abiding adults with good morals and charatcer.
My anger for the viscious treatment of ourselves ...the destruction of the lives of our precious brothers and sisters....by viscious thieves is implacable...HOWEVER ...it is directed at them and them alone....it does not affect the other parts of my life....
I think that the ominous danger threatened of being *bitter* if I don`t comply with someone`s idea of what they feel I ought to do in spite of how God shows....isn`t fair.
Kit...this isn`t about me being subborn or unforgiving or bitter......I need to understand where in the scripture that the definition has changed before I will ever allow anyone to tell me I oughtta just because it sounds like a good idea....
I know there are scriptures telling us to forgive....they also tell us God forgives and though it doesn`t always add when the sinner repents...we know that it is required in God`s case........ but where does it say that our forgiveness is to be operated differently than his?
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oldiesman
Not quite Mark. We were taught in twi that the penalty we paid was loss of rewards. That explanation may have its flaws, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than being cut off forever.
THAT, being CUT OFF FOREVER, would be unjust in my mind.
Toiletbowl duty for a few hundred years might be better.
Well, I don't know anyone in twi who blasphemed God's Holy Name.
I don't know anyone who has committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
I don't know anyone in twi ( and wouldn't know ) whether someone has never expressed remorse for their sins for that is an inside job.
Do any among us know that Lcm & others weren't sorry and remorseful for their sins?
One can't really know this, but I think it's more likely that Lcm and VP and the rest sincerely asked God for forgiveness, knowing about God's love mercy and forgiveness.
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oldiesman
Golly, even Ward Cleaver can see that.
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ex10
Rascal
Could it be there is some confusion between forgiveness and reconciliation? As mark pointed out?
I don't see repentance as a pre-requisite for forgiveness, but denfinitely for reconciliation. FWIW
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rascal
Ex 10 that is a very good point....Lets see *love our enemies* depends on what *love* means in this context...feed em? cloth em? let em take everything ? murder our faamilies? pray for em?
What does it mean?
I remember the children of isreal as being mighty implacable with their enemies.
I remember Jesus telling us to stay away from false prophets and those who handle the scriptures decietfully.
I never saw him asking people to forgive the money changers of the pharacees...or the people who would harm a child.
We of all people need to question WHY we believe what we believe....and Is it scriptural? We have seen first hand how the bible and scriptures can be used to ensnare and enslave. How verses with a little tweaking can destroy a person...
Me.... I kind of wonder if it isn`t like having a dangerous pit bull in a pen... you don`t hate em... you keep em fed you water em...you don`t abuse them ....but after they have savaged someone....you never ever let them out or trust them....not without some serious change in attitude....maybe then you train them and allow them out on a leash....but your are responsible to protect people from that viscious dog.
You warn people to stay away, you place signes all around warning innocent people...it isn`t about hate, but about protecting people from a viscious animal. It wouldn`t be right to forgive the dog and turn him out and go on our merry way because we just love him so darned much.
'
He is viscious we know it and we are honor bound to protect any innocent bystanders.
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topoftheworld
"Do any among us know that Lcm & others weren't sorry and remorseful for their sins?
One can't really know this, but I think it's more likely that Lcm and VP and the rest sincerely asked God for forgiveness, knowing about God's love mercy and forgiveness."
All due respect, Oldies, but if they asked God, well, great. That's between them and God. But what about the body of believers? They held the household up to sometimes impossible standards, and yet showed by their actions something quite different.
Teaching people the screwed up standards for leadership led those who were taught to screw others up. Seems to me that the slate needs to be publically wiped clean: too many people's lives were derailed.
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ex10
Rascal, I think that is where the boundary lies. Just because I chose to forgive someone, it's for ME, MYSLEF, AND I. Does it mean that the person I chose to forgive is released from accountablity for their own actions? Heck no.
Does it mean I naively allow that person to victimize me again? NO! Does it mean I make excuses for them? NO!
Forgiveness comes from a position of great strength, not weakness. When I chose to forgive someone who has wronged me, I am reaching out to Jesus Christ and his strength, mercy, love and freeing myself from another's sin against me.
Reconciliation with that person may or may not be a factor. But it's a different issue.
I don't know how to say it any better.
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Tom Strange
Surely you jest OM. This topic alone could take up a whole thread, heck... a whole section! :blink:
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oldiesman
Well yes I think it would be appropriate for Lcm to make a public apology for all the lives he hurt; but in the meantime, I've forgiven him, and moved on with my life.
I forgave him for dismissing me from the corps, even though I know others who committed equal or more horrible acts were allowed to stay and treated fairer than me. But the guy is human, he made lots of errors and mistakes, and God knows I've made my share.
God made it simple: even as Christ forgave me, so I do Lcm.
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rascal
Not before you asked oldies....did he? I agree it IS simple.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
just my 2 cents
i would rather forgive than to have that bitter feleling of hate in my gut
it ain't easy but it feels good when that bitter knot in your gut goes away
and i a am not just speaking of twi
do i have to forgive?
i don't think so
but it sure is easier
i even like my ex wife now!!
and i thought i hated her for years
hell she owes me 30 grand which i will never see but that is ok
she is a wonderful woman
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oldiesman
Yes. He died for my sins before I asked ... I'd say that qualifies.
Had he lived by the approach you are arguing, he'd have waited for others to come to him, before taking action.
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doojable
Let’s see: ( me in bold, scripture in italics.)
Matt 6:12,14,15
And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our debtors (I learned it as - “those who trespass against us.”)
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Any mention of asking for forgiveness? No? Hmmmm… Lets try another.
Matt 9:2,3,5
And behold they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise and walk?
I still don’t see that man asking for forgiveness.
Now finally, in Luke 17 we see the big IF:
Luke 17:1-5 Context: the verse before Jesus tells his disciples, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke17:1-5
Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, through they come!
It were better that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee , rebuke him; and if he repent; forgive him.
And if he transpass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Now here we find asking for forgiveness. Notice the consequences for those through which offenses come – (lcm anyone?) I also see that in this case the offended party needed to rebuke him (them.) Then IF he repented and asked for forgiveness - then you MUST forgive. (BTW Did anyone here rebuke lcm? I hope so, if you had the opportunity.)
All this does not mean that you cannot forgive without being asked. Are you “obligated to forgive?” I don’t think so. But I am hard pressed to say that forgiveness cannot come without repentance.
There’s more - I’m sure – on both sides. I also seem to remember a passage I can’t find right now that says something to the effect that it’s easy to love the loveable, it’s loving the unlovable that is hard and is to be our trademark. (Mark can you help me out here?)
So, if you want to forgive – go ahead. If not, don’t. But I will repeat that if you are one of those who has chosen to “let it go” you have already “forgiven.”
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ex10
dooj
It's in Matt. 5 and Luke 6.
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doojable
Thanks Ex10
Matt 5:43
But I say unto you, Love yur enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The cite in Luke 6:30-38 is similiar but I will not quote it all ( this one endes with the encouragement to be merciful even as our Father is merciful)- I will however quote the last few verses:
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Give and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Now this last verse was always used when twi wanted us to give more denaro $$$$$. I see from the context that it refers to mercy, and forgiveness. If you measure out with a thimble it shall come back pressed down shaken together and running over with a thimble. if you use a bucket ot a backhoe - well that's the measure that will be overflowing.
I usually ask myself what's my unit of measure for forgiveness...
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lindyhopper
straying a little, but I am curious how cofortable any of you are with the the other side of the Luke 6:37 equation.
Judge, and ye shall be judged: condemn, and ye shall be condemned: forgive not, and ye shall not be forgiven: give not, and it shall not be given unto you.
Interesting.
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justloafing
"Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"
That is the question. Look at who it was written to or better yet the context. It was to leaders and not the people following. In other words. People that did not follow the word the leaders were supposed to forgive. This verse has nothing to do with what the leaders did to the "church". If leaders did this to the people they would have been killed.
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lindyhopper
well if that is true then scratch what i asked
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diazbro
I don't have a problem with forgiveness. I have a problem with people who INSIST that I forgive them as means to avoid the consequences of their actions. In my view God forgave us at a specific time and he did it so he could have a better more meaningful relationship with us. Seems to me that lots of people seek forgiveness just so they can forget about the wrong they've perpetrated on some one and not because they want to have a better relationship. After you "forgive" them they are off on their merry way and forget things. This is what I've seen with some former Way leaders - at least the ones who actually bring up the topic of forgiveness. And when they do they like to use the "Get over it" terminology a great deal as if I OWE them forgiveness on the spot or on demand. No way ! Thats BS of the highest order and no one should fall for that.
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