LCM taught that true FORGIVENESS can not be given unless there has been swift judgement and sentence - until the crime or trespass has been "paid for" appropriately... (forgive me... there's a word I'm looking for here... I'll probably think of it later...) He taught that until then that any "forgiveness" is just superficial. I believe I heard this either at an Advance Class or a Corps Night - perhaps some of you also heard the same teaching.
I believe that what LCM did was criminal. Here was a man who taught others about right vs. wrong, yet he somehow made his actions acceptable in his own mind to justify his repetition of them for decades. He hurt many people and he had help doing it (i.e. R@mon@, RFR, and others named in the A!!en's lawsuit). At the lowest common denominator, he needs to pay for what he has done just to the women and their families he has hurt. He hasn't apologized, come clean, asked for forgiveness - none of it. He didn't even address the issue with the staffers at HQ face-to-face -- they learned about the lawsuit, etc. the same way that everyone else did - via v-i-d-e-o. That alone was just WRONG.
LCM was removed as president long after the news of the lawsuit broke. I believe it was never TWI's intention to remove him, but that it was eventually done because he was seen as a liability. In other words, it was on the advise of his lawyers, I think. It certainly would appear to be that way. He is now working a blue-collar job, living without his wife and children. He brought shame to the ministry and his family. His loss is really nothing compared to the overall damage he inflicted on others. He forced his selfish desires upon women who did not want him - women who were married, engaged - just wanted to say "no". They could not. Period. VPW did the same thing - he was really no better or worse - but that's another thread.
I don't think LCM, per his own teaching, has repaid his victims or families properly. If he had, then why is he still getting pulled into court? A REAL face-to-face encounter with his former prey and their significant others, families, etc, is the LEAST he could do. They should be allowed to confront him. They've been double cheated - once when the incident(s) happened, and again when he basically went "underground" because he never did anything face-to-face unless he absolutely had to. He's been a liar, a coward, and a cheat. He hasn't taken ownership for his actions enough.
LCM doesn't deserve forgiveness. If people forgive him, then that's up to them - call it grace. Call it a generous donation. I've already donated enough to him/TWI... thanks.
When I say my prayers at night I have a little section that goes something like this
Heavenly Father, don't hold my enemies sins against them when they stand before you, please make sure they have good food, a warm dry place to live and good clothing
Note what I don't say
I don't say they are absolved from what they did
I don't say I'll ever trust them
I don't say that they should not face the legal penalties, if any, their actions require
I don't say what they did was alright
I don't say that I'm not "displeased" with what they did even today
I ask that when all is said and done, and we all face Heavenly Father- that on the list of the sins imputed to them the ones toward me not be included.
I disagree with Martindale's take on forgiveness. In life, people do terrible things and will never "pay" for it. Many of those wronged will never see "justice." Just as Christ forgave those that killed him, I'm sure the perpertrators never paid for what they did in this life, they just went on about their lives.
To me, forgiveness is not for the other person, they'll probably never know if I've forgiven them or not. Forgiveness is for me, for my benefit.
The Word tells us to walk in light and not in darkness. In my life, I forgive so that I may walk in light, not darkness. When we have anger, rage, something gnawing at us, in some ways we walk in darkness - there's always a cloud hovering in us in the back of our minds. We truly cannot be free to walk as free as we may desire to.
Forgiveness I think, is more for a person's own walk, is more to free the individual wronged, and not the one who did the wrong. Its for my benefit, not necessarily the other person's benefit.
FYI, we didn't even see a video of lcm admitting his "one-time sexual affair" or the time he announced he would step down. We heard it all via a-u-d-i-o. It just proves he's even a bigger WOOS!!
Don't be sorry. My only point in saying that is that some were victimized and traumatized in a very different way than others of us. I do volunteer counseling at my church, and sexual abuse is a very hard issue to resolve. Forgiveness is difficult and can take alot of hard work and time.
I am in favor of forgiving a person - any person - regardless of whether or not they ask for it. I see the forgiveness as something that releases me and frees me. If the other person repents and/or asks for forgiveness - well then that's a benefit to them. This is how I get to live out grace and mercy - and extend it to others.
Now that is not to say that I TRUST a person even though I've forgiven them. Trust has to be earned and the more heinious the offense the harder a person has to work back to trust - forgiven or not.
So I forgive but I don't forget - that's God's category he casts the offense as far as the east is form the west. Me, I have to remember the offense: 1so that I don't get fooled again, and 2 because forgiveness can be an ongoing thing.
We always think of forgiveness as a final thing - but I think of it in layers. We might forgive stuff then realize that there's more to it - then we have to work through that forgiveness. It's a process.
Ex10 - To be fair Jonny wasn't saying that women were going around tepmting these scumbags.
He as saying that HE was tempted to give in to that certain someone who tempted HIM.
I think that many way leaders want you to forgive them so they can rest easier about things they have done in the past. (e.g. "Whew - I don't have to worry about that guy anymore"). This approach is selfish and doesn't even begin to address the fundamental problems of disprespect.
While I read the bible and even go to church on a semi-regular basis I've changed my view on forgiveness a great deal. I forgive only when I'm ready because if I don't provide forgiveness in a genuine, authentic manner then it is simply a hollow gesture and I'm just going through the motions. Ultimately nothing is accomplished. So in my view its better to arrive at that right place in time to provide the forgivness.
After all, God waited for the birth of JC and his resurrection. Adam and Eve sinned yet God didn't immediately turn around and say "okay no problem. I'll just push the reset button and we'll pretend like it didn't happen". No. Far from it. There was a long
process whereby this forgiveness was provided. I'm sure Adam and Eve deeply wanted to be forgiven but they and many generations following had to endure the consequences of their actions. It was only much,much later that mankind as a race received the forgiveness that earlier generations so desperately wanted.
There is a lesson here somewhere and I think part of its meaning is that you give forgiveness when YOU are ready - NOT when the other person is seeking it or trying to bully you into it. They feel guilty and want to stop feeling that way so they come to you in a false way to get you to clear the debt so to speak. Sorry, I'll do it when I think its the right time. Its not like I'm sitting there imagining revenge scenarios or foaming
with rage - far from it. I get on with my life no matter what. God forgave mankind when WE most needed it and not one moment before - so there is in fact the concept of "when" to forgive someone. This way when you do do it , then its very genuine and authentic.
I need to be fair to you. But first of all, what Doojable just said about me and my post is true. I definitely was NOT saying that our lovely women were running around tempting the top leaders. I was saying that I was tempted to follow through on that gals' advances. I mean, hey, I'm gettin my pants hemmed and she holds the tape tight up into my inseam for a really long time while grininng at me, and then she flat out grabs IT. And so, being a guy, I was really tempted. But, I was also confuesd over the whole thing, because I was a first year Corps guy, and I just didn't see how this fit with "It Is Written", and this coming from a clergy gal and Corps grad. It threw a wrench into my idealistic thinking...
But, I am also willing to admit, that it certainly was not the same as what you described, even though it was my flesh that was sought after, just the same as with you. For I know that if this gal actually tried to hold me against my will, I would easily have brushed her aside with a laugh and with the greatest of ease, walked on out. Not so easily done by a woman being held by a large jock of a man like LCM. With a woman in that situation, there is obviously going to be way more fear of the rape scene. The truth is, the ratio of men getting raped compared to women is way lopsided. Women are far more often the prey of the male predator, except for when men are in jail I guess. And so, I also have to say that it wasn't all that traumatic to me. If I was locked in a room with LCM as you say (and I was a girl), and he "wanted me"), I guess I'd be scared too, unless I was Lara Croft or, Zena, Warrior Princess! I will say though, and I've said it before, that my wife when she was young and single and in the 7th Corps, LCM tried to "get her" in his hotel room, groped her breasts, caused her great hurt and confusion, but to his shame, she gave him an instant Bible lesson on adultery, the Love Of God, and, the Way Corps Motto of "It Is Written". And he then, shamefacedly, watched her stomp out of the hotel room.
There are things that happened to me publicly that were FAR more humiliating to me than that situation (the one with me, not the one with my wife). I guess I just took exception to what you said because it seems sometimes that many women have thought that being sexually harrassed only happens to women, and I felt like pointing out that "you weren't the only ones". But, I do stand corrected (by my Strange Friend Tom in a private message) that it was worse for you all than it was for me in that situation. Okay? Sorry...
But, but, but!, I still believe that no matter what the hurt, as Sunesis said so well, I do believe that the forgiving of another is primarily for the victim, and not the predator. One time, when in Alaska, a certain Limb Coordinator, sprang a surprise "reproof meeting" on me, where I was the focus of the reproof. All of the people in my Twig Area (five Twigs) were there. He accused me of all kinds of evil deeds which simply were not true at all. My wife was even sucked into it, and I felt as if the whole world had vomited upon me. He did it with arrogance and a pridefull spirit, and he was wrong. Those details are not worth repeating, but I will tell you, this was far worse to me than some single gal grabbing my tallywhacker! Hell, I'd rather have that happen to me any day of the week compared to that! At any rate, I was so humiliated, I went and took a job as a mate on a commercial halibut boat, and said to my wife; "See ya, I go a fishin!" And I was gone for a week straight with out a word from me. And oh, did we kill fish! One of 'em was a 280 pounder, and we had to harpoon him to get him into the boat, and then we had to shoot him in the head with a .357 magnum! Way cool! Just what Dr. Jehovah Rapha (the lord our physician) ordered! It wasn't quite as grand as when Peter obeyed Jesus and almost sunk his boat with fish, but we did well! And when we got back into port at Homer, Alaska, we tore it up, got drunk, and I had a really good time! Went to "Alices Champagne Palace" as a matter of fact. Fine place. Jerry Jeff Walker played there, but sadly, the week before I got there. Can't have it all I spose. And also during that time, I was purposefully skipping the meeting with the LC where they discussed "this new "Passing Of A Patriarch business."
And so look EX10, like you said, one person's hurt may not be the same as another's, but, who is to judge how one thing will hurt another more than someone else? Just maybe having my whole existance called into question by some Reverend whom my friends and wife looked at as "an authority" is also very very bad and very very hurtful. Once my wife saw through it all, she took a long time to forgive him as well. And, it was easier for her to forgive LCM for his "attempt at boffing her" than it was for her to forgive the LC for slandering me publicly and causing her to doubt me...
But just the same, even though he, the LC never apologized to me or acknowledged that he was wrong, I still forgave him. Like I said before, for me, personally, forgiving those who wronged me is a "pressure relief valve" (PRV). I am a marine engineer, and this analogy fits for me just perfectly. When the pressure in a boiler gets beyond the capacity that that particular boiler is designed to hold, that PRV simply pops, blows the excess steam into the air, and the machinery is saved from an internal explosion. And not only is it logical by way of lots of analogies, Jesus said to do it, and I believe in Jesus...
Don't be sorry. My only point in saying that is that some were victimized and traumatized in a very different way than others of us. I do volunteer counseling at my church, and sexual abuse is a very hard issue to resolve. Forgiveness is difficult and can take alot of hard work and time.
Unless you've been there.....well, you know.
Ex,
I posted this not even thinking about what OTHERS went through.
And when you wrote what you wrote it hit me hard. Even though I was hurt, OTHERS were hurt even worse.
To all those that were victimized I'm sorry I even broght this topic up. I hope it didn't frustrate you to see some dude whining (selfishly) about how he wanted to be able to forgive the guy that preyed on them.
Much respect to the victims. I wish i could do something to help justice be served, or help them in recovery.
I need to be less selfish. Focus on the positives in my life, and look for ways to help others.
thanks ex, from what i see of you on here, you are a good person. Helping others the way you do at your church. An "Inspiration" you are.
Thanks to all those who replyed to this topic. Helped me see different perspectives.
I understand where ex10 is coming from--the amount of forgiveness I am willing to grant as stated above was a long time coming--Years and years--and there are still days when I t all comes rushing back--and well I start over again,
Each one of us has certain things that are more hurtful than they are to other people-- each one of us needs their own time frame to come to the point of forgiveness--and I would say that ex10 working as she does with other victims, has put her anger, hurt, rage to excellent use.
Ultimately it is between you and the person in the mirror and no one should feel lessened because they are running their train on a different timetable.
Ultimately it is between you and the person in the mirror and no one should feel lessened because they are running their train on a different timetable.
That's a very nice way to put it MO... very nice...
But I have to say, I was not raped by LCM. But I was "stalked" and on his hit list. After a few very uncomfortable situations with him, I went to someone who could make sure I wasn't anywhere near him anymore. Yeah, I was afraid of him.
And LCM wasn't the only married man who approached me either. I don't want to get into details here. If anybody thinks they really need to know my story, please pm me.
It took me years to figure out, that IT WASN'T ME. There was a subculture in TWI where married "leaders" thought they were free to help themselves to young, single women.
Just as you found out, too, Johnny, some women thought single men were up for grabs (no pun intended) as well.
Sorry for the total derail. But you are right Johnny, when you say that no one else knows the depth of the pain that certain acts of betrayal caused. And that was my only point, really. I just didn't make it very well.
So...Am I supposed to forgive lcm for what he did to OTHER people?...
...What lcm did to me personally, is small potatoes compared to what he did to others...I've had MANY people do far worse things to me personally than what lcm did to me, therefore I have no problem forgiving him for what he did to me...but forgiving him for what he did to others?...I think it's almost a form of egotism for me to assume the right to forgive him for what he did to other people...that's God's place (and the people to whom he did it to)...not mine.
Conditional forgiveness is not forgiveness, just as a pardon is not an acquittal.
Forgiveness is release, not absolution. It does not revoke the past, and not the truth. Only the "guilt." Guilt is the outcome of choice. To forgive is to believe that the perpetrator did not choose.
To forgive is to redefine a human event as inevitable, to say in effect, "It was fate."
With that perspective, Vic Wierwille was a bastard, but he did not choose to be. He was compelled, caused by some prior cause, in turn by some prior cause, that of some prior, and some prior..., just as we were compelled to follow, or in some cases, to become his victims. He was a bastard, but a congenital bastard. He couldn't help it. Like a dog with rabies. You don't hate it. You don't blame it. You deal with it.
--
Evil's power is a kind of "anti-force," like a vacuum in nature, around which a vortex will form. Tornados, hurricanes, whirlpools... It is not just darkness but an abyss in the midst of the light, a "black hole" which cannot be seen except by its powerful influence. We don't burden ourselves with figuring out the causes. Suffice it to say, "$*@! happens." Vic Wierwille was the $*@!. He happened. But most importantly, he couldn't help it.
To forgive is to see the perpetrator as the effect of an irresistable or unforseeable force, and incapable of resistance. There is no harm in understanding that person may or may not continue to be the effect of those forces. Caution remains, while blame is irrelevant.
The time it takes to forgive others is the time it takes to forgive (release) ourselves for our perceived part, even if we don't know what we did, and even if we did nothing. We too were the effect of external forces, drawn in and trapped, but it is our nature to believe, at some level, that we are partly responsible.
Without releasing our own sense of guilt first, forgiving the perpetrator leaves just ourselves to blame. We won't permit that. But just as Vic Wierwille "happened," so did we happen. And we must therefore forgive ourselves, release ourselves, for any part we may have played. Our choices were not true choices. We too were compelled. As for Vic Wierwille, anger becomes meaningless. He was the vehicle, not the driver. We will never fully comprehend the driver.
--
So when does responsibility begin, if we and others have always been "compelled" by forces beyond our understanding? Right now. Not a moment ago. Not a moment from now. Now. It will always be so.
So...Am I supposed to forgive lcm for what he did to OTHER people?...
One day while still struggling with what had been done to my children, In turned to a dear friend, also LDS and said,
"I CAN FORGIVE WHAT WAS DONE TO ME, BUT FORGIVING WHAT HAPPENED TO MY CHILDREN IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE EVEN THOUGH i KEEP TRYING SO HARD"
She looked at me and said "we are required to forgive others for what they have done to us, you aren't the one who can forgive them for what they did to others, you don't have that right -- that's your children's choice"
The time it takes to forgive others is the time it takes to forgive (release) ourselves for our perceived part, even if we don't know what we did, and even if we did nothing. We too were the effect of external forces, drawn in and trapped, but it is our nature to believe, at some level, that we are partly responsible.
Without releasing our own sense of guilt first, forgiving the perpetrator leaves just ourselves to blame. We won't permit that.
Very well put. Before I can forgive anybody, I have to understand the offense that was committed against me. That's the hard, painful part. Sometimes it's easier to just ignore stuff, and bury it, instead of honestly acknowledging what happened.
It hurts, to realize that one's heart and soul was betrayed by those we looked up to, and respected. And who were supposed to be our examples of "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." The hypocrisy and just plain evil of it all is painful to see in the light of day.
And then to go a step further, and truly forgive someone, isn't just a one-time act, as dooj so eloquently put it. It's a continuous process that hopefully ends in resolution at some point. But when that actually happens........well, it can take a long time.
Forgiveness is not something earned. (I didn't earn the Lord's forgiveness and no one needs to earn mine. )
The price of unforgiveness is too high -- The more difficult the forgiveness, the greater the pay (from the Lord). Hardheartedness is the cost/price (I'm not sure which) of unforgiveness.
You only have the authority to forgive offenses against you -- If someone wronged someone else, I have no concern regarding forgiving. My responsibility would be ensuring that I maintain a kind kind of kindness.
(people sticking their nose in other business has always been a messy situation.)
lcm kicked me out of TWI, for which I am ever thankful.
EXCEPT...there is that one sticky point about being required to ASK before we are forgiven....and in the scriptures we are not asked to forgive our brothewho has sinned against us UNTILL they repent and ask.
I think that there might be a little more to it than what we were taught.
If God requires repentance and asking before he grants it.....maybe that is how it works.
Just a thought....but personally, I feel no compuntion or need to forgive these monsters....any more than I saw Jesus asking the people to forgive the saducees, pharacees, money changers and those who would hurt children..
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ChasUFarley
This is a tough thread...
LCM taught that true FORGIVENESS can not be given unless there has been swift judgement and sentence - until the crime or trespass has been "paid for" appropriately... (forgive me... there's a word I'm looking for here... I'll probably think of it later...) He taught that until then that any "forgiveness" is just superficial. I believe I heard this either at an Advance Class or a Corps Night - perhaps some of you also heard the same teaching.
I believe that what LCM did was criminal. Here was a man who taught others about right vs. wrong, yet he somehow made his actions acceptable in his own mind to justify his repetition of them for decades. He hurt many people and he had help doing it (i.e. R@mon@, RFR, and others named in the A!!en's lawsuit). At the lowest common denominator, he needs to pay for what he has done just to the women and their families he has hurt. He hasn't apologized, come clean, asked for forgiveness - none of it. He didn't even address the issue with the staffers at HQ face-to-face -- they learned about the lawsuit, etc. the same way that everyone else did - via v-i-d-e-o. That alone was just WRONG.
LCM was removed as president long after the news of the lawsuit broke. I believe it was never TWI's intention to remove him, but that it was eventually done because he was seen as a liability. In other words, it was on the advise of his lawyers, I think. It certainly would appear to be that way. He is now working a blue-collar job, living without his wife and children. He brought shame to the ministry and his family. His loss is really nothing compared to the overall damage he inflicted on others. He forced his selfish desires upon women who did not want him - women who were married, engaged - just wanted to say "no". They could not. Period. VPW did the same thing - he was really no better or worse - but that's another thread.
I don't think LCM, per his own teaching, has repaid his victims or families properly. If he had, then why is he still getting pulled into court? A REAL face-to-face encounter with his former prey and their significant others, families, etc, is the LEAST he could do. They should be allowed to confront him. They've been double cheated - once when the incident(s) happened, and again when he basically went "underground" because he never did anything face-to-face unless he absolutely had to. He's been a liar, a coward, and a cheat. He hasn't taken ownership for his actions enough.
LCM doesn't deserve forgiveness. If people forgive him, then that's up to them - call it grace. Call it a generous donation. I've already donated enough to him/TWI... thanks.
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templelady
What I mean when I say I forgive
When I say my prayers at night I have a little section that goes something like this
Heavenly Father, don't hold my enemies sins against them when they stand before you, please make sure they have good food, a warm dry place to live and good clothing
Note what I don't say
I don't say they are absolved from what they did
I don't say I'll ever trust them
I don't say that they should not face the legal penalties, if any, their actions require
I don't say what they did was alright
I don't say that I'm not "displeased" with what they did even today
I ask that when all is said and done, and we all face Heavenly Father- that on the list of the sins imputed to them the ones toward me not be included.
As ye forgive also shall ye be forgiven
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Sunesis
I disagree with Martindale's take on forgiveness. In life, people do terrible things and will never "pay" for it. Many of those wronged will never see "justice." Just as Christ forgave those that killed him, I'm sure the perpertrators never paid for what they did in this life, they just went on about their lives.
To me, forgiveness is not for the other person, they'll probably never know if I've forgiven them or not. Forgiveness is for me, for my benefit.
The Word tells us to walk in light and not in darkness. In my life, I forgive so that I may walk in light, not darkness. When we have anger, rage, something gnawing at us, in some ways we walk in darkness - there's always a cloud hovering in us in the back of our minds. We truly cannot be free to walk as free as we may desire to.
Forgiveness I think, is more for a person's own walk, is more to free the individual wronged, and not the one who did the wrong. Its for my benefit, not necessarily the other person's benefit.
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Nottawayfer
Chas,
FYI, we didn't even see a video of lcm admitting his "one-time sexual affair" or the time he announced he would step down. We heard it all via a-u-d-i-o. It just proves he's even a bigger WOOS!!
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OnionEater
I will forgive him when legal justice is done unto him.
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nandon
ex, you are right.
im sorry i even broght this up... anything i went through is nothing compared to his victims.
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ex10
nandon,
Don't be sorry. My only point in saying that is that some were victimized and traumatized in a very different way than others of us. I do volunteer counseling at my church, and sexual abuse is a very hard issue to resolve. Forgiveness is difficult and can take alot of hard work and time.
Unless you've been there.....well, you know.
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doojable
I am in favor of forgiving a person - any person - regardless of whether or not they ask for it. I see the forgiveness as something that releases me and frees me. If the other person repents and/or asks for forgiveness - well then that's a benefit to them. This is how I get to live out grace and mercy - and extend it to others.
Now that is not to say that I TRUST a person even though I've forgiven them. Trust has to be earned and the more heinious the offense the harder a person has to work back to trust - forgiven or not.
So I forgive but I don't forget - that's God's category he casts the offense as far as the east is form the west. Me, I have to remember the offense: 1so that I don't get fooled again, and 2 because forgiveness can be an ongoing thing.
We always think of forgiveness as a final thing - but I think of it in layers. We might forgive stuff then realize that there's more to it - then we have to work through that forgiveness. It's a process.
Ex10 - To be fair Jonny wasn't saying that women were going around tepmting these scumbags.
He as saying that HE was tempted to give in to that certain someone who tempted HIM.
Breathe, breathe... cleansing breath....now release....
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diazbro
I think that many way leaders want you to forgive them so they can rest easier about things they have done in the past. (e.g. "Whew - I don't have to worry about that guy anymore"). This approach is selfish and doesn't even begin to address the fundamental problems of disprespect.
While I read the bible and even go to church on a semi-regular basis I've changed my view on forgiveness a great deal. I forgive only when I'm ready because if I don't provide forgiveness in a genuine, authentic manner then it is simply a hollow gesture and I'm just going through the motions. Ultimately nothing is accomplished. So in my view its better to arrive at that right place in time to provide the forgivness.
After all, God waited for the birth of JC and his resurrection. Adam and Eve sinned yet God didn't immediately turn around and say "okay no problem. I'll just push the reset button and we'll pretend like it didn't happen". No. Far from it. There was a long
process whereby this forgiveness was provided. I'm sure Adam and Eve deeply wanted to be forgiven but they and many generations following had to endure the consequences of their actions. It was only much,much later that mankind as a race received the forgiveness that earlier generations so desperately wanted.
There is a lesson here somewhere and I think part of its meaning is that you give forgiveness when YOU are ready - NOT when the other person is seeking it or trying to bully you into it. They feel guilty and want to stop feeling that way so they come to you in a false way to get you to clear the debt so to speak. Sorry, I'll do it when I think its the right time. Its not like I'm sitting there imagining revenge scenarios or foaming
with rage - far from it. I get on with my life no matter what. God forgave mankind when WE most needed it and not one moment before - so there is in fact the concept of "when" to forgive someone. This way when you do do it , then its very genuine and authentic.
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outofdafog
Very well said diazbro....
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
nice pic cousin! keep the moxie give me a hinnie!!
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
diazbro
very well said
but i gotta think we don't have as much time to forgive as god does.
and please don't mis understand
i don't blame anybody who doesn't want to
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J0nny Ling0
And Ex10,
I need to be fair to you. But first of all, what Doojable just said about me and my post is true. I definitely was NOT saying that our lovely women were running around tempting the top leaders. I was saying that I was tempted to follow through on that gals' advances. I mean, hey, I'm gettin my pants hemmed and she holds the tape tight up into my inseam for a really long time while grininng at me, and then she flat out grabs IT. And so, being a guy, I was really tempted. But, I was also confuesd over the whole thing, because I was a first year Corps guy, and I just didn't see how this fit with "It Is Written", and this coming from a clergy gal and Corps grad. It threw a wrench into my idealistic thinking...
But, I am also willing to admit, that it certainly was not the same as what you described, even though it was my flesh that was sought after, just the same as with you. For I know that if this gal actually tried to hold me against my will, I would easily have brushed her aside with a laugh and with the greatest of ease, walked on out. Not so easily done by a woman being held by a large jock of a man like LCM. With a woman in that situation, there is obviously going to be way more fear of the rape scene. The truth is, the ratio of men getting raped compared to women is way lopsided. Women are far more often the prey of the male predator, except for when men are in jail I guess. And so, I also have to say that it wasn't all that traumatic to me. If I was locked in a room with LCM as you say (and I was a girl), and he "wanted me"), I guess I'd be scared too, unless I was Lara Croft or, Zena, Warrior Princess! I will say though, and I've said it before, that my wife when she was young and single and in the 7th Corps, LCM tried to "get her" in his hotel room, groped her breasts, caused her great hurt and confusion, but to his shame, she gave him an instant Bible lesson on adultery, the Love Of God, and, the Way Corps Motto of "It Is Written". And he then, shamefacedly, watched her stomp out of the hotel room.
There are things that happened to me publicly that were FAR more humiliating to me than that situation (the one with me, not the one with my wife). I guess I just took exception to what you said because it seems sometimes that many women have thought that being sexually harrassed only happens to women, and I felt like pointing out that "you weren't the only ones". But, I do stand corrected (by my Strange Friend Tom in a private message) that it was worse for you all than it was for me in that situation. Okay? Sorry...
But, but, but!, I still believe that no matter what the hurt, as Sunesis said so well, I do believe that the forgiving of another is primarily for the victim, and not the predator. One time, when in Alaska, a certain Limb Coordinator, sprang a surprise "reproof meeting" on me, where I was the focus of the reproof. All of the people in my Twig Area (five Twigs) were there. He accused me of all kinds of evil deeds which simply were not true at all. My wife was even sucked into it, and I felt as if the whole world had vomited upon me. He did it with arrogance and a pridefull spirit, and he was wrong. Those details are not worth repeating, but I will tell you, this was far worse to me than some single gal grabbing my tallywhacker! Hell, I'd rather have that happen to me any day of the week compared to that! At any rate, I was so humiliated, I went and took a job as a mate on a commercial halibut boat, and said to my wife; "See ya, I go a fishin!" And I was gone for a week straight with out a word from me. And oh, did we kill fish! One of 'em was a 280 pounder, and we had to harpoon him to get him into the boat, and then we had to shoot him in the head with a .357 magnum! Way cool! Just what Dr. Jehovah Rapha (the lord our physician) ordered! It wasn't quite as grand as when Peter obeyed Jesus and almost sunk his boat with fish, but we did well! And when we got back into port at Homer, Alaska, we tore it up, got drunk, and I had a really good time! Went to "Alices Champagne Palace" as a matter of fact. Fine place. Jerry Jeff Walker played there, but sadly, the week before I got there. Can't have it all I spose. And also during that time, I was purposefully skipping the meeting with the LC where they discussed "this new "Passing Of A Patriarch business."
And so look EX10, like you said, one person's hurt may not be the same as another's, but, who is to judge how one thing will hurt another more than someone else? Just maybe having my whole existance called into question by some Reverend whom my friends and wife looked at as "an authority" is also very very bad and very very hurtful. Once my wife saw through it all, she took a long time to forgive him as well. And, it was easier for her to forgive LCM for his "attempt at boffing her" than it was for her to forgive the LC for slandering me publicly and causing her to doubt me...
But just the same, even though he, the LC never apologized to me or acknowledged that he was wrong, I still forgave him. Like I said before, for me, personally, forgiving those who wronged me is a "pressure relief valve" (PRV). I am a marine engineer, and this analogy fits for me just perfectly. When the pressure in a boiler gets beyond the capacity that that particular boiler is designed to hold, that PRV simply pops, blows the excess steam into the air, and the machinery is saved from an internal explosion. And not only is it logical by way of lots of analogies, Jesus said to do it, and I believe in Jesus...
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nandon
Ex,
I posted this not even thinking about what OTHERS went through.
And when you wrote what you wrote it hit me hard. Even though I was hurt, OTHERS were hurt even worse.
To all those that were victimized I'm sorry I even broght this topic up. I hope it didn't frustrate you to see some dude whining (selfishly) about how he wanted to be able to forgive the guy that preyed on them.
Much respect to the victims. I wish i could do something to help justice be served, or help them in recovery.
I need to be less selfish. Focus on the positives in my life, and look for ways to help others.
thanks ex, from what i see of you on here, you are a good person. Helping others the way you do at your church. An "Inspiration" you are.
Thanks to all those who replyed to this topic. Helped me see different perspectives.
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templelady
I understand where ex10 is coming from--the amount of forgiveness I am willing to grant as stated above was a long time coming--Years and years--and there are still days when I t all comes rushing back--and well I start over again,
Each one of us has certain things that are more hurtful than they are to other people-- each one of us needs their own time frame to come to the point of forgiveness--and I would say that ex10 working as she does with other victims, has put her anger, hurt, rage to excellent use.
Ultimately it is between you and the person in the mirror and no one should feel lessened because they are running their train on a different timetable.
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Tom Strange
That's a very nice way to put it MO... very nice...
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ex10
Oh geeze you all, thank you for the kind words.
But I have to say, I was not raped by LCM. But I was "stalked" and on his hit list. After a few very uncomfortable situations with him, I went to someone who could make sure I wasn't anywhere near him anymore. Yeah, I was afraid of him.
And LCM wasn't the only married man who approached me either. I don't want to get into details here. If anybody thinks they really need to know my story, please pm me.
It took me years to figure out, that IT WASN'T ME. There was a subculture in TWI where married "leaders" thought they were free to help themselves to young, single women.
Just as you found out, too, Johnny, some women thought single men were up for grabs (no pun intended) as well.
Sorry for the total derail. But you are right Johnny, when you say that no one else knows the depth of the pain that certain acts of betrayal caused. And that was my only point, really. I just didn't make it very well.
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J0nny Ling0
((((Ex10))))
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GrouchoMarxJr
So...Am I supposed to forgive lcm for what he did to OTHER people?...
...What lcm did to me personally, is small potatoes compared to what he did to others...I've had MANY people do far worse things to me personally than what lcm did to me, therefore I have no problem forgiving him for what he did to me...but forgiving him for what he did to others?...I think it's almost a form of egotism for me to assume the right to forgive him for what he did to other people...that's God's place (and the people to whom he did it to)...not mine.
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satori001
Conditional forgiveness is not forgiveness, just as a pardon is not an acquittal.
Forgiveness is release, not absolution. It does not revoke the past, and not the truth. Only the "guilt." Guilt is the outcome of choice. To forgive is to believe that the perpetrator did not choose.
To forgive is to redefine a human event as inevitable, to say in effect, "It was fate."
With that perspective, Vic Wierwille was a bastard, but he did not choose to be. He was compelled, caused by some prior cause, in turn by some prior cause, that of some prior, and some prior..., just as we were compelled to follow, or in some cases, to become his victims. He was a bastard, but a congenital bastard. He couldn't help it. Like a dog with rabies. You don't hate it. You don't blame it. You deal with it.
--
Evil's power is a kind of "anti-force," like a vacuum in nature, around which a vortex will form. Tornados, hurricanes, whirlpools... It is not just darkness but an abyss in the midst of the light, a "black hole" which cannot be seen except by its powerful influence. We don't burden ourselves with figuring out the causes. Suffice it to say, "$*@! happens." Vic Wierwille was the $*@!. He happened. But most importantly, he couldn't help it.
To forgive is to see the perpetrator as the effect of an irresistable or unforseeable force, and incapable of resistance. There is no harm in understanding that person may or may not continue to be the effect of those forces. Caution remains, while blame is irrelevant.
The time it takes to forgive others is the time it takes to forgive (release) ourselves for our perceived part, even if we don't know what we did, and even if we did nothing. We too were the effect of external forces, drawn in and trapped, but it is our nature to believe, at some level, that we are partly responsible.
Without releasing our own sense of guilt first, forgiving the perpetrator leaves just ourselves to blame. We won't permit that. But just as Vic Wierwille "happened," so did we happen. And we must therefore forgive ourselves, release ourselves, for any part we may have played. Our choices were not true choices. We too were compelled. As for Vic Wierwille, anger becomes meaningless. He was the vehicle, not the driver. We will never fully comprehend the driver.
--
So when does responsibility begin, if we and others have always been "compelled" by forces beyond our understanding? Right now. Not a moment ago. Not a moment from now. Now. It will always be so.
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templelady
One day while still struggling with what had been done to my children, In turned to a dear friend, also LDS and said,
"I CAN FORGIVE WHAT WAS DONE TO ME, BUT FORGIVING WHAT HAPPENED TO MY CHILDREN IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE EVEN THOUGH i KEEP TRYING SO HARD"
She looked at me and said "we are required to forgive others for what they have done to us, you aren't the one who can forgive them for what they did to others, you don't have that right -- that's your children's choice"
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ex10
Satori, you said:
Very well put. Before I can forgive anybody, I have to understand the offense that was committed against me. That's the hard, painful part. Sometimes it's easier to just ignore stuff, and bury it, instead of honestly acknowledging what happened.
It hurts, to realize that one's heart and soul was betrayed by those we looked up to, and respected. And who were supposed to be our examples of "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." The hypocrisy and just plain evil of it all is painful to see in the light of day.
And then to go a step further, and truly forgive someone, isn't just a one-time act, as dooj so eloquently put it. It's a continuous process that hopefully ends in resolution at some point. But when that actually happens........well, it can take a long time.
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Kit Sober
My 2 cents:
Forgiveness is not something earned. (I didn't earn the Lord's forgiveness and no one needs to earn mine. )
The price of unforgiveness is too high -- The more difficult the forgiveness, the greater the pay (from the Lord). Hardheartedness is the cost/price (I'm not sure which) of unforgiveness.
You only have the authority to forgive offenses against you -- If someone wronged someone else, I have no concern regarding forgiving. My responsibility would be ensuring that I maintain a kind kind of kindness.
(people sticking their nose in other business has always been a messy situation.)
lcm kicked me out of TWI, for which I am ever thankful.
Hopefully,
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rascal
EXCEPT...there is that one sticky point about being required to ASK before we are forgiven....and in the scriptures we are not asked to forgive our brothewho has sinned against us UNTILL they repent and ask.
I think that there might be a little more to it than what we were taught.
If God requires repentance and asking before he grants it.....maybe that is how it works.
Just a thought....but personally, I feel no compuntion or need to forgive these monsters....any more than I saw Jesus asking the people to forgive the saducees, pharacees, money changers and those who would hurt children..
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