What I believe is that God wants us to walk with Him, and encourages us to do our best via His own Love thru Christ, His Word, the gift of holy spirit, and each other.
I do not believe that God brings sickness, pain and death to accomplish His goals or bring us closer to Him.
What I believe is that God wants us to walk with Him, and encourages us to do our best via His own Love thru Christ, His Word, the gift of holy spirit, and each other.
I do not believe that God brings sickness, pain and death to accomplish His goals or bring us closer to Him.
We've established this already, Oldies.
So what about the points I addressed above? (In this post)
Or if you don't care to address the points I made, you could address how and where the author of the article cited in the original post are wrong.
I'm not trying to dog you, Oldies, I'm really not. But I'd at least like you (or for that matter anybody) to provide a scripture-based refutation of either what the author wrote or the points I made (my position is not the same as the author's position, by the way). You say you don't believe something. Show where the author is wrong, then. Please.
The thread has now been moved down to "Doctrinal", so it is appropriate to discuss that stuff here.
When I first saw this it absolutely repulsed me. I took it as if I should welcome the cancer...keep track of it...know where it is and don't let any of it escape while the other part of me said "icky" cancer...get rid of it, squash it like a roach.(gross I know....but so is cancer gross and repugnant to my mind)
After I got rid of the word association's, I did begin to see what he meant, and I think I agree with LG that it's a way to use the affliction..perhaps a little like the Phoenix who rose from the ashes.
Since these were reportedly written on the eve of his surgery, I wonder how much was the essence of the man and how much was from other sources.
You suggested chapter and verse at least in kind...and I regretfully admit I've forgotten where so many of these things are in Scripture but I will take issue with #1
1. You will waste your cancer if you do not believe it is designed for you by God.
It will not do to say that God only uses our cancer but does not design it. What God permits, he permits for a reason. And that reason is his design. If God foresees molecular developments becoming cancer, he can stop it or not. If he does not, he has a purpose. Since he is infinitely wise, it is right to call this purpose a design. Satan is real and causes many pleasures and pains. But he is not ultimate. So when he strikes Job with boils (Job 2:7), Job attributes it ultimately to God (2:10) and the inspired writer agrees: "They . . . comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (Job 42:11). If you don't believe your cancer is designed for you by God, you will waste it.
It cannot be designed for him by God. How many places in Scripture have we read that God desires that we should be in health? How many things are written for health and healing? Plenty.
The narration of the first few chapters of Genesis describe God putting order into the universe (our natural realm) and this order is referred to various times in Scripture, particularly in the Psalms. I see a lot of this as Natural Laws which by nature, can't be broken. I see these as physical laws if not ordained of God, at lest upheld by Him.
In addition, we all have free will...what did the man eat..did he smoke? did he work around dangerous chemicals? and a number of other possible sources for these "molecular developments". Once set in motion God cannot go back on them and hence, can't stop them. It is, however NOT God's design for somebody to have cancer. That would be the same as making God a source of evil, and that is not so!
Furthermore we know that it was not God who smote Job, it was Satan.
Actually, I think, if you could get me to believe that my cancer was prepared especially for me, and given to me specifically by God, I think I would have no other choice than to lay down and die. It would be as much as "Thus saith the Lord."
First, I do not hold exactly the same beliefs as this guy.
Second, the first time I saw this e-mail was many, many months ago. It initially took me aback, as well. I read it and re-read it.
On the first paragraph, I would point out one sentence that I think that many folks are missing or not paying proper attention to: If God foresees molecular developments becoming cancer, he can stop it or not.
That is absolutely a true statement.
The next sentence is less true, but could still be, in some cases: If he does not, he has a purpose. I do not necessarily subscribe to this sentence, because it implies that if he does not, it absolutely is to His purpose. It could be, could be, that there is some greater good that could happen as a consequence of Him not stopping it. If this sentence I quoted was necessarily true, then there is no sense in this guy getting an operation and, in fact, it would be an affirmation that the practice of medicine is evil, because if God did not affirmatively prevent a person from falling ill, according to this sentence, it would be God's purpose in one getting sick. And the attempt to cure the illness would be a vain struggle against God's will. Obviously this is not the case.
So it's obvious that I don't agree fully with what this guy is saying. But my disagreement is not so violent as others. I think the fundamental, overall, thrust of the message is a useful one. That's why I don't join in the lynching of this guy.
I have a fundamental belief that God will deliver us. But I also believe that this deliverance may come either from what is causing our suffering or through what is causing our suffering. Remember that deliverance may not mean the same thing in God's perspective as it does in our perspective. I recall St. Paul's statement about his thorn in the flesh (2 Cor 12:6-11). Paul asked for it to be taken away. God said No. Why? (Look it up and tell me, if I can suggest) -- what specifically that thorn was is not relevant (so please, nobody, drag out the piffle lesson on the thorn in the flesh -- the fact is that God said NO...and He said NO for a reason.
There are many, many tremendous examples of saints that are examples to us...many of those examples dealt with suffering, martyrdom, disease, etc. They learned to bear their crosses with patience. And I think, as LG alluded to earlier, with patience. They stayed humble and were utterly dependent on God. Not just saints listed in the Bible, those listed in the Catholic canon, but saints we encounter in everyday life.
Contrast that to TWI, particularly in later years. People were berated, condemned and often excommunicated when they had crosses to bear, particularly illnesses. Man was exalted above other men. Contrast that with the example given us by the saints, including the apostles. The contrast between TWI and Christianity couldn't be clearer.
This attitude of praising God for cancer sound similar to the "prison to praise" of Merlin Carothers -- "Prison to Praise" was in the early twi bookstores, but was dropped along with the Holy Spirit from that place.
The Praise God philosophy is not a "I'm thankful I'm sick. My best friend is an alcoholic..." but developing and holding fast to the mindset that God has things in control. This mindset sets a "home" in our heart for the trusting of the Lord to grow.
Joni Tada, the girl who was crippled into a paraplegic in a swimming accident at the height of her youth. Joni has spent over 30 years in a wheelchair, has gone through the phases of hopeless despair, praying for deliverance, and now she says she is thankful -- knowing that she has reached far more hearts with the love of Christ and the inspiration of her life to so many who would be on the brink of despair without her example.
Also including she has a "WOW -- wheelchairs for the World program that donates used wheelchairs to people who would not have any otherwise.
NOTE: Regarding "...it's the stones in the brook that make it sing...." vpw did not coin this. just as his research was stolen, so were his one liners (many from Vincent Peal and others) -- and unfortunately the bad taste left by the twi experience has tainted those one liners as well as the research -- which often were originally given by the Holy Spirit to someone who was walking with Him.
I never yet have had cancer. But my sister did, and it truly is life-changing event. After it hits, you can never rest again, I think, unless you can rest and trust in the Lord. And this issue is what the "using cancer" is addressing. (I do have some personal-heart-torture issues, and these are only satisfied in the trusting-the-Lord humility.
Well..I guess we can be a Trophimus..left behind feeling sick, or we can be one of the many healed in Jesus' name. I think I know which one I'd rather be.My wife ministered to my son when he was a little boy and in the middle of a 'chronic asthma' attack.He recovered never to get asthma again. I was personally present when an 8 year old girl in a coma was ministered to and in 20 minutes she was sitting up, healed. These are more frequent than some of you seem to realise.
With what I have seen, I cannot turn back.... DAMMITT !!!!
I think Pastor Piper picked a peck of pickled scripture.
I think many of us have been there for the miracles upon miracles of healing of high-faith times, but it is callous and cruel to believe that those who don't get "delivered" (In the way we think they should) are in sin of unbelief somehow.
Such thinking ridicules the persecuted church -- those being tortured for Christ far beyond what we could even imagine -- and also dear precious saints who do suffer in this earthly body and look forward to the redemption of their flesh if not in this life in that which is to come. (Jim Martin also has been enduring some of this insensitivity from his ex-way Yahoo group in recent days.)
I am going through a bitter skin rash situation (on my face where everyone can see -- and it's really ugly), and I got the old "you're not believing" routine (it just comes so natural to any ex-twi person), but the doctor said my problem was that the cream I was using to "heal" it was actually spreading it, and she gave me 4 horse pills, told me to take 2 and then 2 12 hours later, and my skin feels like it is on the way to healing -- and it didn't have anything to do with my unbelief. And the help came with some merciful kindness, some physical instruction, and some medicine to help me along.
Maybe if vpw hadn't set such bitter standards against people who were sick, he might have had more merciful and spiritual a life style.
Sorry Kit, I hope you didn't think I was implying that sickness and/ or lack of healing has everything to do with lack of believing/ sin. Our corruptible bodies are just not built for the longhaul, all I have stated is ( some) of the healings I have seen through direct ministering.
I also have witnessed a number of healings through medicines and alternative medicines. Jeff Rath has an excellent site on this type of thing. Bless ya.
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oldiesman
What I believe is that God wants us to walk with Him, and encourages us to do our best via His own Love thru Christ, His Word, the gift of holy spirit, and each other.
I do not believe that God brings sickness, pain and death to accomplish His goals or bring us closer to Him.
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markomalley
We've established this already, Oldies.
So what about the points I addressed above? (In this post)
Or if you don't care to address the points I made, you could address how and where the author of the article cited in the original post are wrong.
I'm not trying to dog you, Oldies, I'm really not. But I'd at least like you (or for that matter anybody) to provide a scripture-based refutation of either what the author wrote or the points I made (my position is not the same as the author's position, by the way). You say you don't believe something. Show where the author is wrong, then. Please.
The thread has now been moved down to "Doctrinal", so it is appropriate to discuss that stuff here.
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krys
When I first saw this it absolutely repulsed me. I took it as if I should welcome the cancer...keep track of it...know where it is and don't let any of it escape while the other part of me said "icky" cancer...get rid of it, squash it like a roach.(gross I know....but so is cancer gross and repugnant to my mind)
After I got rid of the word association's, I did begin to see what he meant, and I think I agree with LG that it's a way to use the affliction..perhaps a little like the Phoenix who rose from the ashes.
Since these were reportedly written on the eve of his surgery, I wonder how much was the essence of the man and how much was from other sources.
You suggested chapter and verse at least in kind...and I regretfully admit I've forgotten where so many of these things are in Scripture but I will take issue with #1
It cannot be designed for him by God. How many places in Scripture have we read that God desires that we should be in health? How many things are written for health and healing? Plenty.
The narration of the first few chapters of Genesis describe God putting order into the universe (our natural realm) and this order is referred to various times in Scripture, particularly in the Psalms. I see a lot of this as Natural Laws which by nature, can't be broken. I see these as physical laws if not ordained of God, at lest upheld by Him.
In addition, we all have free will...what did the man eat..did he smoke? did he work around dangerous chemicals? and a number of other possible sources for these "molecular developments". Once set in motion God cannot go back on them and hence, can't stop them. It is, however NOT God's design for somebody to have cancer. That would be the same as making God a source of evil, and that is not so!
Furthermore we know that it was not God who smote Job, it was Satan.
Actually, I think, if you could get me to believe that my cancer was prepared especially for me, and given to me specifically by God, I think I would have no other choice than to lay down and die. It would be as much as "Thus saith the Lord."
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markomalley
Krys,
First, I do not hold exactly the same beliefs as this guy.
Second, the first time I saw this e-mail was many, many months ago. It initially took me aback, as well. I read it and re-read it.
On the first paragraph, I would point out one sentence that I think that many folks are missing or not paying proper attention to: If God foresees molecular developments becoming cancer, he can stop it or not.
That is absolutely a true statement.
The next sentence is less true, but could still be, in some cases: If he does not, he has a purpose. I do not necessarily subscribe to this sentence, because it implies that if he does not, it absolutely is to His purpose. It could be, could be, that there is some greater good that could happen as a consequence of Him not stopping it. If this sentence I quoted was necessarily true, then there is no sense in this guy getting an operation and, in fact, it would be an affirmation that the practice of medicine is evil, because if God did not affirmatively prevent a person from falling ill, according to this sentence, it would be God's purpose in one getting sick. And the attempt to cure the illness would be a vain struggle against God's will. Obviously this is not the case.
So it's obvious that I don't agree fully with what this guy is saying. But my disagreement is not so violent as others. I think the fundamental, overall, thrust of the message is a useful one. That's why I don't join in the lynching of this guy.
I have a fundamental belief that God will deliver us. But I also believe that this deliverance may come either from what is causing our suffering or through what is causing our suffering. Remember that deliverance may not mean the same thing in God's perspective as it does in our perspective. I recall St. Paul's statement about his thorn in the flesh (2 Cor 12:6-11). Paul asked for it to be taken away. God said No. Why? (Look it up and tell me, if I can suggest) -- what specifically that thorn was is not relevant (so please, nobody, drag out the piffle lesson on the thorn in the flesh -- the fact is that God said NO...and He said NO for a reason.
There are many, many tremendous examples of saints that are examples to us...many of those examples dealt with suffering, martyrdom, disease, etc. They learned to bear their crosses with patience. And I think, as LG alluded to earlier, with patience. They stayed humble and were utterly dependent on God. Not just saints listed in the Bible, those listed in the Catholic canon, but saints we encounter in everyday life.
Contrast that to TWI, particularly in later years. People were berated, condemned and often excommunicated when they had crosses to bear, particularly illnesses. Man was exalted above other men. Contrast that with the example given us by the saints, including the apostles. The contrast between TWI and Christianity couldn't be clearer.
OK, I'm off my soapbox now...
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Kit Sober
This attitude of praising God for cancer sound similar to the "prison to praise" of Merlin Carothers -- "Prison to Praise" was in the early twi bookstores, but was dropped along with the Holy Spirit from that place.
The Praise God philosophy is not a "I'm thankful I'm sick. My best friend is an alcoholic..." but developing and holding fast to the mindset that God has things in control. This mindset sets a "home" in our heart for the trusting of the Lord to grow.
Joni Tada, the girl who was crippled into a paraplegic in a swimming accident at the height of her youth. Joni has spent over 30 years in a wheelchair, has gone through the phases of hopeless despair, praying for deliverance, and now she says she is thankful -- knowing that she has reached far more hearts with the love of Christ and the inspiration of her life to so many who would be on the brink of despair without her example.
Also including she has a "WOW -- wheelchairs for the World program that donates used wheelchairs to people who would not have any otherwise.
NOTE: Regarding "...it's the stones in the brook that make it sing...." vpw did not coin this. just as his research was stolen, so were his one liners (many from Vincent Peal and others) -- and unfortunately the bad taste left by the twi experience has tainted those one liners as well as the research -- which often were originally given by the Holy Spirit to someone who was walking with Him.
I never yet have had cancer. But my sister did, and it truly is life-changing event. After it hits, you can never rest again, I think, unless you can rest and trust in the Lord. And this issue is what the "using cancer" is addressing. (I do have some personal-heart-torture issues, and these are only satisfied in the trusting-the-Lord humility.
In hope,
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allan w.
Well..I guess we can be a Trophimus..left behind feeling sick, or we can be one of the many healed in Jesus' name. I think I know which one I'd rather be.My wife ministered to my son when he was a little boy and in the middle of a 'chronic asthma' attack.He recovered never to get asthma again. I was personally present when an 8 year old girl in a coma was ministered to and in 20 minutes she was sitting up, healed. These are more frequent than some of you seem to realise.
With what I have seen, I cannot turn back.... DAMMITT !!!!
I think Pastor Piper picked a peck of pickled scripture.
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Kit Sober
I think many of us have been there for the miracles upon miracles of healing of high-faith times, but it is callous and cruel to believe that those who don't get "delivered" (In the way we think they should) are in sin of unbelief somehow.
Such thinking ridicules the persecuted church -- those being tortured for Christ far beyond what we could even imagine -- and also dear precious saints who do suffer in this earthly body and look forward to the redemption of their flesh if not in this life in that which is to come. (Jim Martin also has been enduring some of this insensitivity from his ex-way Yahoo group in recent days.)
I am going through a bitter skin rash situation (on my face where everyone can see -- and it's really ugly), and I got the old "you're not believing" routine (it just comes so natural to any ex-twi person), but the doctor said my problem was that the cream I was using to "heal" it was actually spreading it, and she gave me 4 horse pills, told me to take 2 and then 2 12 hours later, and my skin feels like it is on the way to healing -- and it didn't have anything to do with my unbelief. And the help came with some merciful kindness, some physical instruction, and some medicine to help me along.
Maybe if vpw hadn't set such bitter standards against people who were sick, he might have had more merciful and spiritual a life style.
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allan w.
Sorry Kit, I hope you didn't think I was implying that sickness and/ or lack of healing has everything to do with lack of believing/ sin. Our corruptible bodies are just not built for the longhaul, all I have stated is ( some) of the healings I have seen through direct ministering.
I also have witnessed a number of healings through medicines and alternative medicines. Jeff Rath has an excellent site on this type of thing. Bless ya.
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