I was one of those who was in during many of the corp being let go or "reassigned" and attended STS every Sunday and listened to LCM rant and rave about "cop-outs".
I hadn't been attending regular fellowships for a couple of years and got back into it right when the last class of WAP was running for all grads. Otherwise I would have had to wait several months to take it.
Nonetheless, it was a whole new TWI at that time. Very different. Yet some things in my life had led me to this point of going back in. Maybe I had to know for sure. All I know is this was during some really nasty times leading up to the lawsuits. FEAR kept me there.
So for me, it was actually the present spewth of the ministry. And then we all crossed over into the Promised Land but everything wasn't hunky dory. But when my fellowship coordinators N*te and N*nc* Pill*bur* were asked to leave and then my branch coordinator Ro* How* and his wife were asked to leave, I knew something was very wrong. These people loved us and treated us with the utmost respect. Their commitment to God was amazing......This is when I knew something was wrong. It wasn't long before I was M&A for loving a family member, supposedly more than I loved God. And then I was raked over the TWI coals I am sure..................
Okay this is what I've heard about rfr that is good. This will come to a shocker to most who knew her before. These are not my words but of a friend who works closely with her at hq. ( No, this person isn't romatically involved in any kind of way. I've known this person for years and am very close to their family. I just wanted to rule out the possibilty!!!!)
She is very pleasant, very helpful, and encourages everyone to do their best. She speaks the word with kindness and her doors are always open. She likes for people to write her letters and wants to know their opinions, good things, bad things etc. Hq is an amazing place to live and work at because of the love that flows down from the top. Leadership wants everyone to prosper and grow in everyway.
A different friend told me that a letter was written complaing about how long a sns was and that it needed to be simplified and more to the point. RFR wrote back saying that she could see their point and the next big sns had changed and all the ones after that (atleast the ones I actually listened to)
Someone else told me that shortly after the lcm thing settled down, that hq immediately became softer, more loving, and really tried to make it a place where families would love to be. It became family friendly, letting stay home mommies stay home. They also made it available for people to go to college, loads of spare time, and recently people can have jobs outside of hq. It was encouraged for people to get out and get a life, join a gym, enroll in an art class, go to community events, etc. This person attributed, atleast in part to rfr leadership. (the weekends can be like a zombie village because people are out visiting friends and involved with living, I've been there a few times and witnessed this)
These are comments of people who are currently serving at hq. They aren't leaving for speaking out anytime soon.
I don't get to the computer too often but I really believe you have to ask yourself if The Way International has become a CULT. Whenever any group isolates themselves as "the group", when in reality they are only part of The Body of Christ, then something is radically wrong. I can tell you from still having family members in that they are still being taught (corps) to shun relatives that have left. In addition there is sickness at TWI that should not be, serious stuff for young believers and I attribute it to stress. Again I am talking about Corps. Joe believer may not see what is going on behind the scenes.
So I am going to quote The Word on the subject of LEGALISM:
"Galatians 3:1 Â O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 Â This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Â Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Â Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 Â He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Â Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Â Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 Â And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 Â So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 Â For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 Â But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 Â And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Â Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 Â That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Â Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Â Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 Â And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 Â For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Â Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Â Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Â Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 Â But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 Â But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Â Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 Â But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 Â For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 Â For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 Â There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 Â And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
DJ The legalism is still there, they are not an open door ministry like when Dr. W. was there. If you are not with them they believe you are against them, unlike what Jesus said. They still believe that they have the truth and the truth be told, many have moved on from TWI and are beginning to see GREAT SIGNS, WONDERS & MIRACLES AGAIN AND GREAT HEALINGS.
You will know them by their fruit and they are not having much fruit. I am talking about healings, signs, wonders and miracles. They do not treat their Corps. well, they have menial health care, they really don't have a pension, God is bigger than TWI, DJ, so just a little food for thought.
Okay this is what I've heard about rfr that is good. This will come to a shocker to most who knew her before. These are not my words but of a friend who works closely with her at hq. ( No, this person isn't romatically involved in any kind of way. I've known this person for years and am very close to their family. I just wanted to rule out the possibilty!!!!)
She is very pleasant, very helpful, and encourages everyone to do their best. She speaks the word with kindness and her doors are always open. She likes for people to write her letters and wants to know their opinions, good things, bad things etc. Hq is an amazing place to live and work at because of the love that flows down from the top. Leadership wants everyone to prosper and grow in everyway.
A different friend told me that a letter was written complaing about how long a sns was and that it needed to be simplified and more to the point. RFR wrote back saying that she could see their point and the next big sns had changed and all the ones after that (atleast the ones I actually listened to)
Someone else told me that shortly after the lcm thing settled down, that hq immediately became softer, more loving, and really tried to make it a place where families would love to be. It became family friendly, letting stay home mommies stay home. They also made it available for people to go to college, loads of spare time, and recently people can have jobs outside of hq. It was encouraged for people to get out and get a life, join a gym, enroll in an art class, go to community events, etc. This person attributed, atleast in part to rfr leadership. (the weekends can be like a zombie village because people are out visiting friends and involved with living, I've been there a few times and witnessed this)
These are comments of people who are currently serving at hq. They aren't leaving for speaking out anytime soon.
djs,
The most telling part of these comments.......people who are currently serving at hq.
For me, there are two sides of wayworld......1) hq and gunnison staff and 2) the field.
For the staff.....IT IS THEIR DUTY (and job) to serve pleasantly. In the corporate world, the customer is always right. No biggy there. But.......do the staff go witnessing, spend their weekends stringing chairs, setting up for classes, making phone calls and following up on people>>?????
Staffers live a corporate side of "in the know." Sure they might usher on sunday or something......BUT they didn't DRIVE FOUR HOURS and spend money on gas and food, and abs at the sts....and then drive four hours home and get their kids to bed by 10 pm.
Staffers have a vested interest in promoting rosie's image.
And, even if Rosie is "more pleasant these days".........it took the lawyers to advise twi, it took loads of people leaving, it took the settlement of a couple of lawsuits, it took Waydale and Greasespot.......to get twi to CHANGE.
Talk about NOT walking with God.......talk about NOT following common sense........talk about NOT having any integrity........talk about NOT even at the standards of the corporate world...!!!!!
Okay this is what I've heard about rfr that is good. This will come to a shocker to most who knew her before.
*reads down*
"Shocker" is not the word for it.
She is very pleasant, very helpful, and encourages everyone to do their best. She speaks the word with kindness and her doors are always open. She likes for people to write her letters and wants to know their opinions, good things, bad things etc. Hq is an amazing place to live and work at because of the love that flows down from the top. Leadership wants everyone to prosper and grow in everyway.
It's been documented that-
TO YOUR FACE-
rfr can seem very nice.
More likely, this person has seen what's said to their face and
frolicked off happily, and didn't poke behind the curtains.
(Me, I poked behind the curtains, and I didn't see EVERYTHING either.)
As for letters, they're easy to handle.
There's SO many ways that one can "spin-control" when the only
feedback allowed is letters, and it's easy to pretend you're
actually doing something.
As to the "improvements",
frankly, they sound like canned responses,
as in "you keep hearing the same answers, so eventually you repeat
the same answers, whether or not they're actually true."
That one got pulled by the people skeptical enough to LEAVE,
so it's EASY to pull that one with people who just accept whatever
hq says.
A different friend told me that a letter was written complaing about how long a sns was and that it needed to be simplified and more to the point. RFR wrote back saying that she could see their point and the next big sns had changed and all the ones after that (atleast the ones I actually listened to)
Lacking access to
A) the original letter
B) the original response
C) the direct action taken,
I'm more than a little skeptical.
rfr gets ONE letter, and suddenly the Sunday format changes?
Forgive me, but I get skeptical about such claims even when
I TRUST the person of whom it's said.
Someone else told me that shortly after the lcm thing settled down, that hq immediately became softer, more loving, and really tried to make it a place where families would love to be. It became family friendly, letting stay home mommies stay home. They also made it available for people to go to college, loads of spare time, and recently people can have jobs outside of hq. It was encouraged for people to get out and get a life, join a gym, enroll in an art class, go to community events, etc. This person attributed, atleast in part to rfr leadership. (the weekends can be like a zombie village because people are out visiting friends and involved with living, I've been there a few times and witnessed this)
Ok,
we've had lots of reports "from the front" during that timeframe.
This person's account is the opposite of not only the eyewitness
accounts of the time, but also of the quotes from the magazine
and tapes of the time-and THOSE are the easiest things to
manipulate.
hq did not change, especially "immediately".
Frankly,
if you want to credit ANYTHING with radical change at hq,
I'D CREDIT THE GSC.
No, seriously.
It's actually old news that twi, out of good ideas, actually
mines the GSC complaints for new ideas, and quietly makes
changes they heard here first when they feel like it.
That's why people on staff now actually get some kind of
living wage and retirement plan,
whereas-even under rfr-they previously were expected
to just accept whatever hq designated for them.
Ever heard of when rfr threatened to remove cooking
privileges from the staff when one person did something
stupid? We've got it in the documents section....
These are comments of people who are currently serving at hq. They aren't leaving for speaking out anytime soon.
Nor are they what I'd consider "reliable" accounts,
I can tell you from still having family members in that they are still being taught (corps) to shun relatives that have left.
djs- I can second that (as well as family members who never were in)... you probably don't know it but my sister (whom I introduced to TWI) and her husband are Limb Leaders (or whatever they call them these days)... they never visit 'the family' here, even though our entire extended family lives in this area... (none of the others were ever involved in TWI) ...my mother, who is aged, has to go to visit them, halfway across the country if she wants to see them or her grandchildren...
McFaden came on as LC for Illinois while I was on probation. Mr.Spevak was prior. I was told by BC to read and listen to sns tapes and write a letter every month for 6 month's while I was on probation, direction..also, I abs'd 18% because I was taught God would not spit in my direction...I counted the days to meet him.Mr.McFaden moved the hoops on me and said I did the letter's wrong. DO you know how much time and heart I put into those letters..I guess they didnt see enough submission or something.He sent me home to rewrite my letter and put the whole 6 months on another letter. I felt like a kid going to see the principle after detention...do they serve God with any heart..thats the real question? They broke up my fiance and I and was not able to go to my best friends funeral who was a believer....duh.....think on these things..
LorneDoone-
THank you for posting Gal. after leaving I sat thru a 14 hr teaching on Galatians and bibicaly and spiritualy I saw I was betwitched..I actualy teared thru the first four classes..I couldnt believe how TWI lied and messed up the word so bad...think on these things...
Region guys I can remember are T Horrocks, Mullins, Naviello, Matt Stiles, Platiq, B. Greene, Oeding, Prewett's.....
Other leadership include, Stephen Daniel, Bolchalk, Coulter (they recently did the new class Living God's Word as a Family, it has gotten the name of recover our foot class - it talks a lot about marrige and sex being sacred and that it all stays in that marrige - nothing outside of it) Magnelli, Horney, Bill Coyle, John Reynolds......
I know for a fact that Reynolds stepped down for health reasons. I got an e-mail from a friend about artificial sweetners and the health risk that is involved. It had all the symptons and how doc's miss diagnosed the problem. It was fwd all around and ended up getting to him. I got a note from some one who had passed it on, that eventually got passed to me. It seems that his health improved drasticlly from just taking that out of his diet. I gather a really long time had passed and the doc' couldn't find out what was wrong. He is doing much better from what I hear.
Region guys I can remember are T Horrocks, Mullins, Naviello, Matt Stiles, Platiq, B. Greene, Oeding, Prewett's.....
Other leadership include, Stephen Daniel, Bolchalk, Coulter (they recently did the new class Living God's Word as a Family, it has gotten the name of recover our foot class - it talks a lot about marrige and sex being sacred and that it all stays in that marrige - nothing outside of it) Magnelli, Horney, Bill Coyle, John Reynolds......
I know for a fact that Reynolds stepped down for health reasons. I got an e-mail from a friend about artificial sweetners and the health risk that is involved. It had all the symptons and how doc's miss diagnosed the problem. It was fwd all around and ended up getting to him. I got a note from some one who had passed it on, that eventually got passed to me. It seems that his health improved drasticlly from just taking that out of his diet. I gather a really long time had passed and the doc' couldn't find out what was wrong. He is doing much better from what I hear.
From one perspective, these staff men more align with the term Managing the Company Line rather than "corrupted top leadership????"........I mean, who really thinks of Roger M1tler as a top leader in twi? Wasn't he one of the foremen in way builders projects in gunnison, and at hq?
And Delisle.....didn't he follow in the steps of J. Reynxolds, thru the international outreach dept and into the bod level after Reynxolds went over to purchasing? Heck, at this rate......Delisle could be overseeing the housekeeping dept by next year. Top leadership??? Hardly.
Finally......twi has dethroned their MOG status mentality in daily practice. But in ritual.....VPW will always be their Founding Mog......and LCM will be their Honorary Mog. With wierwille, they still hold to his "colateral books" as the Text to measure truth and the snowstorm/gas pump revelation is noteworthy of "true household elitism" .......and martindale's policies of mark/avoid, present truth, sanctifying yourself, devil spirit discernment, no-debt policy, hard-nosed corps training, etc. are still very much in use today.
The company men listed above as simply.....Flavors of the Month.....here today, gone tomorrow. The vanilla is the purity of the scriptures. But wierwille will always be the chocolate flavor. Martindale will be the staple strawberry. And, rivenbark is the butter pecan.
Finally......twi has dethroned their MOG status mentality in daily practice. But in ritual.....VPW will always be their Founding Mog......and LCM will be their Honorary Mog. With wierwille, they still hold to his "colateral books" as the Text to measure truth and the snowstorm/gas pump revelation is noteworthy of "true household elitism" .......and martindale's policies of mark/avoid, present truth, sanctifying yourself, devil spirit discernment, no-debt policy, hard-nosed corps training, etc. are still very much in use today.
I'll give the first part of this statement where they are holding fast to VPW. However, I would like to know how the m&a, present truth, sanctifying yourself, d s discernment, hard nose corps training etc. is still in practice today? I would like for you to give me facts - not mentitioning any names ( as not to hurt people who may have recently gone through it)
I intentionally left out the debt policy in that statement because that is still true today. However, as far as I can see no one is ever asked about their personal business. My bc stated openly that he will not EVER ask that question since it is not his business. He also said that he has been very open with hq about his stance with debt and will not teach it. He still my bc and has been for sometime.
I appreciate your questions and comments. Thanks for giving them.
Dear Tonto,
I've read your post and the questions you asked were really good. I think it deserves it's own post. It will be called "What were you like?"
"She is very pleasant, very helpful, and encourages everyone to do their best. She speaks the word with kindness and her doors are always open. She likes for people to write her letters and wants to know their opinions, good things, bad things etc. Hq is an amazing place to live and work at because of the love that flows down from the top. Leadership wants everyone to prosper and grow in everyway."
I recently watched the Al Pacino movie, The Devil's Advocate. It was eerily like being in TWI----all those nice people who turned out to be imposters!
Hi DJS, I'm going to take your post at face value – and believe you really are mulling things over. I would like to mention a few things that may help you in your decision making process. The main thing is that YOU have to come to the decision YOURSELF. And in order for you to do that you're going to have to evaluate things YOURSELF.
There must be some things bothering you in order for you to feel a decision has to be made. Maybe you're even able to define the issue/issues that make you wonder "Should I stay with TWI?" My concern is that your decision to stay/leave is based on YOUR solid reasons and not your groundless fears or confused thinking. During the crisis after Geer read "Patriarch" when TWI people [myself included] would argue about the status of the ministry, what should be done, questions on doctrine – someone would always say "the integrity of the Word is at stake." Looking back I now re-interpret that to mean "the integrity of TWI is at stake." I have no problem believing the Bible is truth. But I have a big problem with TWI's interpretation and application on some of it.
Sometimes it's helpful to write down the issue/issues, fears and thoughts that concern you – get them out in the open - defined. And it may take awhile. Sometimes I see critical thinking as a hunter tracking down each thought and idea for its origin, logical conclusion, and reasons to support or reject it, implications, etc.
Remember in PFAL VPW recommends setting aside all other reading material for 3 months - to read nothing but the Bible? I'll go a step further in my suggestion to you – get another Bible – one that doesn't have any notes – maybe even try a few different translations. Remember Acts 17:11? VPW refers to it in PFAL. In the New Living Translation it reads, "And all the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to check up on Paul and Silas, to see if they were teaching the truth."
So many times TWI people would throw at me "you're being deceived – remember how Eve questioned God's Word?" Okay – if you're going to accuse me of questioning then let's get it right: I'm questioning TWI's handling of God's Word. In Matthew 15: 1- 9 Some Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus why his disciples disobeyed their traditions. Jesus replied that they nullified the direct commandment of God by their traditions, "they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings" [New Living Translation].
I am not saying TWI is wrong concerning everything in the Bible. I'm not saying I have the correct interpretation and application of everything in the Bible. What I am saying is I see a BIG GAP – a big difference – between the Bible and TWI's doctrine/operations on what I think is important stuff [important to God and Christian living]. Things like Jesus Christ's role in the church, church government, handling scandals and controversies, sin, faith/prayer, research, leadership training, money – well, basically it's things that impact our lives on a daily basis. Don't get me wrong – there's nothing wrong with churches and Christian organizations trying to help people live the Christian life. I think there's something terribly wrong when the people who run things act like they are Christ and rule with an iron hand and have such a rigid framework of thinking in place as to be impervious to the Spirit of God. Of course, that's just my opinion I may be wrong.
Well, wrapping this up I'd like to leave you with another idea. Think about the apostle Paul. He was a fine upstanding Pharisee – he knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. One day he's on the road to Damascus – and the resurrected Jesus Christ witnesses to him. The Bible doesn't mention anything about what went on in his head after his conversion. Interesting though, for a staunch Pharisee whose doctrine had no place for Jesus Christ – we find Christ now has the starring role in his New Testament documents. Perhaps after his conversion Paul did some re-thinking of what he was taught, questioning assumptions he had, etc. Sometimes people think questioning their beliefs or something in the Bible is wrong. Do you think so? Do you see a difference between questioning God in an act of defiance/mistrust and questioning God for a better understanding? Just some things to think about as you open the Bible and work on your decision.
Wow, T-bone you are really deep. Yes, I question a lot of things. What I was taught from a little girl all the way up through my involvement with twi. I guess the main reason I'm gathering info. is due to my all consuming belief that twi was absolutely right on and they did everything in a Godly way. Although, the last several years that ideal mind set has been coming off in layers. It started with the whole debt issue, I didn't understand it and I started questioning why they didn't have a "book" about it. I really wanted to understand it and the more leaders ( and non leaders) I talked to the more I got confused. Everyone had a different opinion that contradicted the other. I looked at it on my own and came to my own conculsions for the first time without help.
I guess I'm mad at myself for being so naive without question. I'm not here to point figures at the leadership because really they have no power over me ( or anyone else) if I don't let them. I have to deal with ME because I chose to put on the blinders, I chose not to listen to the spirit of God in so many cases. God gave me a brain and common sense and because that was not enough, he sent his only son to save me and give me all the power that his Holy Spirit has to offer.
I guess I'm on a discovery to balance out my outlook on the past and from there I will decide if my future will be with twi.
I guess the main reason I'm gathering info. is due to my all consuming belief that twi was absolutely right on and they did everything in a Godly way. Although, the last several years that ideal mind set has been coming off in layers.
I really wanted to understand it and the more leaders ( and non leaders) I talked to the more I got confused.
I guess I'm mad at myself for being so naive without question.
hey djs... welcome to the club! Where do you think most (if not all) of us came from? We've been through the same things.
I guess I'm on a discovery to balance out my outlook on the past and from there I will decide if my future will be with twi.
Good luck on your journey... I'd just suggest (as others have) that you don't 'write-off' other churches/fellowships out there... remember that's one of the things that TWI wants you to do... for the longest time, years after I'd left, I just dismissed them in total because it was so ingrained in my thoughts that they're counterfeits... just remember that it was the same TWI that told you that as well...
Well, DJS we are ALL very deep people - being made in the image of God. And you sound like you have a good attitude towards this search of yours. After I left I did not look back - until recently. I have tried to put a lot of distance between me and TWI - but I joined the Cafe because I'm seeing value in looking back. In Thessalonians Paul said to prove all things - hold fast to that which is good. I've heard someone say Christianity is not a destination you arrive at but a journey . I'm sure glad God is with us on the journey!
Wow, T-bone you are really deep. Yes, I question a lot of things. What I was taught from a little girl all the way up through my involvement with twi. I guess the main reason I'm gathering info. is due to my all consuming belief that twi was absolutely right on and they did everything in a Godly way. Although, the last several years that ideal mind set has been coming off in layers. It started with the whole debt issue, I didn't understand it and I started questioning why they didn't have a "book" about it. I really wanted to understand it and the more leaders ( and non leaders) I talked to the more I got confused. Everyone had a different opinion that contradicted the other. I looked at it on my own and came to my own conculsions for the first time without help.
Woa DJ, God is so blessed with you and your open heart to him. I believe the things you were taught as a little girl was exactly what God wanted for you. You responded in a Godly way and he was able to have you hear what you needed but your heart did not become corrupt. I loved TWI in the early days. My family and I were so blessed. However; with the legalism (telling my husband after 25 yrs that he had to sell our house to get out of debt, what crap, our home has tripled in the last 10 yrs., this was our investment and nest egg & God has multiplied it back), they are so damn nosey it makes one sick. You saw it and are still seeing it under the guise of their being nice now. However TRUST is earned and people do not believe them anymore. They had their chance and blew it. God has moved on. I know just how you feel. When the 1st split came I was so in denial. How could God allow this to happen when we had all been praying for "our ministry" for years. It just could not happen...... I finally saw that it was no longer "our ministry" but that of a few people who wanted to be "heads of The Body of Christ". All chiefs and no Indians. Excuse the pun.
However; God cannot work in concrete hearts and that's what happened. He HAD to move on for His Word to live again & heal all those who were so loyal. I have seen more in the last 6 years than in the last 15. God is alive and working thru those who are faithful in heart to him. It's like the Tower of Babel. When they stopped being true to God and wanted their little sub culture, he had to confound them so they would again move out. Well that's TWI today. They have some really nice people there BUT it's just a religion and that is NOT what God wants. Those that shun family members make me want to puke. They are so full of fear that their leader.... will get on their backs and they don't know how to handle it. God forbid they should say they went home and had a wonderful time. Good Lord even unbelievers treat their families better than that. This is all so ungodly and it's a perversion of The Word.
So he is tugging at your heart and you have nothing to lose because you cannot make a mistake with God. Fear would be the only thing holding you back. TWI will never do what is needed to really heal The Body of Christ that they DESTROYED. They have to take responsibility and they never will so, God has to move elsewhere. DJ do not be afraid. You can heal the sick, raise the dead & teach like crazy with all the LOVE OF GOD in your heart. You do not need them, they have nothing to offer but dead sermons and playing at church.
I hear all the time about how bored people are. They are really disheartened at what has happened and they long for the former fellowship that they know is available. So go do it. You will be amazed how many will be there with you.
An honest question. Do you really believe God is limited to TWI? So let us know when and where we can help you. There are alot of truly loving people out there waiting for the Word, (not religion) and you have the answers.
Give it a go and be patient. Just have fun every day and love God. *%^#* the devil off and be joyful and happy again.
Hugs to you honey, you are the best. None of us will ever be perfect but most here have learned that we are an important part of The Body of Christ and God's will must be first.
So he is tugging at your heart and you have nothing to lose because you cannot make a mistake with God. Fear would be the only thing holding you back. TWI will never do what is needed to really heal The Body of Christ that they DESTROYED. They have to take responsibility and they never will so, God has to move elsewhere. DJ do not be afraid. You can heal the sick, raise the dead & teach like crazy with all the LOVE OF GOD in your heart. You do not need them, they have nothing to offer but dead sermons and playing at church.
I hear all the time about how bored people are. They are really disheartened at what has happened and they long for the former fellowship that they know is available. So go do it. You will be amazed how many will be there with you.
An honest question. Do you really believe God is limited to TWI? So let us know when and where we can help you. There are alot of truly loving people out there waiting for the Word, (not religion) and you have the answers.
Good post, Lorna. :)
Yeah.....the tower of Babel analogy, twi's little subculture is at cross-purposes with the One Body of Christ and the blessings of God follow His true believers.
Life is really good.....far away from twi's mandates and legalism.
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outofdafog
I was one of those who was in during many of the corp being let go or "reassigned" and attended STS every Sunday and listened to LCM rant and rave about "cop-outs".
I hadn't been attending regular fellowships for a couple of years and got back into it right when the last class of WAP was running for all grads. Otherwise I would have had to wait several months to take it.
Nonetheless, it was a whole new TWI at that time. Very different. Yet some things in my life had led me to this point of going back in. Maybe I had to know for sure. All I know is this was during some really nasty times leading up to the lawsuits. FEAR kept me there.
So for me, it was actually the present spewth of the ministry. And then we all crossed over into the Promised Land but everything wasn't hunky dory. But when my fellowship coordinators N*te and N*nc* Pill*bur* were asked to leave and then my branch coordinator Ro* How* and his wife were asked to leave, I knew something was very wrong. These people loved us and treated us with the utmost respect. Their commitment to God was amazing......This is when I knew something was wrong. It wasn't long before I was M&A for loving a family member, supposedly more than I loved God. And then I was raked over the TWI coals I am sure..................
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outofdafog
P.S. after the above 4 were let go, the new HFC and BC were company men............
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waterbuffalo
Tonto,
I love reading everything that you write.
Thanks.
wb
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djs
Okay this is what I've heard about rfr that is good. This will come to a shocker to most who knew her before. These are not my words but of a friend who works closely with her at hq. ( No, this person isn't romatically involved in any kind of way. I've known this person for years and am very close to their family. I just wanted to rule out the possibilty!!!!)
She is very pleasant, very helpful, and encourages everyone to do their best. She speaks the word with kindness and her doors are always open. She likes for people to write her letters and wants to know their opinions, good things, bad things etc. Hq is an amazing place to live and work at because of the love that flows down from the top. Leadership wants everyone to prosper and grow in everyway.
A different friend told me that a letter was written complaing about how long a sns was and that it needed to be simplified and more to the point. RFR wrote back saying that she could see their point and the next big sns had changed and all the ones after that (atleast the ones I actually listened to)
Someone else told me that shortly after the lcm thing settled down, that hq immediately became softer, more loving, and really tried to make it a place where families would love to be. It became family friendly, letting stay home mommies stay home. They also made it available for people to go to college, loads of spare time, and recently people can have jobs outside of hq. It was encouraged for people to get out and get a life, join a gym, enroll in an art class, go to community events, etc. This person attributed, atleast in part to rfr leadership. (the weekends can be like a zombie village because people are out visiting friends and involved with living, I've been there a few times and witnessed this)
These are comments of people who are currently serving at hq. They aren't leaving for speaking out anytime soon.
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WordWolf
Well,
since she's just one corrupt person utilizing a corrupt framework,
and her exit will NOT result in an overhaul,
but rather another excuse to hide the past again,
we'll probably be talking about the same subjects we talk about now,
plus whatever new errors are added.
With no specific reasons given, I'm fairly confident ONE of theold reasons was in place.
Could have been the famous 250-mile attendance.
Could be one state was sending a bunch of people there.
Could be more than one state was sending a bunch of people.
Previously,
when rfr herself was approached about doctrinal AND practical
error at hq,
she responded with "come visit us at hq and look around",
and ignored the obvious followup on how that completely failed
to answer the questions.
I expect that's business as usual.
Got any kind of problem? Come visit this place!
You should forget it once you see things as we orchestrate them here!
I'm skeptical about large numbers of active corps.
Last time we heard, they were HIDING the numbers of corps grads
since they had FIVE graduating.
So, I expect they were manipulating perception again.
Large numbers of people suddenly entering the corps would
have been MAJOR NEWS, and they would have milked
it for all it was worth.
I'd like to also remind you that- despite many claims to the contrary
by twi, rfr and company-
God's Word is NOT the exclusive property of twi,
and many local churches OUTPERFORM twi right now.
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LornaDoone
Hi DJ
I don't get to the computer too often but I really believe you have to ask yourself if The Way International has become a CULT. Whenever any group isolates themselves as "the group", when in reality they are only part of The Body of Christ, then something is radically wrong. I can tell you from still having family members in that they are still being taught (corps) to shun relatives that have left. In addition there is sickness at TWI that should not be, serious stuff for young believers and I attribute it to stress. Again I am talking about Corps. Joe believer may not see what is going on behind the scenes.
So I am going to quote The Word on the subject of LEGALISM:
"Galatians 3:1 Â O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 Â This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Â Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Â Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 Â He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Â Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Â Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 Â And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 Â So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 Â For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 Â But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 Â And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Â Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 Â That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Â Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Â Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 Â And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 Â For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Â Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Â Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Â Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 Â But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 Â But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Â Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 Â But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 Â For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 Â For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 Â There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 Â And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
DJ The legalism is still there, they are not an open door ministry like when Dr. W. was there. If you are not with them they believe you are against them, unlike what Jesus said. They still believe that they have the truth and the truth be told, many have moved on from TWI and are beginning to see GREAT SIGNS, WONDERS & MIRACLES AGAIN AND GREAT HEALINGS.
You will know them by their fruit and they are not having much fruit. I am talking about healings, signs, wonders and miracles. They do not treat their Corps. well, they have menial health care, they really don't have a pension, God is bigger than TWI, DJ, so just a little food for thought.
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skyrider
djs,
The most telling part of these comments.......people who are currently serving at hq.
For me, there are two sides of wayworld......1) hq and gunnison staff and 2) the field.
For the staff.....IT IS THEIR DUTY (and job) to serve pleasantly. In the corporate world, the customer is always right. No biggy there. But.......do the staff go witnessing, spend their weekends stringing chairs, setting up for classes, making phone calls and following up on people>>?????
Staffers live a corporate side of "in the know." Sure they might usher on sunday or something......BUT they didn't DRIVE FOUR HOURS and spend money on gas and food, and abs at the sts....and then drive four hours home and get their kids to bed by 10 pm.
Staffers have a vested interest in promoting rosie's image.
And, even if Rosie is "more pleasant these days".........it took the lawyers to advise twi, it took loads of people leaving, it took the settlement of a couple of lawsuits, it took Waydale and Greasespot.......to get twi to CHANGE.
Talk about NOT walking with God.......talk about NOT following common sense........talk about NOT having any integrity........talk about NOT even at the standards of the corporate world...!!!!!
I am NOT impressed.
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WordWolf
*reads down*
"Shocker" is not the word for it.
It's been documented that-TO YOUR FACE-
rfr can seem very nice.
More likely, this person has seen what's said to their face and
frolicked off happily, and didn't poke behind the curtains.
(Me, I poked behind the curtains, and I didn't see EVERYTHING either.)
As for letters, they're easy to handle.
There's SO many ways that one can "spin-control" when the only
feedback allowed is letters, and it's easy to pretend you're
actually doing something.
As to the "improvements",
frankly, they sound like canned responses,
as in "you keep hearing the same answers, so eventually you repeat
the same answers, whether or not they're actually true."
That one got pulled by the people skeptical enough to LEAVE,
so it's EASY to pull that one with people who just accept whatever
hq says.
Lacking access to
A) the original letter
B) the original response
C) the direct action taken,
I'm more than a little skeptical.
rfr gets ONE letter, and suddenly the Sunday format changes?
Forgive me, but I get skeptical about such claims even when
I TRUST the person of whom it's said.
Ok,we've had lots of reports "from the front" during that timeframe.
This person's account is the opposite of not only the eyewitness
accounts of the time, but also of the quotes from the magazine
and tapes of the time-and THOSE are the easiest things to
manipulate.
hq did not change, especially "immediately".
Frankly,
if you want to credit ANYTHING with radical change at hq,
I'D CREDIT THE GSC.
No, seriously.
It's actually old news that twi, out of good ideas, actually
mines the GSC complaints for new ideas, and quietly makes
changes they heard here first when they feel like it.
That's why people on staff now actually get some kind of
living wage and retirement plan,
whereas-even under rfr-they previously were expected
to just accept whatever hq designated for them.
Ever heard of when rfr threatened to remove cooking
privileges from the staff when one person did something
stupid? We've got it in the documents section....
Nor are they what I'd consider "reliable" accounts,
forgive me for saying so.
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Tom Strange
djs- I can second that (as well as family members who never were in)... you probably don't know it but my sister (whom I introduced to TWI) and her husband are Limb Leaders (or whatever they call them these days)... they never visit 'the family' here, even though our entire extended family lives in this area... (none of the others were ever involved in TWI) ...my mother, who is aged, has to go to visit them, halfway across the country if she wants to see them or her grandchildren...
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likeaneagle
Ricky-
McFaden came on as LC for Illinois while I was on probation. Mr.Spevak was prior. I was told by BC to read and listen to sns tapes and write a letter every month for 6 month's while I was on probation, direction..also, I abs'd 18% because I was taught God would not spit in my direction...I counted the days to meet him.Mr.McFaden moved the hoops on me and said I did the letter's wrong. DO you know how much time and heart I put into those letters..I guess they didnt see enough submission or something.He sent me home to rewrite my letter and put the whole 6 months on another letter. I felt like a kid going to see the principle after detention...do they serve God with any heart..thats the real question? They broke up my fiance and I and was not able to go to my best friends funeral who was a believer....duh.....think on these things..
LorneDoone-
THank you for posting Gal. after leaving I sat thru a 14 hr teaching on Galatians and bibicaly and spiritualy I saw I was betwitched..I actualy teared thru the first four classes..I couldnt believe how TWI lied and messed up the word so bad...think on these things...
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djs
RFR
V. McFadden
R. Mitler
J. Rupp
J. Delisle
Region guys I can remember are T Horrocks, Mullins, Naviello, Matt Stiles, Platiq, B. Greene, Oeding, Prewett's.....
Other leadership include, Stephen Daniel, Bolchalk, Coulter (they recently did the new class Living God's Word as a Family, it has gotten the name of recover our foot class - it talks a lot about marrige and sex being sacred and that it all stays in that marrige - nothing outside of it) Magnelli, Horney, Bill Coyle, John Reynolds......
I know for a fact that Reynolds stepped down for health reasons. I got an e-mail from a friend about artificial sweetners and the health risk that is involved. It had all the symptons and how doc's miss diagnosed the problem. It was fwd all around and ended up getting to him. I got a note from some one who had passed it on, that eventually got passed to me. It seems that his health improved drasticlly from just taking that out of his diet. I gather a really long time had passed and the doc' couldn't find out what was wrong. He is doing much better from what I hear.
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likeaneagle
bumping up xx
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skyrider
From one perspective, these staff men more align with the term Managing the Company Line rather than "corrupted top leadership????"........I mean, who really thinks of Roger M1tler as a top leader in twi? Wasn't he one of the foremen in way builders projects in gunnison, and at hq?
And Delisle.....didn't he follow in the steps of J. Reynxolds, thru the international outreach dept and into the bod level after Reynxolds went over to purchasing? Heck, at this rate......Delisle could be overseeing the housekeeping dept by next year. Top leadership??? Hardly.
Finally......twi has dethroned their MOG status mentality in daily practice. But in ritual.....VPW will always be their Founding Mog......and LCM will be their Honorary Mog. With wierwille, they still hold to his "colateral books" as the Text to measure truth and the snowstorm/gas pump revelation is noteworthy of "true household elitism" .......and martindale's policies of mark/avoid, present truth, sanctifying yourself, devil spirit discernment, no-debt policy, hard-nosed corps training, etc. are still very much in use today.
The company men listed above as simply.....Flavors of the Month.....here today, gone tomorrow. The vanilla is the purity of the scriptures. But wierwille will always be the chocolate flavor. Martindale will be the staple strawberry. And, rivenbark is the butter pecan.
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djs
Hey Skyrider,
Finally......twi has dethroned their MOG status mentality in daily practice. But in ritual.....VPW will always be their Founding Mog......and LCM will be their Honorary Mog. With wierwille, they still hold to his "colateral books" as the Text to measure truth and the snowstorm/gas pump revelation is noteworthy of "true household elitism" .......and martindale's policies of mark/avoid, present truth, sanctifying yourself, devil spirit discernment, no-debt policy, hard-nosed corps training, etc. are still very much in use today.
I'll give the first part of this statement where they are holding fast to VPW. However, I would like to know how the m&a, present truth, sanctifying yourself, d s discernment, hard nose corps training etc. is still in practice today? I would like for you to give me facts - not mentitioning any names ( as not to hurt people who may have recently gone through it)
I intentionally left out the debt policy in that statement because that is still true today. However, as far as I can see no one is ever asked about their personal business. My bc stated openly that he will not EVER ask that question since it is not his business. He also said that he has been very open with hq about his stance with debt and will not teach it. He still my bc and has been for sometime.
I appreciate your questions and comments. Thanks for giving them.
Dear Tonto,
I've read your post and the questions you asked were really good. I think it deserves it's own post. It will be called "What were you like?"
DJS
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Rejoice
I recently watched the Al Pacino movie, The Devil's Advocate. It was eerily like being in TWI----all those nice people who turned out to be imposters!
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T-Bone
Hi DJS, I'm going to take your post at face value – and believe you really are mulling things over. I would like to mention a few things that may help you in your decision making process. The main thing is that YOU have to come to the decision YOURSELF. And in order for you to do that you're going to have to evaluate things YOURSELF.
There must be some things bothering you in order for you to feel a decision has to be made. Maybe you're even able to define the issue/issues that make you wonder "Should I stay with TWI?" My concern is that your decision to stay/leave is based on YOUR solid reasons and not your groundless fears or confused thinking. During the crisis after Geer read "Patriarch" when TWI people [myself included] would argue about the status of the ministry, what should be done, questions on doctrine – someone would always say "the integrity of the Word is at stake." Looking back I now re-interpret that to mean "the integrity of TWI is at stake." I have no problem believing the Bible is truth. But I have a big problem with TWI's interpretation and application on some of it.
Sometimes it's helpful to write down the issue/issues, fears and thoughts that concern you – get them out in the open - defined. And it may take awhile. Sometimes I see critical thinking as a hunter tracking down each thought and idea for its origin, logical conclusion, and reasons to support or reject it, implications, etc.
Remember in PFAL VPW recommends setting aside all other reading material for 3 months - to read nothing but the Bible? I'll go a step further in my suggestion to you – get another Bible – one that doesn't have any notes – maybe even try a few different translations. Remember Acts 17:11? VPW refers to it in PFAL. In the New Living Translation it reads, "And all the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to check up on Paul and Silas, to see if they were teaching the truth."
So many times TWI people would throw at me "you're being deceived – remember how Eve questioned God's Word?" Okay – if you're going to accuse me of questioning then let's get it right: I'm questioning TWI's handling of God's Word. In Matthew 15: 1- 9 Some Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus why his disciples disobeyed their traditions. Jesus replied that they nullified the direct commandment of God by their traditions, "they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings" [New Living Translation].
I am not saying TWI is wrong concerning everything in the Bible. I'm not saying I have the correct interpretation and application of everything in the Bible. What I am saying is I see a BIG GAP – a big difference – between the Bible and TWI's doctrine/operations on what I think is important stuff [important to God and Christian living]. Things like Jesus Christ's role in the church, church government, handling scandals and controversies, sin, faith/prayer, research, leadership training, money – well, basically it's things that impact our lives on a daily basis. Don't get me wrong – there's nothing wrong with churches and Christian organizations trying to help people live the Christian life. I think there's something terribly wrong when the people who run things act like they are Christ and rule with an iron hand and have such a rigid framework of thinking in place as to be impervious to the Spirit of God. Of course, that's just my opinion I may be wrong.
Well, wrapping this up I'd like to leave you with another idea. Think about the apostle Paul. He was a fine upstanding Pharisee – he knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. One day he's on the road to Damascus – and the resurrected Jesus Christ witnesses to him. The Bible doesn't mention anything about what went on in his head after his conversion. Interesting though, for a staunch Pharisee whose doctrine had no place for Jesus Christ – we find Christ now has the starring role in his New Testament documents. Perhaps after his conversion Paul did some re-thinking of what he was taught, questioning assumptions he had, etc. Sometimes people think questioning their beliefs or something in the Bible is wrong. Do you think so? Do you see a difference between questioning God in an act of defiance/mistrust and questioning God for a better understanding? Just some things to think about as you open the Bible and work on your decision.
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Tom Strange
that's a good, thoughtful post there TBone.
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djs
Wow, T-bone you are really deep. Yes, I question a lot of things. What I was taught from a little girl all the way up through my involvement with twi. I guess the main reason I'm gathering info. is due to my all consuming belief that twi was absolutely right on and they did everything in a Godly way. Although, the last several years that ideal mind set has been coming off in layers. It started with the whole debt issue, I didn't understand it and I started questioning why they didn't have a "book" about it. I really wanted to understand it and the more leaders ( and non leaders) I talked to the more I got confused. Everyone had a different opinion that contradicted the other. I looked at it on my own and came to my own conculsions for the first time without help.
I guess I'm mad at myself for being so naive without question. I'm not here to point figures at the leadership because really they have no power over me ( or anyone else) if I don't let them. I have to deal with ME because I chose to put on the blinders, I chose not to listen to the spirit of God in so many cases. God gave me a brain and common sense and because that was not enough, he sent his only son to save me and give me all the power that his Holy Spirit has to offer.
I guess I'm on a discovery to balance out my outlook on the past and from there I will decide if my future will be with twi.
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Tom Strange
Good luck on your journey... I'd just suggest (as others have) that you don't 'write-off' other churches/fellowships out there... remember that's one of the things that TWI wants you to do... for the longest time, years after I'd left, I just dismissed them in total because it was so ingrained in my thoughts that they're counterfeits... just remember that it was the same TWI that told you that as well...
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T-Bone
Well, DJS we are ALL very deep people - being made in the image of God. And you sound like you have a good attitude towards this search of yours. After I left I did not look back - until recently. I have tried to put a lot of distance between me and TWI - but I joined the Cafe because I'm seeing value in looking back. In Thessalonians Paul said to prove all things - hold fast to that which is good. I've heard someone say Christianity is not a destination you arrive at but a journey . I'm sure glad God is with us on the journey!
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skyrider
djs, T-bone and Tom
Lots of good insight here.
It's good, honest discussions like this....that keep me coming back to GS.
I like learning and thought-provoking questions.
And, that verse Acts 17:11......always a good reminder.
Thanks. :)
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LornaDoone
Woa DJ, God is so blessed with you and your open heart to him. I believe the things you were taught as a little girl was exactly what God wanted for you. You responded in a Godly way and he was able to have you hear what you needed but your heart did not become corrupt. I loved TWI in the early days. My family and I were so blessed. However; with the legalism (telling my husband after 25 yrs that he had to sell our house to get out of debt, what crap, our home has tripled in the last 10 yrs., this was our investment and nest egg & God has multiplied it back), they are so damn nosey it makes one sick. You saw it and are still seeing it under the guise of their being nice now. However TRUST is earned and people do not believe them anymore. They had their chance and blew it. God has moved on. I know just how you feel. When the 1st split came I was so in denial. How could God allow this to happen when we had all been praying for "our ministry" for years. It just could not happen...... I finally saw that it was no longer "our ministry" but that of a few people who wanted to be "heads of The Body of Christ". All chiefs and no Indians. Excuse the pun.
However; God cannot work in concrete hearts and that's what happened. He HAD to move on for His Word to live again & heal all those who were so loyal. I have seen more in the last 6 years than in the last 15. God is alive and working thru those who are faithful in heart to him. It's like the Tower of Babel. When they stopped being true to God and wanted their little sub culture, he had to confound them so they would again move out. Well that's TWI today. They have some really nice people there BUT it's just a religion and that is NOT what God wants. Those that shun family members make me want to puke. They are so full of fear that their leader.... will get on their backs and they don't know how to handle it. God forbid they should say they went home and had a wonderful time. Good Lord even unbelievers treat their families better than that. This is all so ungodly and it's a perversion of The Word.
So he is tugging at your heart and you have nothing to lose because you cannot make a mistake with God. Fear would be the only thing holding you back. TWI will never do what is needed to really heal The Body of Christ that they DESTROYED. They have to take responsibility and they never will so, God has to move elsewhere. DJ do not be afraid. You can heal the sick, raise the dead & teach like crazy with all the LOVE OF GOD in your heart. You do not need them, they have nothing to offer but dead sermons and playing at church.
I hear all the time about how bored people are. They are really disheartened at what has happened and they long for the former fellowship that they know is available. So go do it. You will be amazed how many will be there with you.
An honest question. Do you really believe God is limited to TWI? So let us know when and where we can help you. There are alot of truly loving people out there waiting for the Word, (not religion) and you have the answers.
Hugs to you honey, you are the best. None of us will ever be perfect but most here have learned that we are an important part of The Body of Christ and God's will must be first.
:)
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LornaDoone
Sorry for
spouting off!
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skyrider
Good post, Lorna. :)
Yeah.....the tower of Babel analogy, twi's little subculture is at cross-purposes with the One Body of Christ and the blessings of God follow His true believers.
Life is really good.....far away from twi's mandates and legalism.
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