Okay, I just have to say this and get it off my chest. Here goes. Maybe it's me, but almost everyone, extwi person, that I know or GET to KNOW, who says they have a ministry now--even if they say they have different doctrine or even partially different doctrine--they all still ACT the same arrogant twi way.
I've even given money and really supported several of these "ministries" only to find out that the ones at the top really aren't any different than they were in twi. They all, when you get right down to it, really believe that they have a special connection to God and are just a little bit better than their flock.
Has anyone else run across this? Is this common throughout Christianity, also, or is it just mainly extwi? Or, is it just me?
I have seen this multiple times with ministries that were identified with a single person (unless, of course, that single person is Christ)...and that applies to Protestant, Catholic, cult, or whatever. It is a very great temptation if that ministry is associated with a single mortal person, that the ministry will develop into a cult of personality. And when that cult of personality happens, arrogance is not too far behind. Not all...but I've seen it too many times to discount it.
I have definitely seen this in other ex-way ministries, cults, and some christian churches. Usually the christian church situation is because people put the pastor on a pedestal. The church I fell in love with taught this about the pastor:
"The church leaders are aware of their own weaknesses and need to grow and are open about their hurt, pain, failings, and humanity. Instead of "having it all together" and being insulated from confrontation and change, they are in a process of healing and opening up to their own safe people for support and accountability."
This was NEVER seen in any twig, fellowship, or offshoot I ever attended. It was alway about Dr. Wierwille or whoever else and presenting them in a perfect way.
I too have seen this in most of the offshoots and splinter groups. Sometimes it’s very well masked by a “nice guy” persona, but it comes out when the “nice guys” are opposed on what they consider important.
This elitism is rampant in all religions, as well as in academia and industry. It’s part of the fallen human condition to try and “lord it” over others. Slavery is the ultimate fulfillment of this flaw.
It was the striking LACK of this elitism that got my attention in 1971 when I first encountered the ministry. Back then just EVERYONE was benevolently “suspect” of having some kind of gift ministry or special talent to contribute. At that time there were no Corps leadership on the field. But gradually, with each graduating wave of Corps, the elitism slowly took hold.
It was very difficult to pinpoint this as it was happening, but it started bugging me in the early 80’s. I called it “Mystery Busting” because this elitism caused great blindness to God’s great secret that we are ALL members of the same body. I was correctly identifying the symptom of a major disease that hit the ministry, but I didn’t know the cause or the cure, since that same root cause had affected me too.
By the mid 80’s the Mystery was fully busted and elitism was in full swing as it remains today distributed into nearly all the splinter groups.
The I took home the fact I can not change anyone but me, and I began to see me differently .
I got rid of the shame some of the past has instilled in me .
a sinner for some means your not good enough .. and it stuck, within me like a shame base church would teach.
Now when I meet peopel IM convinced Im as good as they are , IM just convinced.
I have no shame in my life. do I make mistakes?
sure but God says everyone does and has and will.
Everyone.
so since IM the only one I can be I look at myself and I like me!
so I assume everyone eles must as well.. and if they do not I ask them why what is the issue.
and then I confront the issue, and hold respect for me and the other person and work out the differnces of the problem.
I do not engage in battles of the flesh because I really believe God loves each of us .
Academia or knowledge is a frustrating thing , many in Spirit and Truth such as Mark and John and JOHN really do have a lot of bibcal answers.
they have spent a life time learning what this is or isnt according to the bible, they are confident and really should be .
Sometimes people with less confidence feel "put down" or less than when talking to them .
That is not their problem It is the one who is feeling less than.
how do ya fix this, by being confident myself by knowing Im a good and worthy person with maybe a question about a topic they know much about.
I do not think they get big heads knowing what they know. it is a tough job to teach people .
A bottom line they are better at knowing what the bible may say.
But I do not take that as I am less rather it is an honor to be part of what Christ wants us to be a body a family a loving connection to one another who need and cares for one another.
but it has to come from your own inside these "feelings" I can not tell you to feel good about who you are .
most who feel less than about themself will call other names or accuse them of being arrogant or stuck up or elite.
In light of Mike's post, I finished reading a book this morning, "The Grace Awakening" by Charles Swindoll and think the following excerpt is appropo. A vision(?) maybe to keep in mind and something for all the splinter groups to keep in mind. The book was updated in 2003.
I hope this isn't deemed as . If so apologies.
The end of the book states:
"In vain I have searched the Bible for examples of early Christians whose lives were marked by rigidity, predictability, inhibition, dullness, and caution. Fortunately, grim, frowning, joyless saints in Scripture are conspicuous by their absence. Instead, the examples I find are of adventurous, risk-taking, enthusiastic, and authentic believers whose joy was contagious even in times of painful trial. Their vision was broad even when death drew near. Rules were few and changes were welcome. The contrast between then and now is staggering.
The difference, I am convinced, is grace. Grace scales the wall and refuses to be restricted. It lives above the demnds of human opinion and breaks free from legalistic regulations. Grace dares us to take hold of the sledge of courage and break through longstanding stones. Grace invites us to chart new courses and explore ever-expanding regions, all the while delighting in the unexpected. While others care more about maintaining the wall and fearing those who guard it, grace is constantly looking for ways to freedom. Grace wants faith to fly, regardless of what grim-faced officials may say or think or do.
Thank you for walking with me through the pages of this journey. It has been a stimulating challenge to write these thoughts...Perhaps this book is enough to encourage you to join the movement and get you started on your own venture. I hope so. But as you strike out on your own, beware. As surely as Bunyan's hero encountered every test and temptation en route to the Celestial City, you will come up against one legalistic stone after another, each existing for the same purpose: to keep you from the freedom you have in Christ.
Whatever you do, don't quit! Press on. It is worth all the effort. The good news is that you are not alone.
There is a "grace-awakening" loose in the land. The ranks are swelling. Will you become a part of them? While you take your turn with the sledgehamer and pound away, a host of us are standing near, and some of us may be half a world away, cheering you on. Don't think of it as a lonesome, isolated task. You are breaking through to freedom, and no one is more delighted than the Lord Jesus Christ, who has promised you His grace. Never forget His words: "If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." Stay at it. By the grace of Almighty God, the new movement will someday sweep across every continent, and the longstanding wall that has kept people in bondage for centuries will come tumbling down. And we shall all be free. Free in Christ, free indeed. Free at last."
They all have an arrogant self-righteous almighty attitude of being better than everyone else.
Well I wouldnt say ALL, although there are agreat amount of ministers across the board who do fall into that category. Some of you know that I work with alot of ministers--to some its just a job, some (well too many really) are better than you --but every once in awhile there is someone (who could be in almost any denomination) who imo is genuinely the real deal--to me those people are worth knowing.
I think that the way and way offshoots are especially susceptible because of the way they have been trained and the way that they have been programmed to think for years--and the erroneous examples that they have had put in front of them....
When they leave--too many go directly into something else--- they may change a few dots in the i's or cross a few t's differently but they are still basically the same people and carry the same things with them...
It was the striking LACK of this elitism that got my attention in 1971 when I first encountered the ministry. Back then just EVERYONE was benevolently “suspect” of having some kind of gift ministry or special talent to contribute. At that time there were no Corps leadership on the field. But gradually, with each graduating wave of Corps, the elitism slowly took hold.
Mike,
I think you make a good point. And I think that is something that is not restricted to TWI.
In reality it is something that, if you look at it, is a form of idolatry. Commonly known as MOG worship. Unfortunately, as I say, something that is common in many churches and many ministries. (Note to all: what separated TWI from "many churches and many ministries" was the degree of the worship, not the worship, itself).
Mark, I would like to ask a question. And I mean this as a serious question, not trying to be combative in any way. But don't you see the way many(maybe most) Catholic's view the Pope as MOG worship? You know, everything he says being excathedra (I think that is the right word) and all that?
Again, this is a genuine quesiton, I'm not putting down anyone's religion, just wanted to know your thoughts.
Mark, I would like to ask a question. And I mean this as a serious question, not trying to be combative in any way. But don't you see the way many(maybe most) Catholic's view the Pope as MOG worship? You know, everything he says being excathedra (I think that is the right word) and all that?
Again, this is a genuine quesiton, I'm not putting down anyone's religion, just wanted to know your thoughts.
Rick
Legit question.
First, not everything the Pope says is ex cathedra. In fact, most of what the Pope says is not ex cathedra.
"Ex cathedra" only applies to matters of faith and doctrine. It cannot apply anything outside of that. For example, the Pope could declare that the Iraq war is immoral (in fact, JPII was opposed to it). That is his conisdered opinion. Out of personal respect for the man, I do consider that. But I am not obliged to agree with him on that issue. He can show the reasoning for his decision and can make a serious case that, in accordance with estabished doctrine, this is the only logical conclusion, but that's the limit.
"Ex cathedra" doesn't even apply to all statements on faith and morals. They don't just all of a sudden invent doctrinal matters, contrary to what a lot of folks would allege. Usually, an ex cathedra proclamation happens when there is a major controversy about an issue and something needs to be done to stem a growing heresy. For example, the last profound ex cathedra statement I can think of was back in the 1960s with Paul VI declaring that the use of artificial contraceptive methods to for the purpose of inhibiting the procreative purposes of sex was sinful. But if you were to read the document, Humanae Vitae, you would see that he shows the chain of logic in making that decision. And, yes, he did apply precedent and logic in making that pronouncement. Although the "natural law," scriptures, and tradition have consistently taught that the use of artificial contraception was wrong, this was the first definitive statement that explicitly bound Catholics. The vast majority of papal documents restate and repackage already existing doctrinal principles or, perhaps, apply those principles to new situations and are not made infallibly. Having said that, they still bear consideration...but are not new, infallible declarations. There is a difference.
Most major doctrinal prouncements have come as the result of ecumenical councils, where all the bishops, as successors to the apostles, meet collegially to consider matters of concern to the Church. The Pope typically only acts in areas of interpretation or in areas of great urgency. (In fact, although there was historical precedent, the doctrine of 'papal infallibility' was confirmed by such an ecumenical council...)
As to the deference applied to members of the Church hierarchy, frankly, in many cases you are correct. We do give respect and deference to the bishops, including to the Pope. I believe the abuse of MOG-worship bit is what enabled the clergy sex abuse scandal. Fortunately, not everybody has that attitude. And, even more fortunately, the vast majority of those to whom such reverence was given have never abused that reverence. But MOG worship, whether it is through TWI, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Methodist Church, the Baptist Church, or whoever, is a matter of spiritual laziness on the part of the worshipper. Turn the brain off and let somebody else drive. A lot of Catholics are guilty of what you say...doesn't mean that it's right... (And, again, I can think of a lot of Protestants who are that way, as well) -- I'd challenge somebody to show me in an official Catholic document where one is supposed to turn his brain off when listening to a member of the clergy...to include the Pope.
I can only speak for myself here, but the dererence I give is due to the respect for the sacrament of Holy Orders (the "Ordination" of the people involved). As to whether or not I have respect for the person filling the office: well, the person in the office has to earn that respect and that deferrence from me. I have met many priests who have managed to earn that degree of personal respect. I have met many whom I respect for the collar, but have little personal respect for. The same applies to the bishops that I am familiar with: some are truly men of God; many others are worthy of only ceremonial deferrence. I am very glad that none of the Popes that have served in that position have earned my scorn. (I think of Paul IV...whose idiocy spurred the Protestant reformation...as an archtype of that). Sometime you should go over to Free Republic and check out some of the "Catholic" threads on the "Religion" forum...the scorn heaped on the US bishops is intense and obvious. It shows that there are several very "orthodox" Catholics who are hardly guilty of MOG-worship.
I think you make a good point. And I think that is something that is not restricted to TWI.
In reality it is something that, if you look at it, is a form of idolatry. Commonly known as MOG worship. Unfortunately, as I say, something that is common in many churches and many ministries. (Note to all: what separated TWI from "many churches and many ministries" was the degree of the worship, not the worship, itself).
Mark,
There's a problem if this idea of MOG worship is oversimplified in cult detection.
Sure, I see the problems typical cults fall into with their placement of a personality on too high a pedestal.
But we also do see Biblical precedent for great RESPECT, or double honor, being given to those men whom the True God chooses to help us.
A cult detector with the MOG worship calibration adjusted to an overly sensitive setting will sound the alarm on Moses and many of the OT judges and prophets, as well as Paul with his traveling companions, and would totally peg the needle for Jesus and his twelve.
There's a problem if this idea of MOG worship is oversimplified in cult detection.
Sure, I see the problems typical cults fall into with their placement of a personality on too high a pedestal.
But we also do see Biblical precedent for great RESPECT, or double honor, being given to those men whom the True God chooses to help us.
A cult detector with the MOG worship calibration adjusted to an overly sensitive setting will sound the alarm on Moses and many of the OT judges and prophets, as well as Paul with his traveling companions, and would totally peg the needle for Jesus and his twelve.
You are absolutely right with what you say here (OK, you can get up off the floor...I did agree with you twice in one day!).
I'm still standing because I could plainly see the great respect and double honor you extend toward the Pope in your longer post above.
So it's more a matter of WHO gets our great respect and double honor that you and I would disagree over.
Still, in their overractions to the fiasco that the ministry became, I see many posters here who think of totally obliterating the Biblicaly sound ideas of a Man of God and his due "double honor" as a neccessary step in fighting the devilish elitism that this thread focuses on.
Thank you for your reply Mark. I was under the impression that EVERYTHING the pope said was considered ex cathedra. So I learned something. :)
I also agree that MOG worship happens with all faiths, not just Catholic.
And I also agree that there are good priests, and bad ones. I was never Catholic, but got involved in a program called Search, that was sponsered by the Catholic church when I was in high school, and because of that, played guitar in a lot of guitar masses. I met many young priests who were just out of seminary, and full of great ideals, who hadn't becomed jaded, as it seems a lot of older priests become.
See, I don't believe in any "religion" anymore. Got kicked out of a church when I was younger cause I was dating the preacher's daughter, and he didn't like me. Got kicked out of the way and told not to come back till I was ready to be a disciple. So I'm kind of done with organized religion. But in my opinion, Catholic, Protastant, Luthern, The Way, splinter group, or (insert religion here) we all worship the same God. Seems to me that that is the most important part.
OK, so I'll stop rambling now. We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic. :)
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markomalley
I have seen this multiple times with ministries that were identified with a single person (unless, of course, that single person is Christ)...and that applies to Protestant, Catholic, cult, or whatever. It is a very great temptation if that ministry is associated with a single mortal person, that the ministry will develop into a cult of personality. And when that cult of personality happens, arrogance is not too far behind. Not all...but I've seen it too many times to discount it.
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FreeFromCults
It is not just TWI, but also other cults, ministries. It also happens in mainstream Christianity and in other religions (see Islam) as well.
They all have an arrogant self-righteous almighty attitude of being better than everyone else.
It's reason why I don't belong to any ministry nor practice any religion.
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Nottawayfer
I have definitely seen this in other ex-way ministries, cults, and some christian churches. Usually the christian church situation is because people put the pastor on a pedestal. The church I fell in love with taught this about the pastor:
"The church leaders are aware of their own weaknesses and need to grow and are open about their hurt, pain, failings, and humanity. Instead of "having it all together" and being insulated from confrontation and change, they are in a process of healing and opening up to their own safe people for support and accountability."
This was NEVER seen in any twig, fellowship, or offshoot I ever attended. It was alway about Dr. Wierwille or whoever else and presenting them in a perfect way.
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Mike
waterbuffalo,
I too have seen this in most of the offshoots and splinter groups. Sometimes it’s very well masked by a “nice guy” persona, but it comes out when the “nice guys” are opposed on what they consider important.
This elitism is rampant in all religions, as well as in academia and industry. It’s part of the fallen human condition to try and “lord it” over others. Slavery is the ultimate fulfillment of this flaw.
It was the striking LACK of this elitism that got my attention in 1971 when I first encountered the ministry. Back then just EVERYONE was benevolently “suspect” of having some kind of gift ministry or special talent to contribute. At that time there were no Corps leadership on the field. But gradually, with each graduating wave of Corps, the elitism slowly took hold.
It was very difficult to pinpoint this as it was happening, but it started bugging me in the early 80’s. I called it “Mystery Busting” because this elitism caused great blindness to God’s great secret that we are ALL members of the same body. I was correctly identifying the symptom of a major disease that hit the ministry, but I didn’t know the cause or the cure, since that same root cause had affected me too.
By the mid 80’s the Mystery was fully busted and elitism was in full swing as it remains today distributed into nearly all the splinter groups.
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oldiesman
Waterbuffalo,
I think the phenomenon you speak of is not unique to twi or twi-related groups.
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pond
I used to see this .
In the off shoots and in churches .
The I took home the fact I can not change anyone but me, and I began to see me differently .
I got rid of the shame some of the past has instilled in me .
a sinner for some means your not good enough .. and it stuck, within me like a shame base church would teach.
Now when I meet peopel IM convinced Im as good as they are , IM just convinced.
I have no shame in my life. do I make mistakes?
sure but God says everyone does and has and will.
Everyone.
so since IM the only one I can be I look at myself and I like me!
so I assume everyone eles must as well.. and if they do not I ask them why what is the issue.
and then I confront the issue, and hold respect for me and the other person and work out the differnces of the problem.
I do not engage in battles of the flesh because I really believe God loves each of us .
Academia or knowledge is a frustrating thing , many in Spirit and Truth such as Mark and John and JOHN really do have a lot of bibcal answers.
they have spent a life time learning what this is or isnt according to the bible, they are confident and really should be .
Sometimes people with less confidence feel "put down" or less than when talking to them .
That is not their problem It is the one who is feeling less than.
how do ya fix this, by being confident myself by knowing Im a good and worthy person with maybe a question about a topic they know much about.
I do not think they get big heads knowing what they know. it is a tough job to teach people .
A bottom line they are better at knowing what the bible may say.
But I do not take that as I am less rather it is an honor to be part of what Christ wants us to be a body a family a loving connection to one another who need and cares for one another.
but it has to come from your own inside these "feelings" I can not tell you to feel good about who you are .
most who feel less than about themself will call other names or accuse them of being arrogant or stuck up or elite.
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I Love Bagpipes
In light of Mike's post, I finished reading a book this morning, "The Grace Awakening" by Charles Swindoll and think the following excerpt is appropo. A vision(?) maybe to keep in mind and something for all the splinter groups to keep in mind. The book was updated in 2003.
I hope this isn't deemed as
. If so apologies.
The end of the book states:
"In vain I have searched the Bible for examples of early Christians whose lives were marked by rigidity, predictability, inhibition, dullness, and caution. Fortunately, grim, frowning, joyless saints in Scripture are conspicuous by their absence. Instead, the examples I find are of adventurous, risk-taking, enthusiastic, and authentic believers whose joy was contagious even in times of painful trial. Their vision was broad even when death drew near. Rules were few and changes were welcome. The contrast between then and now is staggering.
The difference, I am convinced, is grace. Grace scales the wall and refuses to be restricted. It lives above the demnds of human opinion and breaks free from legalistic regulations. Grace dares us to take hold of the sledge of courage and break through longstanding stones. Grace invites us to chart new courses and explore ever-expanding regions, all the while delighting in the unexpected. While others care more about maintaining the wall and fearing those who guard it, grace is constantly looking for ways to freedom. Grace wants faith to fly, regardless of what grim-faced officials may say or think or do.
Thank you for walking with me through the pages of this journey. It has been a stimulating challenge to write these thoughts...Perhaps this book is enough to encourage you to join the movement and get you started on your own venture. I hope so. But as you strike out on your own, beware. As surely as Bunyan's hero encountered every test and temptation en route to the Celestial City, you will come up against one legalistic stone after another, each existing for the same purpose: to keep you from the freedom you have in Christ.
Whatever you do, don't quit! Press on. It is worth all the effort. The good news is that you are not alone.
There is a "grace-awakening" loose in the land. The ranks are swelling. Will you become a part of them? While you take your turn with the sledgehamer and pound away, a host of us are standing near, and some of us may be half a world away, cheering you on. Don't think of it as a lonesome, isolated task. You are breaking through to freedom, and no one is more delighted than the Lord Jesus Christ, who has promised you His grace. Never forget His words: "If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." Stay at it. By the grace of Almighty God, the new movement will someday sweep across every continent, and the longstanding wall that has kept people in bondage for centuries will come tumbling down. And we shall all be free. Free in Christ, free indeed. Free at last."
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ckmkeon
I think you guys don't know the meaning of a cult
Cult- a system of religious worship, devoted attachment to a person
ckmkeon
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Mike
What you mean "THE" meaning, ckeemo sabbi?
Since when has a word ever had only one definition?
Since when has a word ever had a definitive definition?
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mstar1
Well I wouldnt say ALL, although there are agreat amount of ministers across the board who do fall into that category. Some of you know that I work with alot of ministers--to some its just a job, some (well too many really) are better than you --but every once in awhile there is someone (who could be in almost any denomination) who imo is genuinely the real deal--to me those people are worth knowing.
I think that the way and way offshoots are especially susceptible because of the way they have been trained and the way that they have been programmed to think for years--and the erroneous examples that they have had put in front of them....
When they leave--too many go directly into something else--- they may change a few dots in the i's or cross a few t's differently but they are still basically the same people and carry the same things with them...
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waterbuffalo
mj,
I think I get what you're saying: Blessed be thee name of thee Johns and thee Mark. Blessed be thee name of thee Johns and thee Mark.
wb
Mark O'Malley,
Do we know each other? I'm sorry, I haven't read up on how to pt's yet. Could you send me one and then I'll have to figure out how to read it.
Thanks!
wb
Free From,
I' know what you mean--like Bin Laden. Right?
wb
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Oakspear
System of religious worship - check, the Way was and is such
Devoted attachment to a person - check, Wierwille was the person that we were devoted and attached to
Listen ckmkeon, I know this is all new to you, and there is some disagreement about whether TWI is a cult, but we don't know the meaning?
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waterbuffalo
I Love Bagpipes,
That is soooooooo beautiful! Thank you for posting that (didn't want to say sharing-lol)!
wb
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markomalley
Mike,
I think you make a good point. And I think that is something that is not restricted to TWI.
In reality it is something that, if you look at it, is a form of idolatry. Commonly known as MOG worship. Unfortunately, as I say, something that is common in many churches and many ministries. (Note to all: what separated TWI from "many churches and many ministries" was the degree of the worship, not the worship, itself).
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Bluzeman
Mark, I would like to ask a question. And I mean this as a serious question, not trying to be combative in any way. But don't you see the way many(maybe most) Catholic's view the Pope as MOG worship? You know, everything he says being excathedra (I think that is the right word) and all that?
Again, this is a genuine quesiton, I'm not putting down anyone's religion, just wanted to know your thoughts.
Rick
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markomalley
Legit question.
First, not everything the Pope says is ex cathedra. In fact, most of what the Pope says is not ex cathedra.
"Ex cathedra" only applies to matters of faith and doctrine. It cannot apply anything outside of that. For example, the Pope could declare that the Iraq war is immoral (in fact, JPII was opposed to it). That is his conisdered opinion. Out of personal respect for the man, I do consider that. But I am not obliged to agree with him on that issue. He can show the reasoning for his decision and can make a serious case that, in accordance with estabished doctrine, this is the only logical conclusion, but that's the limit.
"Ex cathedra" doesn't even apply to all statements on faith and morals. They don't just all of a sudden invent doctrinal matters, contrary to what a lot of folks would allege. Usually, an ex cathedra proclamation happens when there is a major controversy about an issue and something needs to be done to stem a growing heresy. For example, the last profound ex cathedra statement I can think of was back in the 1960s with Paul VI declaring that the use of artificial contraceptive methods to for the purpose of inhibiting the procreative purposes of sex was sinful. But if you were to read the document, Humanae Vitae, you would see that he shows the chain of logic in making that decision. And, yes, he did apply precedent and logic in making that pronouncement. Although the "natural law," scriptures, and tradition have consistently taught that the use of artificial contraception was wrong, this was the first definitive statement that explicitly bound Catholics. The vast majority of papal documents restate and repackage already existing doctrinal principles or, perhaps, apply those principles to new situations and are not made infallibly. Having said that, they still bear consideration...but are not new, infallible declarations. There is a difference.
Most major doctrinal prouncements have come as the result of ecumenical councils, where all the bishops, as successors to the apostles, meet collegially to consider matters of concern to the Church. The Pope typically only acts in areas of interpretation or in areas of great urgency. (In fact, although there was historical precedent, the doctrine of 'papal infallibility' was confirmed by such an ecumenical council...)
As to the deference applied to members of the Church hierarchy, frankly, in many cases you are correct. We do give respect and deference to the bishops, including to the Pope. I believe the abuse of MOG-worship bit is what enabled the clergy sex abuse scandal. Fortunately, not everybody has that attitude. And, even more fortunately, the vast majority of those to whom such reverence was given have never abused that reverence. But MOG worship, whether it is through TWI, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Methodist Church, the Baptist Church, or whoever, is a matter of spiritual laziness on the part of the worshipper. Turn the brain off and let somebody else drive. A lot of Catholics are guilty of what you say...doesn't mean that it's right... (And, again, I can think of a lot of Protestants who are that way, as well) -- I'd challenge somebody to show me in an official Catholic document where one is supposed to turn his brain off when listening to a member of the clergy...to include the Pope.
I can only speak for myself here, but the dererence I give is due to the respect for the sacrament of Holy Orders (the "Ordination" of the people involved). As to whether or not I have respect for the person filling the office: well, the person in the office has to earn that respect and that deferrence from me. I have met many priests who have managed to earn that degree of personal respect. I have met many whom I respect for the collar, but have little personal respect for. The same applies to the bishops that I am familiar with: some are truly men of God; many others are worthy of only ceremonial deferrence. I am very glad that none of the Popes that have served in that position have earned my scorn. (I think of Paul IV...whose idiocy spurred the Protestant reformation...as an archtype of that). Sometime you should go over to Free Republic and check out some of the "Catholic" threads on the "Religion" forum...the scorn heaped on the US bishops is intense and obvious. It shows that there are several very "orthodox" Catholics who are hardly guilty of MOG-worship.
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Mike
Mark,
There's a problem if this idea of MOG worship is oversimplified in cult detection.
Sure, I see the problems typical cults fall into with their placement of a personality on too high a pedestal.
But we also do see Biblical precedent for great RESPECT, or double honor, being given to those men whom the True God chooses to help us.
A cult detector with the MOG worship calibration adjusted to an overly sensitive setting will sound the alarm on Moses and many of the OT judges and prophets, as well as Paul with his traveling companions, and would totally peg the needle for Jesus and his twelve.
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markomalley
You are absolutely right with what you say here (OK, you can get up off the floor...I did agree with you twice in one day!).
Latreia (adoration/worship) is due to God only.
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Mike
Mark,
I'm still standing because I could plainly see the great respect and double honor you extend toward the Pope in your longer post above.
So it's more a matter of WHO gets our great respect and double honor that you and I would disagree over.
Still, in their overractions to the fiasco that the ministry became, I see many posters here who think of totally obliterating the Biblicaly sound ideas of a Man of God and his due "double honor" as a neccessary step in fighting the devilish elitism that this thread focuses on.
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Bluzeman
Thank you for your reply Mark. I was under the impression that EVERYTHING the pope said was considered ex cathedra. So I learned something. :)
I also agree that MOG worship happens with all faiths, not just Catholic.
And I also agree that there are good priests, and bad ones. I was never Catholic, but got involved in a program called Search, that was sponsered by the Catholic church when I was in high school, and because of that, played guitar in a lot of guitar masses. I met many young priests who were just out of seminary, and full of great ideals, who hadn't becomed jaded, as it seems a lot of older priests become.
See, I don't believe in any "religion" anymore. Got kicked out of a church when I was younger cause I was dating the preacher's daughter, and he didn't like me. Got kicked out of the way and told not to come back till I was ready to be a disciple. So I'm kind of done with organized religion. But in my opinion, Catholic, Protastant, Luthern, The Way, splinter group, or (insert religion here) we all worship the same God. Seems to me that that is the most important part.
OK, so I'll stop rambling now. We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic. :)
Rick
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waterbuffalo
Hey Bluze!
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Bluzeman
Hey waterbuffalo!
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ex70sHouston
I really have to differ with you WB.
I agree that there are a lot of people out there in christian service that are arogant AH's.
What I have also found that is the people who really walk the walk are very humble people. They don't walk around with the holier than thou attitude.
Now of course I am great and all you are nut case cult crazies.
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waterbuffalo
...well, yeah, that's what I thought, too, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I've arrived, either.
So, are you saying extwi people that you know who say they have a ministry are very humble people?
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