I just threw that in there because it kept saying that there were posts, yet when I'd go to the thread, they weren't there... and I don't have anyone on ignore so I was just wondering... carry on...
What are you trying to learn? What is is it about leaders or leadership, or about the list of candidates, which drives your question?
Your question is so open-ended and vague, no respondent can hope to answer on the same criteria.
Why not? Because "leader" is a highly subjective term. How do we define it? By the success of the organization? By the leader's motivational skills? Speaking skills? Integrity? Sincerity? Ability to inspire loyalty in "followers?"
Any one of them might apply. Any combination.
Here's my opinion, such as it is...
If you were ten years older, I'd say you were making a fool of yourself. But at 19, you're only asking, not a foolish question, but a question foolishly, because you haven't really thought about it. You're entitled to be intellectually lazy. It goes with being a know-it-all teen and most of us have been through it, or at least close to it in our Way daze.
At 19, you are clearly a follower, not a leader. A man can't even lead himself, if he can't think straight enough to pose a question intelligently. It appears that you are given pat answers from someone you love and trust, maybe fear, as a dog is given pats on the head, and you faithfully and dutifully accept them, as if they were directly from God.
Those many pats have become your core belief system, and your question here is intended (I'm guessing) to lead others one or two steps toward sharing that belief system.
But your own "thinking" is so shallow (sufficiently evidenced by references to various, ridiculous websites) that you come across as a naive zealot, and nobody can take you seriously, even if you happen to stumble quite accidentally over something true.
At 19, I'd say you're pretty much normal for that certain type of teen, looking not so much for a belief to hold as a cause to hold you. You think you've found it. Accordingly, nobody else can convince you of anything else. You are convinced, and you are convinced that being convinced is the best way to be. You are convinced that others need your convincing.
ckmkeon, you won't convince anyone else of anything, until you consider your own positions a little more thoughtfully. Don't become cynical, but develop a little healthy skepticism for EVERYTHING you believe, a willingness to reflect.
Above all, reject junk - like those absurd websites, especially if it supports your own position. There's nothing to be gained if a liar sings your praises. (And how gullible could you possibly be?) Reject pat answers. Question authority. There is nothing disloyal or unfaithful in the desire to prove your own beliefs. It might be blasphemy, of course, to some people. Those people are not to be trusted.
It's before your time maybe, but The Way taught (probably an unwritten "principle") that questioning was proximate to betrayal. I recall being reminded that Dr. Wierwille's vision would never be the same because of the strong, harsh lights used to film PFAL, so how dare I question what he gave so much to teach? -- Can ya believe that crap? I didn't, but I did shut up, unfortunately.
By the way, didn't Jesus say the greatest leader was the greatest servant? What do you think he meant by that? What did he mean by servant? I'd be interested in your opinion, if it is actually yours. Do you have any opinions of your own, that you haven't been given by someone else, one way or another?
What are you trying to learn? What is is it about leaders or leadership, or about the list of candidates, which drives your question?
Here's my opinion, such as it is...
If you were ten years older, I'd say you were making a fool of yourself. But at 19, you're only asking, not a foolish question, but a question foolishly, because you haven't really thought about it. You're entitled to be intellectually lazy. It goes with being a know-it-all teen and most of us have been through it, or at least close to it in our Way daze.
At 19, you are clearly a follower, not a leader. A man can't even lead himself, if he can't think straight es to various, ridiculous websites) that you come across as a naive zealot, and nobody can take you seriously, even if you happen to stumble quite accidentally over something true.
By the way, didn't Jesus say the greatest leader was the greatest servant? What do you think he meant by that? What did he mean by servant? I'd be interested in your opinion, if it is actually yours. Do you have any opinions of your own, that you haven't been given by someone else, one way or another?
You know what I think you type way to much this quote of you I made would have been fine. Now my eyes and brain are so "lazy" as you put it, that this thread is putting me to sleep. Yes I have a opinion you read the first thread, the middle thread, and the last thread, because if you would have read everything you would have known my opinion. But I will tell you anyway, TWI was good at one point when VPW was the leader I believe then LCM lost control of "The Way" and that is where they are today. With Rivenbark frozen in fear that is my opinion
You know what I think you type way to much this quote of you I made would have been fine. Now my eyes and brain are so "lazy" as you put it, that this thread is putting me to sleep. Yes I have a opinion you read the first thread, the middle thread, and the last thread, because if you would have read everything you would have known my opinion. But I will tell you anyway, TWI was good at one point when VPW was the leader I believe then LCM lost control of "The Way" and that is where they are today. With Rivenbark frozen in fear that is my opinion
CK
Then what is the point of your question? Do you know?
What are VPW's leadership qualities, by the way? How do you differentiate between VPW's "leadership" and that of Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Charlie Manson? I'll grant you, he was not as extreme. But in his own way he used his followers to support a lifestyle which catered to his appetites, egotistical and sexual to name just two. Power and sex, CK, not love - those were the lodestones guiding his compass.
Whatever "good" there was in TWI came in with good people who believed the bible, and believed more as they were taught more. The corruption was at the center, in the name of Victor Paul Wierwille, and as he gained more influence, he perverted the good drawn not by him, or his ministry, but by the false promise of a ministry true to the truth.
Somebody's been filling your trough with hogwash CK. Would that be your mom and dad? Some people, like your sister, can't separate the bible from the Way. Some can't separate it from Wierwille. Same difference, actually.
TWI was good at one point when VPW was the leader I believe then LCM lost control of "The Way" and that is where they are today.
CK IMHO When Wierwille was in control I think it was rotten to the core.
I ask why you think it was good when vp was the head? You may have posted but I am to lazy to go read through this whole thread. I really want to know why you think it was so good since it was a "Front" for a terrible human(vpw).
Somebody's been filling your trough with hogwash CK. Would that be your mom and dad? Some people, like your sister, can't separate the bible from the Way. Some can't separate it from Wierwille. Same difference, actually.
Well I am not going to listen to a 5 year old person (Jan 1 2001). I am 19 I believe what I believe and you can believe who or what you want to believe. One persons hogwash is another persons truth. From what I can tell someone filled your head with "hogwash" that VPW has always been bad.
Then what is the point of your question? Do you know?
What are VPW's leadership qualities, by the way? How do you differentiate between VPW's "leadership" and that of Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Charlie Manson? I'll grant you, he was not as extreme. But in his own way he used his followers to support a lifestyle which catered to his appetites, egotistical and sexual to name just two. Power and sex, CK, not love - those were the lodestones guiding his compass.
Whatever "good" there was in TWI came in with good people who believed the bible, and believed more as they were taught more. The corruption was at the center, in the name of Victor Paul Wierwille, and as he gained more influence, he perverted the good drawn not by him, or his ministry, but by the false promise of a ministry true to the truth.
Somebody's been filling your trough with hogwash CK. Would that be your mom and dad? Some people, like your sister, can't separate the bible from the Way. Some can't separate it from Wierwille. Same difference, actually.
Ok your either stupid or new let me explain I have said many times I believe the early doctrines of VPW. I have said this many times, why should I read what you have to say?. Therefore I believe that TWI and VPW taught the truth while VPW was alive. That is why I think VPW was a good leader. Since you are not new you must be stupid I have put in different threads throughout GS about my beliefs. Everybody gets it but you why is that
maybe its the 5 year old brain.
CK
Now there's a novel way to chicken out. "I will not have a discussion unless I know your age and birthday!" - ckmckeon - or is it ckmcchicken?
Ya know, you've avoided every question, but I gotta say, I appreciate one thing you said: "One person's hogwash is another person's truth."
You ain't just whistlin' dixie there, CK. Have some more Koolaid.
I just threw that in there because it kept saying that there were posts, yet when I'd go to the thread, they weren't there... and I don't have anyone on ignore so I was just wondering... carry on...
Yea Tom -- it showed up on my screen here that I posted yesterday,
and when I went to see what I had said, it was dated Feb. 26.
Dangit satori... I forgot your birthday dude! Happy Birthday! (you sure look old for your age though)
Dog years, Tom. But I lie about my age, too. Thanks for the mention. Maybe I'll have that cake now. Ought to be in back of the fridge, behind the Pabst Blue Ribbon.
CK picked right up on the age thing, didn't he? A natural sleuth, unless... was it revelation? Hadda be. Damn I'm feeling suddenly nostalgic for life at Camp Piffle.
Did CK write his biography here somewhere? Was I supposed to read it?
Tom, if you do, let me know. I can never find the dang remote.
just saw this poll ckmkeon
let's put god in there, he created these fine folks
I think the reverse is true. They created "god," in their own image, a marketable product for mass consumption.
God Himself is above and beyond anything they ever thought or said, and therefore anything they ever thought or said about their own creation was inherently false.
OK - I've learned my lesson! I started at the last posting on the thread and was going to come in and help CKMKEON in reading a few responses. Reading from back to front, I finally figured it out......sorry. :(
That criticism of Billy Graham, at 87, after decades and decades of faithful service the best he knew, is just beyond the pail for me. As Mark & WW (and others I'm sure) did, I also wasted a bunch of time looking at those websites to see their reasonings on why Billy Graham is as evil as any TWI leader. OMG!
CKMKEON, is that the best you could come up with? Do you actually believe those accusations that were unsubstantiated?
Billy Graham "Disbelief in a literal hell [which we are in now...]"
"As a programmed multiple who participates in Satanic Ritual, Billy Graham has deceived everyone."
"Billy Graham is a 33rd degree Mason." [Once again, no evidence, just wild accusation ]
And one I take offence to is "Billy Graham is still receiving a salary, even though he is retired! [$189,385]...working less than 10% of the time!".
After a man serves decades and decades, how much do you think he should get? Should he be poor? Is $60k OK? Maybe $30K? Maybe only Social Security, so he can be admitted into a nursing home under Medicare when his ministry won't take care of him? It is offensive to me that anyone has a problem with him receiving any retirement money after all he did. Personally, I don't think he is getting enough. Hey, as an AMERICAN patriot, I also love capitalism How about the ball players, doctors, lawyers, rappers, even successful car salesmen who make more than he does? Is he required to be poor before he can be "OK" as a minister. Maybe you don't agree with all that weird stuff those websites said, but then you shouldn't have used them to justify lumping in Billy Graham with LCM! And tell me, how many anti-Graham sites have ongoing discussions from people who were severely hurt by him and his conduct? Keep searching for a site that has the participation that GSC has on TWI...good luck!
Boy, I'm usually much more mello than than this. Anyone have a cup of decaf?
The reason millions listen is beacuse Billy Graham has incorporated himself with the churches. People do not like change. Look at the work habits that we do, we learn one or two things and follow that everyday learning nothing new for years. Billy Graham does that (keep the old ways) and says he has something new and it is the same old stuff.
ckmkeon
Yeah, he probably shouldn't have incorporated himself with.....the Christian churches? Then if not with them, then with who? So what would be the alternative? To isolate yourselves off in a little cornfield in Ohio, telling the few that will listen to you that they are the "true household" and "remnant" and that they should join too, then isolate themselves from other Christians, family, etc.?
Also, please tell me where your research has found Billy Graham saying that "he has something new?" As a man with the gift ministry of an evangelist, his crusades have been very focused on getting people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What is so new about that? The same old stuff? At age 19, how far back have you heard Billy Graham's messages to conclude it is "the same old stuff"? :blink:
Sincerely, I do not mean to seem to be attacking you, but I do hope you really take to heart what others have been encouraging you - to research for yourself, to be skeptical, not always voicing what others may say (no matter how great they are, parents, teachers, respected ministers, etc.) until it is a clear belief you hold for discernable reasons. I close by giving my apology if I seemed abrupt or critical. I do wish you the best!
Well, ckmkeon, you say you believe this or that, but appear completely unwilling or incapable of discussing why. These forums are for discussion doncha know?
Maybe you should let your "dad" post again, so that we can get "his" take on things.
I think vpw was the worst because he conned the whole bunch of us -- including making lcm worse then himself. Without vpw lcm could have been like his dad, which wouldn't have been bad at all.
I am so very thankful that God is good and just, and I will be happy to see vpw get his just reward. The blood of many is upon his head.
Ok your either stupid or new let me explain I have said many times I believe the early doctrines of VPW. I have said this many times, why should I read what you have to say?. Therefore I believe that TWI and VPW taught the truth while VPW was alive. That is why I think VPW was a good leader. Since you are not new you must be stupid I have put in different threads throughout GS about my beliefs. Everybody gets it but you why is that
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I just threw that in there because it kept saying that there were posts, yet when I'd go to the thread, they weren't there... and I don't have anyone on ignore so I was just wondering... carry on...
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satori001
ckmkeon
What are you trying to learn? What is is it about leaders or leadership, or about the list of candidates, which drives your question?
Your question is so open-ended and vague, no respondent can hope to answer on the same criteria.
Why not? Because "leader" is a highly subjective term. How do we define it? By the success of the organization? By the leader's motivational skills? Speaking skills? Integrity? Sincerity? Ability to inspire loyalty in "followers?"
Any one of them might apply. Any combination.
Here's my opinion, such as it is...
If you were ten years older, I'd say you were making a fool of yourself. But at 19, you're only asking, not a foolish question, but a question foolishly, because you haven't really thought about it. You're entitled to be intellectually lazy. It goes with being a know-it-all teen and most of us have been through it, or at least close to it in our Way daze.
At 19, you are clearly a follower, not a leader. A man can't even lead himself, if he can't think straight enough to pose a question intelligently. It appears that you are given pat answers from someone you love and trust, maybe fear, as a dog is given pats on the head, and you faithfully and dutifully accept them, as if they were directly from God.
Those many pats have become your core belief system, and your question here is intended (I'm guessing) to lead others one or two steps toward sharing that belief system.
But your own "thinking" is so shallow (sufficiently evidenced by references to various, ridiculous websites) that you come across as a naive zealot, and nobody can take you seriously, even if you happen to stumble quite accidentally over something true.
At 19, I'd say you're pretty much normal for that certain type of teen, looking not so much for a belief to hold as a cause to hold you. You think you've found it. Accordingly, nobody else can convince you of anything else. You are convinced, and you are convinced that being convinced is the best way to be. You are convinced that others need your convincing.
ckmkeon, you won't convince anyone else of anything, until you consider your own positions a little more thoughtfully. Don't become cynical, but develop a little healthy skepticism for EVERYTHING you believe, a willingness to reflect.
Above all, reject junk - like those absurd websites, especially if it supports your own position. There's nothing to be gained if a liar sings your praises. (And how gullible could you possibly be?) Reject pat answers. Question authority. There is nothing disloyal or unfaithful in the desire to prove your own beliefs. It might be blasphemy, of course, to some people. Those people are not to be trusted.
It's before your time maybe, but The Way taught (probably an unwritten "principle") that questioning was proximate to betrayal. I recall being reminded that Dr. Wierwille's vision would never be the same because of the strong, harsh lights used to film PFAL, so how dare I question what he gave so much to teach? -- Can ya believe that crap? I didn't, but I did shut up, unfortunately.
By the way, didn't Jesus say the greatest leader was the greatest servant? What do you think he meant by that? What did he mean by servant? I'd be interested in your opinion, if it is actually yours. Do you have any opinions of your own, that you haven't been given by someone else, one way or another?
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ckmkeon
You know what I think you type way to much this quote of you I made would have been fine. Now my eyes and brain are so "lazy" as you put it, that this thread is putting me to sleep. Yes I have a opinion you read the first thread, the middle thread, and the last thread, because if you would have read everything you would have known my opinion. But I will tell you anyway, TWI was good at one point when VPW was the leader I believe then LCM lost control of "The Way" and that is where they are today. With Rivenbark frozen in fear that is my opinion
CK
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satori001
Then what is the point of your question? Do you know?
What are VPW's leadership qualities, by the way? How do you differentiate between VPW's "leadership" and that of Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Charlie Manson? I'll grant you, he was not as extreme. But in his own way he used his followers to support a lifestyle which catered to his appetites, egotistical and sexual to name just two. Power and sex, CK, not love - those were the lodestones guiding his compass.
Whatever "good" there was in TWI came in with good people who believed the bible, and believed more as they were taught more. The corruption was at the center, in the name of Victor Paul Wierwille, and as he gained more influence, he perverted the good drawn not by him, or his ministry, but by the false promise of a ministry true to the truth.
Somebody's been filling your trough with hogwash CK. Would that be your mom and dad? Some people, like your sister, can't separate the bible from the Way. Some can't separate it from Wierwille. Same difference, actually.
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justloafing
CK IMHO When Wierwille was in control I think it was rotten to the core.
I ask why you think it was good when vp was the head? You may have posted but I am to lazy to go read through this whole thread. I really want to know why you think it was so good since it was a "Front" for a terrible human(vpw).
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ckmkeon
Well I am not going to listen to a 5 year old person (Jan 1 2001). I am 19 I believe what I believe and you can believe who or what you want to believe. One persons hogwash is another persons truth. From what I can tell someone filled your head with "hogwash" that VPW has always been bad.
CK
(P.S at least I put my real birthdate down) <_<
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satori001
Now there's a novel way to chicken out. "I will not have a discussion unless I know your age and birthday!" - ckmckeon - or is it ckmcchicken?
Ya know, you've avoided every question, but I gotta say, I appreciate one thing you said: "One person's hogwash is another person's truth."
You ain't just whistlin' dixie there, CK. Have some more Koolaid.
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ckmkeon
Ok your either stupid or new let me explain I have said many times I believe the early doctrines of VPW. I have said this many times, why should I read what you have to say?. Therefore I believe that TWI and VPW taught the truth while VPW was alive. That is why I think VPW was a good leader. Since you are not new you must be stupid I have put in different threads throughout GS about my beliefs. Everybody gets it but you why is that
CK
All I am saying is at least I am truthful
CK
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Tom Strange
Dangit satori... I forgot your birthday dude! Happy Birthday! (you sure look old for your age though)
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dmiller
Yea Tom -- it showed up on my screen here that I posted yesterday,
and when I went to see what I had said, it was dated Feb. 26.
weird, eh??
(IMO) -- the Mods are messin with us!
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satori001
Dog years, Tom. But I lie about my age, too. Thanks for the mention. Maybe I'll have that cake now. Ought to be in back of the fridge, behind the Pabst Blue Ribbon.
CK picked right up on the age thing, didn't he? A natural sleuth, unless... was it revelation? Hadda be. Damn I'm feeling suddenly nostalgic for life at Camp Piffle.
Did CK write his biography here somewhere? Was I supposed to read it?
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Tom Strange
I'll have to get back to you later on that... I'm watching an "In Search Of..." about REMOTE VIEWING right now... maybe I can learn how...
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excathedra
just saw this poll ckmkeon
let's put god in there, he created these fine folks
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satori001
Tom, if you do, let me know. I can never find the dang remote.
I think the reverse is true. They created "god," in their own image, a marketable product for mass consumption.
God Himself is above and beyond anything they ever thought or said, and therefore anything they ever thought or said about their own creation was inherently false.
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excathedra
thank you. i stand corrected.
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satori001
...having done all, stand corrected!
Nothing you didn't know, in your own terms. It was for ckmckoolaid's benefit. Where is that boy?
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BikerBabe
He was in chat earlier tonight, said something about having computer probs, took off and never came back in. That's all I can tell ya.
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Patriot
OK - I've learned my lesson! I started at the last posting on the thread and was going to come in and help CKMKEON in reading a few responses. Reading from back to front, I finally figured it out......sorry. :(
That criticism of Billy Graham, at 87, after decades and decades of faithful service the best he knew, is just beyond the pail for me. As Mark & WW (and others I'm sure) did, I also wasted a bunch of time looking at those websites
to see their reasonings on why Billy Graham is as evil as any TWI leader. OMG!
CKMKEON, is that the best you could come up with? Do you actually believe those accusations that were unsubstantiated?
Billy Graham "Disbelief in a literal hell [which we are in now...]"
"As a programmed multiple who participates in Satanic Ritual, Billy Graham has deceived everyone."
"Billy Graham is a 33rd degree Mason." [Once again, no evidence, just wild accusation
]
And one I take offence to is "Billy Graham is still receiving a salary, even though he is retired! [$189,385]...working less than 10% of the time!".
After a man serves decades and decades, how much do you think he should get? Should he be poor? Is $60k OK? Maybe $30K? Maybe only Social Security, so he can be admitted into a nursing home under Medicare when his ministry won't take care of him?
It is offensive to me that anyone has a problem with him receiving any retirement money after all he did. Personally, I don't think he is getting enough. Hey, as an AMERICAN patriot, I also love capitalism 
How about the ball players, doctors, lawyers, rappers, even successful car salesmen who make more than he does? Is he required to be poor before he can be "OK" as a minister. Maybe you don't agree with all that weird stuff those websites said, but then you shouldn't have used them to justify lumping in Billy Graham with LCM! 
And tell me, how many anti-Graham sites have ongoing discussions from people who were severely hurt by him and his conduct? 
Keep searching for a site that has the participation that GSC has on TWI...good luck!
Boy, I'm usually much more mello than than this. Anyone have a cup of decaf?
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topoftheworld
Well said, Patriot! Here you go!
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Patriot
Yeah, he probably shouldn't have incorporated himself with.....the Christian churches? Then if not with them, then with who? So what would be the alternative? To isolate yourselves off in a little cornfield in Ohio, telling the few that will listen to you that they are the "true household" and "remnant" and that they should join too, then isolate themselves from other Christians, family, etc.?
Also, please tell me where your research has found Billy Graham saying that "he has something new?" As a man with the gift ministry of an evangelist, his crusades have been very focused on getting people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What is so new about that? The same old stuff? At age 19, how far back have you heard Billy Graham's messages to conclude it is "the same old stuff"? :blink:
Sincerely, I do not mean to seem to be attacking you, but I do hope you really take to heart what others have been encouraging you - to research for yourself, to be skeptical, not always voicing what others may say (no matter how great they are, parents, teachers, respected ministers, etc.) until it is a clear belief you hold for discernable reasons. I close by giving my apology if I seemed abrupt or critical. I do wish you the best!
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Oakspear
Well, ckmkeon, you say you believe this or that, but appear completely unwilling or incapable of discussing why. These forums are for discussion doncha know?
Maybe you should let your "dad" post again, so that we can get "his" take on things.
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Tom Strange
Maybe his 'parents' are afraid to come on this forum for fear that they'll be possessed like the rest of us!!!
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Kit Sober
I think vpw was the worst because he conned the whole bunch of us -- including making lcm worse then himself. Without vpw lcm could have been like his dad, which wouldn't have been bad at all.
I am so very thankful that God is good and just, and I will be happy to see vpw get his just reward. The blood of many is upon his head.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
ck good leaders don't have sex with thier flock
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