Which one is the worst leader??

[dmiller]

I didn't vote either, nor will I.

And I do have a question ~~~ (if I may) ~~~

What does Pope Benedict have to do with *leading* twi???

Ya lost me on that one there. :)

Suffice it to say, that there was once something that could have been good,

got soured quickly, and never recovered.

Look up the word *imploding* in the dictionary,

and you'll see a pic of twi right next to it.

By the time I learned the word "The Way" and the bible were already split. My sister was not so lucky she cannot tell the difference between "The Way" and the bible. She thinks both are the same. (My parents left "The Way" in '93)

'93 eh?? My condolences that it took them so long, but glad to hear they got out. :)

And there are some here who would say that twi was sour from the beginning,

and the more I read those posts, the more I am inclined to agree.

Draw your own conclusions from that.

[ckmkeon]

I didn't vote either, nor will I.

And I do have a question ~~~ (if I may) ~~~

What does Pope Benedict have to do with *leading* twi???

Ya lost me on that one there. :)

I wanted to bring in another leader of a christian organization that is why I brought him ( The Pope) into it

That is my mistake I just talked to my parents they said they left "The Way" in '88

But some people stayed longer than that (1993 my first statement)

ckmkeon

[socks]

I don't understand the criteria for voting - worst at what? VP, LCM and RR were or are acting Way El Presidentes. Chris Geer wasn't, although he ran the European Way into the ground in his own day. The Pope- whole different deal, unless you consider the Way a church, which they don't. They all 5 have managed large land holdings and assets. Worst at money management? Worst as teachers, pastors? Worst in body hygiene?

Worst at what? Leaders is vague. Can someone define leading? Is it just being in charge, the boss? Worst at being the boss?

Edited February 23, 2006 by socks

[ckmkeon]

I don't understand the criteria for voting - worst at what? VP, LCM and RR were or are acting Way El Presidentes. Chris Geer wasn't, although he ran the European Way into the ground in his own day. The Pope- whole different deal, unless you consider the Way a church, which they don't. They all 5 have managed large land holdings and assets. Worst at money management? Worst as teachers, pastors? Worst in body hygiene?

Worst at what? Leaders is vague. Can someone define leading? Is it just being in charge, the boss? Worst at being the boss?

All of the people were leaders VPW, LCM, and Rosalie The Way, Chris Geer The Way of England

, and the Pope The Roman Catholic church all are leaders of a christian church

ckmckeon

[socks]

So it's leaders as the person identified as the "head", the boss, the person in charge of their church or ministry or company.

Interesting.

I have no idea. Can't say. Sorry. Now I'm wondering - who was the "best"? Not sure there either. No help here.

[WordWolf]

I would like to read WW post on this topic.

How can I refuse a specific request like that?

(I'm presuming I'm the "WW", and it's not WashingtonWeather or

WaywardWayfer, both of whom haven't posted in a while.)

======

*Looks at the choices*

Well, I consider it a bit of a trick question.

That's because none of them existed "in a void" from each other.

(Except one.) So, they AFFECTED each other.

Therefore, an honest answer from me that actually tried to answer

the question would give my opinions on the suitability of each as

a leader.

1) Pope Benedict XVI

I honestly don't know much about him. I thought John Paul II was

pretty good for the most part, and Benedict (the man who became

Pope Benedict 16) acted in a sort of "Chief Operations Officer"

capacity for him. Votes for him as JP2's successor were seen as

a conservative choice-to maintain the direction set by JP2.

IIRC, the predecessor to JP1 (JP2's immediate successor who

passed away shortly after assuming the office) didn't have nearly

the same public outcry when he passed away, so I think the people

considered JP2 very highly, and that included NON-CATHOLICS.

So, people who had no reason to just fall in behind him

(besides me) felt a need to show respect and so on.

Do I think that some things in the RCC need reform?

Yes. Do I blame Benedict for them? No.

So, he'll PROBABLY come out on top in this dustup.

(BTW, you can scratch "they were all good" or "all bad" for me.)

That leaves me with the "4" twi top dogs.

2) Rosalie F. Rivenbark.

This woman seems bereft of a conscience or the milk of

human kindness. From the beginning of her exposure

to twi, she seemed to have the skill of keeping things

organized to the degree all humanity was squeezed out

of them, and the other skill of sucking up to the boss.

(Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 33: It never hurts to suck up to the boss.)

She kisses vpw's foot when he was looking- and backstabbed HIM

like everyone else when he wasn't looking. She had a standing

policy of "tell him I'm not in" when he phoned her office.

She made it a point to cozy up to whoever looked to be in power.

When vpw made lcm his successor, she was unable to get in with

lcm-but she made nice-nice with lcm's wife.

She is FINE with having one standard for herself and one for

everyone else. When others on twi payroll were ORDERED to

get rid of their pets (like cats), she got to keep her cats.

When corps were forbidden even once cent for luxuries of ANY

level, she got a boat and sailing lessons, and she has a

swimming pool-all maintained by twi worker drones.

Spiritual?

The rare times she's supposedly said or done anything at the

podium like that, she's read-not taught-and then mostly lists

of verses.

She demonstrated the ability to run programs in twi-and have

her workers go out of their way to avoid her. NOBODY ever

said a single nice thing about her, EVER. (Even the other twi

people have had one or two nice things said about them.)

There have been questions here as to if she was ever an

actual Christian, or if it was just an elaborate charade,

a scheme to get money and comfort, a cushy job.

3) Chris Geer.

My PERSONAL dealings with him were quite nice. On the one hand,

they were limited; on the other hand, I was SCRUTINIZING him,

ACTIVELY LOOKING for mistakes and failings. I didn't find any

at that place and time, and, looking back, I believe I didn't miss

any clues I was exposed to.

(I found a very minor error in one session at the time, and I

still don't think it's a big deal.)

As to his personal failings, they seem to center around

his blind worship of vpw. He accepted that vpw was justified

in screaming at people when it suited him, and-apparently-

yelled at some people in imitation.

(Not as OFTEN as vpw, but the principle's the same.)

He assisted with the support network vpw put in place that

facilitated vpw's molestations and rapes- presumably because

he believed vpw was honestly entitled to rape.

4) L. Craig Martindale.

This man is ANOTHER man who accepted that vpw was

justified in anything he did. Before vpw, lcm was an

athlete in college who was a Christian. If he never met

vpw, he might have matured into a good Christian.

However, vpw "spellbound" him from the beginning with

his persona of a man who had the exclusive Scripture

and connection to God, and lcm fell in line. So, lcm

was slowly taught to care less and less about people,

and more and more accept vpw's actions as always

correct. So, where vpw did things subtlely and hidden,

lcm-convinced they were acceptable-did them less hidden-

and was caught. lcm was a student who studied vpw,

and applied everything he learned. It's a wonder that

didn't land him behind bars.

5) vpw.

What can I say about the ringleader?

He set up an organization with the specific purpose

of channeling the money and power to himself,

and his lack of skills and lack of caring about people

put everybody ELSE on this list in positions to hurt

others-and taught them to hurt others in 2 cases.

(How do I support this claim? The way it was all done-

he centralized money and power to himself,

and that's a matter of public record.)

So,

who was the BEST of that list?

Probably Pope Benedict XVI.

Who was the WORST of that list?

Making a cold analysis, I can't make an easy

distinction. HOWEVER,

people who DID take real leadership training

all know that you accept the responsibility for

the success and failure for those under you.

Since the triple-disaster of lcm, rfr and cg

was all under vpw's regime,

it is all HIS failure,

and thus all his fault.

That means the evil deeds of the others are

charged to vpw's account as well as their own

accounts.

That's how I see it-others may disagree.

[topoftheworld]

You have to wonder (even in the context of the individual failings) why advantage was not taken to take the ministry to the airwaves when the popularity was high. There was probably a window of opportunity to do that, and the money would probably have come rolling in.

If you would indulge my theories, I think that overtly VPW said to do so would be a "sell out": seems to me I recall his contempt for Billy Graham doing just that in his early ministry. But covertly, they all knew that they could not personally withstand the scrutiny that would surely have come.

Just thinking out loud.

[Tom Strange]

veepee couldn't carry Billy Graham's jockstrap...

[ckmkeon]

veepee couldn't carry Billy Graham's jockstrap...

Billy Graham's Teachings are a waste of time. The only thing that seperates "The Way" and Billy Graham is the sex and the lies of TWI. They both now are in it for the money the more money the better they are taught.

ckmkeon

[topoftheworld]

I don't want to debate about Billy Graham: but he and his ministry have lasted decades longer than VPW, and his son is carrying on. For good or bad, money or not, millions listen and have been blessed. If you compare his ministry with, say, Jim and Tammy Baker, there's no comparison.

You sound like you are repeating the TWI party line.

[ckmkeon]

I don't want to debate about Billy Graham: but he and his ministry have lasted decades longer than VPW, and his son is carrying on. For good or bad, money or not, millions listen and have been blessed. If you compare his ministry with, say, Jim and Tammy Baker, there's no comparison.

You sound like you are repeating the TWI party line.

The reason millions listen is beacuse Billy Graham has incorporated himself with the churches. People do not like change. Look at the work habits that we do, we learn one or two things and follow that everyday learning nothing new for years. Billy Graham does that (keep the old ways) and says he has something new and it is the same old stuff.

ckmkeon

[topoftheworld]

Irregardless, he stayed faithful and out of trouble. I may not always agree with his message, but, as his life is coming to a close, I do appreciate at least one stedfast voice out of many sounding brass.

[justloafing]

Billy Graham's Teachings are a waste of time. The only thing that seperates "The Way" and Billy Graham is the sex and the lies of TWI. They both now are in it for the money the more money the better they are taught.

ckmkeon

WRONG........................Atleast Grahm has led the lifestyle of what he has taught. As the few of the people

that stick up for the twi here say, I paraphrase "It does not matter what twi did the Word is the truth". Grahm speaks the Word. So are you saying when Grahm speaks the word it is worthless? Reminds me of the waybrain that there is nothing good outside of twi.

Edited to say...........It is just not the "sex and the lies". It is also about the destruction of lives. Have you looked around the web site(more than just the forums)?

Edited February 25, 2006 by justloafing

[Oakspear]

Billy Graham's Teachings are a waste of time. The only thing that seperates "The Way" and Billy Graham is the sex and the lies of TWI. They both now are in it for the money the more money the better they are taught.

ckmkeon

Name one specific thing that Rev. Graham teaches

[Outin88.]

Billy Graham's Teachings are a waste of time. The only thing that seperates "The Way" and Billy Graham is the sex and the lies of TWI. They both now are in it for the money the more money the better they are taught.

ckmkeon

Whoa, talk about waybrained!

Billy Graham has reached millions with the gospel. And maybe some of what he preaches isn't 100% accurate, but at least he teaches a message of Christ which can help people get saved.

Edited February 25, 2006 by Outin88.

[socks]

Look at the work habits that we do, we learn one or two things and follow that everyday learning nothing new for years. same old stuff.

You said somewhere you're 19 years old, is that right? Give it a few more years, you'll learn something new. Seriously.

Look at the work habits that we do, we learn one or two things and follow that everyday learning nothing new for years. Billy Graham does that (keep the old ways) and says he has something new and it is the same old stuff.

What has he taught where he lied and it was the same old stuff but he had said it was going to be new?

Maybe it's just the way it reads but it sounds like you and Billy G. do the same thing from what you're saying - both do the same old stuff for years. Except that he lies and says it's new - is that it?

In either case, I'd agree doing the same old stuff the same old way isn't a problem in some cases. I still stand under the water when I turn on the shower. I get wetter that way.

Maybe Bill Graham should be on the list. He's a "leader" by your definition....?

[ckmkeon]

You said somewhere you're 19 years old, is that right? Give it a few more years, you'll learn something new. Seriously.

You would know

ckmkeon

Edited February 26, 2006 by ckmkeon

[socks]

:blink:

How would I? Know?

I'll taking that as you blowing my question off. It was an honest one. In your poll you list 4 ex-Way leaders and

one Cathollic Pope. I still don't understand the poll or the criteria you would use to define who would be the worst. Again, the question was by what standard is there a "worst" in your mind? What does that mean?

I'd also be interested in why it's useful to know that opinion of others. Again - for others reading this - I'm not criticizing that you ask or why, I was just looking for more information from you.

When comments brought up Billy Graham you made critical comments about him, that don't make sense to me, meaning I don't understand them. That doesn't mean I take exception to comments about him favorable or critical - it's just that the mmm...logic of your statements isn't clear. To me. If you don't know or don't have any reasonably current, significant and clear examples of your statement he teaches old stuff but calls it new I'll take that to mean you're just blowing smoke. Perhaps there's actually some teaching that Billy Graham does that you don't like or feel is wrong that you don't want to talk about here. That's fine. It appears you don't like him and I guess the reasons for that will remain a big secret.

You don't want to clarify, fine. You don't have to. I won't bother to ask anymore.

[oenophile]

I voted that they are all equally bad. Unfortnately, that forced me to fold Pope Benedict into the ignoble list. I will have to give him a pass (for now) because of his relatively nascent pontificate. If he should show some guts and openness in it's dealings with the victims of pedophilic priests, that would be evidence of good leadership IMHO.

One can hope, can't he?

[ckmkeon]

That how you would know being that you are so much older and wiser than me

ckmkeon

[ckmkeon]

Whoa, talk about waybrained!

Billy Graham has reached millions with the gospel. And maybe some of what he preaches isn't 100% accurate, but at least he teaches a message of Christ which can help people get saved.

His millions of people makes him millions of dollars. I would say it isn't 10% accurate, "He teaches the message of christ (Billy Graham)" so does every church. TWI thinks they are teaching the message of christ

ckmkeon

[WordWolf]

His millions of people makes him millions of dollars. I would say it isn't 10% accurate, "He teaches the message of christ (Billy Graham)" so does every church. TWI thinks they are teaching the message of christ

ckmkeon

Actually,

Billy Graham doesn't concentrate on bringing people to HIS organization.

If they're led to Christ and work with their LOCAL churches,

that's FINE with him, and is MUCH preferred to them not being

connected ANYWHERE.

Now, twi has always been "It's US or NOBODY".

Billy Graham has also been in the public SPOTLIGHT,

the glass goldfish bowl , for DECADES.

The internet has had LOTS of time to expose twi,

and LOTS of time to expose Billy Graham.

There's lots of site exposing evils of twi.

How many can you find "exposing" Graham?

He's been found "blameless", which is a requirement

of leaders.

Sexual scandal?

He won't even allow himself to enter an ELEVATOR

alone with a woman not his wife.

Want me to compare that with the twi standard on sex scandal?

[ckmkeon]

Irregardless, he stayed faithful and out of trouble. I may not always agree with his message, but, as his life is coming to a close, I do appreciate at least one stedfast voice out of many sounding brass.

Billy graham stays out of trouble...

http://cnt10.tripod.com/graham.htm "The False Prophet"

http://100777.com/node/498 "Billy Graham Exposed"

Yep he is out of trouble

ckmkeon

[ckmkeon]

Actually,

Billy Graham doesn't concentrate on bringing people to HIS organization.

If they're led to Christ and work with their LOCAL churches,

that's FINE with him, and is MUCH preferred to them not being

connected ANYWHERE.

Now, twi has always been "It's US or NOBODY".

Billy Graham has also been in the public SPOTLIGHT,

the glass goldfish bowl , for DECADES.

The internet has had LOTS of time to expose twi,

and LOTS of time to expose Billy Graham.

There's lots of site exposing evils of twi.

How many can you find "exposing" Graham?

He's been found "blameless", which is a requirement

of leaders.

Sexual scandal?

He won't even allow himself to enter an ELEVATOR

alone with a woman not his wife.

Want me to compare that with the twi standard on sex scandal?

He doesn't need to concentrate on bringinig people to himself people think he is the next Moses or Jesus Christ. I Have found 2 site exposing Graham so far and I will contine looking for you. He is a man everyone has error and is not blameless unless he is God, God is the only one blameless and without error.

ckmkeon

[justloafing]

A man without error, go figure :blink: