Since we're talking about Rom. 15:4, may I add that Wierwille missed the point badly?
Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the
infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The
reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our
learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures
might have hope.
Paul presents his point in v. 1. The strong bear the infirmities of the weak (not very Wayish concept there).
In v. 2 he calls Christians to be ,what, abrasive and standing on the "word"? No. To please his neighbor, the "unbeliever".
In v. 3 he calls upon christ's example as something we should follow and is applicable to us. He then backs it up with a prophecy concerning Christ.
THEN in v4, he makes that prophecy concerning Christ applicable to US, the reader. That prophecy is truth to us, we learn patience though our trials and persevere because of God's comfort.
The question isn't "to whom" is it addressed, the question is WHAT KIND OF PERSON ARE YOU? The Bible calls us to reflect Christ's nature. Biblical arrogance wasn't one of His traits, bruh.
Look, Evan, you're dealing with a 19 y/o kid who probably has never had his personal theology challenged using Scriptures as the reference. He's in my prayers that God will open his eyes...
Look, Evan, you're dealing with a 19 y/o kid who probably has never had his personal theology challenged using Scriptures as the reference. He's in my prayers that God will open his eyes...
I have had more "challenged theology" using scriptures than you will have in your entire life.
Why should I listen to you??
Are supposed to be a prophet or something?? (SAINT MARK the next Moses)
I have had more "challenged theology" using scriptures than you will have in your entire life.
LOL. I'm sure you have...I'm sure you have. After all, just ask Danny, Evan, LG, Garth, Templelady, or any number of other folks. Catholics like me just don't know jack sh1t about the Scriptures.
Why should I listen to you??
You shouldn't. You should be afraid, very afraid.
Are supposed to be a prophet or something?? (SAINT MARK the next Moses)
Nope, no prophet here. Just a happy member of what VP called the "Whore of Babylon"
Are you going to lead me out of VPW Teachings??
No, of course not. Only God will be able to do so. As an example, I'd cite Acts 9:3ff
I pray that God opens your eyes,
Thank you for the prayers. I can use all the prayer I can get.
When was the last time you used the scriptures??
ckmckeon
The last time I used the scriptures?
On GSC, I have recently cited scripture.
On this thread: a chronology of the Pauline letters was given to you on 2/21
On the "Does saying Jesus is not God..." thread, I quoted 2 Pe 3:15-17 on 2/21. See here.
In fact, I wasn't too active yesterday, so no opportunity to do so.
In fact, if you were to ask any number of folks on gsc, you'd find that I cite scripture quite often under a number of different circumstances. How many more threads would you like to see? (You can use the 'search' function if you'd like to see for yourself)
Now, as to when the last time was that I prayed the scriptures, that was a little while ago. See I try to pray the Liturgy of the Hours every day. Today was a nice set of readings, as it was the memorial of Saint Polycarp, Bishop and Martyr (lived AD 69-155)
During that, I prayed Psalm 95, as every morning. Also Psalms 87, 89, 90, 99, and 132. Readings included:
Ecclesiastes 6:11-7:28, Isaiah 40, and Revelation 11. The Mass readings were Jas 5:1-6, Psalm 49:14-20, and Mark 9:41-50.
You might want to check them out for yourself. A daily habit of praying and meditating on the Scriptures is a beneficial habit to get into.
That was my conclusion, Clay. When I left I attempted to establish a Christian foundation under me by going the Luther route (sorry Mark) and burying myself in Romans. A year of that is all it took to wash the bulk of Wierwillism out of me.
Rather than trot out a laundry list of PFAL errors (it's been done, and by far better than me) I would point out this, Mr. McKeon:
Jesus' followers are not known by WHAT they believe, but by WHO they follow. (And yes, I understand that to some extent the two are interrelated) If you were picked up on charges of being Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict? I'd like to be guilty of that...
That was my conclusion, Clay. When I left I attempted to establish a Christian foundation under me by going the Luther route (sorry Mark) and burying myself in Romans. A year of that is all it took to wash the bulk of Wierwillism out of me.
Rather than trot out a laundry list of PFAL errors (it's been done, and by far better than me) I would point out this, Mr. McKeon:
Jesus' followers are not known by WHAT they believe, but by WHO they follow. (And yes, I understand that to some extent the two are interrelated) If you were picked up on charges of being Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict? I'd like to be guilty of that...
No offense taken, Evan. As long as we can disagree about relatively minor points, with respect on both sides and without invective being thrown, it's a minor consideration.
BTW, I also really enjoy Romans, as well. Although I'd imagine that we might come up with slightly different conclusions when reading it...those conclusions might be more nuanced than you'd think.
Well, I would recommend reading Revelation after all. I have discovered some very interesting things in there that are very clear and contradict what vpw taught. No wonder we were discouraged from reading it! I will let you read it for full lightbulb effect.
Exactly I want to do the same as VPW in the beginning thank you for pointing that out
ck: By that statement do you mean that you're going to join a denomination, get kicked out of that denomination for fooling around with the women, (oh wait, I forgot, you also have to get a mail order ordination) , take a bunch of classes from other people then steal their material and call it your own, then take advantage of your position as a leader so that you can have lots of women and money?
You don't want to do that ck... you can do so much better... aspire to be better than he was...
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Oakspear
So, why do we think that "for our learning" excludes being written "to us"?
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Raf
The word "learning" in "for our learning" is the same word translated "doctrine" elsewhere. The scriptures are written "for our doctrine."
Just thought I'd lob that grenade in there. :)
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ckmkeon
:) Sounds good to me :)
Godbless
ckmckeon
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CM
i tell ya what is written to us, and even said to us
is us talking among ourselves
listening for that Christ in each other
listen close enough and you can hear it
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CM
well hell don't let me scare you guys off!
did i kill this thread?
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TheEvan
Since we're talking about Rom. 15:4, may I add that Wierwille missed the point badly?
Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the
infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The
reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our
learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures
might have hope.
Paul presents his point in v. 1. The strong bear the infirmities of the weak (not very Wayish concept there).
In v. 2 he calls Christians to be ,what, abrasive and standing on the "word"? No. To please his neighbor, the "unbeliever".
In v. 3 he calls upon christ's example as something we should follow and is applicable to us. He then backs it up with a prophecy concerning Christ.
THEN in v4, he makes that prophecy concerning Christ applicable to US, the reader. That prophecy is truth to us, we learn patience though our trials and persevere because of God's comfort.
The question isn't "to whom" is it addressed, the question is WHAT KIND OF PERSON ARE YOU? The Bible calls us to reflect Christ's nature. Biblical arrogance wasn't one of His traits, bruh.
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CM
yeah, the one standard Jesus held his disciples to was Love
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TheEvan
Well, CM, looks like we killed this thread. Say something nice and *poof*!
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markomalley
Look, Evan, you're dealing with a 19 y/o kid who probably has never had his personal theology challenged using Scriptures as the reference. He's in my prayers that God will open his eyes...
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ckmkeon
I have had more "challenged theology" using scriptures than you will have in your entire life.
Why should I listen to you??
Are supposed to be a prophet or something?? (SAINT MARK the next Moses)
Are you going to lead me out of VPW Teachings??
I pray that God opens your eyes,
When was the last time you used the scriptures??
ckmckeon
Edited by ckmkeonLink to comment
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dmiller
You should listen to Mark because he is polite, and giving you his perspective.
You can always agree, or disagree --- your choice.
And ---his answers are not fueled by testosterone or youthful belligerance.
I disagree with him more than I agree with him,
but he has always been polite, informative, and willing to discuss topics civilly. :)
(and btw ---) He does an admirable job of *trotting out* scripture
to make his points in his posts, unlike a lot of folks here.
So try a more laid back attitude CK.
It'll win you friends, and add years to your life!
"Learning is an exciting adventure."
Hmmmmmm. Wonder who said THAT!
Peace.
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markomalley
LOL. I'm sure you have...I'm sure you have. After all, just ask Danny, Evan, LG, Garth, Templelady, or any number of other folks. Catholics like me just don't know jack sh1t about the Scriptures.
You shouldn't. You should be afraid, very afraid.Nope, no prophet here. Just a happy member of what VP called the "Whore of Babylon"
No, of course not. Only God will be able to do so. As an example, I'd cite Acts 9:3ffThank you for the prayers. I can use all the prayer I can get.
The last time I used the scriptures?
On GSC, I have recently cited scripture.
On this thread: a chronology of the Pauline letters was given to you on 2/21
On the "Does saying Jesus is not God..." thread, I quoted 2 Pe 3:15-17 on 2/21. See here.
In fact, I wasn't too active yesterday, so no opportunity to do so.
In fact, if you were to ask any number of folks on gsc, you'd find that I cite scripture quite often under a number of different circumstances. How many more threads would you like to see? (You can use the 'search' function if you'd like to see for yourself)
Now, as to when the last time was that I prayed the scriptures, that was a little while ago. See I try to pray the Liturgy of the Hours every day. Today was a nice set of readings, as it was the memorial of Saint Polycarp, Bishop and Martyr (lived AD 69-155)
During that, I prayed Psalm 95, as every morning. Also Psalms 87, 89, 90, 99, and 132. Readings included:
Ecclesiastes 6:11-7:28, Isaiah 40, and Revelation 11. The Mass readings were Jas 5:1-6, Psalm 49:14-20, and Mark 9:41-50.
You might want to check them out for yourself. A daily habit of praying and meditating on the Scriptures is a beneficial habit to get into.
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markomalley
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ckmkeon
:) Sorry Mark I had a bad day and I took it out on you :) I hope you can forgive me
ckmckeon
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markomalley
Think nothing of it. Sorry you had a bad day.
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CM
i remember when i first got out i thought i'd be able to fix
what was wrong with pfal and be able to help others with it
problem was that pfal is unfixable and needed to be dismantled in my head
then i could think clearly and logicallly
it wasn't easy
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TheEvan
That was my conclusion, Clay. When I left I attempted to establish a Christian foundation under me by going the Luther route (sorry Mark) and burying myself in Romans. A year of that is all it took to wash the bulk of Wierwillism out of me.
Rather than trot out a laundry list of PFAL errors (it's been done, and by far better than me) I would point out this, Mr. McKeon:
Jesus' followers are not known by WHAT they believe, but by WHO they follow. (And yes, I understand that to some extent the two are interrelated) If you were picked up on charges of being Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict? I'd like to be guilty of that...
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markomalley
No offense taken, Evan. As long as we can disagree about relatively minor points, with respect on both sides and without invective being thrown, it's a minor consideration.
BTW, I also really enjoy Romans, as well. Although I'd imagine that we might come up with slightly different conclusions when reading it...those conclusions might be more nuanced than you'd think.
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TheEvan
I would expect nothing less than nuance from you, Mark. Of this I'm certain: I would thoroughly enjoy the visit & the exchange.
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penguin
Well, I would recommend reading Revelation after all. I have discovered some very interesting things in there that are very clear and contradict what vpw taught. No wonder we were discouraged from reading it! I will let you read it for full lightbulb effect.
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Tom Strange
ck: By that statement do you mean that you're going to join a denomination, get kicked out of that denomination for fooling around with the women, (oh wait, I forgot, you also have to get a mail order ordination) , take a bunch of classes from other people then steal their material and call it your own, then take advantage of your position as a leader so that you can have lots of women and money?
You don't want to do that ck... you can do so much better... aspire to be better than he was...
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Oakspear
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Tom Strange
Dangit Oak... you're right... my bad... sorry ck, just substitute "doctorate" for "ordination"...
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Oakspear
The big question is: Did he get a secret decoder ring with that doctorate?
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