Have you seen a counselor? Counseling did wonders for me!
I don't know that I let much fall behind in terms of taking care of stuff. But I used to have horrible panick attacks. I learned to breath through them.
I don't think I have any definitive ideas/answers for you, other than checking out counseling. BUT if you can survive 28 years of TWI and then leave, you are a strong person. Somewhere inside you that strength lies and once you see it within yourself, there will be no stopping you from accomplishing whatever you decide you want to.
I was obsessed with those kinds of things when I first left twi after 20 years in. I used to keep GSC minimized on my computer at work. I admit it kept me from getting work done. But it helped me a lot. It allowed me to be angry and work out my frustrations with people who understood where I had been.
People heal at different levels. I think some sort of counseling is great advice. I ended up getting counseling in a divorce care group. Getting out of a cult was similar to getting out of a marriage with the feelings of betrayal, lonliness, and emptiness. I think that helped me to move on quicker than without it.
It doesn't happen over night though. Give yourself time to go through all of the emotions that you need to, and don't feel guilty for being emotional. It's human to do when you experience the things we did.
Good way to put it...Emotional intrusion...Ive been going thru this since I left in 2000. I spent 17yrs total in TWI...My heart goes out to you...Ususaly most folks say relax and enjoy your..the confusing thing is I thought I was living in freedom all those years until I left..My mind was a seesaw reading thru and sifting thru all that went on without my knowing.....
I dont know where to start on healing..for the last three weeks I felt like a huge failure. Then some realy good stuff happened at work today...my heart just smiled..I realized God hasnt forsaken me and he does know my heart....I felt so foolish thinking for thinking there must be something in my physical that is wrong or spiritual..I decided today..to work even harder in keeping my mind and heart at peace and see trusting God bigger.....I am single so its harder at times:(
Be patient with yourself and be the good person you are....you are very valuable to those you love...I think giving is still very important....trying to build more goodness in life is never wasted..
So many ordinary things became so spiritual in TWi--your sock drawer, what you did the first half hour of the day, what was on top of your fridge--and the consequences were always horrid. Devil spirits in your house, or leadership in your face. There was always some area you knew you were falling short in! Now that fear has left, or is leaving, and you need to find nonTWI reasons to do things. Or don't do them, if they are not important to you.
I don't think there is anything wrong with getting help through counseling, either.
One of the most helpful things we did upon leaving TWI was to return to hobbies and interests we had prior to our TWI involvement, plus find new ones. Things like gardening, cooking, excercise, reading fiction, listening to live music...all those activities took time and had no TWI memories attached to them. We were really living a new life.( I was in twenty years, hubby a little longer.)
Cleaning house was a huge TWI memory maker, yet it has to be done sooner or later. I've found a way that works for me, but it took some time.
Yes all after all the hoopala of leaving dies down, it can be lonely at times. All of a sudden you are free......hmmm this feels different. I don't have to go anywhere 6 times a week mandatory and I have 10-15% of my income left, and no late night phone calls from the leaders, that you were half scared to answer or sometimes you just didn't I can make decisions for my own life. I don't even HAVE TO READ THE BIBLE. Oh no oh no, the sky is falling! What Martinpuke said might be true..........All my friends were in the way and now no one will talk to me.
These are the times that I had to remember all the reasons that I left. Once I could wrap my mind around those reasons again....it became easier. For me though, the freedom was so worth working my mind to get over the fear. And yes, my 2 daughters were petrified that we were all going to die because we got marked and avoided. But somewhere deep down in my heart, I just could not fathom God killing us because we left a religious organization. And I was not gonna kiss their butts to be "allowed" back in. Give me liberty any day of the week......
Probably just rambling now but my life is very prosperous now and my children's lives are full and good. It does get better as time goes by.........but hey I kept Waydale on my screen too in order to get my healing fix for the first few weeks. No harm in that. Thank God there was a place for all of us to meet up again and discuss all of this. Still to this day, after 6 years, I find myself freaking for a sec if I decide to take a different route home one night from work. I find myself stretched out in front of Lifetime movies all day sundays still in my pajamas, a small twinge of guilt but then it goes right by. I deserve a day to rest and do whatever the heck I want. It's okay to take care of you
It's only been just over a year for me and I still have those moments. I highly recommend counselling. If price is an issue, find one that will work for pro bono - there are some who do that. There is also community counselling available for a smaller price and some therapists will work within your budget. Mine is covered by my insurance and I only have to pay a copay. Depending on my budget I will go every week or once a month. If I could afford it, I'd definitely go every week.
Like you, Bagpipes, just when I think I'm handling everything just fine, I have a meltdown. I had one on Friday and Saturday, in fact. I got free tickets to Daytona for the Kissable 300 and the Daytona 500 - THE DAYTONA 500!! THE race of NASCAR!! One of my all time favorite sports!
After all the excitement of getting the tickets really sunk in, I realized I didn't have anyone I could call to go to the races with me. I lost all my "friends" when I left TWI. I realize they weren't "real" friends to begin with, but, still I was all alone with not one person I could call to get excited with me and to make the jaunt over to Daytona. I called a couple of co-workers, but neither of them could go and one's not all that into NASCAR anyway. The other co-workers I would have called I couldn't because I didn't have their phone numbers, since we're not really "friends" outside of work. I went all by myself on Saturday and had a good time, but not as much fun as I would have had if I'd have had a friend to go with. On Sunday, I just didn't go because I didn't want to go by myself. I stayed home, watched on tv and had a pity party.
Stupid little things like that really get to me. Other times it'll be something someone says that's totally unrelated to tWI, but it jars something in my memory and I just snap. You've gotten some great advice on here and they are things I've found helpful, too.
My mother thinks GSpot has been a Godsend and feels like she owes so many people on here so much for helping me. My therapist thinks I spend too much time on here and it's a replacement for the cult. I've never really spent much time away from here, so maybe I should back off a bit.
The most important thing, though, is to be patient with yourself and realize that it's a process and each day does get better. NOW you are in a position to really live the more abundant life we were promised. ;) You have the time, the money and the freedom to make your own choices. It really does get better and our lives get so much brighter the longer we're out.
Thanks for the responses. Its helps me remember that this too shall pass.
I thought today after I posted, "It is like I am self absorbed. I've been "here" before, when I was getting well. (note: I suffered from chronic illness for over 25 years.) I'd be self absorbed when symptoms would flare. Hmmmm...what did I do then? I told myself, 'It's understandable.' "
I'd handle it different ways at different times. Sometimes I'd see a doctor of some sort. Sometimes I'd exercise. I'd journal a lot. Sometimes I'd talk. Sometimes I'd watch a show/movie. Sometimes I'd play a musical instrument or draw. Sometimes I'd cook. Sometimes I'd even embrace the symptoms and not fight them, but sort of allow them to run the course..to get out of me. Today I think posting my problem helped me: to clarify and to know that someone out there would care enough to respond. (I've found a new help aid!!!! Maybe I should start a blog.... )
Back to your responses:
Thank you all for the encouragement regarding counseling. I've had much counseling the past 6 years with the health issues I've dealt with. I have two pyshcologists I am close with and that know me well...they have helped me tremendously in overcoming the illnesses with which I dealt. I've seen them each during this exodus journey. It has been some help, but not as much as GSC or CFF or other folks I've connected with along the way. There is a bond, an understanding, that goes beyond words...I guess like the divorce support group. I thought that a unique approach Wayfernot.
Thank you Morgan for reminding my of the strength within.
Likeaneagle I also thought of giving today after I posted..when I thought of the self absorbed thingee. I was gonna go shopping and make a big supper for the fam...but my back went out. But at least I got the shopping done and we ate soup and grilled cheese. :)
Funny Bramble and Outofdafog I thought about that performance based stuff too after I posted. I thought, "Hell, maybe all this stuff (responsiblities) are not all I make them out to be. Lighten up. The bills are paid; the sheets are clean; we have food and clothes and warmth; God smiles on me." I can look at GSC as one of my hobbies for now; instead of looking at is as being self absorbed. It will run its course and I'll move on to some other obsession. Or maybe GSC can be a way I can help others later on.
Belle thanks for your empathy and oh I know the loneliness feeling. My heart goes out to you. I felt lonely inside TWI..and I felt a hypocrite. I told myself after I left, "Well at least now I feel only lonely instead of lonely and a hypocrite." I've been blessed to connect with folks within an hour and so drive and much of that lonliness is gone. In fact I connected with folks yesterday who I haven't seen in 10 years!! I had a grand reunion. I literally stayed gone all day (10:00 am until 10:00 pm). (I WILL NOT FEEL GUILTY about taking that time to help mend relationships of 10 years past. It's IMPORTANT. Isn't it?) My prayers are with you too Belle. GSC chat has helped my loneliness at times also.
So...thank again. I'm feeling better. Maybe this chunk is about to crumble....and the next chunk will come along. Well...bring it on!
The best thing you can do is share, connect, and allow yourself to be HUMAN - FINALLY.
God equipped you with emotions - TWI taught us how to bottle them up. Breaking free from the bondage of TWI is one step - one day - one post - one thread - at a time. The more distance you place between yourself and TWI, the healthier you will be. You are headed in the right direction - you are greiving a loss - no different than with a divorce or death. Next, you will heal. It's a cycle, but a gradual one. Don't look for ways to measure it - remember growth without compulsion - just be.
It is soo important to have friends. Some people did have friends outside twi before they left. I had one. I met her while I was in, and I never witnessed to her. Thank God! She was a wonderful shoulder to lean on and a great friend to lend an ear. She worked at Ethan Allen, so I went to many work parties with her and met other people also.
I also made friends at a small group from the church where I attended divorce care. It was refreshing to be around others who loved God without the cult mentality.
Had I not gone to church, I would have found a hobby which allowed me to meet others. It is sometimes just too hard to be alone when you first leave.
I've had much counseling the past 6 years with the health issues I've dealt with. I have two pyshcologists I am close with and that know me well...they have helped me tremendously in overcoming the illnesses with which I dealt. I've seen them each during this exodus journey. It has been some help, but not as much as GSC or CFF or other folks I've connected with along the way. There is a bond, an understanding, that goes beyond words...
I never did the counseling route, but I had my music hobby
that I threw myself into pretty intensely for a while there. That helped me a lot,
cause my ex and I split up right about the same time, so I was really on my own!
Yea -- for me it was finding new ways of keeping busy, work, etc.
It did take a (little) while, but eventually my new life did emerge. :)
Yer right -- GSC is unique with all the understanding folks have of your problems
(before you mention much about them), since they went through the same things.
Always feel free to ask things here. Plenty of free advice,
I haven't posted much on GS, but when I first found WayDale, uh, I was a rather regular contributor.
I didn't realize it at the time, but that was some of the best therapy I could ever have found.
I said all the nasty, ugly, (and, unfortunately TRUE) things I'd been thinking about WayWorld for years. I got it all off my chest. Day after day, I just unloaded. All the resentments, pet peeves, anxieties, broken dreams, unpleasant realizations, wasted years and resources, I let it all out. And after all that I DID feel better. I really did.
WayWorld was/is an unspeakable evil. They are a sinister, $hi++y little cult that exists ENTIRELY to serve the whims of it's leadership. An inbred, introverted, insular, self-serving, disgusting clutch of closed-minded, judgemental jerk-offs.
After spending 28 YEARS in such a dispicable outfit, it's no wonder you're having some issues after leaving. Give yourself a break. Do things for yourself for a change. Follow YOUR dreams for awhile. Find out what you really like, what your real abilities and interests are. And above all, take a break from Bible talk for a bit. If there really is a God, He can wait for awhile while you get your bearings again.
And if you think you could use a therapist, you should know that a lot a them WILL negotiate their rate, especially if they know you'll be paying cash, and may not have insurance. I'm not entirely sure mine did me any good (I was going to her for an entirely different reason), but, a lot of folks claim it was a life saver. You can always quit if it doesn't do it for you.
So, my advice? Post A LOT. Get if all off your chest. Say all the things you've only dreamed of saying before. Tell off all the boneheads at HQ and elsewhere. It's REALLY cheap therapy (God knows WayDale saved me a small fortune in "shrink" time).
So, my advice? Post A LOT. Get if all off your chest. Say all the things you've only dreamed of saying before. Tell off all the boneheads at HQ and elsewhere. It's REALLY cheap therapy (God knows WayDale saved me a small fortune in "shrink" time).
Absolutely......post away. :)
When I exited twi after 24 years of involvement......lcm and co. started their character assassination scheme against me and my spouse. Our crime?? We no longer wanted any more corps assignments; we no longer wanted to move from place to place at their beckoned whim. Finally, the time had arrived for us to stake our claim in OUR lives, OUR future.
Yeah....it was tough to leave our "friends" but NOT the corporate-hyped "household of twi." All of that garbage of crossing over the bridge to the promised land was childish-play games of pretend. Yep, the time had arrived. We opened the door.........and walked away.
When Waydale came onboard in April of 1999......what a Godsend. It was so refreshing and reassurring to see so many others with similar views. The information was current. Month after month, other corps leaders were quiting......and telling their stories. By mid-1999 and 2000, six or seven region coordinators packed it in and split from twi. Things were happening at a fast pace. The Allen lawsuit was filed. And, martindale was ousted as per the advice from twi's lawyers.
Here at GS.......more of the same. Lots of insight and advice and sparring. Differing points of view are refreshing. And, if identities were known around here..............heck, I probably know a good number of the corps folk here.
So, Bagpipes.....hang in there and enjoy the rebirth of freedom and relaxation. And, journey onward with a knowingness and peace of a veteran traveler.
Lol Hi Thomas, my name is Cathy and I was in a cult.... hee hee
Pipes, one of the big things that helped me after leaving was to develope some new interests entirely non bible related ... began to find *me* again....the one that wasn`t allowed to exist in twi.
As you explore your interests...you will find friends and balance....as you explore your interests you will start to remember the things that you once enjoyed but were told were unimportant.
Here are some suggestions that we enjoyed.... community theatre.... volunteering at the humane society....church groups....bowling leagues..... dog training classes....art classes.....it doesn`t matter WHAT it is....just stretch yourself in another direction.
I have met my dearest friend in karate class....our children are friends and we have struggled to study karate and grappled with the issues of raising our teens for nearly 5 years together now....I have found that sense of belonging and purpose in reaching our ultimate goal.
I have a terrific friend that I train horses with....I met her while caring for an elderly neighbors stock when she was injured.....one of the dearest and most compassionate women that I have met.
The point is, you will find that companionship in the most suprising and unforseen places....it will just take some time and patience...those *instant* friends and family in twi were rarely genuine.
Belle, I remember the cold bleak feeling of being alone after we left....I cried out to God for a friend...at the time I thought I would never have anyone to care about me again....I was so alone.....
It just took some time is all....true friends ... the ones that last a life time....the ones that will stick with you through your triumphs and your struggles.....take time and investment....
You guys are still very new out.... still getting your bearings....do not feel guilty for posting, that is carry over from twi....it is the best way to get this stuff out in the open and deal with it.....
Besides, I have made some pretty damned good friends right here in these forums.
Hey pipes. I think the preoccupation you mentioned is pretty normal. And yes, I promise you, it too will pass.
You spent alot of years not talking much about what was really going on in your life. With other way friends, I mean. The "silence" has been deafening, no?
Just give yourself permission to spend some time regrouping, reconnecting, recognizing, recollecting, reconciling, whatever it is you need, to get back to loving your life, and being there for your beloved ones.
And don't feel guilty. You haven't done anything wrong.
Recovering from twi is sorta like recovering from a broken thumb (I had a broken thumb)...
...At first, it seems like the thing will never quit hurting...and then one day, you realize that it just doesn't hurt anymore...it takes some time...be patient and kind to yourself. :)
I'm just having a tough month. Before I initially left (end of Ocotber) I was nervous, scared, that kind of stuff. When I "officially" left I was relieved. (Someone in CFF was a great help through all this..and still is.) After about a week or so I felt very alone. Then I read alot and absorbed so much about grace and mercy, that I don't have to live up to some god awful freaking standard in order for God to be pleased with me. I got lots of healing...my heart was getting healed. The hole in my soul was disappearing. I even had a few friends join me (in December and January) in my exit.
And now I'm sort of stuck. This recent "chunk" has been hanging around too long. I think I'm angry and a little confused. I'm not motivated to do much of anything. I have suffered from the depths of depression before; but this isn't that. However it probably is mild depression. I do not want to stuff it; I want to allow it to surface and then release it. I know what I "should" do..the steps of self care to take. But I'm not even much motivated to do those. I saw one of my docs today and that helped some. I have thought a GSC fast might be good for me....but then I'm sort of afraid I'll stop the process, the process of allowing myself to feel this "stuff" so that I can release it.
I have been trying to connect with "dreams" and "desires" for over a year...and have come up flat time after time. The closest I've come is to leave TWI!!!!
I hope I don't sound too dreary. I still laugh and play. But I'm really good this month at neglecting responsibilities. I've thought that maybe I should go spend a week in the woods somewhere...except that it is February.
Ex10 you hit something on the head when you wrote, "the silence has been deafening. No?" I cry when I write that. Maybe I just want to be noticed, heard, acknowledged. And I've gotten that here at GSC. I've also gotten it from other folks too. But maybe so many years of that deafening silence hurts deeper than I want to acknowledge. I'm trying to hold it together and maybe I need to let it fall apart. Oh, why does it hurt so much? (That's a rhetorical question.)
Well I'm hesitant to posts this reply. But I'm going to post it anyway. Thanks to all of you folkies!
I have been trying to connect with "dreams" and "desires" for over a year...and have come up flat time after time. The closest I've come is to leave TWI!!!!
I hope I don't sound too dreary. I still laugh and play. But I'm really good this month at neglecting responsibilities. I've thought that maybe I should go spend a week in the woods somewhere...except that it is February.
Ex10 you hit something on the head when you wrote, "the silence has been deafening. No?" I cry when I write that. Maybe I just want to be noticed, heard, acknowledged. And I've gotten that here at GSC. I've also gotten it from other folks too. But maybe so many years of that deafening silence hurts deeper than I want to acknowledge. I'm trying to hold it together and maybe I need to let it fall apart. Oh, why does it hurt so much? (That's a rhetorical question.)
Well I'm hesitant to posts this reply. But I'm going to post it anyway. Thanks to all of you folkies!
(((((Bagpipes)))))
Hang in there.....and spend time with quality friends as much as possible.
Yeah....for me, twi betrayal was one of the worst realizations. All of those years of service, of loss opportunity, of bringing others to twi.......and it all goes down in One Mighty THUD.
Keep dreaming.....and when you get the chance to dance........dance.
Pipes, we go through different stages in our recovery.....it is truly like losing a family member to death or suffering through a viscious divorce.
Many times you will grieve, be angry, mourn your loss, all different emotions experienced at different satges of recovery.
You have been in a major battle for your life. You have spent years in survival mode, years thinking, planning, finally the drama of escape....the fears accompanied with leaving, the battle to understand what went wrong....
Now that all of the turmoil has had time to die down....maybe you don`t know what to do with all of that energy needed to survive and escape.
You do not have someone saying that you need to do a b c anymore....you aren`t getting together classes or preparing for fellowship ...
This is hard to explain......but when I left...I was miserable and scared because I didn`t know how I was going to know where God wanted me or what he needed me to do... There were no more classes to recruit people for or events to plan for.
I no longer had my sense of self worth...that measuring stick utilized in twi....who CARED if I was a 2x wow vet....who CARED if I was corpes spouse....nobody knew or cared what classes I have had....
It is all very complicated, even harder to describe.....but we have been through some life altering changes.....it takes time to sort them all out.....
Feeling guilty for doing things we enjoy, or that we must remain*disciplined* or that in doing the things benefitial we are neglecting *responsibilities* is carry over from our twi days.
I'm just looking for others' personal insights on "recovery" (I don't even like calling it recovery). Did any of you have difficulty with consumed preoccupation with all this STUFF? Could you share practical hints on how you handled it? :blink:
I was participating in twi events for 19 years, but at various times during those 19 years, I chose not to participate, so I know what it is like to depart and what that feels like as I felt it more than once.
Do you still believe in speaking in tongues? The best advice I can give you is to ask God to help you. When I feel consumed with trouble ... among other things I pray in tongues much, and also with my understanding, casting those cares on God. SIT is a continuous comfort for me.
Pipes, I got out early (in the early 80's) however, my sister and her husband and family are still very much in (leaders)... so I too was alone... there was no GSC, no family (because my sister was still in) to turn to... just sort of finding my way on my own... but you know what? ...just keep on going doing whatever you need to do, I know that sounds simple, but it's all you can do... as others have said, see a counselor if you wish, post here if you wish...
I think you'll find that no matter what you post here there is probably someone who has gone through the same thing or similar...
What I do know is that (whether you know it or not now) you've been 'putting yourself second' (or third) for some time now, that's what TWI conditions you to do BUT you will continue to blossom out of that mind set... things that are 'normal' to most humans aren't immediately normal to you... yet... but they will be... TWI conditioned us all to feel guilty when we did something for ourselves... for no other reason except that we wanted to do it... what kind of freedom is that? That's just one of the lies that we all bought into at one time or another... one of the neatest things that will happen to you is when you finally realize that it's not 'wrong' to do something for yourself... even if it's just 'laying around watching movies on Lifetime'...
A lot of us put TWIs agenda ahead of our own hopes, dreams and aspirations but now you have the chance to take them back... enjoy life every chance you get... sometimes the 'purpose' or 'profit' of doing something is just for yourself... and there's nothing at all wrong with that...
Take your life and enjoy in whatever way you wish... and don't feel guilty about it... be happy... you're like a blossoming flower now... you're not going to go from a bud to a full bloom in one day, but you will get to full bloom... you will... you had years of conditioning by TWI that got you to where you are... you're now taking back your life and you'll be a beautiful bloom here at the GSC and where ever else you go...
Did any of you have difficulty with consumed preoccupation with all this STUFF? Could you share practical hints on how you handled it? :blink:
My take is that God gave us intellectual capacity so he would fully expect us to use this. Not necessarily as a substitute for a spiritual relationship but because it is important for us to know the problems which faced wise men and women throughout history. We get perspective and wisdom from this that we can apply in our own lives. Furthermore I feel that education is very important not only in terms of enhancing your employability but your general knowledge as well. For example once I pursued studies at an accredited institution I learned about philosophy, history, literature, math, and science and so on. I was amazed at how mind blowing this experience was. Of course one need not go back to school to experience this, just pursue a passion and explore it. See while I was in TWI they wanted to be your only source for education and they typically disparaged the concept of college education calling it "worldy knowledge". In reality the college experience was competition for the various Way programs and classes so they knew that if you were serious about school you wouldn't have time for TWI.
Lots of people who went in TWI had to put their talents and career interests on hold to fulfill the expectations of TWI. TWI was supposed to serve and empower us but it wound up being the other way around. There was no time for us to become individuals and develop our respective talents. TWI robbed many people of that experience. Sure, they talked a big game about "Word in culture" and about how individuals were called to accomplish some functio within the body but that was just lip service. All they wanted from anyone was for you to sit down and shut up and accept as truth any thing that a leader said. Forget about you, your individuality, your gifts and talents. TWI owns you and thats that. If you are living in Bakersfield , Cali today and TWI wants you to move to LaCrosse Wisconson by the end of next week , thats what you will do. They wouldn't give a flip if you had made good friends or you had started thinking about signing up for a creative writing course at the local college. Just pack it up and go. Way leaders would go "Creative writing ? Why would you waste time on something like that ? Besides, many authors are homosexuals".
In any case I endorse an experience where you open yourself up to the avenues of learning that weren't possible to pursue while you were in TWI. Maybe its painting, sculpting, writing, starting a construction business, going back to school , or whatever. Don't sit around waiting for another felllowship or religious experience to snap you out of it. Its certainly good to develop your spirituality but you can do it in a way that acknowledges your special contributions and abilities. Focus on YOU and don't worry about how that looks to anyone else especially some religious organization who only wants to use and exploit your good nature and willingness to help. Cultivate an understanding of what it is that makes you happy instead of relying upon external feedback and direction to decide that for you. I hope this helps.
Yes Bagpipes I have had exactly that happen to me. I have told this story before but I will again in hoping it will help you.
I left twi in 86. There was no exway sites like this at the time and I knew know one else that had exited twi to talk to. Every year since atleast twice a year I would have twi thoughts that just bombarded me all day long. I don't know what triggered them. I would just wake up one morning and BAM there were those thoughts that lasted all day and every minute of the day. I too went on with life and could laugh and smile during those days. Then I found WayDale and found out what happened at twi and felt vindicated in why I left twi. The one thing is........I still had those days.
It was not till last year that I posted about what was happening to me here on GSC. People were wonderful to me as well. It is nice to know that people really care.
I talked to one person about this problem last March. I mean I let it all out. I have not had one of those days since. I am so glad for the people here because I know after one of those days I was just so drained.
May I suggest............You have been out a short time and are having a hard time at times. Time will heal a lot of these wounds. The way brain will start going away. I don't know if you have been PM'ing anyone here or if you feel you can trust anyone with your heart yet. If you have met a person here that will listen and understand I would PM them and ask if there is a way that you could exchange phone numbers. I really think it would help you if you could contact a persn that has been in twi. Someone who knows how you feel because they were once there themselves.
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Morgan
Have you seen a counselor? Counseling did wonders for me!
I don't know that I let much fall behind in terms of taking care of stuff. But I used to have horrible panick attacks. I learned to breath through them.
I don't think I have any definitive ideas/answers for you, other than checking out counseling. BUT if you can survive 28 years of TWI and then leave, you are a strong person. Somewhere inside you that strength lies and once you see it within yourself, there will be no stopping you from accomplishing whatever you decide you want to.
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Nottawayfer
I was obsessed with those kinds of things when I first left twi after 20 years in. I used to keep GSC minimized on my computer at work. I admit it kept me from getting work done. But it helped me a lot. It allowed me to be angry and work out my frustrations with people who understood where I had been.
People heal at different levels. I think some sort of counseling is great advice. I ended up getting counseling in a divorce care group. Getting out of a cult was similar to getting out of a marriage with the feelings of betrayal, lonliness, and emptiness. I think that helped me to move on quicker than without it.
It doesn't happen over night though. Give yourself time to go through all of the emotions that you need to, and don't feel guilty for being emotional. It's human to do when you experience the things we did.
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likeaneagle
ILB-
Good way to put it...Emotional intrusion...Ive been going thru this since I left in 2000. I spent 17yrs total in TWI...My heart goes out to you...Ususaly most folks say relax and enjoy your..the confusing thing is I thought I was living in freedom all those years until I left..My mind was a seesaw reading thru and sifting thru all that went on without my knowing.....
I dont know where to start on healing..for the last three weeks I felt like a huge failure. Then some realy good stuff happened at work today...my heart just smiled..I realized God hasnt forsaken me and he does know my heart....I felt so foolish thinking for thinking there must be something in my physical that is wrong or spiritual..I decided today..to work even harder in keeping my mind and heart at peace and see trusting God bigger.....I am single so its harder at times:(
Be patient with yourself and be the good person you are....you are very valuable to those you love...I think giving is still very important....trying to build more goodness in life is never wasted..
hugs!!!!!!!
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Bramble
So many ordinary things became so spiritual in TWi--your sock drawer, what you did the first half hour of the day, what was on top of your fridge--and the consequences were always horrid. Devil spirits in your house, or leadership in your face. There was always some area you knew you were falling short in! Now that fear has left, or is leaving, and you need to find nonTWI reasons to do things. Or don't do them, if they are not important to you.
I don't think there is anything wrong with getting help through counseling, either.
One of the most helpful things we did upon leaving TWI was to return to hobbies and interests we had prior to our TWI involvement, plus find new ones. Things like gardening, cooking, excercise, reading fiction, listening to live music...all those activities took time and had no TWI memories attached to them. We were really living a new life.( I was in twenty years, hubby a little longer.)
Cleaning house was a huge TWI memory maker, yet it has to be done sooner or later. I've found a way that works for me, but it took some time.
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outofdafog
Yes all after all the hoopala of leaving dies down, it can be lonely at times. All of a sudden you are free......hmmm this feels different. I don't have to go anywhere 6 times a week mandatory and I have 10-15% of my income left, and no late night phone calls from the leaders, that you were half scared to answer or sometimes you just didn't
I can make decisions for my own life. I don't even HAVE TO READ THE BIBLE. Oh no oh no, the sky is falling! What Martinpuke said might be true..........All my friends were in the way and now no one will talk to me.
These are the times that I had to remember all the reasons that I left. Once I could wrap my mind around those reasons again....it became easier. For me though, the freedom was so worth working my mind to get over the fear. And yes, my 2 daughters were petrified that we were all going to die because we got marked and avoided. But somewhere deep down in my heart, I just could not fathom God killing us because we left a religious organization. And I was not gonna kiss their butts to be "allowed" back in. Give me liberty any day of the week......
Probably just rambling now but my life is very prosperous now and my children's lives are full and good. It does get better as time goes by.........but hey I kept Waydale on my screen too in order to get my healing fix for the first few weeks. No harm in that. Thank God there was a place for all of us to meet up again and discuss all of this. Still to this day, after 6 years, I find myself freaking for a sec if I decide to take a different route home one night from work. I find myself stretched out in front of Lifetime movies all day sundays still in my pajamas, a small twinge of guilt but then it goes right by. I deserve a day to rest and do whatever the heck I want. It's okay to take care of you
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Belle
It's only been just over a year for me and I still have those moments. I highly recommend counselling. If price is an issue, find one that will work for pro bono - there are some who do that. There is also community counselling available for a smaller price and some therapists will work within your budget. Mine is covered by my insurance and I only have to pay a copay. Depending on my budget I will go every week or once a month. If I could afford it, I'd definitely go every week.
Like you, Bagpipes, just when I think I'm handling everything just fine, I have a meltdown. I had one on Friday and Saturday, in fact. I got free tickets to Daytona for the Kissable 300 and the Daytona 500 - THE DAYTONA 500!! THE race of NASCAR!! One of my all time favorite sports!
After all the excitement of getting the tickets really sunk in, I realized I didn't have anyone I could call to go to the races with me. I lost all my "friends" when I left TWI. I realize they weren't "real" friends to begin with, but, still I was all alone with not one person I could call to get excited with me and to make the jaunt over to Daytona. I called a couple of co-workers, but neither of them could go and one's not all that into NASCAR anyway. The other co-workers I would have called I couldn't because I didn't have their phone numbers, since we're not really "friends" outside of work. I went all by myself on Saturday and had a good time, but not as much fun as I would have had if I'd have had a friend to go with. On Sunday, I just didn't go because I didn't want to go by myself. I stayed home, watched on tv and had a pity party.
Stupid little things like that really get to me. Other times it'll be something someone says that's totally unrelated to tWI, but it jars something in my memory and I just snap. You've gotten some great advice on here and they are things I've found helpful, too.
My mother thinks GSpot has been a Godsend and feels like she owes so many people on here so much for helping me. My therapist thinks I spend too much time on here and it's a replacement for the cult. I've never really spent much time away from here, so maybe I should back off a bit.
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I Love Bagpipes
Thanks for the responses. Its helps me remember that this too shall pass.
I thought today after I posted, "It is like I am self absorbed. I've been "here" before, when I was getting well. (note: I suffered from chronic illness for over 25 years.) I'd be self absorbed when symptoms would flare. Hmmmm...what did I do then? I told myself, 'It's understandable.' "
I'd handle it different ways at different times. Sometimes I'd see a doctor of some sort. Sometimes I'd exercise. I'd journal a lot. Sometimes I'd talk. Sometimes I'd watch a show/movie. Sometimes I'd play a musical instrument or draw. Sometimes I'd cook. Sometimes I'd even embrace the symptoms and not fight them, but sort of allow them to run the course..to get out of me. Today I think posting my problem helped me: to clarify and to know that someone out there would care enough to respond. (I've found a new help aid!!!! Maybe I should start a blog....
)
Back to your responses:
Thank you all for the encouragement regarding counseling. I've had much counseling the past 6 years with the health issues I've dealt with. I have two pyshcologists I am close with and that know me well...they have helped me tremendously in overcoming the illnesses with which I dealt. I've seen them each during this exodus journey. It has been some help, but not as much as GSC or CFF or other folks I've connected with along the way. There is a bond, an understanding, that goes beyond words...I guess like the divorce support group. I thought that a unique approach Wayfernot.
Thank you Morgan for reminding my of the strength within.
Likeaneagle I also thought of giving today after I posted..when I thought of the self absorbed thingee. I was gonna go shopping and make a big supper for the fam...but my back went out. But at least I got the shopping done and we ate soup and grilled cheese. :)
Funny Bramble and Outofdafog I thought about that performance based stuff too after I posted. I thought, "Hell, maybe all this stuff (responsiblities) are not all I make them out to be. Lighten up. The bills are paid; the sheets are clean; we have food and clothes and warmth; God smiles on me." I can look at GSC as one of my hobbies for now; instead of looking at is as being self absorbed. It will run its course and I'll move on to some other obsession.
Or maybe GSC can be a way I can help others later on.
Belle thanks for your empathy and oh I know the loneliness feeling. My heart goes out to you. I felt lonely inside TWI..and I felt a hypocrite. I told myself after I left, "Well at least now I feel only lonely instead of lonely and a hypocrite." I've been blessed to connect with folks within an hour and so drive and much of that lonliness is gone. In fact I connected with folks yesterday who I haven't seen in 10 years!! I had a grand reunion. I literally stayed gone all day (10:00 am until 10:00 pm). (I WILL NOT FEEL GUILTY about taking that time to help mend relationships of 10 years past. It's IMPORTANT. Isn't it?) My prayers are with you too Belle. GSC chat has helped my loneliness at times also.
So...thank again. I'm feeling better. Maybe this chunk is about to crumble....and the next chunk will come along. Well...bring it on!
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ChasUFarley
Bagpipes - You remind me of myself when I left.
The best thing you can do is share, connect, and allow yourself to be HUMAN - FINALLY.
God equipped you with emotions - TWI taught us how to bottle them up. Breaking free from the bondage of TWI is one step - one day - one post - one thread - at a time. The more distance you place between yourself and TWI, the healthier you will be. You are headed in the right direction - you are greiving a loss - no different than with a divorce or death. Next, you will heal. It's a cycle, but a gradual one. Don't look for ways to measure it - remember growth without compulsion - just be.
Hugs to you and welcome to freedom!
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Nottawayfer
It is soo important to have friends. Some people did have friends outside twi before they left. I had one. I met her while I was in, and I never witnessed to her. Thank God! She was a wonderful shoulder to lean on and a great friend to lend an ear. She worked at Ethan Allen, so I went to many work parties with her and met other people also.
I also made friends at a small group from the church where I attended divorce care. It was refreshing to be around others who loved God without the cult mentality.
Had I not gone to church, I would have found a hobby which allowed me to meet others. It is sometimes just too hard to be alone when you first leave.
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dmiller
I never did the counseling route, but I had my music hobby
that I threw myself into pretty intensely for a while there. That helped me a lot,
cause my ex and I split up right about the same time, so I was really on my own!
Yea -- for me it was finding new ways of keeping busy, work, etc.
It did take a (little) while, but eventually my new life did emerge. :)
Yer right -- GSC is unique with all the understanding folks have of your problems
(before you mention much about them), since they went through the same things.
Always feel free to ask things here. Plenty of free advice,
(as you've already found out)! ;)
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George Aar
Bagpiper,
I haven't posted much on GS, but when I first found WayDale, uh, I was a rather regular contributor.
I didn't realize it at the time, but that was some of the best therapy I could ever have found.
I said all the nasty, ugly, (and, unfortunately TRUE) things I'd been thinking about WayWorld for years. I got it all off my chest. Day after day, I just unloaded. All the resentments, pet peeves, anxieties, broken dreams, unpleasant realizations, wasted years and resources, I let it all out. And after all that I DID feel better. I really did.
WayWorld was/is an unspeakable evil. They are a sinister, $hi++y little cult that exists ENTIRELY to serve the whims of it's leadership. An inbred, introverted, insular, self-serving, disgusting clutch of closed-minded, judgemental jerk-offs.
After spending 28 YEARS in such a dispicable outfit, it's no wonder you're having some issues after leaving. Give yourself a break. Do things for yourself for a change. Follow YOUR dreams for awhile. Find out what you really like, what your real abilities and interests are. And above all, take a break from Bible talk for a bit. If there really is a God, He can wait for awhile while you get your bearings again.
And if you think you could use a therapist, you should know that a lot a them WILL negotiate their rate, especially if they know you'll be paying cash, and may not have insurance. I'm not entirely sure mine did me any good (I was going to her for an entirely different reason), but, a lot of folks claim it was a life saver. You can always quit if it doesn't do it for you.
So, my advice? Post A LOT. Get if all off your chest. Say all the things you've only dreamed of saying before. Tell off all the boneheads at HQ and elsewhere. It's REALLY cheap therapy (God knows WayDale saved me a small fortune in "shrink" time).
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skyrider
Absolutely......post away. :)
When I exited twi after 24 years of involvement......lcm and co. started their character assassination scheme against me and my spouse. Our crime?? We no longer wanted any more corps assignments; we no longer wanted to move from place to place at their beckoned whim. Finally, the time had arrived for us to stake our claim in OUR lives, OUR future.
Yeah....it was tough to leave our "friends" but NOT the corporate-hyped "household of twi." All of that garbage of crossing over the bridge to the promised land was childish-play games of pretend. Yep, the time had arrived. We opened the door.........and walked away.
When Waydale came onboard in April of 1999......what a Godsend. It was so refreshing and reassurring to see so many others with similar views. The information was current. Month after month, other corps leaders were quiting......and telling their stories. By mid-1999 and 2000, six or seven region coordinators packed it in and split from twi. Things were happening at a fast pace. The Allen lawsuit was filed. And, martindale was ousted as per the advice from twi's lawyers.
Here at GS.......more of the same. Lots of insight and advice and sparring. Differing points of view are refreshing. And, if identities were known around here..............heck, I probably know a good number of the corps folk here.
So, Bagpipes.....hang in there and enjoy the rebirth of freedom and relaxation. And, journey onward with a knowingness and peace of a veteran traveler.
May God strengthen your every step. :)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I tend to see GSC as the internet equvilant to AA/Alanon meetings."Hi!.My name is Thomas and I used to belong to The Way International. Hi, Thomas."
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outandabout
outofdafog:
"I find myself stretched out in front of Lifetime movies all day sundays still in my pajamas, a small twinge of guilt but then it goes right by".
Right on, me too. Lifetime for Women movies! ("Deceived" "My Lover was Evil" "Deceit and Murder" "Poisonous Love" and the like)
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rascal
Lol Hi Thomas, my name is Cathy and I was in a cult....
hee hee
Pipes, one of the big things that helped me after leaving was to develope some new interests entirely non bible related ... began to find *me* again....the one that wasn`t allowed to exist in twi.
As you explore your interests...you will find friends and balance....as you explore your interests you will start to remember the things that you once enjoyed but were told were unimportant.
Here are some suggestions that we enjoyed.... community theatre.... volunteering at the humane society....church groups....bowling leagues..... dog training classes....art classes.....it doesn`t matter WHAT it is....just stretch yourself in another direction.
I have met my dearest friend in karate class....our children are friends and we have struggled to study karate and grappled with the issues of raising our teens for nearly 5 years together now....I have found that sense of belonging and purpose in reaching our ultimate goal.
I have a terrific friend that I train horses with....I met her while caring for an elderly neighbors stock when she was injured.....one of the dearest and most compassionate women that I have met.
The point is, you will find that companionship in the most suprising and unforseen places....it will just take some time and patience...those *instant* friends and family in twi were rarely genuine.
Belle, I remember the cold bleak feeling of being alone after we left....I cried out to God for a friend...at the time I thought I would never have anyone to care about me again....I was so alone.....
It just took some time is all....true friends ... the ones that last a life time....the ones that will stick with you through your triumphs and your struggles.....take time and investment....
You guys are still very new out.... still getting your bearings....do not feel guilty for posting, that is carry over from twi....it is the best way to get this stuff out in the open and deal with it.....
Besides, I have made some pretty damned good friends right here in these forums.
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ex10
Hey pipes. I think the preoccupation you mentioned is pretty normal. And yes, I promise you, it too will pass.
You spent alot of years not talking much about what was really going on in your life. With other way friends, I mean. The "silence" has been deafening, no?
Just give yourself permission to spend some time regrouping, reconnecting, recognizing, recollecting, reconciling, whatever it is you need, to get back to loving your life, and being there for your beloved ones.
And don't feel guilty. You haven't done anything wrong.
Love and hugs.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Recovering from twi is sorta like recovering from a broken thumb (I had a broken thumb)...
...At first, it seems like the thing will never quit hurting...and then one day, you realize that it just doesn't hurt anymore...it takes some time...be patient and kind to yourself. :)
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I Love Bagpipes
Quadruple plus thanks again.
I'm just having a tough month. Before I initially left (end of Ocotber) I was nervous, scared, that kind of stuff. When I "officially" left I was relieved. (Someone in CFF was a great help through all this..and still is.) After about a week or so I felt very alone. Then I read alot and absorbed so much about grace and mercy, that I don't have to live up to some god awful freaking standard in order for God to be pleased with me. I got lots of healing...my heart was getting healed. The hole in my soul was disappearing. I even had a few friends join me (in December and January) in my exit.
And now I'm sort of stuck. This recent "chunk" has been hanging around too long. I think I'm angry and a little confused. I'm not motivated to do much of anything. I have suffered from the depths of depression before; but this isn't that. However it probably is mild depression. I do not want to stuff it; I want to allow it to surface and then release it. I know what I "should" do..the steps of self care to take. But I'm not even much motivated to do those. I saw one of my docs today and that helped some. I have thought a GSC fast might be good for me....but then I'm sort of afraid I'll stop the process, the process of allowing myself to feel this "stuff" so that I can release it.
I have been trying to connect with "dreams" and "desires" for over a year...and have come up flat time after time. The closest I've come is to leave TWI!!!!
I hope I don't sound too dreary. I still laugh and play. But I'm really good this month at neglecting responsibilities. I've thought that maybe I should go spend a week in the woods somewhere...except that it is February.
Ex10 you hit something on the head when you wrote, "the silence has been deafening. No?" I cry when I write that. Maybe I just want to be noticed, heard, acknowledged. And I've gotten that here at GSC. I've also gotten it from other folks too. But maybe so many years of that deafening silence hurts deeper than I want to acknowledge. I'm trying to hold it together and maybe I need to let it fall apart. Oh, why does it hurt so much? (That's a rhetorical question.)
Well I'm hesitant to posts this reply. But I'm going to post it anyway. Thanks to all of you folkies!
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skyrider
(((((Bagpipes)))))
Hang in there.....and spend time with quality friends as much as possible.
Yeah....for me, twi betrayal was one of the worst realizations. All of those years of service, of loss opportunity, of bringing others to twi.......and it all goes down in One Mighty THUD.
Keep dreaming.....and when you get the chance to dance........dance.
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rascal
Pipes, we go through different stages in our recovery.....it is truly like losing a family member to death or suffering through a viscious divorce.
Many times you will grieve, be angry, mourn your loss, all different emotions experienced at different satges of recovery.
You have been in a major battle for your life. You have spent years in survival mode, years thinking, planning, finally the drama of escape....the fears accompanied with leaving, the battle to understand what went wrong....
Now that all of the turmoil has had time to die down....maybe you don`t know what to do with all of that energy needed to survive and escape.
You do not have someone saying that you need to do a b c anymore....you aren`t getting together classes or preparing for fellowship ...
This is hard to explain......but when I left...I was miserable and scared because I didn`t know how I was going to know where God wanted me or what he needed me to do... There were no more classes to recruit people for or events to plan for.
I no longer had my sense of self worth...that measuring stick utilized in twi....who CARED if I was a 2x wow vet....who CARED if I was corpes spouse....nobody knew or cared what classes I have had....
It is all very complicated, even harder to describe.....but we have been through some life altering changes.....it takes time to sort them all out.....
Feeling guilty for doing things we enjoy, or that we must remain*disciplined* or that in doing the things benefitial we are neglecting *responsibilities* is carry over from our twi days.
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oldiesman
I was participating in twi events for 19 years, but at various times during those 19 years, I chose not to participate, so I know what it is like to depart and what that feels like as I felt it more than once.
Do you still believe in speaking in tongues? The best advice I can give you is to ask God to help you. When I feel consumed with trouble ... among other things I pray in tongues much, and also with my understanding, casting those cares on God. SIT is a continuous comfort for me.
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Tom Strange
Pipes, I got out early (in the early 80's) however, my sister and her husband and family are still very much in (leaders)... so I too was alone... there was no GSC, no family (because my sister was still in) to turn to... just sort of finding my way on my own... but you know what? ...just keep on going doing whatever you need to do, I know that sounds simple, but it's all you can do... as others have said, see a counselor if you wish, post here if you wish...
I think you'll find that no matter what you post here there is probably someone who has gone through the same thing or similar...
What I do know is that (whether you know it or not now) you've been 'putting yourself second' (or third) for some time now, that's what TWI conditions you to do BUT you will continue to blossom out of that mind set... things that are 'normal' to most humans aren't immediately normal to you... yet... but they will be... TWI conditioned us all to feel guilty when we did something for ourselves... for no other reason except that we wanted to do it... what kind of freedom is that? That's just one of the lies that we all bought into at one time or another... one of the neatest things that will happen to you is when you finally realize that it's not 'wrong' to do something for yourself... even if it's just 'laying around watching movies on Lifetime'...
A lot of us put TWIs agenda ahead of our own hopes, dreams and aspirations but now you have the chance to take them back... enjoy life every chance you get... sometimes the 'purpose' or 'profit' of doing something is just for yourself... and there's nothing at all wrong with that...
Take your life and enjoy in whatever way you wish... and don't feel guilty about it... be happy... you're like a blossoming flower now... you're not going to go from a bud to a full bloom in one day, but you will get to full bloom... you will... you had years of conditioning by TWI that got you to where you are... you're now taking back your life and you'll be a beautiful bloom here at the GSC and where ever else you go...
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diazbro
My take is that God gave us intellectual capacity so he would fully expect us to use this. Not necessarily as a substitute for a spiritual relationship but because it is important for us to know the problems which faced wise men and women throughout history. We get perspective and wisdom from this that we can apply in our own lives. Furthermore I feel that education is very important not only in terms of enhancing your employability but your general knowledge as well. For example once I pursued studies at an accredited institution I learned about philosophy, history, literature, math, and science and so on. I was amazed at how mind blowing this experience was. Of course one need not go back to school to experience this, just pursue a passion and explore it. See while I was in TWI they wanted to be your only source for education and they typically disparaged the concept of college education calling it "worldy knowledge". In reality the college experience was competition for the various Way programs and classes so they knew that if you were serious about school you wouldn't have time for TWI.
Lots of people who went in TWI had to put their talents and career interests on hold to fulfill the expectations of TWI. TWI was supposed to serve and empower us but it wound up being the other way around. There was no time for us to become individuals and develop our respective talents. TWI robbed many people of that experience. Sure, they talked a big game about "Word in culture" and about how individuals were called to accomplish some functio within the body but that was just lip service. All they wanted from anyone was for you to sit down and shut up and accept as truth any thing that a leader said. Forget about you, your individuality, your gifts and talents. TWI owns you and thats that. If you are living in Bakersfield , Cali today and TWI wants you to move to LaCrosse Wisconson by the end of next week , thats what you will do. They wouldn't give a flip if you had made good friends or you had started thinking about signing up for a creative writing course at the local college. Just pack it up and go. Way leaders would go "Creative writing ? Why would you waste time on something like that ? Besides, many authors are homosexuals".
In any case I endorse an experience where you open yourself up to the avenues of learning that weren't possible to pursue while you were in TWI. Maybe its painting, sculpting, writing, starting a construction business, going back to school , or whatever. Don't sit around waiting for another felllowship or religious experience to snap you out of it. Its certainly good to develop your spirituality but you can do it in a way that acknowledges your special contributions and abilities. Focus on YOU and don't worry about how that looks to anyone else especially some religious organization who only wants to use and exploit your good nature and willingness to help. Cultivate an understanding of what it is that makes you happy instead of relying upon external feedback and direction to decide that for you. I hope this helps.
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justloafing
QUOTE(I Love Bagpipes @ Feb 20 2006, 05:11 PM) *
Did any of you have difficulty with consumed preoccupation with all this STUFF? Could you share practical hints on how you handled it? blink.gif
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes Bagpipes I have had exactly that happen to me. I have told this story before but I will again in hoping it will help you.
I left twi in 86. There was no exway sites like this at the time and I knew know one else that had exited twi to talk to. Every year since atleast twice a year I would have twi thoughts that just bombarded me all day long. I don't know what triggered them. I would just wake up one morning and BAM there were those thoughts that lasted all day and every minute of the day. I too went on with life and could laugh and smile during those days. Then I found WayDale and found out what happened at twi and felt vindicated in why I left twi. The one thing is........I still had those days.
It was not till last year that I posted about what was happening to me here on GSC. People were wonderful to me as well. It is nice to know that people really care.
I talked to one person about this problem last March. I mean I let it all out. I have not had one of those days since. I am so glad for the people here because I know after one of those days I was just so drained.
May I suggest............You have been out a short time and are having a hard time at times. Time will heal a lot of these wounds. The way brain will start going away. I don't know if you have been PM'ing anyone here or if you feel you can trust anyone with your heart yet. If you have met a person here that will listen and understand I would PM them and ask if there is a way that you could exchange phone numbers. I really think it would help you if you could contact a persn that has been in twi. Someone who knows how you feel because they were once there themselves.
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