ckm, no offense intended, but "knowledge of the word" is what got everybody in trouble to start with.
"Knowledge of the word"without a relationship with Jesus causes no end of pain and heartache. I think that's why we witnessed the train wreck of the way, inc.
I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM
Feel free to do so yourself, but exposing what Wierwille and Martindale and TWI in general did is part of the purpose of GS. I intend to continue to stay on the subject while keeping things in perspective and not becoming hysterical about it.
but we should do as the bible says to do .
Like when Jesus called the Pharisees whited sepulchres? Or when Paul mentioned that someone (I forget who) did much evil? But you're talking about all that love and forgivenes stuff, right?
The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things.
Go for it. Many GSers do believe the bible, some don't.
We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it.
No, we don't NEED to do that. Whether one agrees with "the Word" that was taught in TWI or not, the actions of it's leaders is relevant. It doesn't chnage the truth (if any) that was taught, but it's fair game.
I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians
Anything wrong with the rest of the bible?
and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
God Bless,
ckmckeon
So what's stopping you? Some folks here have started fellowships, and are teaching everything they know to the best of their ability.
ckmckeon, stick around, see what this place is all about; don't just be a drive-by poster
I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM but we should do as the bible says to do . The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
God Bless,
ckmckeon
While you're here at Greasespot, ckmckeon........you might want to check out the Open Forum, or the Doctrinal Forum, or the Just Plain Silly Forum, or Friend Tracker, etc. etc. etc.
Of course, if you cater to the About The Way forum........the discussions are going to encompass things like twi, vpw, lcm, rfr, bot, etc. Not to hard to figure things out around here.
Are you trying to hide the wierwille legacy of abuse and plagerism?
As Skyrider pointed out there are several forums to choose from here. This forum "About the Way" is where folks discsuss things such as VPW, LCM, ROR etc. You may want to check out the doctrinal section where folks discuss the Bible.
What folks who post here have in common is that they were all involved with TWI at one time or maybe still are. But you'll find that there are many different opinions here. Some posters are agnostic or atheists, some here have found different religions and don't believe in the Bible as you might. Many of us still believe the Bible but no longer believe that everything TWI taught was biblically accurate. So don't be surprised when some disagree with your views.
Anyway, please take some time to read the various forums and posts and introduction to GSCafe to become familiar with it, then find the forums that best suits your likes. Maybe doctrinal or open. And don't be shy, come on back and join in the convesations.
Welcome! I think I understand your desire to just want to "hear" the Word. After I officially left the ministry, I wanted to do that, too. There are many places available if that is your desire. And, as others have suggested, the Doctrinal forum here is a great place to have open discussions about the Bible. There are many people who post here who are very well educated and articulate in voicing their beliefs.
What happens on the rest of Greasespot is a discussion of how the doctrinal practices of the Way resulted in the harm to people's lives. It is designed to allow people who have been out to have a place to heal. It is a place to allow people in who may want out to get information that has been withheld from them. And it is a place for people wanting to get in to be forewarned so they can make an educated decison.
If the Word is "burning in your heart" I'm sure your viewpoint would be welcome. But please be understanding of those of us who want to "burn the garbage out", and therefore need to be here for that purpose.
Hi ckmckeon and God bless..unfortunately you won't find much Word here, if you're still into the Word (like some of us) you can try logging onto Rafs 'Living Epistles Society' or Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer at www.cffm.org.
On the forums here you'll quickly pick up who are still into the Word and others who are..well..shall we say...NOT !
The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
God Bless,
ckmckeon
A hearty and sincere welcome to CkMkeon!
You'll find that the range of folks here is as wide as "I don't believe in God, His Word, or that anything good came out of twi" all the way to those who are thankful for some of what they experienced, and dont' totally hate LCM or VPW. Its a wide range, but glad to have you a part of it!
Actually, Mrs. Patriot and I do run a loving, growing, hot Bible fellowship in our home. We are still committed to spreading the Word to the world, so it may be presumptuous to assume no one on GSC does. And yes, I also agree that the Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry. Unfortunately, The Way International does not subscribe to that thinking, nor has it. Maybe direct that line to them
Where do you think we got this concept of "Man of God for Our Time?" You may laugh, but I saw VERY close up that what LCM said, was considered "Present Truth" and therefore "The Word to our Time." Don't think so? Then ask those still in:
1. Was there actually a holocost in WWII? Or was this "the myth of the 6 million?" as VPW and LCM taught?
2. The first Gulf War (Desert Storm), what was the real reason we went? Was it "To Protect Israel." as LCM
(MOGFOT) taught at the AC Special in NC? How many still in still automatically believe that?
3. How many Staff pulled their kids out of the local little league because LCM demanded they do so since his
son was picked by a former TWI clergyman's team? Answer - all but one!
4. How many Staff and Way Corps immediately changed their investments because one lunch LCM shared
about how you should invest with companies that you believe in, and who are local, and who help the
ministry. How many sold their mutual funds since they couldn't guarantee "they believed" in all the
companies the fund owned?
Don't get me started. Why would people think and take these actions? Because their LEADER told them,
and therefore it was the Word to obey. Yeah, I too would rather have it from Romans. If the current BOD would have come outright and said openly, that what was done, and how LCM did it was wrong, I doubt there would be as much wind in the sails of the good ship GSC. Kinder & gentler without intrusiveness? Then they should say it publicly! That would be revolutionary! Since they will never apologize or admit to the evil that happened, I thank God for freedom of the Press, to assemble, and of speech!
I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM but we should do as the bible says to do . The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
God Bless,
ckmckeon
Let me read this back to you to see if I got it. Lets forget all about the evil that TWI and its leaders perpetrated on people and focus on "the word" which apprarently only includes the books of Romans through Thessalonians. I suppose we can junk the rest because after all its not really written to us. But since we can do "all things" its all good. And then it gets better, we'll have a fellowship ,maybe even call it a Twig, so we can teach what we know. Is this right ? And lets "leave the leaders out of it" ? I bet the the "Word even interprets itself" and in places it does't we can certainly force it. Interesting concepts there. Gee. Where would I have heard these ideas before ?
Now I loook at who is saying when where and just how and could care less if the fact a chapter and verse is involved.
I love the bible I will even say I hold true to the wisdom within in my life and consider it important and worthy.
Yet I will not use the bible as bullet or a weapon to hurt any other being.
so many many times that is how bible verses are used and I will say I have never understood what this term "word" means exactly.
In twi it met what some leader thought about something with some bible verse maybe put in at a distance..
Who knows Gods word? who? really? prove it. it can not be proved any more than if or if there is a God or ten.
bible verses are one thing and they leave alot of to be desired what with thousands of different versions written today.
The "word" I have no clue . I am not so arrogant as to think I have some inner voice speaking the mircle of right living in my ear and if I did truly I would not be so stupid as to admit it aloud to be given some heavy duty drugs to erase the mental illnes such thinking is in the catergory of .
Hi ckmckeon and God bless..unfortunately you won't find much Word here, if you're still into the Word (like some of us) you can try logging onto Rafs 'Living Epistles Society' or Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer at www.cffm.org.
On the forums here you'll quickly pick up who are still into the Word and others who are..well..shall we say...NOT !
In the interest of full disclosure...I'm one of the ones who are NOT.
But seriously, like allan said, if you're looking for "The Word", there are other places to get it, in various forms. The purpose of GS is not, nor has it ever been, to promote any form of religion...but to "provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
We want people to be able to make informed decisions regarding their past, present, and future affiliations with The Way International (TWI). Whether you are standing with TWI, thinking about leaving, trying to help someone else get out, or looking for support from others who have left, we believe the information here is highly relevant and well worth considering."
1Cr 8:1b "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
1Cr 8:2 If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
1Cr 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Cr 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Cr 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
1Cr 13:5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
1Cr 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
1Cr 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
TWI claimed to be very good with "knowledge" -- (they weren't as good as they thought, not hardly) -- but somewhere in there they lost the most important thing. Love.
Consequently, if you would like to do as the Word instructs, walk in love.
No But I believe that the scriptures from Romans to Thessalonians were written directly to us as Dr.Wierwille says but I think all of the bible is good.
"So what's stopping you? Some folks here have started fellowships, and are teaching everything they know to the best of their ability."
I have but I am trying to inspire others who have no fellowship
on the list for links you can find much fellowship and web sites, I think anyone who haswanted fellowship like twi can go ot one of the many offshoots.
check it out Spirit and Truth is getting HUGE formaly CES.
I am curious....since you seem to have your finger in our faces.......why would or should I start a fellowship in your opinion ckmkeon? Seriously, is that something that God calls/rquires desires of each of us?
Is that what makes one rightious and spiritual in God`s book these days? Will I be a better Christian than those who don`t run a fellowship? Will I get special blessings?
I ask because I wonder if we run fellowship because God really needs us to, or because it is what we have always done and are conditioned to feel comfortable that way.
I am not so arrogant as to think I have some inner voice speaking the mircle of right living in my ear and if I did truly I would not be so stupid as to admit it aloud to be given some heavy duty drugs to erase the mental illnes such thinking is in the catergory of .
ROFLMAO!!!! You crack me up, mj!! Mind if I remind you of this on all the other threads where you've posted?
1Cr 8:1b "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
1Cr 8:2 If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
1Cr 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Cr 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Cr 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
1Cr 13:5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
1Cr 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
1Cr 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
TWI claimed to be very good with "knowledge" -- (they weren't as good as they thought, not hardly) -- but somewhere in there they lost the most important thing. Love.
Consequently, if you would like to do as the Word instructs, walk in love.
FWIW
I don't know but it looks like 11 verses to consider
Bacause that is what I was taught the whole bible is very important from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21
The Dcotrine for us is in Romans through Thessalonians when you start in Romans you have how to be saved in Romans 10:9,10 when you get to Thessalonians it shows the Hope of Jesus Christ return that is why I think the whole bible is important but that goes without saying the old testament and the gospels were also very good
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ex10
ckm, no offense intended, but "knowledge of the word" is what got everybody in trouble to start with. "Knowledge of the word"without a relationship with Jesus causes no end of pain and heartache. I
pond
I have thought this way before as well. Well if the "word" says it then lets just do it. Now I loook at who is saying when where and just how and could care less if the fact a chapter and ver
lindyhopper
As far as I know, the bird is still the word. If it has changed please let me know.
dmiller
ckmkeon --- I hear that. :)
Many here are finding their way, without leaders (like we used to know),
and are doing quite well. ;)
Welcome to GreaseSpot (by the way) ---
the old regime, (and it's *leader's*) are discussed here frequently.
And I don't think there will ever be any getting around that.
David
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ex10
ckm, no offense intended, but "knowledge of the word" is what got everybody in trouble to start with.
"Knowledge of the word"without a relationship with Jesus causes no end of pain and heartache. I think that's why we witnessed the train wreck of the way, inc.
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dmiller
I used to think like that, but these days I would say ~~~
Start in Genesis, and end in Revelation.
It is (after all) one book. :)
Genesis 1:1, and John 3:16, and Eph. 3:20, and Revelation 1:3
are all important to me ~~~ I would be remiss were I to toss any of them out.
Focusing on the church admin. is ok, but it's not the whole picture.
(But that's me)
And thanks for the God bless. :)
Back at'cha with the same. ;)
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George Aar
O.K. , so believe the bible then - bring about world peace, put an end to suffering, hunger, and want. And bring joy to everyone.
I'll watch...
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Oakspear
ckmckeon, stick around, see what this place is all about; don't just be a drive-by poster
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skyrider
While you're here at Greasespot, ckmckeon........you might want to check out the Open Forum, or the Doctrinal Forum, or the Just Plain Silly Forum, or Friend Tracker, etc. etc. etc.
Of course, if you cater to the About The Way forum........the discussions are going to encompass things like twi, vpw, lcm, rfr, bot, etc. Not to hard to figure things out around here.
Are you trying to hide the wierwille legacy of abuse and plagerism?
Read Matthew 23. Start there.
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Outin88.
Hi ckmkeon,
Welcome to Greasespotcafe!
As Skyrider pointed out there are several forums to choose from here. This forum "About the Way" is where folks discsuss things such as VPW, LCM, ROR etc. You may want to check out the doctrinal section where folks discuss the Bible.
What folks who post here have in common is that they were all involved with TWI at one time or maybe still are. But you'll find that there are many different opinions here. Some posters are agnostic or atheists, some here have found different religions and don't believe in the Bible as you might. Many of us still believe the Bible but no longer believe that everything TWI taught was biblically accurate. So don't be surprised when some disagree with your views.
Anyway, please take some time to read the various forums and posts and introduction to GSCafe to become familiar with it, then find the forums that best suits your likes. Maybe doctrinal or open. And don't be shy, come on back and join in the convesations.
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pond
the question of what happened to "the word" is the ONE that bothers me the most.
because of twi and some of the offshoots and some churches this "word" you speak of can become a frightening awful hurtful thing.
even today I would probably not want to teach with all the confusion and back tracking and just plain dumb stuff I have heard about bible verses.
the bible is a difficult book to get. ask ten people get ten answers type of stuff.
I have seeen more damge done to Gods precious souls with interperations of it than any other thing in my life.
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topoftheworld
CKM,
Welcome! I think I understand your desire to just want to "hear" the Word. After I officially left the ministry, I wanted to do that, too. There are many places available if that is your desire. And, as others have suggested, the Doctrinal forum here is a great place to have open discussions about the Bible. There are many people who post here who are very well educated and articulate in voicing their beliefs.
What happens on the rest of Greasespot is a discussion of how the doctrinal practices of the Way resulted in the harm to people's lives. It is designed to allow people who have been out to have a place to heal. It is a place to allow people in who may want out to get information that has been withheld from them. And it is a place for people wanting to get in to be forewarned so they can make an educated decison.
If the Word is "burning in your heart" I'm sure your viewpoint would be welcome. But please be understanding of those of us who want to "burn the garbage out", and therefore need to be here for that purpose.
Keep looking. You'll find what you need.
Top
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allan w.
Hi ckmckeon and God bless..unfortunately you won't find much Word here, if you're still into the Word (like some of us) you can try logging onto Rafs 'Living Epistles Society' or Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer at www.cffm.org.
On the forums here you'll quickly pick up who are still into the Word and others who are..well..shall we say...NOT !
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rascal
Yes, it IS pattently obvious whom God/Daddy likes best around here
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Patriot
The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that
. Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
God Bless,
ckmckeon
A hearty and sincere welcome to CkMkeon!
You'll find that the range of folks here is as wide as "I don't believe in God, His Word, or that anything good came out of twi" all the way to those who are thankful for some of what they experienced, and dont' totally hate LCM or VPW. Its a wide range, but glad to have you a part of it!
Actually, Mrs. Patriot and I do run a loving, growing, hot Bible fellowship in our home. We are still committed to spreading the Word to the world, so it may be presumptuous to assume no one on GSC does. And yes, I also agree that the Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry. Unfortunately, The Way International does not subscribe to that thinking, nor has it. Maybe direct that line to them
Where do you think we got this concept of "Man of God for Our Time?" You may laugh, but I saw VERY close up that what LCM said, was considered "Present Truth" and therefore "The Word to our Time." Don't think so? Then ask those still in:
1. Was there actually a holocost in WWII? Or was this "the myth of the 6 million?" as VPW and LCM taught?
2. The first Gulf War (Desert Storm), what was the real reason we went? Was it "To Protect Israel." as LCM
(MOGFOT) taught at the AC Special in NC? How many still in still automatically believe that?
3. How many Staff pulled their kids out of the local little league because LCM demanded they do so since his
son was picked by a former TWI clergyman's team? Answer - all but one!
4. How many Staff and Way Corps immediately changed their investments because one lunch LCM shared
about how you should invest with companies that you believe in, and who are local, and who help the
ministry. How many sold their mutual funds since they couldn't guarantee "they believed" in all the
companies the fund owned?
Don't get me started. Why would people think and take these actions? Because their LEADER told them,
and therefore it was the Word to obey. Yeah, I too would rather have it from Romans. If the current BOD would have come outright and said openly, that what was done, and how LCM did it was wrong, I doubt there would be as much wind in the sails of the good ship GSC. Kinder & gentler without intrusiveness? Then they should say it publicly! That would be revolutionary! Since they will never apologize or admit to the evil that happened, I thank God for freedom of the Press, to assemble, and of speech!
So we do agree....sort of. Welcome aboard!
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diazbro
Let me read this back to you to see if I got it. Lets forget all about the evil that TWI and its leaders perpetrated on people and focus on "the word" which apprarently only includes the books of Romans through Thessalonians. I suppose we can junk the rest because after all its not really written to us. But since we can do "all things" its all good. And then it gets better, we'll have a fellowship ,maybe even call it a Twig, so we can teach what we know. Is this right ? And lets "leave the leaders out of it" ? I bet the the "Word even interprets itself" and in places it does't we can certainly force it. Interesting concepts there. Gee. Where would I have heard these ideas before ?
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pond
I have thought this way before as well.
Well if the "word" says it then lets just do it.
Now I loook at who is saying when where and just how and could care less if the fact a chapter and verse is involved.
I love the bible I will even say I hold true to the wisdom within in my life and consider it important and worthy.
Yet I will not use the bible as bullet or a weapon to hurt any other being.
so many many times that is how bible verses are used and I will say I have never understood what this term "word" means exactly.
In twi it met what some leader thought about something with some bible verse maybe put in at a distance..
Who knows Gods word? who? really? prove it. it can not be proved any more than if or if there is a God or ten.
bible verses are one thing and they leave alot of to be desired what with thousands of different versions written today.
The "word" I have no clue . I am not so arrogant as to think I have some inner voice speaking the mircle of right living in my ear and if I did truly I would not be so stupid as to admit it aloud to be given some heavy duty drugs to erase the mental illnes such thinking is in the catergory of .
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Oakspear
But seriously, like allan said, if you're looking for "The Word", there are other places to get it, in various forms. The purpose of GS is not, nor has it ever been, to promote any form of religion...but to "provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
We want people to be able to make informed decisions regarding their past, present, and future affiliations with The Way International (TWI). Whether you are standing with TWI, thinking about leaving, trying to help someone else get out, or looking for support from others who have left, we believe the information here is highly relevant and well worth considering."
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markomalley
ckmckeon,
Welcome to GSC.
I have three verses for you to consider:
1Cr 8:1b "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
1Cr 8:2 If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
1Cr 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Cr 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Cr 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
1Cr 13:5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
1Cr 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
1Cr 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
TWI claimed to be very good with "knowledge" -- (they weren't as good as they thought, not hardly) -- but somewhere in there they lost the most important thing. Love.
Consequently, if you would like to do as the Word instructs, walk in love.
FWIW
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ckmkeon
"Anything wrong with the rest of the bible?"
No But I believe that the scriptures from Romans to Thessalonians were written directly to us as Dr.Wierwille says but I think all of the bible is good.
"So what's stopping you? Some folks here have started fellowships, and are teaching everything they know to the best of their ability."
I have but I am trying to inspire others who have no fellowship
God Bless
Ckmckeon
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pond
on the list for links you can find much fellowship and web sites, I think anyone who haswanted fellowship like twi can go ot one of the many offshoots.
check it out Spirit and Truth is getting HUGE formaly CES.
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Oakspear
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rascal
I am curious....since you seem to have your finger in our faces.......why would or should I start a fellowship in your opinion ckmkeon? Seriously, is that something that God calls/rquires desires of each of us?
Is that what makes one rightious and spiritual in God`s book these days? Will I be a better Christian than those who don`t run a fellowship? Will I get special blessings?
I ask because I wonder if we run fellowship because God really needs us to, or because it is what we have always done and are conditioned to feel comfortable that way.
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Belle
mj/pond said:
ROFLMAO!!!! You crack me up, mj!! Mind if I remind you of this on all the other threads where you've posted?
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ckmkeon
I don't know but it looks like 11 verses to consider
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ckmkeon
Bacause that is what I was taught the whole bible is very important
from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21
The Dcotrine for us is in Romans through Thessalonians when you start in Romans you have how to be saved in Romans 10:9,10 when you get to Thessalonians it shows the Hope of Jesus Christ return that is why I think the whole bible is important but that goes without saying the old testament and the gospels were also very good
ckmckeon
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Belle
Do you believe everything you're taught? ;)
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