As an "old timer" we used to hear VPW decades ago say something like:
"The Only reason for the existence of The Way is because the churches are not doing their jobs.!!"
Today I believe that is no longer true. Churches all over America, I believe, ARE doing their job. In my opinion I believe many of them are doing a far better job than The Way.
When I was younger, I never really trusted Churches, yet I had only known the Catholic Church, I never checked out protestant Churches until after leaving TWI. So I really can't say if VPW was correct in his statement;
"The Only reason for the existence of The Way is because the churches are not doing their jobs.!!"
But given the fact that VPW dupped us in so many other areas, I wouldn't be surprised if decieved us with that statement as well.
Irregardless, I agree with you that Churches today are doing a better job then TWI.
I agree with you that Churches today are doing a better job then TWI.
I work in churches all over the country and every church that I go in has things going that I never would have even dreamt about in TWI....classes, activities, community involvement, ministries of all sorts that benefit people in all sorts of circumstances within or outside the church. Small Churches, big churches that have genuine concern that they are doing something to make life better not only for those on the inside but for their communities at large..Its refreshing for me to see christian communities working together in a genuinely christian manner for a change.
I agree. The knock on churches in the 60s and 70s was that they used the fear of hell to keep people from leaving. I saw this first hand in the neighborhood I grew up in. The kid next door was the best athlete in our street. But one Sunday he was just standing in his front yard when this black car pulls up and a pointing finger shot out of the car window at the front door. The kid ran into his house like a bat out of hell. That kid and several others told me I'd go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. That was then; NOBODY seems to be like that now.
I'm still quite comfortable with TWI type fellowships but I'm not afraid to join a church.
As an "old timer" we used to hear VPW decades ago say something like:
"The Only reason for the existence of The Way is because the churches are not doing their jobs.!!"
Today I believe that is no longer true. Churches all over America, I believe, ARE doing their job. In my opinion I believe many of them are doing a far better job than The Way. Among other things, the Internet is a tool they are using to help them do a better job in reaching people with the Gospel.
Yeah, igotout.......like everything else, EXCEPT TWI, churches have advanced in the past 30 years. Today, the churches that I've attended offer a variety of study, support groups, community service, teen involvement, little league baseball, breakfast prayer groups, business luncheons, etc. In all facets of life, lots of churches have really rolled up their sleeves.
But......no longer do I tend to think in terms of twi's "black OR white" statements. Truth is truth.....no matter where you find it. Today's world is so intermeshed with information and involvement that, it seems to me, we've far outpaced vpw's statement.
Along with radio programs and tv evangelism, the internet is a growing source of Bible study and chat rooms. :) And, some of those California churches are pushing out old stereotypes and ushering in new trends and concepts of "church." Bible study groups are EVERYWHERE.
Twi remains frozen in a vpw-pond in a pasture in the middle of nowhere.
Actually, I agreed with the statement at the time. I still agree with the statement, as it pertained to most of the churches that I was familiar with in the '60s and '70s.
My experience was that there was CCD and CYO. You got catechized in CCD and if you were a jock, you could participate in CYO. That was basically it. (Yeah, some parishes had boy scout and girl scout troops, but again that was for a small segment) -- there was virtually NOTHING out there that I saw for HS kids and for college-age kids/young adults. At least, in my experience.
That has changed a lot. It is the norm to have kids, all through their development, involved in one way or another. And that is a good thing. Keeps them 'off the streets at night' and in an, at least somewhat, positive environment. My church has 7 Masses each week (most, even the 7:30 AM Mass, are at least 75% full), they have Bible studies one or two nights a week on various subjects, high school groups, middle school groups, CCD (Sunday School), small group fellowships that meet in the home, young adult groups, various service activities (St. Vincent de Paul Society, Ladies of Charity, Aramatheans, Knights of Columbus, etc., etc.), sponsor a soup kitchen, have an elementary/middle school, provide sponsorship for a High School, and so on. They have a full-time staff of 20 to support about 4,000 parishoners. And the current major effort is on a multimillion dollar capital improvement project to build a community center, so that they can do more. It isn't like what it was 25 years ago, let me tell you...
But, in TWI's favor (at least back in the 'good old days'): TWI, even though it had the faulty doctrine, was loose enough and free enough to keep young folks involved and feeling that they were doing something important. I know when I got involved (somewhat later than you were, to be sure), it was a family environment. Everybody wanted to hang out with each other. You'd watch the game together, go on witnessing trips down to the clubs on Friday and Saturday night, you'd work on each others cars, get together and cook dinner and hang out playing cards, help with the window-washing business of somebody if you had time, etc. It was considered a true blessing to be with one another. It was NOT a matter of obligation, it was a matter of genuinely preferring to associate one with another. And, at least in my experience, we tried to build each other up and walk according to the great commandment: love God and love each other. I know that this wasn't TWI as a whole...but at least it was the way that we were in our neck of the woods.
But that all changed over time, didn't it? What would TWI have for young people these days? They've got to watch their words, watch their actions, watch everything, so as not to get reproved and/or marked and avoided, right? It's a different place now. Are they even allowed to have fun anymore...?
It seems to me that the mainstream churches have, in large measure, gotten the message right finally: love God and love each other. It seems to me that TWI lost that key thing (particularly between individuals).
Your post reminded me of one of the good memories of Catholic Church. In the basement of the church some of the high school kids started a club. For some reason I don't know why, it seems odd as I think about it now but there was a stage already there. Sunday nights from 7:00 till 10:30 they would have dances for the 9th through 12 graders. It was a dark and dingy old church basement with some old furniture and posters that the kids had hauled in. They had local bands play the place was packed each week. Then one day someone got the idea that the music was cracking the plaster in the church upstairs so they shut it down. We used to borrow the overhead projector from the school and stack clear pie pans on top filled with oil and food coloring to light the walls (long before the days of oil projectors.) Hey it worked cheap band lighting 101 it looked like this
When I was a church-going teenager in the late 60's-early 70's, I tend to agree that the churches weren't doing their jobs in the youth programs offered. The Baptist church I belonged to tried to be "groovy" by having the youth choir wear tie-dyed t-shirts while performing "Pass It On"...a musical about spreading the good news of salvation. I'm not knocking that, but it wasn't enough.
Church was still stuffy, the adult's hair was still sprayed helmet-stiff, and there was real suspicion of long-haired young people who listenened to rock music. There was a very real generation gap, and I don't believe the churches did enough to appeal to youth.
I believe many of today's churches offer what was lacking in those days. For me personally, I'm just not interested in group worship anymore.
I guess it depends on what exactly you think the church's "job" is.
Personally, it seems to me the church's job is to make plausible excuses for why reality never lines up with the "promises" of The Word. Basically, to rationalize why God never seems to deliver in the manner advertized.
In that regard I think TWI did a pretty good job. But the churches weren't all that lacking in that department either, from what I could tell...
I guess it depends on what exactly you think the church's "job" is.
Personally, it seems to me the church's job is to make plausible excuses for why reality never lines up with the "promises" of The Word. Basically, to rationalize why God never seems to deliver in the manner advertized.
I have been to several churches that don't seem to do that in the least, including the Russian language church I have been to most frequently.
My problem before TWI was that the church I went to (and a few others I sampled) made just your assumption...that reality and the Bible never (not even once in a while) have any connection. Now for some that idea has appeal, but the churches I refer to above certainly don't waste their time trying to prove that idea wrong.
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Outin88.
When I was younger, I never really trusted Churches, yet I had only known the Catholic Church, I never checked out protestant Churches until after leaving TWI. So I really can't say if VPW was correct in his statement;
"The Only reason for the existence of The Way is because the churches are not doing their jobs.!!"
But given the fact that VPW dupped us in so many other areas, I wouldn't be surprised if decieved us with that statement as well.
Irregardless, I agree with you that Churches today are doing a better job then TWI.
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frank123lol
John,You are right .What convinced me was Family life radio,Mr.Chuck Swindel and a man
named Jeremiah David.Also a old gentleman who has been on the air forever,his wisdom and character
is classic.They by preaching healed alot of open wounds I had when I left twi.
twi said sincerity was no gaurentee for the truth,thus making us distrustful of anything other than twi.
Sincerity by a few goes alot farther than melting someones face off.We have been lied to by twi,I
have met christians outside of twi,that far surpasses anything twi tried to make us into.
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mstar1
I work in churches all over the country and every church that I go in has things going that I never would have even dreamt about in TWI....classes, activities, community involvement, ministries of all sorts that benefit people in all sorts of circumstances within or outside the church. Small Churches, big churches that have genuine concern that they are doing something to make life better not only for those on the inside but for their communities at large..Its refreshing for me to see christian communities working together in a genuinely christian manner for a change.
They're all over the place.
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johniam
quote: What is your view on this?
I agree. The knock on churches in the 60s and 70s was that they used the fear of hell to keep people from leaving. I saw this first hand in the neighborhood I grew up in. The kid next door was the best athlete in our street. But one Sunday he was just standing in his front yard when this black car pulls up and a pointing finger shot out of the car window at the front door. The kid ran into his house like a bat out of hell. That kid and several others told me I'd go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. That was then; NOBODY seems to be like that now.
I'm still quite comfortable with TWI type fellowships but I'm not afraid to join a church.
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skyrider
Yeah, igotout.......like everything else, EXCEPT TWI, churches have advanced in the past 30 years. Today, the churches that I've attended offer a variety of study, support groups, community service, teen involvement, little league baseball, breakfast prayer groups, business luncheons, etc. In all facets of life, lots of churches have really rolled up their sleeves.
But......no longer do I tend to think in terms of twi's "black OR white" statements. Truth is truth.....no matter where you find it. Today's world is so intermeshed with information and involvement that, it seems to me, we've far outpaced vpw's statement.
Along with radio programs and tv evangelism, the internet is a growing source of Bible study and chat rooms. :) And, some of those California churches are pushing out old stereotypes and ushering in new trends and concepts of "church." Bible study groups are EVERYWHERE.
Twi remains frozen in a vpw-pond in a pasture in the middle of nowhere.
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markomalley
Actually, I agreed with the statement at the time. I still agree with the statement, as it pertained to most of the churches that I was familiar with in the '60s and '70s.
My experience was that there was CCD and CYO. You got catechized in CCD and if you were a jock, you could participate in CYO. That was basically it. (Yeah, some parishes had boy scout and girl scout troops, but again that was for a small segment) -- there was virtually NOTHING out there that I saw for HS kids and for college-age kids/young adults. At least, in my experience.
That has changed a lot. It is the norm to have kids, all through their development, involved in one way or another. And that is a good thing. Keeps them 'off the streets at night' and in an, at least somewhat, positive environment. My church has 7 Masses each week (most, even the 7:30 AM Mass, are at least 75% full), they have Bible studies one or two nights a week on various subjects, high school groups, middle school groups, CCD (Sunday School), small group fellowships that meet in the home, young adult groups, various service activities (St. Vincent de Paul Society, Ladies of Charity, Aramatheans, Knights of Columbus, etc., etc.), sponsor a soup kitchen, have an elementary/middle school, provide sponsorship for a High School, and so on. They have a full-time staff of 20 to support about 4,000 parishoners. And the current major effort is on a multimillion dollar capital improvement project to build a community center, so that they can do more. It isn't like what it was 25 years ago, let me tell you...
But, in TWI's favor (at least back in the 'good old days'): TWI, even though it had the faulty doctrine, was loose enough and free enough to keep young folks involved and feeling that they were doing something important. I know when I got involved (somewhat later than you were, to be sure), it was a family environment. Everybody wanted to hang out with each other. You'd watch the game together, go on witnessing trips down to the clubs on Friday and Saturday night, you'd work on each others cars, get together and cook dinner and hang out playing cards, help with the window-washing business of somebody if you had time, etc. It was considered a true blessing to be with one another. It was NOT a matter of obligation, it was a matter of genuinely preferring to associate one with another. And, at least in my experience, we tried to build each other up and walk according to the great commandment: love God and love each other. I know that this wasn't TWI as a whole...but at least it was the way that we were in our neck of the woods.
But that all changed over time, didn't it? What would TWI have for young people these days? They've got to watch their words, watch their actions, watch everything, so as not to get reproved and/or marked and avoided, right? It's a different place now. Are they even allowed to have fun anymore...?
It seems to me that the mainstream churches have, in large measure, gotten the message right finally: love God and love each other. It seems to me that TWI lost that key thing (particularly between individuals).
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WhiteDove
Mark
Your post reminded me of one of the good memories of Catholic Church. In the basement of the church some of the high school kids started a club. For some reason I don't know why, it seems odd as I think about it now but there was a stage already there. Sunday nights from 7:00 till 10:30 they would have dances for the 9th through 12 graders. It was a dark and dingy old church basement with some old furniture and posters that the kids had hauled in. They had local bands play the place was packed each week. Then one day someone got the idea that the music was cracking the plaster in the church upstairs so they shut it down. We used to borrow the overhead projector from the school and stack clear pie pans on top filled with oil and food coloring to light the walls (long before the days of oil projectors.) Hey it worked cheap band lighting 101 it looked like this
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tonto
When I was a church-going teenager in the late 60's-early 70's, I tend to agree that the churches weren't doing their jobs in the youth programs offered. The Baptist church I belonged to tried to be "groovy" by having the youth choir wear tie-dyed t-shirts while performing "Pass It On"...a musical about spreading the good news of salvation. I'm not knocking that, but it wasn't enough.
Church was still stuffy, the adult's hair was still sprayed helmet-stiff, and there was real suspicion of long-haired young people who listenened to rock music. There was a very real generation gap, and I don't believe the churches did enough to appeal to youth.
I believe many of today's churches offer what was lacking in those days. For me personally, I'm just not interested in group worship anymore.
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George Aar
I guess it depends on what exactly you think the church's "job" is.
Personally, it seems to me the church's job is to make plausible excuses for why reality never lines up with the "promises" of The Word. Basically, to rationalize why God never seems to deliver in the manner advertized.
In that regard I think TWI did a pretty good job. But the churches weren't all that lacking in that department either, from what I could tell...
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Lifted Up
I have been to several churches that don't seem to do that in the least, including the Russian language church I have been to most frequently.
My problem before TWI was that the church I went to (and a few others I sampled) made just your assumption...that reality and the Bible never (not even once in a while) have any connection. Now for some that idea has appeal, but the churches I refer to above certainly don't waste their time trying to prove that idea wrong.
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