TWI & Roman Catholicism

[Stayed Too Long]

Yesterday I visited my daughter, who is a student at the University of Montana, and we decided to get a cuppa joe at one of the local coffee shops. It was rather late when we walked in and there were only two tables with patrons sitting around. One table was in front of the counter where we ordered and had to wait several minutes for our drinks. After receiving our drinks we walked to a vacant table and sat down. As we were enjoying the coffee and conversation, I recognized one of the people sitting at the table in front of the counter as someone we knew from TWI. I called out his name from across the near empty room and he said 'hello'. Soon he and his two friends invited themselves over to our table, asked if they could sit with us, and we invited them to join us.

Since I hadn't seen him for 10 years I did not know his 'innie' status, but then immediately realized we had just stood in front of their table for several minutes waiting for our drinks, and he did not say a word to us, so figured he was probably still with The Way. I did not recognize him while we were waiting or would have said something then. It turns out his two friends are the TWI leaders for the State of Montana and were not aware we were ex-TWI (I am M&A and my daughter left a few years later).

Since my daughter is a student the conversation started about school. The leader wife said they had graduated from a bible college in Colorado and I immediately asked if they were with the Way. She said yes and wondered how I knew of the Way. I told here up until 10 years ago I was with the Way. She and her husband then put together their friend had known us from the Way, which obviously he hadn't told them. I figured then they wouldn't start witnessing to us, which they didn't, so the conversation just remained along school lines and talking about old times and people in twig. After 30 minutes or so we went our seperate ways.

During the entire conversation I felt no ill will towards them nor had any desire to say how rotten were Wierwille and Martindale. I didn't want to lash out at them and say how many people had been hurt by the Way, including myself. I viewed them as people living their lives just like any other. Sure I do not agree with their theology but don't agree with any others either.

After dropping my daughter off at her dorm and driving home, I began mulling over in my mind our conversation with them. I thought about the sexual abuse many woman had endured at the hands of Way leadership. Then, for some reason, my thoughts turned to the Roman Catholic church and all of the sexual abuse they have practiced for decades and perhaps centuries. Known pedophiles were allowed to remain in positions of leadership with children for a life time. If they were discovered they were simply moved to a new area to continue their child abuse. Leadership at the highest levels in the United States knew for years this was going on, after all they were the ones transferring the penophiles around. The head of the church in Rome refused to even acknowlege his priests were sexually abusing children until the press began pushing the issue.

My point is the Way has been rightly condemned for using their influence to abuse woman. This web site and the people here want the world to know how wrong TWI is, and are doing their best to let others know so they don't experience the same pitfalls. We see how detramental it has been to woman who are adults to have been abused by those in positions of leadership. It has a lasting effect on victims.

But with this knowledge many still belong to, and even join the Catholic church, swearing how wonderful it has been for them. How anyone can know in their mind that thousands, mainly young boys (children), have been sexually abused by these perverts and can still support them, is simply mind boggling to me. In my estimation the RC church is one of the sickest and most perverted group on the face of the earth. Their leadership parade around in white robes and beanies but underneath they are corrupted. If there is a God, and His venegence day is coming, surely they will burn in hell, including the previous one who is on the fast track to sainthood.

Maybe now I realize, to some extent, why people stay in TWI, Roman Catholicism, or any other organization that is abusive, if they have the physical freedom to leave. First they have to be able to justify or overlook the obvious abuse. It is not personal to them or has not affected their lives adversely to any great extent. Second the group meets some need they have, whether material, emotional, spiritual, financial, whatever. It gives something back to the individual, which may only be to reassue the person they will not go to hell or loose their rewards if they stay, even though they do not necessarily want to be there.

These are two reasons I have been ascertain and am sure there are many more.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Stayed Too Long

[DogLover]

Very enlightening post ... DogLover

[FreeFromCults]

STL...

I can tell you a third reason why people stay: FEAR.

FEAR of losing what they have while "in" (like family and circle of friends.). FEAR of being blackmailed by a leadership who'll go at any length to dig up dirt or spread BS to tarnish a person's name, dignity and reputation. FEAR of the world outside the box as described by same leadership. Finally... the FEAR (that leadership place on everyone) that people who leave the ministry always have something terrible happen to them.

[Patriot]

STL - I am glad that you felt no ill will toward those twi'ers, nor attacked that which

is still dear to them. It's like twi is like a person's momma (a limited comparison)

-you don't win anyone's heart by attacking their momma with accusations.

Even if 100% of those accusations are true, they don't want to hear them and

will not believe them over what momma's side of the story is. I think you handled it right!

BTW - just because those folks are in, doesn't make them evil or bad.

Actually, those folks who are the Limb contacts for MT were a nice couple

when I new them. Wish them all the best, but just not their momma.

Not insulting someone else's momma....truly a patriotic gesture! :)

Edited February 19, 2006 by Patriot

[Stayed Too Long]

STL...

I can tell you a third reason why people stay: FEAR.

FEAR of losing what they have while "in" (like family and circle of friends.). FEAR of being blackmailed by a leadership who'll go at any length to dig up dirt or spread BS to tarnish a person's name, dignity and reputation. FEAR of the world outside the box as described by same leadership. Finally... the FEAR (that leadership place on everyone) that people who leave the ministry always have something terrible happen to them.

The fear I would become a "greasespot by midnight" kept me around for many years because I so believed God would bring some horrible disease or accident upon me or my family. Fear is definitely a motivator that will ensure compliance and staying in line. Pile upon that loosing all the rewards and crowns I had earned, they really had me. If TWI had not mark and avoid me I don't know to this day if I would have ever gotten the courage to leave. I was a mess after being out just waiting for the ultimate tradgedy to happen, but then one day I realized my mind was still intact and health quite sound. Around that time I also happened upon GreaseSpot Cafe which has turned out to be such a life saver. Seeing others were having similar fears after leaving TWI, relieved many concerns and enabled me to get on with my life once again.

[Lifted Up]

STL, I think I see what you are saying...we should use the same standards in condemming the Catholic Chrch for sexual abuse that takes place that we use in condemming TWI.

But I don't agree that the answer is as simple as condemming everyone there.

many still belong to, and even join the Catholic church, swearing how wonderful it has been for them.

In my estimation the RC church is one of the sickest and most perverted group on the face of the earth.

Perhaps it has been wonderful for many. Perhaps thre are wonderful people and wonderful leaders who have helped many. Or are all priests...or a majority even...molesters/abusers?

I could say more, but I would rather hear fromsomeone involved in some way with the Catholic Church. I am not.

[Stayed Too Long]

STL, I think I see what you are saying...we should use the same standards in condemming the Catholic Chrch for sexual abuse that takes place that we use in condemming TWI.

But I don't agree that the answer is as simple as condemming everyone there.

Perhaps it has been wonderful for many. Perhaps thre are wonderful people and wonderful leaders who have helped many. Or are all priests...or a majority even...molesters/abusers?

I could say more, but I would rather hear fromsomeone involved in some way with the Catholic Church. I am not.

Yes I am saying the same standards should be applied to all groups when it comes to judging their actions. Perhaps it has been wonderful for many in TWI also. Pershaps there are wonderful people and wonderful leaders who have helped many in TWI. And I surely don't believe all the leadership in TWI are molesters/abusers. But if we are saying that because the leadership of The Way has abused/molested their people we should not follow them, then the same standard should also apply to other groups, especially when the abuse has been so wide spread and gone on for so long.

IN addition I grew up in the RC church and can tell you from personal, frightening experience they use fear to whip people into shape. Believe me when I say TWI has nothing over the RC's when it comes to applying fear to keep people in line. The nuns and priests I knew were just as intimidating as Wierwille or Martindale when it came to demanding obedience. The fear of going to hell was always looming for those leaving or not towing the line.

[FreeFromCults]

The fear I would become a "greasespot by midnight" kept me around for many years because I so believed God would bring some horrible disease or accident upon me or my family. Fear is definitely a motivator that will ensure compliance and staying in line. Pile upon that loosing all the rewards and crowns I had earned, they really had me. If TWI had not mark and avoid me I don't know to this day if I would have ever gotten the courage to leave. I was a mess after being out just waiting for the ultimate tradgedy to happen, but then one day I realized my mind was still intact and health quite sound. Around that time I also happened upon GreaseSpot Cafe which has turned out to be such a life saver. Seeing others were having similar fears after leaving TWI, relieved many concerns and enabled me to get on with my life once again.

And... after awhile we found out all the FEARS they planted in our minds are nothing but BS.

When I left, I left on my own accord. I stayed because of fear, but with all their legalisms, trying to control my life along with dictating how day schedule should be, I just didn't care anymore what will happen to me if I left. I reached the point that I'd rather be dead than live like a slave of a tyrannical ministry.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

i was raised rc and yes the motavation was fear

after 35+ years i have kind of returned and have seen no fear motavated things

in fact the opposite

you are welcomed with much love

the doctrin? well that leaves something to be desired

but no fear

[markomalley]

the doctrin? well that leaves something to be desired

but no fear

If you don't buy the doctrine, then why are you going in the first place?

[Stayed Too Long]

......the doctrin? well that leaves something to be desired.....

Doctrine apparently is not a high priority in your decision to return to the RC church. Maybe familiarity or friendliness are values you needed in the church you decided to attend. To me it doesn't matter what the reason is just so you feel comfortable and it makes you happy. Someone else may find a small stream off the beaten path, in a grove of trees, ideal for worshipping.

I would look at the reputation of the group also. The RC's have a history of their leaders molesting children and then covering it up. Red flags jump out at me.

[FreeFromCults]

I would look at the reputation of the group also. The RC's have a history of their leaders molesting children and then covering it up. Red flags jump out at me.

Not to mention a long history of participating in genocides and killings "in the name of God"

[I Love Bagpipes]

I've never been RC, but left TWI in the past few months. I've thought about the comparison in the same way as you stated in your original post STL. The difference between RC & TWI (from my limited media knowledge and some literary historical knowledge) is that once the RC abuses were exposed (via the media) action was taken to counsel people; the RCs had to acknowledge the facts...and the RCs did something to try to reconcile the abuses. Did they do it to keep $$ flowing in, to save face, or with genuine sorrow? Probably all three. TWI has not acknowledged the abuses, and barely acknowledges its past. IN TWI IT IS LIKE NOTHING EVER HAPPENED and even if it did "PEOPLE NEED TO GROW UP, GET OVER IT, AND MOVE ON" without any closure or remorse from the guilty party. The victim is victimized again (as stated in Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse).

[markomalley]

Not to mention a long history of participating in genocides and killings "in the name of God"

They are ALL horrible people who should be exterminated!

[excathedra]

i feel the same way about both organizations

[ckmkeon]

The way I see it both the Roman Catholic Church and TWI and businesses now no longer for worship they are incorporated they make billions upon billions of dollars. Today the money is more important then anybody the richer you are the more saved you get. Both are like Halliburton, Enron, Procter & Gamble well you get the idea I talked to a "Father" in the catholic church and I went to one of there services everybody looked like robots in there

ckmckeon

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

that is cerrtainly not the rc church i attend

we respect each other and the priest has never been to my house to inspect it and to see what i was up too

a business

yes of course it is

but aren't all churches?

it takes money to run a building where people can gather to worship thier own personal god and i can assure you i am not a robot

if anything rebel might fit

[ckmkeon]

that is cerrtainly not the rc church i attend

we respect each other and the priest has never been to my house to inspect it and to see what i was up too

a business

yes of course it is

but aren't all churches?

it takes money to run a building where people can gather to worship thier own personal god and i can assure you i am not a robot

if anything rebel might fit

If you are not a robot than stop repeating yourself after the father or whoever is running that place from what I hear the priest really respect the younger childern The catholic church makes the second amount of money in the world the first is Microsoft. The catholic church is so corrupt that the richer you are the more the catholic church likes you and please the father son and holy ghost that is very robotic

God Bless

ckmckeon

[excathedra]

i will never ever ever understand why our own parish didn't take up the cause of two little boys

and why our family didn't

and why other parishes didn't

why rome didn't

and why the whole stupid world didn't get it

but hey that's just me, a disgruntled excult head

[Stayed Too Long]

that is cerrtainly not the rc church i attend

we respect each other and the priest has never been to my house to inspect it and to see what i was up too

I agree you have never seen the molesting that has been going on in the RC church for decades if not centuries, but that doesn't mean it never happened. I had no knowledge of leadership in TWI using woman while I was involved, but obviously that doesn't mean much after reading posting here. I am sure you can find a good Way fellowship and a good RC church but I wouldn't give either a second look because of their pasts.

[ckmkeon]

I agree you have never seen the molesting that has been going on in the RC church for decades if not centuries, but that doesn't mean it never happened. I had no knowledge of leadership in TWI using woman while I was involved, but obviously that doesn't mean much after reading posting here. I am sure you can find a good Way fellowship and a good RC church but I wouldn't give either a second look because of their pasts.

Why goto either there are past Way followers who run the basics of the way which I believe is true

God Bless

ckmckeon

P.S. I would not be caught dead at another Catholic Church I did it once and never again will I go