Responses and Objective Opinions

[I Love Bagpipes]

Following are excerpts from a January, 2006, local letter to Advanced Class candidates in the local Branch. As I read it my stomach sort of tied in a knot and my emotions "clammed up." :( Am I reading into what is written (being that I so recently left), or do I read legalism? If it is legalistic, what is legalistic about it? Is it the monthly updates? Is it treating people like adolescents? Is it the hoop jumping required in order to receive instruction in God's Word? :unsure:

I'm interested in others reactions/response when they read this. (I'm also interested, like I stated, if I am reading legalism into this letter or is it simply a requirement of an organization to be fulfilled in order to participate in a given program.) :blink:

Letter excerpts:

January, 2006

Dear Candidate/Parent,

God's richest blessings to you this day in the name that is above all names, Jesus Christ.

We are 17 months from the start of Advanced Class 2007. ....

....As you know there are several steps that must be completed in order for you to attend. Included in this letter is the list of requirements that must be completed for this major event in your life.

Our goal and believing is for all of the candidates to attend this fantastic Advanced Class. The class will allow each candidate the opportunity to be fully instructed in the manifestations, thus allowing each of you the privilege to grow beyond your wildest expectations as you put this wonderful Word on in your daily walk.

We ask that you update us on a monthly basis concerning the following requirements for the Advanced Class:

- Savings for the Advanced Class tuition and meal plan. Registration deadline - Feb. 1, 2007

- Hotel

- Vehicle Fuel

- Snacks

- Spending money

- A dark suit for the men

- A nice dress fro the ladies

- Casually nice clothes (no jeans)

- Complete academic requirements, including the Home Studies

- Faithfully participate in household fellowship on a regular basis

We also recommend the candidates participating in Foundational, Intermediate and Defeating the Adversary classes whenever available. (We) are here to assist, encourage and help you attain the goal of becoming an Advanced Class graduate. We look forward to a great 17 months of believing together to attain this worthwhile goal.

End of excerpts.

17 months of reporting back and of prepartation to take a 2 week class? Is it me or is that out of balance?

Thanks for you insights!

[allan w.]

totally out of whack, continued intrusion. I believe they read their own mistrust and evil into the lives of others.

[johniam]

Well, I'm thinking back 20 yrs or more. Here in STL there was only 1 believer who took the AC from the STL metro area in 1983, so the following year one of the corps grads held AC candidate meetings once per month. The tone of these meetings was positive and uplifting; nothing heavy.

The plan must have worked because there were several of us in the '84 AC. I'm sure some of the same things were covered in preparation for each AC, but like I said the tone was probably different. I have no problem with charging money for an AC, but I left TWI in '94 and the way local leadership was treating people then they couldn't have paid me to sit in the same room with them for a day, much less 2 weeks.

Bagpipes, I think YOU are in the best position to evaluate the current state of TWI legalism.

[ex10]

bagpipes,

My experience in most churches has been that there are no hoops to jump through to attend a teaching event. You just register and show up, and everbody is glad you're there.

Nobody cares how many other classes you've attended, or not.

Your spirituality, or worthiness to be there, is not dependent on anything except you are there.

And nobody cares much how you dress, either.

Or whose meetings you've attended, or not, before you got there.

Yeah, it's weird.

[Patriot]

Oh my, with this candidate letter, where do I start????

First of all, did they send this "candidate" letter to everyone who "should" be

a candidate by that time (new grads, etc.), or only to those who actually asked

to be one? VERY presumptuous if not requested to be a candidate.

I also noticed that the DEBT requirements were not listed here, but "snacks" is.

Have they changed their punitive measure? Or did they just leave it out because

the people getting this letter haven't been instructed on that punitive measure yet?

One glaringly obvious point is, that this letter just seems so unspiritual! No scriputures,

no Biblical references to why they actually should take this class and learn about the

other 6 manifestations. It was so secular, and so......ick.

Just so unpatroitic!

[socks]

thus allowing each of you the privilege to grow beyond your wildest expectations

Oh, they have NO idea... NO idea.

Bagpipes Lover, it's not legalism they're pedaling. Read it again. It's ASSISTANCE. They want to assist you in the following challenging items. Maybe they have stock in Chevron. Maybe they bought Frito-Lay.

We ask that you update us on a monthly basis concerning the following requirements for the Advanced Class:

- Vehicle Fuel

- Snacks

Snacks?

I read it again. Yup. You're going to take the Advanced Class, you have to have snacks now. It's required.

Snacks.

Month 1....I got my fuel.

Month 2...I still got my fuel.

Month 3....I checked. I still have my fuel.

Month 4...I lost my fuel.

Month 5....I found my fuel.

This is cool. Everytime I need to feel smart, I'm going to read that list. INStantly adds 50 points to my Eye Q. Honestly, this is for the ADVANCED class? I'd hate to see what they monitor for the Foundational now....

I dunno what they're teaching in the Advanced Class these days but it's worth it be on the mailing list just to get this. It's hilarious! It should be on the front page of Grease Spot, headed "Several Things to Consider Before You Join The Way".

Snacks. :P :)

Edited February 17, 2006 by socks

[dmiller]

..... or do I read legalism?

(snip)

....As you know there are several steps that must be completed in order for you to attend. Included in this letter is the list of requirements that must be completed for this major event in your life.

We ask that you update us on a monthly basis concerning the following requirements for the Advanced Class:

- Savings for the Advanced Class tuition and meal plan. Registration deadline - Feb. 1, 2007

- Hotel

- Vehicle Fuel

- Snacks

- Spending money

- A dark suit for the men

- A nice dress fro the ladies

- Casually nice clothes (no jeans)

- Complete academic requirements, including the Home Studies

- Faithfully participate in household fellowship on a regular basis

I read nothing BUT legalism!!!

I took AC in 79, and previous to that year, the ONLY requirements for taking AC

were that you had to have had all of the *seminars* offered by twi, to get in.

That meant:

Foundational class

Intermediate class

Renewed Mind

Witnesing and Undershepherding

The way tree

Dealing with the adversary

And CF&S.

Twi didn't care then at all about *nicities* or money (as per *reporting in*) ---

Ya had to have taken the courses first, or no entrance to AC.

Granted --- we were told it would cost *X* amount of $$$, but

to hear now that they are *micro-managing* the available cash

a prospective student has, is crazy.

When I took it for a 2nd time, in 1981 -------

Our only requirement was that we had to be a grad of the class,

and we had to take a written test.

Just shows ta go ya where their thinking is at, eh??

Money, money, money, money (You pay us, make sure you have it on hand,

and we want to know how much --but don't forget to ABS meanwhile).

Sorry, but this irks me (big time).

Ex10 was right -- there are many classes offered elsewhere that teach just as much (if not more), and NO such requirements are made (demanded) of *prospective students*.

Fear is NOT the sand in the machinery of life

TWI, and their love of money is.

(just my IMO ---- as usual)

David

Edited February 17, 2006 by dmiller

[Patriot]

Other things that bothered me

"Our goal".......whose goal?

"The class will allow each candidate".....the class 'allows'. Shouldn't it be the class enables

or instructs?

"Allowing...allows...our goal....you the privilege...the opportunity..." - it just drips with

the air of permission given by us, and twi.

"attain the goal (whose goal?) of becoming an Advanced Class graduate" - how about a

spiritual can of whoopa$$, who can operate the power of God and bring deliverance to

His people? Sounds better than achieving graduate status, eh?

Then 17 monthly updates as to your checklist? Heck, even the deadline is a year away!

Again, why is it that they didn't put on the checklist being out of debt?

Thanks Bagpipes! This is a good example of where things are now, and why not to be

involved. Very unspiritual letter, and....unpatriotic?

[dmiller]

how about a spiritual can of whoopa$$,

HA!!!!!! OMG!! Too funny!!

[I Love Bagpipes]

Thanks for your responses.

ROFLMAO Socks. That was hilarious!!

Patriot this was sent to all folks who "qualify" as AC Candidates. I had similar thoughts. Thank you for articulating the "air of permission" for me. It's like we (TWI) are affording you the privilege. Like this knowledge is only available for some elite classification of people. If you don't measure up, you are not worthy to attend.

I am not sure about the debt policy. It has not been PUBLICALLY removed. But then mark & avoid was never publically removed. It is like it just disappeared and followers are supposed to figure it out...or ask. Why not just tell people instead of putting them in the uncomfortable position of having to ask Is it some sort of big damn secret!?! (Apologies...just all of sudden I'm *%^#*ed off about it! )

So from your responses, I'm not reading into the letter. Sometimes my emotional responses get jumbled up. I wonder am I thinking evil; am I jumping to a conclusion. Part of this comes from my relationship and previous encounters with the author(s) of this letter. But then that is part of the manipulation....the individual, not the system, is at fault. If the individual doesn't fit in the neatly ordered box, something must be wrong with the indiviual. (again!)

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you...for helping me clarify and allow this anger to surface. That's what I clam up. ..the frustration, the anger. When I read the letter it just turned my stomach. I reread and thought, "Well, it's not an evil letter. What is it that bothers me so much about it?" It's the hoops, the assumptions, the belittling, the "air of permission".

Freedom....ahhhh...it tastes better and better.

[socks]

Cool.

Anytime you want to get perspective, remember - they want to spend 17 months monitoring your Snack Plan.

That'll get your mind right, fer sure.

Edited February 17, 2006 by socks

[templelady]

Snack plan

What happens if the snacks I planned for are not snacks I'm still interested in

I mean If I Plan KC Masterpiece barbecue Potato Chips by Frito Lay

and in 17 months want Doritos and Salsa instead--what kind of contingency plan do I need.

Do I need a mini fridge for the Klondike bars--unless I'm into Ben and Jerry's in 17 months

And Soda what if I suddenly want orange juice instead--

I mean that snack thing is a really big deal fraught with pitfalls and last minute changes

Sitting through classes is easy --considering what snacks I'll want 17 months from now is reaaaaallllllllyyyy hard

[justloafing]

They did forget one thing............ A blanket so you can lay down and take a nap after your snack.

[markomalley]

One thing to be said about that letter. They forgot one thing for the prospective students:

[skyrider]

We ask that you update us on a monthly basis concerning the following requirements for the Advanced Class:

In other words.......report back to us every month and we will monitor your progress. Yes, we have set standards and will tell you IF you meet that standard.

Your dependence on us...............STARTS TODAY.

Subtle suggestions yield fawning followers.

[tomtuttle1]

Socks, I thank thee for thine wisdom and in-depth somethingism. Since I do not plan to be a part of their goal to become an adv class grad, but would like to attend a household fellowship, would you esteem it a wise thing for me to do, to update HQ weekly on my walk, you know, things like making sure I went to the bathroom at least once daily, that I woke up every day, brushed my teeth (once a week), and so on??

I feel so lost without some leader lovingly guiding me in the way of life. I sure don't want to offend the true God by saying something wrong, or doing something I haven't been instructed by leadership to do. Simply put, I don't want to miss God by missing the leaders.

Am I being too critical of myself?? Maybe I DO need the adv class, sos I can cast out the confusion ...

Edited February 17, 2006 by tomtuttle1

[shazdancer]

Unreal. They feel they need to "help" you for 17 months???

Just when I thought i'd heard everything about how weird TWI was/is, I hear another one that floors me. Like socks, I can't imagine what I could write back to them for the next 17 months (they don't have enough people for a 2006 class?). Snacks!

I'm not sure what it speaks to:

Are the followers that dense that they need someone checking up on them for a year and a half? (unlikely)

Are the administrators that dense that they can't operate without someone doing that to them, so they're just passing the control along? (possible)

Do the administrators only want people at the upper tier to be those who would put up with this kind of micromanagement? (Dingdingding, Shaz!)

Bagpipes, so glad you're out of all that.

Regards,

Shaz

[mstar1]

This is too much early in the morning

with all the need in the world

The thought of Rev. Boob actually taking time to write a letter to believer Bob about getting his potato chips together is somewhere between absurdly humorous and incredibly pathetic. A little bit of both.

These people really need to get out more often and get a life

[skyrider]

(We) are here to assist, encourage and help you attain the goal of becoming an Advanced Class graduate.

The Goal........becoming an Advanced Class graduate.....?????

Isn't the aim of all education....ACTION..??

If the "goal" is just a nametag (climbing twi's hierarchy ladder)......it's counterfeit. Period.

[act2]

Besides what everyone else has said; remember that twi is Way overstaffed. Now they can assign a few people to monitor the prospective adv. class grad's progress!!!

I bet they even set up a spreadsheet on each student and have graphs and announce at mealtime how many are meeting their monthly objectives, with an end to their goal (Adv. Class Grad).

Just my opinion

[oldiesman]

Bagpipes,

When I first took the Advanced Class in 1978, I hadn't been going to twig for 6 months prior to that point.

Now one not only must be a faithful participant, but also report to them once a month with an update?

Golly they must have a lot of free time on their hands.

[WordWolf]

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface.]

Following are excerpts from a January, 2006, local letter to Advanced Class candidates in the local Branch. As I read it my stomach sort of tied in a knot and my emotions "clammed up." :( Am I reading into what is written (being that I so recently left), or do I read legalism? If it is legalistic, what is legalistic about it? Is it the monthly updates? Is it treating people like adolescents? Is it the hoop jumping required in order to receive instruction in God's Word? :unsure:

I'm interested in others reactions/response when they read this. (I'm also interested, like I stated, if I am reading legalism into this letter or is it simply a requirement of an organization to be fulfilled in order to participate in a given program.) :blink:

[Request granted. I shall do my best to fairly represent

the contents, phrasing and intent of the letter,

in plain English.]

Letter excerpts:

January, 2006

Dear Candidate/Parent,

God's richest blessings to you this day in the name that is above all names, Jesus Christ.

We are 17 months from the start of Advanced Class 2007. ....

....As you know there are several steps that must be completed in order for you to attend. Included in this letter is the list of requirements that must be completed for this major event in your life.

[As someone already pointed out, it would help if we knew

if this was being sent to everyone who has specifically expressed

interest in AC2007,

or if it's just assumed that all viable candidates will want to attend

and are thus sent the form letter.]

Our goal and believing is for all of the candidates to attend this fantastic Advanced Class. The class will allow each candidate the opportunity to be fully instructed in the manifestations, thus allowing each of you the privilege to grow beyond your wildest expectations as you put this wonderful Word on in your daily walk.

[That's an inflated claim, but it's what they always say,

so it's not really indicative of anything but the USUAL hubris.]

We ask that you update us on a monthly basis concerning the following requirements for the Advanced Class:

- Savings for the Advanced Class tuition and meal plan. Registration deadline - Feb. 1, 2007

- Hotel

- Vehicle Fuel

- Snacks

- Spending money

- A dark suit for the men

- A nice dress fro the ladies

- Casually nice clothes (no jeans)

- Complete academic requirements, including the Home Studies

- Faithfully participate in household fellowship on a regular basis

[Now THIS is absolutely silly.

17 months away, they want a MONTHLY update as to your finances,

whether you have a semi-formal outfit, snacks, and a hotel reservation?

As to the majority of the demands (because they're politely-phrased

demands), they help maintain an atmosphere of CONTROL.

If you're willing to be led by the hand for 17 months like that,

you'll be ready for the weeks of doctrine swallowing necessary

AT said class.

As to the MAIN purpose of this letter, however,

it was CLEVERLY HIDDEN.

The entire list-save one item-was really INCIDENTAL.

With so many people focusing on so many items on the list,

they'll overlook the SECOND item on the list.

"HOTEL."

Item One was twi's money, Item Two was the hotel

reservation.

Now, twi hq HAS sufficient housing for somewhere over a hundred

to stay. I have NO idea of the exact numbers, but in the 80s,

they had staff, corps and an entire bus of visitors on-site at the

time, and nobody was cramped. So, if I guessed there were

150 corps on location representing 4 different corps,

and 100 visitors, they would have at least had room for 250

students on-grounds.

twi COULD try to use this as an opportunity to engender

LOYALTY. Show people the famous beautiful grounds

(they've tried to silence dissent that way before),

surround them with ads, and keep the thought police

in play. However, they have elected NOT to.

Why?

Well, since their method is to the detriment of CONTROL,

there has to be ANOTHER main reason.

In this case, it's MONEY.

They don't want to account for the effort to have all the work

done to host that many people on-grounds, and spend the

money to accomodate them.

Compared to the 80s, they've got plenty of actual SPACE

and HOUSING, but not the DESIRE, and possibly

not the STAFF. (Then again, the idea of the staff all working

hard may be the logjam.)

However, this way, they pay NOTHING and exert NO EFFORT

to house the students. At most, they arrange a reservation

block at a hotel for the students-which is what they did

before in the 90s.

Hotels consider even a year's notice as "last-minute".

So, this type of notice is so that twi can avoid a penalty

for people not filling the block-

or they're used to that requirement and are just acting

mechanistically.]

We also recommend the candidates participating in Foundational, Intermediate and Defeating the Adversary classes whenever available. (We) are here to assist, encourage and help you attain the goal of becoming an Advanced Class graduate. We look forward to a great 17 months of believing together to attain this worthwhile goal.

End of excerpts.

17 months of reporting back and of prepartation to take a 2 week class? Is it me or is that out of balance?

[it is grossly out of balance.]

Thanks for you insights!

[skyrider]

Bagpipes,

And to think......this is only the WRITTEN requirements.

Once the local corps get their "marching orders to follow-up on his/her progress"........the no-debt issue will surface, the recommended amount to ABS, the protocol and attitude towards reporting back, etc. etc.

This candidate letter is just the beginning.

shudder.

[outandabout]

I think the Advanced Class is way overrated.

Like God won't talk to you unless you're a grad?

[Belle]

Holy Micro-Management, Batman!! This is Infinitesimal-Management!!

Jeepers Creeps!! And people say it's BETTER???? Holy Freaking Cow!! I'm floored - I know I shouldn't be, but I am. :blink: And to think this is how people reacted to me when I told them that they were looking at our finances and tracking our giving and how we spend our money. Sadly, for most of those still involved, this is just business as usual.

TWI is a master at the abusive language - I yell because I care - We're helping you be more spiritual. What happened to "God would have ALL MEN come unto a knowledge of Him"? I don't remember there being a price on that knowledge.

And are you telling me that with over FORTY MILLION DOLLARS IN THE BANK that TWI can't afford snacks for those people???? They can't even afford to feed them???? Un-friggin-believable! Oh, wait! I know - they're providing the KOOL-AID!

What, too, does it say about TWI followers if they are worried that some people may not have nice clothes for the classes? What does it matter, in all honesty, but if they are worried that people don't have the "proper" attire, then something is seriously wrong with the More Abundant Life. <_<

Seventeen months of Infinitesimal Management for a two week class? That would raise the suspicion and wariness factor exponentially in my book. It's only going to get worse as Skyrider said - this is just the beginning.