HAHAHAHAHA, but you forgot about "THE PRESENT TRUTH". New heavy revvie from God for the DOGFOT. That's Director Of God For Our Time. Almost sounds like Dog Fart. LOLROFLMAO
A believer lends his son money to go to business school --the kid pays that off and dad cosigns for a loan so kid can start business . Kid goes on to found a multi million dollar corporation borrowing and lending huge sums to expand etc. Kid decides "why send all that money to TWI HQ -I'll form my own ministry and collect money for me as he stands in his squash outfit having just come off the court
vision fades to a blurredstage with a large pulsating muticolored amoeba shape on the back wall
that's it !! their afraid if you become successful you'll find you don't need them after all
that's it !! their afraid if you become successful you'll find you don't need them after all
Exactly temple lady. If they "allow" you to get involved in the corporate world and make money, their followers would probably discover just how phony LCM's spewing is and was about his ability to be the leader of a Fortune 500 company.
Patriot, this is an excellent thread thank you for taking the time to start it! I called TWI this morning and the bookstore lady, Ruth, said that they are still selling his book.
TWI wouldn't have the buildings it has, the property it has and the savings that it has if it weren't for THEM going into debt themselves. This documents it and they can't cover it up. They can quit selling the book, but the damage has been done. I wonder if they'll make everyone burn it on "Uncle Harry Day" to get rid of the evidence. Or was UHD another one of those "old wineskins" that they got rid of under craiggers regime? I can't remember, but I don't think we celebrated it any more after the early 90's.
Thanks for typing up all these quotes from the book. I don't have mine anymore, so it was good to refresh the memory and to see in black & white the utter hypocracy.
I know this was always the WayWorld contention, but I kinda doubt it. I mean, I saw the little place where HEW did his upholstery work, I saw the shabby little cottage where his widow lived, and the cars he drove, etc. If that's the trappings of a millionaire, well, I'd be more than a little surprised.
I wonder if the assertion that Harry made so much money isn't more a product of WayWorld lore than of anything that really happened? Just a little dubious...
Geo., I don't know if U. Harry made millions or not, but believe you me, I knew a few NK-area millionaires, and neither their clothes nor their cars nor their houses would ever have tipped you off to the kind of money they had.
I had several close friends among the locals in that neck of the woods. Some of them simply worked all their lives, never bought anything extravagant, and saved like crazy. They weren't even in business for themselves, but because of their frugality, they'll leave quite an inheritance. It's just the culture of that part of Ohio.
I remember VPW talking about having a mortgage-burning party when they paid off the twi property. All that was talked about debt when I was an innie was that it was right to pay your debts. Period.
It's pretty easy for today's twi higher-ups to pooh-pooh debt. What financial worries do they have, for God's sake? LCM, who apparently started this whole anti-debt thing, never held a job before twi. He never had to pay rent. He was waited on hand and foot. LCM nursed at the boob of the way his entire adult life until he got the boot. I imagine it's been quite a rude awakening for him.
Sometimes I rummage through old threads and I found this one.
Wow, and to think I daren't buy a house (=going into debt) after they'd kicked me out - and I watched prices rise and rise.
Of course now they are falling and falling...
I bought a house and I pay less on mortgage than I would if I rented.
I found the house after months of searching "in my own strength" after I'd finally got mad with God and said if He really wanted me in this city, he had to do something about somewhere for me to live. Funny thing, but I found this house the very next day.
The finance to buy the house came together completely miraculously; I still don't know how it happened. Lot of amazing things happened there.
And now I am self-employed, He always makes sure there is money for everything I reasonably need inc the mortgage - and then some left, to give to others.
So glad that God has an eye on the future and knows what will be best for each one of us, long-term, in this lifetime.
I bought a house and I pay less on mortgage than I would if I rented.
I found the house after months of searching "in my own strength" after I'd finally got mad with God and said if He really wanted me in this city, he had to do something about somewhere for me to live. Funny thing, but I found this house the very next day.
The finance to buy the house came together completely miraculously; I still don't know how it happened. Lot of amazing things happened there.
And now I am self-employed, He always makes sure there is money for everything I reasonably need inc the mortgage - and then some left, to give to others.
So glad that God has an eye on the future and knows what will be best for each one of us, long-term, in this lifetime.
I think this is a common theme to people leaving the ministry. Bondage and fear over TWI's convoluted doctrine on debt. God pulling things together in spite of our fears. Deliverance. People just don't realize the bondage that you are under listening to TWI and obeying what they say. Many times it takes the shock of something personal for people to wake up to this. You realize that they (the leaders) certainly aren't living the way they are demanding you live. And you notice they don't really have much concern at all for you or your family. They simply actively demonstrate how much they don't care. Then you realize that the only reason they have any authority over you at all is because you let them. They you leave from under that authority. Then you realize that whatever authority it was they were lording over you with, it was certainly not instituted by God. Then freedom ensues.
About a month after we left I walked in to look at a house - just looking at options to get out of that stupid rental with all those memories about TWI people abusing us as guests in our home. I walked in this one place and walked through it and just felt this incredible sense of peace. Like peace I never had in the rental. I felt I could live there. So we did. God came through with finances even though we had no savings due to supporting all of those bloodsucking leech Pharisees in TWI for so many years at our own expense. Over the years living here we've formed great friendships with neighbors, loved the local schools, had many great cookouts that no TWI people were invited to, and built a new life. With real friends, not fake. With a real community, not fake.
So Twinky, I'm glad for you. I'm glad for myself. I'm sad for the people that haven't experienced this yet and are still living under the bondage of the Pharisees.
The Way Nash leveraged financing through bank loans regularly to do it's business. Always did.
VPW would act like a mouse had eaten his cat when he talked about it, how uptight he was about having to mortgage property or assets. But HEW did, with his business. Floated money to support the Way.
He always made it sound like "back in the early years" as if it was a learning curve for him that he'd grown out of.
Buuuuuuut, that was in the 70's.....no early years there. That was during the growth bubble of the Way.
No one wants to be in debt over their means, have bills they can't pay, spending habits that don't reflect good money management and common sense.
The Way would never have gotten off the ground and to any state of self sufficiency without 1. loans and 2. other people's contributions. PFAL made $ from the donation/fee but it wasn't enough to finance properties, growth, salaries, all of that.
Now Martindale, something of a different story there.
He apparently felt that the Way had enough $$$$ flowing to put all the Way Corps membership on 'salary', basically make them all paid employees of the Way. It was this period and the subsequent years that I'd assume put him on the rabid "no debt" policy track - he didn't want the Way to bear the debts of others and then when that plan tanked he wanted to feel better about having screwed so many people over so he lowered the bar of what others should expect and do. No money, no job, no real resume' to speak of - you're going to need to get your tail working unless like Craig you have other people's money paying your way and/or family to hit on that will pay your way.
I only heard about it all second hand, I'd left the Way by then but -
Honestly - he and Howard must have never done the math. When I heard about it after it had failed I was shocked. He was nuts, to be kind. I can't imagine how he thought it was going to work - probably some boosted juiced formula of ROI.
Man, talk about naive. No heavy revvie there - what he did was like jumping off a bridge and expecting to land on your feet unharmed. If "God tells you" to do that, go for it. But you better have it in writing or you're going to be real sore real soon. As was he.
And his view of what was "good financial planning" was illustrated by the fact that - reportedly - the Way almost went bankrupt because Craig didn't wake up to what was going on until Howard Allen told him they were running out of money and had only another couple months of resources to pay out. That's just - ka razee too.
Beware all ye who enter - outside of a few well worn euphemisms and boy-howdies you can get from anywhere else, the Way gives terrible financial advice. Again - the "good" advice they give is available from 1,000's of other sources, including what your momma and daddy probably told you. They ain't pushing rocket science. Work, save, share what you can, collaborate as much as possible, spend wisely, partner considerately, borrow frugally, pay back timely. Repeat. Again. Doink.
Now Martindale, something of a different story there.
He apparently felt that the Way had enough $$ flowing to put all the Way Corps membership on 'salary', basically make them all paid employees of the Way. It was this period and the subsequent years that I'd assume put him on the rabid "no debt" policy track - he didn't want the Way to bear the debts of others and then when that plan tanked he wanted to feel better about having screwed so many people over so he lowered the bar of what others should expect and do. No money, no job, no real resume' to speak of - you're going to need to get your tail working unless like Craig you have other people's money paying your way and/or family to hit on that will pay your way.
The rapid "no debt" policy was early 90s. Salaried WC came somewhat later, mid or late 90s.
I know one person who wanted to enter the WC - had a lovely house, small mortgage, careful in handling money; to enter the WC he had to be debt-free - and ended up selling the house at least $50,000 under value. He could've rented it out for way in excess of the mortgage - TWI could in fact have made money on it, on tithes on the rental income, it coulda paid this person's way through TWI...but no. What sort of financial management is that? To compound the injury, this person didn't even survive the first year of WC.
But who would want WC with ties to an area - with a house, kids in good schools, roots in the community...
I'm a bit ambivalent about whether or not people should incur debt. I do a lot of debt counselling and see the misery that out of control debts causes in the lives of individuals and families. People need to learn better financial management. For some people - perhaps they should never ever ever have any kind of debt. For others - a carefully thought out debt may lead to a much better physical life. Like it or not, western culture is very debt-oriented and it would be much better to acknowledge that and encourage proper financial planning/management and responsibility than to legalistically ban any form of debt.
I clearly remember LCM on a Corps Night stating that things had become financially strained from HQ because of the full-time Way Corps status "revelation." But that this was NOT because we (as a ministry) were not "living within our means" ... Oh no! It wasn't that. It was the TAXES! Yes ... the payroll TAXES. That was the problem. As if these were a mysterious surprise that no-one could have anticipated ... a trick of the adversary.
In fact, anyone in business understands the tax-cost of employees. It's not a mystery but federal code, set in stone and as obvious as the time of day. If you have employees, you pay these or the government shuts. you. down... and fast. And the percentages are clear and understandable with an 8th grade education. The pay deadlines are clear. Nothing mysterious or vague. Someone did not do their homework ... their arithmetic.
So staff were "asked" (ie required) to take another 10% cut in pay - off their already determined need-basis.
Innterestin'...........and The bible teaches in Romans, pay what's owed - taxes, honor, give all their due and in fact "owe" nothing by paying "everything", that is to "Love", which will thereby do all that's required. So while Craig may not have liked the tax codes and cost to do business - join the club, but there is a cost of doing business and the Way was a business. He just didn't like running it according to the requirements and direction that's given in the very book he publicly "taught" from.
Uncle Harry-san knew how to juggle finances and debt. He did it very well. He was a "sharp" business man in his day.
I remember when we lived there, and about 1975, we went to a local auction that we'd heard he and some others from the Way were going to. It was all locals, a few Wayfers, and it seemed business as usual, 40 -50 people looking over the estate stuff and what was being sold. We were looking around for furniture and stuff. Then HEW got there and it ran through the crowd, we could hear it .........."Harry's here, he's looking to buy...."....."I saw him, not sure what he's looking for, he's here though"..........there was a buzz around his presence and of course his check book. Action, H.E.'s here...
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, rather that's the result of his years of doing business in the area and being successful. If he'd arrived and owed everyone money or been a rube no one would have cared.
My biggest lesson learned, looking back to how the Way built itself that first decade after PFAL was in the can, is that it grew too fast. Money was a problem - there was money, sure but by extending itself out to buy Emporia and then the Rome City campus it took on too much responsibility too fast and ran them with inexperienced people - "us". It was cute to say everyone had to "rise up" but hey - if it ain't working it ain't working. And given the number of times VPW canned and fired everyone every month and then rehired them all the next morning - it wasn't working. Unless you call a car that shuts down every mile and needs a jump, a car that "runs". Trusting in God to provide means that you do just that - you work within His guidance do just that - trust. That can mean waiting, for any number of reasons including taking the time to become the "faithful steward".
Water under the bridge now but an interesting topic.
I remember VPW talking about having a mortgage-burning party when they paid off the twi property. All that was talked about debt when I was an innie was that it was right to pay your debts. Period.
It's pretty easy for today's twi higher-ups to pooh-pooh debt. What financial worries do they have, for God's sake? LCM, who apparently started this whole anti-debt thing, never held a job before twi. He never had to pay rent. He was waited on hand and foot. LCM nursed at the boob of the way his entire adult life until he got the boot. I imagine it's been quite a rude awakening for him.
Sometimes I rummage through old threads and I found this one.
Wow, and to think I daren't buy a house (=going into debt) after they'd kicked me out - and I watched prices rise and rise.
Of course now they are falling and falling...
I bought a house and I pay less on mortgage than I would if I rented.
I found the house after months of searching "in my own strength" after I'd finally got mad with God and said if He really wanted me in this city, he had to do something about somewhere for me to live. Funny thing, but I found this house the very next day.
The finance to buy the house came together completely miraculously; I still don't know how it happened. Lot of amazing things happened there.
And now I am self-employed, He always makes sure there is money for everything I reasonably need inc the mortgage - and then some left, to give to others.
So glad that God has an eye on the future and knows what will be best for each one of us, long-term, in this lifetime.
Twinky, good for you!! Â I am so happy that you have your own home!!
The Way Nash leveraged financing through bank loans regularly to do it's business. Always did.
VPW would act like a mouse had eaten his cat when he talked about it, how uptight he was about having to mortgage property or assets. But HEW did, with his business. Floated money to support the Way.
He always made it sound like "back in the early years" as if it was a learning curve for him that he'd grown out of.
Buuuuuuut, that was in the 70's.....no early years there. That was during the growth bubble of the Way.
No one wants to be in debt over their means, have bills they can't pay, spending habits that don't reflect good money management and common sense.
The Way would never have gotten off the ground and to any state of self sufficiency without 1. loans and 2. other people's contributions. PFAL made $ from the donation/fee but it wasn't enough to finance properties, growth, salaries, all of that.
Now Martindale, something of a different story there.
He apparently felt that the Way had enough $$$$ flowing to put all the Way Corps membership on 'salary', basically make them all paid employees of the Way. It was this period and the subsequent years that I'd assume put him on the rabid "no debt" policy track - he didn't want the Way to bear the debts of others and then when that plan tanked he wanted to feel better about having screwed so many people over so he lowered the bar of what others should expect and do. No money, no job, no real resume' to speak of - you're going to need to get your tail working unless like Craig you have other people's money paying your way and/or family to hit on that will pay your way.
I only heard about it all second hand, I'd left the Way by then but -
Honestly - he and Howard must have never done the math. When I heard about it after it had failed I was shocked. He was nuts, to be kind. I can't imagine how he thought it was going to work - probably some boosted juiced formula of ROI.
Man, talk about naive. No heavy revvie there - what he did was like jumping off a bridge and expecting to land on your feet unharmed. If "God tells you" to do that, go for it. But you better have it in writing or you're going to be real sore real soon. As was he.
And his view of what was "good financial planning" was illustrated by the fact that - reportedly - the Way almost went bankrupt because Craig didn't wake up to what was going on until Howard Allen told him they were running out of money and had only another couple months of resources to pay out. That's just - ka razee too.
Beware all ye who enter - outside of a few well worn euphemisms and boy-howdies you can get from anywhere else, the Way gives terrible financial advice. Again - the "good" advice they give is available from 1,000's of other sources, including what your momma and daddy probably told you. They ain't pushing rocket science. Work, save, share what you can, collaborate as much as possible, spend wisely, partner considerately, borrow frugally, pay back timely. Repeat. Again. Doink.
Socks, great post!! Â Your mother didn't raise a dummy!!
You are so bad at this hide and seek game, Irony, silly goose! I see you.
Â
Â
Much has been written throughout these forums on the development of the unbiblical no debt doctrine and the wicked depths to which Loy took it. TWI still requires it today for wowzers and CORPS, IIRC.
I don't remember it in PFAL, but that doesn't mean it's not there. It was a hugely important doctrine for my fellowship commander who still masturbates to the imaginary 1942 promise. Because of this, I"m inclined to believe it started with Vic.
Did this error originate with victor paul wierwille, charlatan? Or did it originate with Loy?
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Patriot
More Quotes on Uncle Harry's Debt
"And it seemed from that day on, when I got the papers to the business, that God and I
agreed and everything began to blossom and proper (sp?). It was successful every hour
and every day. It seemed God was guiding and directing me to succeed, and He was...
By that time (1938) I had paid off the $30,000 debt and I did not need my dad's signature
anymore because I was on what is called the success road where everybody thoughy I was
wealthy - WHICH I WAS."
(pg 28 - Need I say anything? God actually directed him, even though he was in sin for
going into debt? He was wealthy but had to go into debt to do it? God would bless him
and twi by his debt? He never repented of his loans either.)
"Monthly I would have an interest payment to meet. Let's say that interest came due
on Tuesday night at 5 o'clock. I never missed an interest date. The people I borrowed
from were not concerned about my paying back the principle, but they did want their
interest on time. IT WAS A DEBT."
(pg 28 - no regrets, no repenting, no problem!
)
"What's the purpose of having a set time to met my needs? I learned to trust God in a
specific way. When Monday night before the payment was due came, maybe I still didn't
have the $50 or whatever the figure was supposed to be...that He (God) would see fit to
prosper me so I could pay my HONEST DEBT...He never failed me...I had the
interest money together right down to the penny."
(pg 29 - Debt is HONEST. God helped him pay it off. God prospered him and twi because of
Uncle Harry's HONEST debt).
*Velly Interesting - twi's guidance today would be for him to sell off his business regardless,
so that he could pay off ALL the debt at once...and be a Way Disciple!
"I remember the house that this young couple I mentioned was living in. They bought it for
$850. Just recently I saw the very same house, which makes it forty years older, sell for
$15,000 on auction. Tremendous change of dollar-power."
(pg 30 - Again, no condemnation for the mortgages, but noticed that home values appreciate
over time.)
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LornaDoone
Go to it Rosie.
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templelady
I see it now I see it in a vision------------
A believer lends his son money to go to business school
--the kid pays that off and dad cosigns for a loan so kid can start business 
. 
Kid goes on to found a multi million dollar corporation 
borrowing and lending huge sums to expand etc. 
Kid decides "why send all that money to TWI HQ 
-I'll form my own ministry and collect money for me 
as he stands in his squash outfit having just come off the court 
vision fades to a blurred stage with a large pulsating muticolored amoeba shape on the back wall
that's it !! their afraid if you become successful you'll find you don't need them after all
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outofdafog
that's it !! their afraid if you become successful you'll find you don't need them after all
Exactly temple lady. If they "allow" you to get involved in the corporate world and make money, their followers would probably discover just how phony LCM's spewing is and was about his ability to be the leader of a Fortune 500 company.
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Patriot
So the rumor has it that twi pulled Uncle Harry due to it showing he utilized
debt, and benefitted himself and twi. :blink:
Is it true or rumor? Anyone? Buller? :unsure:
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Belle
Patriot, this is an excellent thread thank you for taking the time to start it! I called TWI this morning and the bookstore lady, Ruth, said that they are still selling his book.
TWI wouldn't have the buildings it has, the property it has and the savings that it has if it weren't for THEM going into debt themselves. This documents it and they can't cover it up. They can quit selling the book, but the damage has been done. I wonder if they'll make everyone burn it on "Uncle Harry Day" to get rid of the evidence.
Or was UHD another one of those "old wineskins" that they got rid of under craiggers regime? I can't remember, but I don't think we celebrated it any more after the early 90's.
Thanks for typing up all these quotes from the book. I don't have mine anymore, so it was good to refresh the memory and to see in black & white the utter hypocracy.
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Belle
Sorry, Patriot, I think I killed your thread.
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frank123lol
Uncle Haryy day was changed to Burn the chaff day.They did not want to magnify Harry W
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George Aar
Patriot,
Re:"His bookkeeping got him his start in the
furniture business where he made millions."
I know this was always the WayWorld contention, but I kinda doubt it. I mean, I saw the little place where HEW did his upholstery work, I saw the shabby little cottage where his widow lived, and the cars he drove, etc. If that's the trappings of a millionaire, well, I'd be more than a little surprised.
I wonder if the assertion that Harry made so much money isn't more a product of WayWorld lore than of anything that really happened? Just a little dubious...
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Linda Z
Geo., I don't know if U. Harry made millions or not, but believe you me, I knew a few NK-area millionaires, and neither their clothes nor their cars nor their houses would ever have tipped you off to the kind of money they had.
I had several close friends among the locals in that neck of the woods. Some of them simply worked all their lives, never bought anything extravagant, and saved like crazy. They weren't even in business for themselves, but because of their frugality, they'll leave quite an inheritance. It's just the culture of that part of Ohio.
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Linda Z
But anyway, back to the topic:
I remember VPW talking about having a mortgage-burning party when they paid off the twi property. All that was talked about debt when I was an innie was that it was right to pay your debts. Period.
It's pretty easy for today's twi higher-ups to pooh-pooh debt. What financial worries do they have, for God's sake? LCM, who apparently started this whole anti-debt thing, never held a job before twi. He never had to pay rent. He was waited on hand and foot. LCM nursed at the boob of the way his entire adult life until he got the boot. I imagine it's been quite a rude awakening for him.
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frank123lol
him pretty heavily medicated.
Again,Those Ohio farmers were responsible for the Dow Chemical co. As the founder borrowed
from a bunch of farmers.
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Twinky
Sometimes I rummage through old threads and I found this one.
Wow, and to think I daren't buy a house (=going into debt) after they'd kicked me out - and I watched prices rise and rise.
Of course now they are falling and falling...
I bought a house and I pay less on mortgage than I would if I rented.
I found the house after months of searching "in my own strength" after I'd finally got mad with God and said if He really wanted me in this city, he had to do something about somewhere for me to live. Funny thing, but I found this house the very next day.
The finance to buy the house came together completely miraculously; I still don't know how it happened. Lot of amazing things happened there.
And now I am self-employed, He always makes sure there is money for everything I reasonably need inc the mortgage - and then some left, to give to others.
So glad that God has an eye on the future and knows what will be best for each one of us, long-term, in this lifetime.
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Ham
somehow, I've never found a house here, that I could call my own.. I've left a lot of possibilities..
I tried to find one once..
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chockfull
I think this is a common theme to people leaving the ministry. Bondage and fear over TWI's convoluted doctrine on debt. God pulling things together in spite of our fears. Deliverance. People just don't realize the bondage that you are under listening to TWI and obeying what they say. Many times it takes the shock of something personal for people to wake up to this. You realize that they (the leaders) certainly aren't living the way they are demanding you live. And you notice they don't really have much concern at all for you or your family. They simply actively demonstrate how much they don't care. Then you realize that the only reason they have any authority over you at all is because you let them. They you leave from under that authority. Then you realize that whatever authority it was they were lording over you with, it was certainly not instituted by God. Then freedom ensues.
About a month after we left I walked in to look at a house - just looking at options to get out of that stupid rental with all those memories about TWI people abusing us as guests in our home. I walked in this one place and walked through it and just felt this incredible sense of peace. Like peace I never had in the rental. I felt I could live there. So we did. God came through with finances even though we had no savings due to supporting all of those bloodsucking leech Pharisees in TWI for so many years at our own expense. Over the years living here we've formed great friendships with neighbors, loved the local schools, had many great cookouts that no TWI people were invited to, and built a new life. With real friends, not fake. With a real community, not fake.
So Twinky, I'm glad for you. I'm glad for myself. I'm sad for the people that haven't experienced this yet and are still living under the bondage of the Pharisees.
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socks
The Way Nash leveraged financing through bank loans regularly to do it's business. Always did.
VPW would act like a mouse had eaten his cat when he talked about it, how uptight he was about having to mortgage property or assets. But HEW did, with his business. Floated money to support the Way.
He always made it sound like "back in the early years" as if it was a learning curve for him that he'd grown out of.
Buuuuuuut, that was in the 70's.....no early years there. That was during the growth bubble of the Way.
No one wants to be in debt over their means, have bills they can't pay, spending habits that don't reflect good money management and common sense.
The Way would never have gotten off the ground and to any state of self sufficiency without 1. loans and 2. other people's contributions. PFAL made $ from the donation/fee but it wasn't enough to finance properties, growth, salaries, all of that.
Now Martindale, something of a different story there.
He apparently felt that the Way had enough $$$$ flowing to put all the Way Corps membership on 'salary', basically make them all paid employees of the Way. It was this period and the subsequent years that I'd assume put him on the rabid "no debt" policy track - he didn't want the Way to bear the debts of others and then when that plan tanked he wanted to feel better about having screwed so many people over so he lowered the bar of what others should expect and do. No money, no job, no real resume' to speak of - you're going to need to get your tail working unless like Craig you have other people's money paying your way and/or family to hit on that will pay your way.
I only heard about it all second hand, I'd left the Way by then but -
Honestly - he and Howard must have never done the math. When I heard about it after it had failed I was shocked. He was nuts, to be kind. I can't imagine how he thought it was going to work - probably some boosted juiced formula of ROI.
Man, talk about naive. No heavy revvie there - what he did was like jumping off a bridge and expecting to land on your feet unharmed. If "God tells you" to do that, go for it. But you better have it in writing or you're going to be real sore real soon. As was he.
And his view of what was "good financial planning" was illustrated by the fact that - reportedly - the Way almost went bankrupt because Craig didn't wake up to what was going on until Howard Allen told him they were running out of money and had only another couple months of resources to pay out. That's just - ka razee too.
Beware all ye who enter - outside of a few well worn euphemisms and boy-howdies you can get from anywhere else, the Way gives terrible financial advice. Again - the "good" advice they give is available from 1,000's of other sources, including what your momma and daddy probably told you. They ain't pushing rocket science. Work, save, share what you can, collaborate as much as possible, spend wisely, partner considerately, borrow frugally, pay back timely. Repeat. Again. Doink.
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excathedra
"uncle" harry grabbed my breasts and declared "HOW YOUNG AND FIRM" i ran away
i also did way marketing frikking selling books door to door in north carolina
bye for now
uggghhhh
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Twinky
The rapid "no debt" policy was early 90s. Salaried WC came somewhat later, mid or late 90s.
I know one person who wanted to enter the WC - had a lovely house, small mortgage, careful in handling money; to enter the WC he had to be debt-free - and ended up selling the house at least $50,000 under value. He could've rented it out for way in excess of the mortgage - TWI could in fact have made money on it, on tithes on the rental income, it coulda paid this person's way through TWI...but no. What sort of financial management is that? To compound the injury, this person didn't even survive the first year of WC.
But who would want WC with ties to an area - with a house, kids in good schools, roots in the community...
I'm a bit ambivalent about whether or not people should incur debt. I do a lot of debt counselling and see the misery that out of control debts causes in the lives of individuals and families. People need to learn better financial management. For some people - perhaps they should never ever ever have any kind of debt. For others - a carefully thought out debt may lead to a much better physical life. Like it or not, western culture is very debt-oriented and it would be much better to acknowledge that and encourage proper financial planning/management and responsibility than to legalistically ban any form of debt.
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Happyasaclam
I clearly remember LCM on a Corps Night stating that things had become financially strained from HQ because of the full-time Way Corps status "revelation." But that this was NOT because we (as a ministry) were not "living within our means" ... Oh no! It wasn't that. It was the TAXES! Yes ... the payroll TAXES. That was the problem. As if these were a mysterious surprise that no-one could have anticipated ... a trick of the adversary.
In fact, anyone in business understands the tax-cost of employees. It's not a mystery but federal code, set in stone and as obvious as the time of day. If you have employees, you pay these or the government shuts. you. down... and fast. And the percentages are clear and understandable with an 8th grade education. The pay deadlines are clear. Nothing mysterious or vague. Someone did not do their homework ... their arithmetic.
So staff were "asked" (ie required) to take another 10% cut in pay - off their already determined need-basis.
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socks
Innterestin'...........and The bible teaches in Romans, pay what's owed - taxes, honor, give all their due and in fact "owe" nothing by paying "everything", that is to "Love", which will thereby do all that's required. So while Craig may not have liked the tax codes and cost to do business - join the club, but there is a cost of doing business and the Way was a business. He just didn't like running it according to the requirements and direction that's given in the very book he publicly "taught" from.
Uncle Harry-san knew how to juggle finances and debt. He did it very well. He was a "sharp" business man in his day.
I remember when we lived there, and about 1975, we went to a local auction that we'd heard he and some others from the Way were going to. It was all locals, a few Wayfers, and it seemed business as usual, 40 -50 people looking over the estate stuff and what was being sold. We were looking around for furniture and stuff. Then HEW got there and it ran through the crowd, we could hear it .........."Harry's here, he's looking to buy...."....."I saw him, not sure what he's looking for, he's here though"..........there was a buzz around his presence and of course his check book. Action, H.E.'s here...
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, rather that's the result of his years of doing business in the area and being successful. If he'd arrived and owed everyone money or been a rube no one would have cared.
My biggest lesson learned, looking back to how the Way built itself that first decade after PFAL was in the can, is that it grew too fast. Money was a problem - there was money, sure but by extending itself out to buy Emporia and then the Rome City campus it took on too much responsibility too fast and ran them with inexperienced people - "us". It was cute to say everyone had to "rise up" but hey - if it ain't working it ain't working. And given the number of times VPW canned and fired everyone every month and then rehired them all the next morning - it wasn't working. Unless you call a car that shuts down every mile and needs a jump, a car that "runs". Trusting in God to provide means that you do just that - you work within His guidance do just that - trust. That can mean waiting, for any number of reasons including taking the time to become the "faithful steward".
Water under the bridge now but an interesting topic.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Linda, what a smart cookie you are!! Â
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, good for you!! Â I am so happy that you have your own home!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Socks, great post!! Â Your mother didn't raise a dummy!!
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph.
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You are so bad at this hide and seek game, Irony, silly goose! I see you.
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Much has been written throughout these forums on the development of the unbiblical no debt doctrine and the wicked depths to which Loy took it. TWI still requires it today for wowzers and CORPS, IIRC.
I don't remember it in PFAL, but that doesn't mean it's not there. It was a hugely important doctrine for my fellowship commander who still masturbates to the imaginary 1942 promise. Because of this, I"m inclined to believe it started with Vic.
Did this error originate with victor paul wierwille, charlatan? Or did it originate with Loy?
A simple statement of fact will suffice.
Many thanks.
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