Im also chas for your misery, your right it is no way to live.
yet try to tell somone caught up in the lifestyle that it can be better.
I have and im the cold bitter one alone without the love of God.
I do not have a solution but I know it is better in many situations to sit by and watch that type of mess than try to change it before the partner believes life can be better.
I do not get the why .
but I see these types of relationships plenty outside of the way as well.
somone please tell me what you get out of being in love like that please.
It amazes me still that the husband was supposed to love his wife like the way Jesus Christ loved the church. I never understood that whole power trip thing over another person no matter what their so called "rank and file" was. Being brothers and sisters in Christ was just another way twi twisted the scripture. They taught that but did not in any way live it.
Chas that had to be awful and I am so glad you are free now to go do anything you need to do it and do it in your own way.
Thanks for the responses, although I hope noone thinks I posted what I did for sympathy - I'm so far removed from that now that it's not even funny. After my divorce was final and I started dating again, I remember thinking, "What will I ABSOLUTELY NOT put up with this time?" In short, I needed someone who let me be human, and let me be myself. Mathman (that was hubby's handle on Waydale) does all that - he lets me have a pretty long leash - I have my hobbies and interests - he doesn't butt in. I do likewise for him.
Topoftheworld - No problem with your question - I've asked it to myself several times over to try to figure out what the hell happened.
Xxxxx grew up in an abusive home where his father had a drinking problem and was an angry drunk. I think Xxxxx saw that example of how his parents encountered each other and brought that into our relationship, although he did not really have a drinking problem. He would drink, and could get a little verbal when he was feelin' no pain, but never took a swipe at me when he was drunk. I think I saw him in this condition maybe four times in six years. Perhaps his lack of respect for women or a spouse came from that - I don't know.
I do believe that having the scripture about submission, and the way that TWI taught how a husband and wife were supposed to act -- like she would lick his boots any minute and talk to him about every thing and make a schedule with him so that he would know her every move and how she would have sex with him 3x's a week, as that was what leadership recommended to WC, so that's what peons should aspire to... (oh, no... I'm not making this up or kidding!) -- I think those things were just extra tools to do the damage. I know things would get worse whenever there were teachings - like the BeLIEver's Family Class by LCM and DM - whoo-boy, those were tough because Xxxxx would think he needed to tighten the reins a little more then and I thought I was going to suffocate sometimes!
Of course, every now and then I'd come up for air, try to tell him what I thought or try to do what I thought was right (for me) and get totally shot out of the saddle - that's when he'd call leadership to tattle, and I'd be called on the carpet - like going to the principal's office. I knew I was "kicking against the pricks" but sometimes just had to do it -- I was too strong willed (not me!) and too opinionated (suprised, are you?) not to... So, I probably "asked" for some of it...
So, I don't think there's an easy answer to if I was mistreated because I was [a] a spouse; a women; [c] a believer - I think it's a YES on all levels. I think he would mistreat any woman today if he was to remarry, and I think he would still use scripture to isolate her, intimidate her, and utilize her in whatever way he thought was best - according to The Word - of course.
Even LCM said (80s sometime) that it was UNNATURAL to not strongly resist any attempt to coerce you into denying what you truly believe and feel, or something like that. So when he and his goons did exactly that in the 90s, this qualifies as "compelling to blaspheme" IMO.
Dang, Chas!! If I didn't know better, I'd think we married the same guy.
I now tell people I was "Sleeping With the Enemy" - I'm no Julia Roberts, but I sure feel like the wife she portrayed in the movie.
My ex was a neat-freak and "cleanliness is next to godliness" - our house has to be able to pass a white glove test at any moment. I am sooooo not a neat person! This was a major struggle for me - in addition to cooking, cleaning, working full time, doing all the shopping and all the TWI demands. I have absolutely no idea how married women with kids managed in TWI. I feel so sorry for them!!
Meister was a walking Bible, like your husband. He was definitely a "company man" and when Moneyhands or any other leader said jump, he jumped as high and as long as he could. He expected the same of me. AND for me to react that way to his requests, too. As a result, he took everyone else's word over mine. He obeyed instruction from leadership unquestioningly and when i would say that was too much of a demand on our time - I was too tired or otherwise "buck the system" - he would scold, belittle and shame me into "obeying".
He was definitely a wimp when it came to TWI leaders. I remember one particular incident where we were fed up (both of us) with the mis-information, lack of information and just plain disregard for us by our HFC (a WC-fixin' to be and roomie with the Moneyhands). I told her what both of us had been thinking for quite some time - after TWO YEARS of pleading to not have to be assistant HFC's anymore - and it wasn't pretty. We were called into a "confrontation" session with this gal and our BC's. Of course it was the three of them against the two of us. On the way over there, we agreed that we were right, we were fed up with the way we were being treated and that it was wrong.
Well, as soon as we got there, he started staring at the floor - looked like he was gonna get sick - turned pale as the snow and never looked up or said a word till he apologized and looked like he was going to puke on their carpet. They then started in on me. I tried to defend us, but it was just no use. Now it was the whole room against me. I have never in my life been so disappointed in someone. This was MY HUSBAND - MY SAFE PLACE - MY SUPPORTER - MY HELPMEET - MY BEST FRIEND - MY PARTNER - MY TEAMMATE - MY BODYGUARD - this was the biggest letdown I can ever remember in my whole life.
Everything I did that was the least bit questionable was quickly reported to someone - anyone. Of course, it was to HELP me to be the "woman of God" that he KNEW I could be. <_<
When I would get yelled at for something and try to stand up for myself, I, too, was accused of "not submitting" - of being stubborn (and "stubborness is just as bad as witchcraft, doncha know?) and "just like my mother". I was acting out from under his protection and anything could happen to one of us because of ME. He's a cop, so he was afraid I was going to get HIM killed in the line of duty with my disobedience.
I can't BEGIN to tell you the compromises that I made - to myself, my family, etc., - during that time. I'm just talking about the emotional crap here - never mind the physical - that's another thread...
It's sickening to think about the compromises I made to "keep peace" when I was really being kept under his thumb. As a wife, I was beaten about the head and shoulders DAILY with verses about submitting and how I wasn't yaddy, yaddy, yaddy.... I could do no right. When I did do something right, it wasn't quite good enough or with the "right kind of heart" - HUH?
Once I shared with him how stressful it was trying to live up to his expectations and, with the example of my housecleaning never being "good enough". He just looked at me, all confused about why I would be stressed about that, and said, "But you NEVER get the house very clean. Why is it bothering you now?" Maybe because he always made a point of telling me how it never got clean enough when I did it???
I had to load the dishwashwer the correct way (all spoons go together, all forks go together, etc.) - I had to turn the coffee pot handle "just so" in the morning and line the handle of that up with the handle to the coffee mug AND have the spoon on the same angle too. I had to vacuum so the tracks were "just so" on the carpet and then rake all the carpet tracks out with the "indoor" rake (he finally dropped that one).
He ended up doing a lot of things around the house just because I never did them well enough. It got to where I didn't trust myself to do anything right. I couldn't make the smallest, most insignificant decision without running it by him.
I can't really blame him totally, though. This is what he was taught in TWI and he is the ultimate student. It's the example he had all around him. J1m Densm*re was up a creek when his wife, B@bette had surgery one year. He didn't know how to clean the house, make his own coffee, cook his own meals, scratch his onw foot, etc. We had to give him a one month training course on taking care of himself because he never had to do that before. He was used to being waited on hand and foot. Same thing with Moneyhands. He's really going to be up a creek if he ever has to function without Dooty around.
If TWI is still teaching the same crap they were 10 years ago - and they are. Then, how have they changed? They haven't. Are they kinder and gentler? Very doubtful. And if you carry that logic onward, it means that women are still being held under the thumb of a "believing" husband who abusively uses scripture ("the present truth") to his advantage to lord over his wife in a power trip.
Sorry, but that ain't no marriage - and it's NO way to LIVE!
They were still teaching this stuff just two years ago, Chas. I suspect Boob is still eating off his china and telling Dooty how much she can spend on curtains for the new flat in the UK.
I've posted this before, but for the sake of any newbies...
You could combine the descriptions of Belle's and Chas's husbands and be describing mine exactly.
He tried so hard to cover up the fact that he was a spineless wimp that he was always having to PROVE what a spiritual man he was... by twi's definition, of course. This meant: He was always right and if he knew I was right, he would say he was done discussing it, and get furious if I kept trying to discuss it. It meant that no matter how many jobs I might be working I was still expected to do all the "wifely" chores around the house (meaning EVERYTHING). And if he got in trouble with leadership (which happened often enough) he was quick to blame anything and everything but himself, and that usually included me. He literally dictated the schedule I kept, the food I ate, how much time I spent with my friends, what I volunteered for (twi, of course)...
The stupid thing was, in the rare moments when he just relaxed and forgot about trying to be some skewed ideal of a man, he was a really decent, funny, bright, caring guy. He just didn't let that happen very often.
He didn't come from an abusive family, but from an extremely distant and controlling one. I don't think he ever felt good about himself, and therefore was constantly trying to fill that hole in his soul with SOMETHING. I endured all kinds of bad habits and totally selfish behaviors, and got nowhere trying to help him see how self-destructive he was being. But, hey, let the leadership say the same exact things to him, and he'd act like it was new revelation. So frustrating!! And disappointing. I really did want the marriage to work, but eventually you just realize you are just a possession... like a car or something. No, he actually took better care of his car than he did of me.
I realize this may sound like I'm a big, whiney witch. But the fact is, I was a GIVER and he was a TAKER. I get satisfaction by making other people happy. And he got satisfaction by doing whatever the ehll he wanted, consequences be dinged. Even after I left him, all he could talk about was what I was doing to HIM. Unbelievable.
We were at my mother's house the summer after my dad had died, and just before we were to go out WOW. My mother had planned for us to go to the Castle In The Clouds in NH, as Xxxxx had never seen it and we thought he'd appreciate the outing - it's beautiful. My mother had also invited my brother along, who also happens to be gay - not openly at all, but it was known within the family - but very hush hush. He's a very manly man - you'd never know unless he told you - and he doesn't discuss it. I respect that.
Well, this was TWI 1993. You can only imagine that homo teachings going on within the ministry at that time. That was the time that the big homo hunt was starting - and it was ugly, lemme tell you.
As we were discussing our plans that day, Xxxxx became very upset about the whole thing. Finally, after begging him to tell me what was going on, he said he didn't want to be in the "same space as a sodomite" - meaning, my brother. He stated that he wasn't going to be in the company of my brother, and if I went with him that I would be a homo-sympathizer, which if you were around TWI at that time, you knew that meant that you were considered as bad as being homo, if not worse (how they figured that I didn't get, but anywho...) Xxxxx was almost out of control - in front of my mother - about this. It was nuts and she was scared to death! It was clear to me that Xxxxx was making me choose between him (and the ministry) and my family. I flat out told him that if he forced the decision that he would loose!
So, while he was at my mother's house (remember - she'd just lost my dad less than 6 months previous) - he gets on the telephone to our old LC and spills his guts as to what was going on. I knew I was in deep doo-doo then - there was no doubt about it. He was told to keep the peace while at my mom's - don't make waves - and that they'd deal with me afterward... (We were headed to the ROA to go WOW after this - they never ended up 'dealing' with it - ha!)
Well, it seems my brother was also in earshot of all this - unbeknownst to us. About 30 minutes later, my brother came up with some excuse why he wasn't going. Of course that's when Xxxxx goes, "It was the bright spiritual light that drove him away!" (to me, he said this.)
If I'd have been smart, I would have pushed Xxxxx off a balcony at the Castle In The Clouds and stayed with my mom.... Nope, dummy me went WOW with Mr. Wonderful!
(By the way - my brother and I are great friends to this day - we never discuss his personal life, but he KNOWS he's always welcome at my house.)
To be honest, I was looking for "direction and guidance" when I got married. I really didn't have a problem with my husband taking the lead and would probably still have that mind set if I had married a guy who was upright and responsible and gave back, even a little. It's only fair to admit that.
But over the years, as his incompetence and utter lack of ability to control himself or direct his own life in any kind of positive direction became more and more evident, and as I GREW as a person and gained confidence in my own skills at work and in the home and as a mom, it got harder and harder to take it when he "critiqued" EVERYTHING I did... it didn't matter how hard I tried, or how much effort I expended, or even if the local and state leadership told him (which they did a few times) how lucky he was to have married me... nothing I ever did was above criticism. Of course, to him, it wasn't criticism. It was "chosing best over good" and "striving for excellence". It's just that it was aimed non-stop in my direction and never in his own:
The meal was okay (he ate every last bit) but I could have seasoned it better. In fact, he'd like it if I never made that meal again. It just wasn't to his taste.
The house was clean (except for his socks laying on the floor in the living room) but when was I gonna get around to getting his shirts ironed?
Yes, I washed the dishes after dinner but did I really need to air dry them before putting them away? (Of course, my suggestion that he get up off his duff and help dry them was met with stoney silence.)
The laundry got done, but dang, he forgot to clean out his pockets again, and I missed it and washed his little notes (that twi promoted to help you be efficient in your use of time). Where was my attention to detail?
Oh my... I could go on and on and on and on... (just when you think you've put it all behind you...)
Oh, Chas, my heart cringes reading about your brother - my brother and my mother were the targets of my ex. My little brother is a bleeding heart liberal with lots of "Eastern" philosophical views on life due to spending so much time in Taiwan and travelling China, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and other countries in that area - mostly areas where white American men are NOT welcome.
He was so friggin' rude to them and resented anytime my family did something nice for me. He would gladly accept their expensive gifts and paid vacations so they could spend time with us, but if they wanted to do something just for me? Forget it. Not allowed. I think he was jealous because he never got that kind of love, treatement and gifts from his family - and couldn't even spend time with them after Moneyhands told him that his dad was possessed and he needed to cut communication with the whole family.
Thank goodness our families realized that we weren't ourselves and are able to forgive us and move on.
The stupid thing was, in the rare moments when he just relaxed and forgot about trying to be some skewed ideal of a man, he was a really decent, funny, bright, caring guy. He just didn't let that happen very often.
He didn't come from an abusive family, but from an extremely distant and controlling one. I don't think he ever felt good about himself, and therefore was constantly trying to fill that hole in his soul with SOMETHING. I endured all kinds of bad habits and totally selfish behaviors, and got nowhere trying to help him see how self-destructive he was being. But, hey, let the leadership say the same exact things to him, and he'd act like it was new revelation. So frustrating!! And disappointing. I really did want the marriage to work, but eventually you just realize you are just a possession... like a car or something. No, he actually took better care of his car than he did of me.
The Highway, that sounds like my ex, too! He was a blast when we were dating and when he didn't have his TWI-face on, he could be a lot of fun. I wonder if it's the responsibility that TWI puts on the husband being ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that caused them to snap into being @$$holes...
My ex looked great on paper - he did do the laundry, wash the dishes, vacuum the house, take care of the yard, keep up with maintenance on the cars, etc. He was a dream husband in that regard, but he was a police man and home two-four days a week all day, too.
It's just that, like you said, I was one more thing to take care of - yet another responsibility. There wasn't any gentleness, kindness, loving, attention given to me unless it was to point out something I had done wrong or needed to "work on". It was tough doing laundry for the first time in eight years, but I'd much rather do my own laundry than have to live with the Ice Man and his constant reminders of how inadequate I am.
It seems in that area TWI has not kept up with the times. Still treating the wives as subservient and second-class citizens. jeez.
I would hate to see my mother, sister or daughter being treated like that so I don't and am not going to even treat my girlfriend like that (of course, she'll kick my arse if I so much ever try it ).
They say that the "Word" says it . OK... if that's what the "Word" says, then how about Treat unto others like you like treating unto you. If the "Word" doesn't say or imply that, then I am sorry that they are hypocrites ranting about "the Love of God" when they are not even showing it.
Ah God, the problem of the submission is one of the biggest cultural problems because the devil promotes rebellion among women. You know that we Mexicans are very machos, but to be a Way believer is different to be a macho, because you should love your wife like Christ love the church.
I always want to married a grad but the grads that were available were very entangles with the things of the world. One thing is that you are a grad the other is that you follow the standards. The commitment TWI ask is a very difficult task, very discipline, is not impossible to fulfilled buy you have to left a lot of things outside to live light. To leave how the Way wants to. It is very boring to confront the love one every time.
For I being reading the GSC women are very discipline and good believers, wonderful women of God. The husbands were the very mad, stupid ones, because they never appreciate what they have. I fell sorry for them .
Oh dear, ladies, aren't we glad those days are over!
My second hubby tried to control me, but I was having none of it, oopsie for him! He was very jealous of any guy near me. On TWO occasions, he told off guy believers for touching me -- not sexually, mind you: one gave me a friendly push as I went up stairs, the other jokingly put his leg on my knee when I told him to make himself at home at our outdoor fellowship. He later "confronted" those guys, apparently so nastily that they never came to my fellowship again.
On another occasion, I was speaking to a male colleague on the gymnastics floor at work. Next thing I know, hubby has shown up, and he's on the floor (where he wasn't allowed), staring at me! 'Course, the standard he felt I should follow did not pertain to him, as I found out when I came upon him sitting knee-to-knee with a young student of his photography class, or another time when he was moaning as a female Twiggie gave him a shoulder rub.
At the time, I had no idea where this guy got such ethics, as I had been out of TWI since the mid-80s, and knew nothing about the sexual hijinks of the BOT. Waydale clued me in.
Ex-hubby went back "in" about the time we broke up. (Yeah, yeah, I drove him to it!;)) But the fun didn't end there. He has sent me a letter more than once since, saying that I should "be reconciled to my husband." He has invoked the name of Jesus Christ in telling me what I should or shouldn't do. I guess he still thinks he owns me somehow. :blink:
Now, since he was my second marriage, I guess he meant I should return to my FIRST husband! :D Boy, his wife is sure gonna be surprised to see me....
There's more, and it's weirder, but you get the idea.
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excathedra
i'm truly sorry you had to go through such horrendous callous inhumane treatment, chas
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pond
Im also chas for your misery, your right it is no way to live.
yet try to tell somone caught up in the lifestyle that it can be better.
I have and im the cold bitter one alone without the love of God.
I do not have a solution but I know it is better in many situations to sit by and watch that type of mess than try to change it before the partner believes life can be better.
I do not get the why .
but I see these types of relationships plenty outside of the way as well.
somone please tell me what you get out of being in love like that please.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
gee chas
what bulls@@t
you endured
sorry
you called him someone
i would call him something
we live only an hour or so away from each other
i would love to meet you someday my cousin is onion eater
pvt me if you wish
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justloafing
It amazes me still that the husband was supposed to love his wife like the way Jesus Christ loved the church. I never understood that whole power trip thing over another person no matter what their so called "rank and file" was. Being brothers and sisters in Christ was just another way twi twisted the scripture. They taught that but did not in any way live it.
Chas that had to be awful and I am so glad you are free now to go do anything you need to do it and do it in your own way.
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topoftheworld
Un Frigging Believable, Chas! I'm sorry you had to deal with that. Of course, you're much better off, although it had to have been so painful.
I'm curious about something. I hope I ask this the right way.
Was his behaviour because he was reacting to you as
1) Spouse.
2) A woman.
or
3) A believer.
Have there been circumstances where a husband has been the questioner, and the wife treated him as you were treated?
Just wondering if TWI gave special dispentation to men vs women when disputes arose.
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ChasUFarley
Thanks for the responses, although I hope noone thinks I posted what I did for sympathy - I'm so far removed from that now that it's not even funny. After my divorce was final and I started dating again, I remember thinking, "What will I ABSOLUTELY NOT put up with this time?" In short, I needed someone who let me be human, and let me be myself. Mathman (that was hubby's handle on Waydale) does all that - he lets me have a pretty long leash - I have my hobbies and interests - he doesn't butt in. I do likewise for him.
Topoftheworld - No problem with your question - I've asked it to myself several times over to try to figure out what the hell happened.
Xxxxx grew up in an abusive home where his father had a drinking problem and was an angry drunk. I think Xxxxx saw that example of how his parents encountered each other and brought that into our relationship, although he did not really have a drinking problem. He would drink, and could get a little verbal when he was feelin' no pain, but never took a swipe at me when he was drunk. I think I saw him in this condition maybe four times in six years. Perhaps his lack of respect for women or a spouse came from that - I don't know.
I do believe that having the scripture about submission, and the way that TWI taught how a husband and wife were supposed to act -- like she would lick his boots any minute and talk to him about every thing and make a schedule with him so that he would know her every move and how she would have sex with him 3x's a week, as that was what leadership recommended to WC, so that's what peons should aspire to... (oh, no... I'm not making this up or kidding!) -- I think those things were just extra tools to do the damage. I know things would get worse whenever there were teachings - like the BeLIEver's Family Class by LCM and DM - whoo-boy, those were tough because Xxxxx would think he needed to tighten the reins a little more then and I thought I was going to suffocate sometimes!
Of course, every now and then I'd come up for air, try to tell him what I thought or try to do what I thought was right (for me) and get totally shot out of the saddle - that's when he'd call leadership to tattle, and I'd be called on the carpet - like going to the principal's office. I knew I was "kicking against the pricks" but sometimes just had to do it -- I was too strong willed (not me!) and too opinionated (suprised, are you?) not to... So, I probably "asked" for some of it...
So, I don't think there's an easy answer to if I was mistreated because I was [a] a spouse; a women; [c] a believer - I think it's a YES on all levels. I think he would mistreat any woman today if he was to remarry, and I think he would still use scripture to isolate her, intimidate her, and utilize her in whatever way he thought was best - according to The Word - of course.
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johniam
Even LCM said (80s sometime) that it was UNNATURAL to not strongly resist any attempt to coerce you into denying what you truly believe and feel, or something like that. So when he and his goons did exactly that in the 90s, this qualifies as "compelling to blaspheme" IMO.
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Belle
Dang, Chas!! If I didn't know better, I'd think we married the same guy.
I now tell people I was "Sleeping With the Enemy" - I'm no Julia Roberts, but I sure feel like the wife she portrayed in the movie.
My ex was a neat-freak and "cleanliness is next to godliness" - our house has to be able to pass a white glove test at any moment. I am sooooo not a neat person! This was a major struggle for me - in addition to cooking, cleaning, working full time, doing all the shopping and all the TWI demands. I have absolutely no idea how married women with kids managed in TWI. I feel so sorry for them!!
Meister was a walking Bible, like your husband. He was definitely a "company man" and when Moneyhands or any other leader said jump, he jumped as high and as long as he could. He expected the same of me. AND for me to react that way to his requests, too. As a result, he took everyone else's word over mine. He obeyed instruction from leadership unquestioningly and when i would say that was too much of a demand on our time - I was too tired or otherwise "buck the system" - he would scold, belittle and shame me into "obeying".
He was definitely a wimp when it came to TWI leaders. I remember one particular incident where we were fed up (both of us) with the mis-information, lack of information and just plain disregard for us by our HFC (a WC-fixin' to be and roomie with the Moneyhands). I told her what both of us had been thinking for quite some time - after TWO YEARS of pleading to not have to be assistant HFC's anymore - and it wasn't pretty. We were called into a "confrontation" session with this gal and our BC's. Of course it was the three of them against the two of us. On the way over there, we agreed that we were right, we were fed up with the way we were being treated and that it was wrong.
Well, as soon as we got there, he started staring at the floor - looked like he was gonna get sick - turned pale as the snow and never looked up or said a word till he apologized and looked like he was going to puke on their carpet. They then started in on me. I tried to defend us, but it was just no use. Now it was the whole room against me. I have never in my life been so disappointed in someone. This was MY HUSBAND - MY SAFE PLACE - MY SUPPORTER - MY HELPMEET - MY BEST FRIEND - MY PARTNER - MY TEAMMATE - MY BODYGUARD - this was the biggest letdown I can ever remember in my whole life.
Everything I did that was the least bit questionable was quickly reported to someone - anyone. Of course, it was to HELP me to be the "woman of God" that he KNEW I could be. <_<
When I would get yelled at for something and try to stand up for myself, I, too, was accused of "not submitting" - of being stubborn (and "stubborness is just as bad as witchcraft, doncha know?) and "just like my mother". I was acting out from under his protection and anything could happen to one of us because of ME. He's a cop, so he was afraid I was going to get HIM killed in the line of duty with my disobedience.
It's sickening to think about the compromises I made to "keep peace" when I was really being kept under his thumb. As a wife, I was beaten about the head and shoulders DAILY with verses about submitting and how I wasn't yaddy, yaddy, yaddy.... I could do no right. When I did do something right, it wasn't quite good enough or with the "right kind of heart" - HUH?Once I shared with him how stressful it was trying to live up to his expectations and, with the example of my housecleaning never being "good enough". He just looked at me, all confused about why I would be stressed about that, and said, "But you NEVER get the house very clean. Why is it bothering you now?"
Maybe because he always made a point of telling me how it never got clean enough when I did it???
I had to load the dishwashwer the correct way (all spoons go together, all forks go together, etc.) - I had to turn the coffee pot handle "just so" in the morning and line the handle of that up with the handle to the coffee mug AND have the spoon on the same angle too. I had to vacuum so the tracks were "just so" on the carpet and then rake all the carpet tracks out with the "indoor" rake (he finally dropped that one).
He ended up doing a lot of things around the house just because I never did them well enough. It got to where I didn't trust myself to do anything right. I couldn't make the smallest, most insignificant decision without running it by him.
I can't really blame him totally, though. This is what he was taught in TWI and he is the ultimate student. It's the example he had all around him. J1m Densm*re was up a creek when his wife, B@bette had surgery one year. He didn't know how to clean the house, make his own coffee, cook his own meals, scratch his onw foot, etc. We had to give him a one month training course on taking care of himself because he never had to do that before. He was used to being waited on hand and foot. Same thing with Moneyhands. He's really going to be up a creek if he ever has to function without Dooty around.
They were still teaching this stuff just two years ago, Chas. I suspect Boob is still eating off his china and telling Dooty how much she can spend on curtains for the new flat in the UK.
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Rejoice
YIKES----I think we were all married to the same guy.
I hadn't thought about these things in years. So glad I'm out of all of it!!
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oldiesman
I just got an email from STFI about this subject and thought it'd be appropos to share:
Healthy Submission
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ex10
hey, oldies, that is an excellent article. Thanks for the link.
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TheHighWay
I've posted this before, but for the sake of any newbies...
You could combine the descriptions of Belle's and Chas's husbands and be describing mine exactly.
He tried so hard to cover up the fact that he was a spineless wimp that he was always having to PROVE what a spiritual man he was... by twi's definition, of course. This meant: He was always right and if he knew I was right, he would say he was done discussing it, and get furious if I kept trying to discuss it. It meant that no matter how many jobs I might be working I was still expected to do all the "wifely" chores around the house (meaning EVERYTHING). And if he got in trouble with leadership (which happened often enough) he was quick to blame anything and everything but himself, and that usually included me. He literally dictated the schedule I kept, the food I ate, how much time I spent with my friends, what I volunteered for (twi, of course)...
The stupid thing was, in the rare moments when he just relaxed and forgot about trying to be some skewed ideal of a man, he was a really decent, funny, bright, caring guy. He just didn't let that happen very often.
He didn't come from an abusive family, but from an extremely distant and controlling one. I don't think he ever felt good about himself, and therefore was constantly trying to fill that hole in his soul with SOMETHING. I endured all kinds of bad habits and totally selfish behaviors, and got nowhere trying to help him see how self-destructive he was being. But, hey, let the leadership say the same exact things to him, and he'd act like it was new revelation. So frustrating!! And disappointing. I really did want the marriage to work, but eventually you just realize you are just a possession... like a car or something. No, he actually took better care of his car than he did of me.
I realize this may sound like I'm a big, whiney witch. But the fact is, I was a GIVER and he was a TAKER. I get satisfaction by making other people happy. And he got satisfaction by doing whatever the ehll he wanted, consequences be dinged. Even after I left him, all he could talk about was what I was doing to HIM. Unbelievable.
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dmiller
If I had ever tried that with my ex, she'd a CLOCKED me!!
(Rightfully so, I might add!) ;)
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ChasUFarley
Just curious...
Any men have this happen to them that anyone knows of - first hand or otherwise?
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ChasUFarley
We were at my mother's house the summer after my dad had died, and just before we were to go out WOW. My mother had planned for us to go to the Castle In The Clouds in NH, as Xxxxx had never seen it and we thought he'd appreciate the outing - it's beautiful. My mother had also invited my brother along, who also happens to be gay - not openly at all, but it was known within the family - but very hush hush. He's a very manly man - you'd never know unless he told you - and he doesn't discuss it. I respect that.
Well, this was TWI 1993. You can only imagine that homo teachings going on within the ministry at that time. That was the time that the big homo hunt was starting - and it was ugly, lemme tell you.
As we were discussing our plans that day, Xxxxx became very upset about the whole thing. Finally, after begging him to tell me what was going on, he said he didn't want to be in the "same space as a sodomite" - meaning, my brother. He stated that he wasn't going to be in the company of my brother, and if I went with him that I would be a homo-sympathizer, which if you were around TWI at that time, you knew that meant that you were considered as bad as being homo, if not worse (how they figured that I didn't get, but anywho...) Xxxxx was almost out of control - in front of my mother - about this. It was nuts and she was scared to death! It was clear to me that Xxxxx was making me choose between him (and the ministry) and my family. I flat out told him that if he forced the decision that he would loose!
So, while he was at my mother's house (remember - she'd just lost my dad less than 6 months previous) - he gets on the telephone to our old LC and spills his guts as to what was going on. I knew I was in deep doo-doo then - there was no doubt about it. He was told to keep the peace while at my mom's - don't make waves - and that they'd deal with me afterward... (We were headed to the ROA to go WOW after this - they never ended up 'dealing' with it - ha!)
Well, it seems my brother was also in earshot of all this - unbeknownst to us. About 30 minutes later, my brother came up with some excuse why he wasn't going. Of course that's when Xxxxx goes, "It was the bright spiritual light that drove him away!" (to me, he said this.)
If I'd have been smart, I would have pushed Xxxxx off a balcony at the Castle In The Clouds and stayed with my mom.... Nope, dummy me went WOW with Mr. Wonderful!
(By the way - my brother and I are great friends to this day - we never discuss his personal life, but he KNOWS he's always welcome at my house.)
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TheHighWay
dmiller,
To be honest, I was looking for "direction and guidance" when I got married. I really didn't have a problem with my husband taking the lead and would probably still have that mind set if I had married a guy who was upright and responsible and gave back, even a little. It's only fair to admit that.
But over the years, as his incompetence and utter lack of ability to control himself or direct his own life in any kind of positive direction became more and more evident, and as I GREW as a person and gained confidence in my own skills at work and in the home and as a mom, it got harder and harder to take it when he "critiqued" EVERYTHING I did... it didn't matter how hard I tried, or how much effort I expended, or even if the local and state leadership told him (which they did a few times) how lucky he was to have married me... nothing I ever did was above criticism. Of course, to him, it wasn't criticism. It was "chosing best over good" and "striving for excellence". It's just that it was aimed non-stop in my direction and never in his own:
The meal was okay (he ate every last bit) but I could have seasoned it better. In fact, he'd like it if I never made that meal again. It just wasn't to his taste.
The house was clean (except for his socks laying on the floor in the living room) but when was I gonna get around to getting his shirts ironed?
Yes, I washed the dishes after dinner but did I really need to air dry them before putting them away? (Of course, my suggestion that he get up off his duff and help dry them was met with stoney silence.)
The laundry got done, but dang, he forgot to clean out his pockets again, and I missed it and washed his little notes (that twi promoted to help you be efficient in your use of time). Where was my attention to detail?
Oh my... I could go on and on and on and on... (just when you think you've put it all behind you...)
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
and to think that twi promoted even encouraged this kind of stuff
it's enough to make you sick
it saddens me that you ladies had to go through that kind of abuse
it elates me that you have overcome it
good for you
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Belle
Oh, Chas, my heart cringes reading about your brother - my brother and my mother were the targets of my ex. My little brother is a bleeding heart liberal with lots of "Eastern" philosophical views on life due to spending so much time in Taiwan and travelling China, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and other countries in that area - mostly areas where white American men are NOT welcome.
He was so friggin' rude to them and resented anytime my family did something nice for me. He would gladly accept their expensive gifts and paid vacations so they could spend time with us, but if they wanted to do something just for me? Forget it. Not allowed. I think he was jealous because he never got that kind of love, treatement and gifts from his family - and couldn't even spend time with them after Moneyhands told him that his dad was possessed and he needed to cut communication with the whole family.
Thank goodness our families realized that we weren't ourselves and are able to forgive us and move on.
The Highway, that sounds like my ex, too! He was a blast when we were dating and when he didn't have his TWI-face on, he could be a lot of fun. I wonder if it's the responsibility that TWI puts on the husband being ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that caused them to snap into being @$$holes...
My ex looked great on paper - he did do the laundry, wash the dishes, vacuum the house, take care of the yard, keep up with maintenance on the cars, etc. He was a dream husband in that regard, but he was a police man and home two-four days a week all day, too.
It's just that, like you said, I was one more thing to take care of - yet another responsibility. There wasn't any gentleness, kindness, loving, attention given to me unless it was to point out something I had done wrong or needed to "work on". It was tough doing laundry for the first time in eight years, but I'd much rather do my own laundry than have to live with the Ice Man and his constant reminders of how inadequate I am.
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FreeFromCults
It seems in that area TWI has not kept up with the times. Still treating the wives as subservient and second-class citizens. jeez.
I would hate to see my mother, sister or daughter being treated like that so I don't and am not going to
even treat my girlfriend like that (of course, she'll kick my arse if I so much ever try it 
).
They say that the "Word" says it
. OK... if that's what the "Word" says, then how about Treat unto others like you like treating unto you. If the "Word" doesn't say or imply that, then I am sorry that they are hypocrites ranting about "the Love of God" when they are not even showing it.
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themex
Ah God, the problem of the submission is one of the biggest cultural problems because the devil promotes rebellion among women. You know that we Mexicans are very machos, but to be a Way believer is different to be a macho, because you should love your wife like Christ love the church.
I always want to married a grad but the grads that were available were very entangles with the things of the world. One thing is that you are a grad the other is that you follow the standards. The commitment TWI ask is a very difficult task, very discipline, is not impossible to fulfilled buy you have to left a lot of things outside to live light. To leave how the Way wants to. It is very boring to confront the love one every time.
For I being reading the GSC women are very discipline and good believers, wonderful women of God. The husbands were the very mad, stupid ones, because they never appreciate what they have. I fell sorry for them .
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Bramble
Hmmm, seems like some of those old TWi attitudes live on GSC.
...the devil promotes rebellion among women...
...another poster-- women are way too emotional( some doctrinal thread)
Seems like the 'it's all the womens fault for not submitting' TwI attitude still lives and breathes.
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excathedra
is that what the devil is promoting these days ? i thought it was the internet
women are too emotional? for what? for whom? don't these males believe god created these females just the way they are?
maybe they were referring to rosalie
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waterbuffalo
Chas, all, here's a book that I really like:
Redefining The Role of Women in the Church
It will set ya free and then you will be free indeed...no, really. It's a great book.
My life is so different, now. I feel like another person, really, I do. I stand up for myself on a regular
basis. It's fun. Wish I'd done that years ago, but then I would have gotten out of twi much earlier,
so you get free when you get free I suppose. But it will get easier and one day it will really be
behind you and you will feel better.
Love,
wb
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shazdancer
Oh dear, ladies, aren't we glad those days are over!
My second hubby tried to control me, but I was having none of it, oopsie for him! He was very jealous of any guy near me. On TWO occasions, he told off guy believers for touching me -- not sexually, mind you: one gave me a friendly push as I went up stairs, the other jokingly put his leg on my knee when I told him to make himself at home at our outdoor fellowship. He later "confronted" those guys, apparently so nastily that they never came to my fellowship again.
On another occasion, I was speaking to a male colleague on the gymnastics floor at work. Next thing I know, hubby has shown up, and he's on the floor (where he wasn't allowed), staring at me! 'Course, the standard he felt I should follow did not pertain to him, as I found out when I came upon him sitting knee-to-knee with a young student of his photography class, or another time when he was moaning as a female Twiggie gave him a shoulder rub.
At the time, I had no idea where this guy got such ethics, as I had been out of TWI since the mid-80s, and knew nothing about the sexual hijinks of the BOT. Waydale clued me in.
Ex-hubby went back "in" about the time we broke up. (Yeah, yeah, I drove him to it!;)) But the fun didn't end there. He has sent me a letter more than once since, saying that I should "be reconciled to my husband." He has invoked the name of Jesus Christ in telling me what I should or shouldn't do. I guess he still thinks he owns me somehow. :blink:
Now, since he was my second marriage, I guess he meant I should return to my FIRST husband! :D Boy, his wife is sure gonna be surprised to see me....
There's more, and it's weirder, but you get the idea.
Regards,
Shaz
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