Oh (((excathedra))) PLEASE don`t say that you were a jerk.... You were simply young and alone and dared to hope that these people had the answeres they promised to understand the reason for our fragmented lives.
We were so young, so neglected, so vulnerable.....many of us had no self esteem or anyone to guide us.
You had someone enter our bleak lonely lives and enthusiastically offer ALL the answeres to life and Godliness....a chance of peace in our tormented souls...a chance to make the shame and the pain go away....someone offered to lead us to God and peace....give our lives value, purpose, meaning.
We were desperate and gullible enough to dare to hope, hope one more time and try to trust the people who told us that they knew the way.....
We could be part of a new and wonderfull family...maybe for the first time in our lives we could be loved and respected....a member of a great spiritual movement....we were going to be art of a tremendous force for good :(
VPW exploited our naievity.... he used that ray of hope to lure us into his snare....only then to betray our fragile trust.
We never saw it coming because it was cloaked in scriptures and bible classes. We never saw it coming because in our youth and naevity, we never dreamed that anyone who claimed to represent God could be so despicably cruel and selfish :(
Please don`t say you were a jerk....we were decieved into believing that these people cared about us and cared about helping ....
THEY are the jerks :( We were simply foolish enough to dare to hope
I don't know why you would think that, Ex. I came from a similiar background and I can tell you that by the time I took the class (at the tender age of 17) I was in no way mentally mature enough to know anything (probably had a mental IQ of about 12). Many from an abusive background can go on to do what needs doing as far as keeping body and soul together (I know I somehow did) but in dealing with relationships and the world, not so much. And now we are introduced to a body of "believers" who pawned themselves off as true men and women of God. They were the jerks: either not recognizing the special needs of people in our position, or not caring, or worse, taking criminal advantage of the situation in the name of God!
They were the jerks: to think that we were just victimizes ourselves.
I think that's what gets Weirwillites mad: they can't seem to recognize the harm that was created within the atmosphere of "loving". I had several circumstances with other leaders who believed that I would advance my spiritual growth if I would just allow them to show me how to be "released" from my prisons. Ha!
If others never had to deal with those situations, well, God bless them. They can consider themselves lucky. For the rest of us, who had to duck and weave our way through our experience, while still trying to cling to the party line, it ain't that easy. But, believe, the ones who put us thru that deserve no mercy.
Sorry, it makes me mad to think that we should somehow be held accountable for OUR actions. BS!!!!
We're all pretty big at shooting our mouths off, how come no-one went around to personally confront him ??
You have no idea how many did, or tried. Neither do I, but I've read tales of people being "given the bum's rush" for speaking against the MOG and I know that even posing serious challenges to Wierwille's doctrine could get a person shunned in a hurry, even in the seventies. Also, for all the talk of openess and accessibility, I suspect that access to Wierwille (real access that would allow for confrontation) and even moreso to Martindale, was limited.
Dearest (((excathedra))) I do not know, but somehow in spite all that has happened, despite the crushing betrayals and horrendous treatment in twi by people who claim to represent him........has not quite been able to crush all of the hope out of me that there IS a God and that some day there will be a reconning and restitution....that someday we will all know peace.
Excathedra--I don't think I was very mature at all at age 18. I would have been totally out of my depth with grown men, and I'd never been abused.
Heck there were times I was out of my depth with the college boys I knew. Fortunately for me, none of the boys I ran around with were abusive or predators.
My parents sent me to a college with 'dorm mothers' and bed checks, very 1960s. I think they knew what they were doing!
I didn't get into TWI until my senior year of college, and at least in the area of men I had learned a few things. Plus I met my husband right away, he was one of the wows who got me into the class.
My sweet daughter is 17 .... the age that we were when we got involved....It brings it all home, makes it so much more personal for me.... She would never be able to handle what happened.
Girls this age are so young and naieve, so willing to please, so optimistic and trusting.
We mustn`t feel bad for the crimes these criminals perpetrated on our trusting souls in SPITE of what armchair shrinks and the local bully says to the contrary.
My parents sent me to a college with 'dorm mothers' and bed checks, very 1960s.
Excuse me for going off topic, but this brought to mind something funny that happened to me at college at the beginning of the Spring semester of 1975. I had attended the college in the Fall, but a girl I had known from my hometown transferred there in the Spring. We had night Chemistry labs at the same time (not the same labs, but across the hall from each other) and decided to go out afterward to catch up. We weren't out all that late, but it was later than the curfew at her dorm. The dorm mother had both the University and the town police forces out looking for my friend. What we did was completely innocent and safe, but it sure caused a ruckus.
Funny LG. If we got caught out after hours we had to do service--cleaning trash off the campus grounds on a Saturday morning, mostly. Lucky for me I was a natural morning person.
Belle..you're a bit of a sad story arncha ? I've said before, I don't CARE what you think, you're just another anonymous face with an anonymous pseudonym.For all I know you are my brother-in-law (actually, you sound a bit like him !!) Time for another pill, so lie down.
OOps, look out..here comes TL !
am i allowed to call someone a raging a## ,ho@e on this site? if i am ....well iwon't anyway
Actually, I was wondering if the allegations against LCM are true ( and I believe they were/are ), with the spread of the internet, hows come people didn't go knocking down his door either at home or at his work place to tear strips (figuratively speaking)off of him.
We all learnt where he was living and working.
Maybe the same thing in VP's time. F.E.A.R.?
We're all pretty big at shooting our mouths off, how come no-one went around to personally confront him ??
You were FWC - you were close by. Why didn't you? Or were you too busy stringing chairs in the chapel with Brad? :) (We've met, by the way - You're a kiwi, right?)
How quickly you forget that Craiggers is an untouchable -- he had very tight security at HQ, and last known, lives with believers. I know some Spotters have been by the gym where he works - there's been posts. I'm sure there's more than that - I think someone named Paul Allen brought him to court or something... something about a lawsuit... and some forum called Waydale - but maybe I'm mistaken...
I agree with the other posters. You were not, nor ever was, a jerk. Those that put you down or held you back or possibly used you...were the honest to real jerks. God Bless your wonderful heart and God LOVES you. (Now I am mad at TWI again...but they deserve it. At least the TWI under LCM. Can't tell with the current TWI)
I would think that Wierwillites get the angriest when people start talking about Dr.Wierwille in a bad way. Saying he did all of those things, I believe that would make them very angry :)
My one experience with getting a weirwillite really upset is when I stopped referring to him as "DR" weirwille and started referring to him as "brother" weirwille.
Talk about balistic!
At the time, I had just taken Brother Leonard's gifts of the spirit course and learned much truth concerning spiritual matters. Of course, the things I learned were quite different from the things VPW taught, so this was tantamount to betrayal, getting spiritually "ripped off" and other cultish and meaninless catch / controlling phrases.
My one experience with getting a weirwillite really upset is when I stopped referring to him as "DR" weirwille and started referring to him as "brother" weirwille.
Talk about balistic!
At the time, I had just taken Brother Leonard's gifts of the spirit course and learned much truth concerning spiritual matters. Of course, the things I learned were quite different from the things VPW taught, so this was tantamount to betrayal, getting spiritually "ripped off" and other cultish and meaninless catch / controlling phrases.
I know one time I said Mr.Wierwille in a fellowship and everybody was giving me the evil eye.
Has anybody here publicly disagreed with any TWI doctrine while they were still in or fought against TWI established protocol? There was a time at the Advanced Class Special in 1992 that the men heading the table, by virtue of either Mrs. Owens or another of the founding women, said that the title to be used was "Hostess", regardless of whether or not one was male or female.
I was heading the table at this time and I said to everyone there, "Regardless of what has been told to you, I am a "HOST" and NOT a "HOST-ESS". About three at the table I led agreed with me and we said the blessing for the meal, but then later someone went and told LCM about what I did and I suspect I was not the only one. LCM had to address us all enmasse when he said, "What Mrs. Owens (I believe that was her) says is the rule at the table, and I back her up all the way!"
I looked up at LCM in the distance and with everyone pretty much within earshot, said, "I don't care if you back her up all the way and I don't care who she is, I'm not emasculating myself at the table. Go ahead and kick me out, kick me out for what, so you can cross gender the Corps? (I was in the Corps that year.) Who's the f*****g snitch? I want their names..."
I received some awful stares and eyes that looked like slits going right through me. No one kicked me out, but I was pretty mad about it. Being that upset I looked around and looked at the people staring at me and said, "What're you all looking at?" One by one they all turned away. This should have had me escorted off grounds but nothing happened. This time I believe no one snitched.
Anyone remember the "Hostess" incident in '92? That was a year that I I probably got both Craiggers and Wierwillites angry.
Somebody know about this and was it Mrs. Owens if you know?
Has anybody here publicly disagreed with any TWI doctrine while they were still in or fought against TWI established protocol?
That's a good story eagle. I was at ACSp '92, and vaguely remember hearing that "hostess" stuff, but not what caused it.
Anyway, in 2001 I was publically fighting against some TWI doctrines, in particular some of the things taught in WayAP: "The Face of the Deep" and "The Original Sin of Mankind". Despite knowing that I was visiting Waydale & Greasespot (but not yet aware that I was posting) our Twig Coordinator let me teach and lead meetings regularly. I "taught" both of these subjects completely different from the way Martindale did, and got away with it at first. Eventually, poking my head out of the gopher hole got me thrown out.
i've done plenty of things in my life i regret, but i still don't give him a pass.... i don't think i'll ever try to rationalize his disgusting actions. did that for too too long. (not that you were saying that, eagle)
as far as rewards, that subject kind of gives me the creeps. i guess i'm not a believing believer anymore
god is still nice to me though :)
I'm with Excie on the way rewards were shoved down our throat and in our faces when it was time to do some work for some leader. I don't believe it one bit.
"Believing Believer"--I haven't heard that term for eons. Only in twitville would they create ;) a word like that. It's runs right along with their "household" BS. If someone is a believer, obviously they believe or the wouldn't be a believer. That way twi's way of putting themselves in a different category than other christians.
I would think that Wierwillites get the angriest when people start talking about Dr.Wierwille in a bad way. Saying he did all of those things, I believe that would make them very angry :)
god bless ckmckeon
It's funny. The truth that he DID those things doesn't upset them. But let someone TALK about it, and
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excathedra
i came from a background of going to the confessional
also holding the top guy in such high esteem he was god
anyway when i told veepee my past
he told me it was horrendous and that god never wanted that to happen to me, but he would show me god's love through him HIM VEEPEE
the way of man with a maid
or why men of god are supposed to heal and teach the young girls
i don't know
i was such a jerk such a fool
christ
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rascal
Oh (((excathedra))) PLEASE don`t say that you were a jerk.... You were simply young and alone and dared to hope that these people had the answeres they promised to understand the reason for our fragmented lives.
We were so young, so neglected, so vulnerable.....many of us had no self esteem or anyone to guide us.
You had someone enter our bleak lonely lives and enthusiastically offer ALL the answeres to life and Godliness....a chance of peace in our tormented souls...a chance to make the shame and the pain go away....someone offered to lead us to God and peace....give our lives value, purpose, meaning.
We were desperate and gullible enough to dare to hope, hope one more time and try to trust the people who told us that they knew the way.....
We could be part of a new and wonderfull family...maybe for the first time in our lives we could be loved and respected....a member of a great spiritual movement....we were going to be art of a tremendous force for good :(
VPW exploited our naievity.... he used that ray of hope to lure us into his snare....only then to betray our fragile trust.
We never saw it coming because it was cloaked in scriptures and bible classes. We never saw it coming because in our youth and naevity, we never dreamed that anyone who claimed to represent God could be so despicably cruel and selfish :(
Please don`t say you were a jerk....we were decieved into believing that these people cared about us and cared about helping ....
THEY are the jerks :( We were simply foolish enough to dare to hope
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topoftheworld
I don't know why you would think that, Ex. I came from a similiar background and I can tell you that by the time I took the class (at the tender age of 17) I was in no way mentally mature enough to know anything (probably had a mental IQ of about 12). Many from an abusive background can go on to do what needs doing as far as keeping body and soul together (I know I somehow did) but in dealing with relationships and the world, not so much. And now we are introduced to a body of "believers" who pawned themselves off as true men and women of God. They were the jerks: either not recognizing the special needs of people in our position, or not caring, or worse, taking criminal advantage of the situation in the name of God!
They were the jerks: to think that we were just victimizes ourselves.
I think that's what gets Weirwillites mad: they can't seem to recognize the harm that was created within the atmosphere of "loving". I had several circumstances with other leaders who believed that I would advance my spiritual growth if I would just allow them to show me how to be "released" from my prisons. Ha!
If others never had to deal with those situations, well, God bless them. They can consider themselves lucky. For the rest of us, who had to duck and weave our way through our experience, while still trying to cling to the party line, it ain't that easy. But, believe, the ones who put us thru that deserve no mercy.
Sorry, it makes me mad to think that we should somehow be held accountable for OUR actions. BS!!!!
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excathedra
thanks rasckie (as i call my lovely little bird)
it's strange
there is a part of me that wonders.... will wholeness ever happen until that great big gathering in the sky..... (god i hate that term)
oops being a little dramatic here
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LG
You have no idea how many did, or tried. Neither do I, but I've read tales of people being "given the bum's rush" for speaking against the MOG and I know that even posing serious challenges to Wierwille's doctrine could get a person shunned in a hurry, even in the seventies. Also, for all the talk of openess and accessibility, I suspect that access to Wierwille (real access that would allow for confrontation) and even moreso to Martindale, was limited.
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rascal
Dearest (((excathedra))) I do not know, but somehow in spite all that has happened, despite the crushing betrayals and horrendous treatment in twi by people who claim to represent him........has not quite been able to crush all of the hope out of me that there IS a God and that some day there will be a reconning and restitution....that someday we will all know peace.
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Bramble
Excathedra--I don't think I was very mature at all at age 18. I would have been totally out of my depth with grown men, and I'd never been abused.
Heck there were times I was out of my depth with the college boys I knew. Fortunately for me, none of the boys I ran around with were abusive or predators.
My parents sent me to a college with 'dorm mothers' and bed checks, very 1960s. I think they knew what they were doing!
I didn't get into TWI until my senior year of college, and at least in the area of men I had learned a few things. Plus I met my husband right away, he was one of the wows who got me into the class.
But at eighteen? I was a baby.
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rascal
My sweet daughter is 17 .... the age that we were when we got involved....It brings it all home, makes it so much more personal for me.... She would never be able to handle what happened.
Girls this age are so young and naieve, so willing to please, so optimistic and trusting.
We mustn`t feel bad for the crimes these criminals perpetrated on our trusting souls in SPITE of what armchair shrinks and the local bully says to the contrary.
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LG
Excuse me for going off topic, but this brought to mind something funny that happened to me at college at the beginning of the Spring semester of 1975. I had attended the college in the Fall, but a girl I had known from my hometown transferred there in the Spring. We had night Chemistry labs at the same time (not the same labs, but across the hall from each other) and decided to go out afterward to catch up. We weren't out all that late, but it was later than the curfew at her dorm. The dorm mother had both the University and the town police forces out looking for my friend. What we did was completely innocent and safe, but it sure caused a ruckus.
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Bramble
Funny LG. If we got caught out after hours we had to do service--cleaning trash off the campus grounds on a Saturday morning, mostly. Lucky for me I was a natural morning person.
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excathedra
too bad the way college of emporia didn't have safeguards
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
and ladies may i say they were the evil jerks not you
you were so innocent it tears my heart out for what you endured
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ChasUFarley
You were FWC - you were close by. Why didn't you? Or were you too busy stringing chairs in the chapel with Brad? :) (We've met, by the way - You're a kiwi, right?)
How quickly you forget that Craiggers is an untouchable -- he had very tight security at HQ, and last known, lives with believers. I know some Spotters have been by the gym where he works - there's been posts. I'm sure there's more than that - I think someone named Paul Allen brought him to court or something... something about a lawsuit... and some forum called Waydale - but maybe I'm mistaken...
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Eagle
Exie,
I agree with the other posters. You were not, nor ever was, a jerk. Those that put you down or held you back or possibly used you...were the honest to real jerks. God Bless your wonderful heart and God LOVES you. (Now I am mad at TWI again...but they deserve it. At least the TWI under LCM. Can't tell with the current TWI)
Eagle
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ckmkeon
I would think that Wierwillites get the angriest when people start talking about Dr.Wierwille in a bad way. Saying he did all of those things, I believe that would make them very angry :)
god bless ckmckeon
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Greek2me
My one experience with getting a weirwillite really upset is when I stopped referring to him as "DR" weirwille and started referring to him as "brother" weirwille.
Talk about balistic!
At the time, I had just taken Brother Leonard's gifts of the spirit course and learned much truth concerning spiritual matters. Of course, the things I learned were quite different from the things VPW taught, so this was tantamount to betrayal, getting spiritually "ripped off" and other cultish and meaninless catch / controlling phrases.
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ckmkeon
I know one time I said Mr.Wierwille in a fellowship and everybody was giving me the evil eye.
ckmckeon
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Eagle
Has anybody here publicly disagreed with any TWI doctrine while they were still in or fought against TWI established protocol? There was a time at the Advanced Class Special in 1992 that the men heading the table, by virtue of either Mrs. Owens or another of the founding women, said that the title to be used was "Hostess", regardless of whether or not one was male or female.
I was heading the table at this time and I said to everyone there, "Regardless of what has been told to you, I am a "HOST" and NOT a "HOST-ESS". About three at the table I led agreed with me and we said the blessing for the meal, but then later someone went and told LCM about what I did and I suspect I was not the only one. LCM had to address us all enmasse when he said, "What Mrs. Owens (I believe that was her) says is the rule at the table, and I back her up all the way!"
I looked up at LCM in the distance and with everyone pretty much within earshot, said, "I don't care if you back her up all the way and I don't care who she is, I'm not emasculating myself at the table. Go ahead and kick me out, kick me out for what, so you can cross gender the Corps? (I was in the Corps that year.) Who's the f*****g snitch? I want their names..."
I received some awful stares and eyes that looked like slits going right through me. No one kicked me out, but I was pretty mad about it. Being that upset I looked around and looked at the people staring at me and said, "What're you all looking at?" One by one they all turned away. This should have had me escorted off grounds but nothing happened. This time I believe no one snitched.
Anyone remember the "Hostess" incident in '92? That was a year that I I probably got both Craiggers and Wierwillites angry.
Somebody know about this and was it Mrs. Owens if you know?
Eagle
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Oakspear
Anyway, in 2001 I was publically fighting against some TWI doctrines, in particular some of the things taught in WayAP: "The Face of the Deep" and "The Original Sin of Mankind". Despite knowing that I was visiting Waydale & Greasespot (but not yet aware that I was posting) our Twig Coordinator let me teach and lead meetings regularly. I "taught" both of these subjects completely different from the way Martindale did, and got away with it at first. Eventually, poking my head out of the gopher hole got me thrown out.
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Eagle
Oakspear,
I am humbled. That is much braver. You are awarded:
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Nottawayfer
I'm with Excie on the way rewards were shoved down our throat and in our faces when it was time to do some work for some leader. I don't believe it one bit.
"Believing Believer"--I haven't heard that term for eons. Only in twitville would they create ;) a word like that. It's runs right along with their "household" BS. If someone is a believer, obviously they believe or the wouldn't be a believer. That way twi's way of putting themselves in a different category than other christians.
Excie, you're all good girl! :)
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waterbuffalo
...not to fall down and worship him, of course....
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Raf
It's funny. The truth that he DID those things doesn't upset them. But let someone TALK about it, and
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