I know we cant change other people , I just do not have a need to carry anger and /or allow anothers behaviour destroy my wonderful life esp. one that has been dead for twenty five years.
I have chosen not to justify my life and its choices so much I have chosen to learn from them , and stop blaming others.
Thais tired old chestnut-is one of the Wierwillites camps' favorite accusations.
So for the umpteenth time I will try to explain
making bad choices in the "here and now" and blaming those choices on what happened years ago in TWI is "blaming others"
Factually recounting incidents, teachings, events, etc from TWI involvement is "putting the blame where it belongs"
While "Putting the blame where it belongs" MAY lead to "blaming others" it usually doesn't. In fact, the more you sort out who is to "blame" for what the less likely you are to resort to "blaming others" since you quickly discover what you are accountable for.
The difference between "allegations" and "crimes", of course,
is whether the speaker wants to pretend they didn't happen or not.
Or Maybe if the person in question was tried before god and found guilty in a court of law it sure is a confusing thing. When while Dr.Wierwille was around none of the allegations were at the surface
Well it is a allegation I don't care if everybody who was at the TWI would stand at my door <_< and said this is true it is still a allegation
well you may have just opened a can of bee hives with that statement.
I agree.
that is why I say this is the internet and no one can really prove any allegation.
I feel if a victim is helped by sharing their stories and it may help somone to state their story then good luck and I hope for the best for you.
but the bottom line is vpw has been dead many decades now and he can/will harm no one now. so it isnt exactly like anyone is saving the world from harm from him by the telling of it.
i think if a person gets involved with twi now or is thinking about leaving they have seen these stories and have consdered them anyway.
i have read the storys and wondered alot why people didnt do something about it then and waited all these decades to state their feelings.
but it isnt for me to judge , I know Im not the only one who wonders tho.
thank you for your post you may not do it again if you face the type of backlash some here who have said thesame thing you have noticed
I believe we will answer to the Almighty some day and the truth will be revealed but until then because he is dead and been dead it is what it is.
Actually, I was wondering if the allegations against LCM are true ( and I believe they were/are ), with the spread of the internet, hows come people didn't go knocking down his door either at home or at his work place to tear strips (figuratively speaking)off of him.
We all learnt where he was living and working.
Maybe the same thing in VP's time. F.E.A.R.?
We're all pretty big at shooting our mouths off, how come no-one went around to personally confront him ??
The difference between "allegations" and "crimes", of course,
is whether the speaker wants to pretend they didn't happen or not.
Or Maybe if the person in question was tried before god and found guilty in a court of law it sure is a confusing thing. When while Dr.Wierwille was around none of the allegations were at the surface
Well it is a allegation I don't care if everybody who was at the TWI would stand at my door <_< and said this is true it is still a allegation
Actually, I was wondering if the allegations against LCM are true ( and I believe they were/are ), with the spread of the internet, hows come people didn't go knocking down his door either at home or at his work place to tear strips (figuratively speaking)off of him.
We all learnt where he was living and working.
Maybe the same thing in VP's time. F.E.A.R.?
We're all pretty big at shooting our mouths off, how come no-one went around to personally confront him ??
Assault is a felony.
Are you going on the record advocating a crime?
That can be called "conspiracy" or "inciting", you know.
I believe lcm should be addressed within the boundaries of the law....
if for no other reason, to
"Submit to every ordinance of man for man's sake."
Law-abiding citizens don't take the law into their own hands.
Besides, the confrontation thing was something lcm himself advocated.
Shall we sink to his level to confront his evil deeds?
Frankly, he needs more praying for than yelling at.
If he lets God heal his heart, he'll be at the first step for offering
my question remains the same. In mine and Selinas' case the country co-ord (a big coward when it comes to him being confronted) LIED to his people and TOLD them he went around to see us and heavily reproved us !! This guy is now co-ordinating TWI International Leadership Training !!
I had no idea of the Wierwille network of abuse and coverup. I had heard of his alleged affairs. I heard of the motorcoach. I had heard about the erroneous "King's property" teaching where all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king. I knew of LCM's alleged affairs, now apparently not "alleged" anymore, the lawsuits being successful.
All I knew was that after years of trying to get over TWI the only way I could do it was to research what they had taught and find out if what was taught was in fact truth.
No, it was not. Not a lot of it anyway.
I can say that opposing the viewpoint of Christians being possessed riles Wierwillites. I can also say that opposing the Seed of the Serpent doctrine get's them really upset. Talking against the Blue Book gets them REALLY upset. I still have to say from feedback (meaning hate mail at my site), that going after anything PFAL makes them really angry. One of my emails, which I still have, was entitled "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?" That person that sent me that, a staunch Wierwille believer, has since cut me off. This and a few others is what prompted this thread.
it's weird. not only would i never have dreamt of going to authorities about wierwille when i was young, i didn't even think about leaving the way until after he was dead
obviously he's dead and can't do anything to anyone
but maybe there are lessons to be learned about the kind of person he was and the kind of people we were or maybe it's therapeutic to talk about it
people can do what they like. they can stay in the way ministry just like they can stay in the catholic church. i don't try to recruit people away from anything. but i talk freely about things that have happened in both groups especially things that have impacted me personally
most my family doesn't like to hear it. they don't know what to do with it because they're so comfy. they don't mind if i talk about wierwille because that doesn't hit any personal nerves
VPW was MOG, he was founder and president, he was the father figure and father in the word unchallenged. With his death LCM was president but was a president among piers or equals. The reins of the TWI dynasty were for the first time reachable and that is when the code of silence was finally broken concerning VPW and his evil deeds, for selfish self promotion of a few. Why else would they have all drank the same cup and participated in the secret doctrine while he lived THEN go public?
This with the coming of the internet and the brilliant use of the net by Paul A. Is what opened the door. Had those many not been greedy, the door would have never opened.
Actually, I was wondering if the allegations against LCM are true ( and I believe they were/are ), with the spread of the internet, hows come people didn't go knocking down his door either at home or at his work place to tear strips (figuratively speaking)off of him.
We all learnt where he was living and working.
Maybe the same thing in VP's time. F.E.A.R.?
We're all pretty big at shooting our mouths off, how come no-one went around to personally confront him ??
Some did, but can't say so publically w/o implicating him/herself.
VPW was MOG, he was founder and president, he was the father figure and father in the word unchallenged. With his death LCM was president but was a president among piers or equals. The reins of the TWI dynasty were for the first time reachable and that is when the code of silence was finally broken concerning VPW and his evil deeds, for selfish self promotion of a few. Why else would they have all drank the same cup and participated in the secret doctrine while he lived THEN go public?
This with the coming of the internet and the brilliant use of the net by Paul A. Is what opened the door. Had those many not been greedy, the door would have never opened.
Self-promotion??.....nah, couldn't be. :)
When cgeer was ordained and "commissioned" to oversee Europe by veepee in 1982........seemingly, it was apparent to veepee that cgeer and lcm could NOT operate on the same continent. Both men needed space...... and the atlantic ocean to separate their egos.
Cgeer went to work establishing Gartmore, the European "headquarters" and training center for the corps, and solidifying his EMPIRE.
Craiggers went to work as the 2nd president of twi...... after Living Victoriously in 1982.
The "same cup"....was now TWO CUPS. And, as scores of leaders were "coming of age"......it wouldn't suprise me if 30 other leaders were on the verge of splitting out.
Heck, why should I be surprised??? Men like Peter J. Wxde left veepee back in 1969 (??) and refused to drink from "the same cup" and twi-doctrine. Twi's history is laced with separation and division.
Some left because of twi's doctrine. Some leaders left because of twi's practical error. Some knew the inner secrets. Some didn't. Some could care less.
I don't mind people believing vpw doctrine. I think it is a lot of error, but I don't mind. If I did I would have my mind filled with thousands of churches that would get me upset with what they teach.
I hated the shunning. That is much rarer.
I only addressed Way doctrine on my site because it did, IMHO, challenge the authenticity of the gospels while at the same time saying they were promoting it. Can't have that.
Wierwillites are classic cult members venerating at the altar of a man. This is why they get so defensive and raise their hackles when anything negative is said about their god. Just pass the kool-aid, please.
To the poster formerly known as mj - pond, to admit that they were wrong, deceived, made bad choices...however you want to say it....to admit that is painful and some people will do anything in the world to keep from fessing up to it. They'll defend the dead man despite all the evidence stacked against him.
He taught people to be twice the child of he11 than himself. Craiggers was one of his best proteges. Who has craiggers taught to be twice the child of he11 than himself? Wouldn't you want your children to know about them?
So, allan is advocating violence? Why does this not surprise me? He's also upset that every confrontation of vee pee and craiggers has not been reported to him? Because he hasn't heard of any confrontations they didn't happen? :unsure: I didn't get the memo that we were supposed to let him know about these things.
Such the model Christian he makes himself out to be....this is what Jesus would have wanted, I'm sure. Why, allen, should we believe your story over your brother-in-law? I don't believe you. I think HE came to YOUR house - called you on the carpet and you cowered like a little girl and are scared to death of him and that's why you tell all these lies about him.
Belle..you're a bit of a sad story arncha ? I've said before, I don't CARE what you think, you're just another anonymous face with an anonymous pseudonym.For all I know you are my brother-in-law (actually, you sound a bit like him !!) Time for another pill, so lie down.
But pen and paper, newspaper, telegram, telephone, fax, TV, postage stamps, lawyers, judges, radio, and typewriters
many of these things were in the cult books of the 70's and 80's--misuse of funds, suicides, sexual misconduct, doctrinal errors ....they were there...Wierwille kept a kibosh on people searching and highly trained his followers not to believe what was written by anyone who wasnt in the fold ---but they certainly were there.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
12
15
8
Popular Days
Feb 16
35
Feb 20
28
Feb 19
19
Feb 17
16
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 11 posts
excathedra 12 posts
Eagle 15 posts
WordWolf 8 posts
Popular Days
Feb 16 2006
35 posts
Feb 20 2006
28 posts
Feb 19 2006
19 posts
Feb 17 2006
16 posts
Posted Images
rascal
Very well said LG.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
I know we cant change other people , I just do not have a need to carry anger and /or allow anothers behaviour destroy my wonderful life esp. one that has been dead for twenty five years.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Thais tired old chestnut-is one of the Wierwillites camps' favorite accusations.
So for the umpteenth time I will try to explain
making bad choices in the "here and now" and blaming those choices on what happened years ago in TWI is "blaming others"
Factually recounting incidents, teachings, events, etc from TWI involvement is "putting the blame where it belongs"
While "Putting the blame where it belongs" MAY lead to "blaming others" it usually doesn't. In fact, the more you sort out who is to "blame" for what the less likely you are to resort to "blaming others" since you quickly discover what you are accountable for.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
that is my whole point Temple lady finding out what one is accountable for and learning from it. I agree.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
Then I guess I am to blame for disagreeing with Wierwille.
Eagle
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
The difference between "allegations" and "crimes", of course,
is whether the speaker wants to pretend they didn't happen or not.
Or Maybe if the person in question was tried before god and found guilty in a court of law it sure is a confusing thing. When while Dr.Wierwille was around none of the allegations were at the surface
Well it is a allegation I don't care if everybody who was at the TWI would stand at my door <_< and said this is true it is still a allegation
ckmckeon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
ckmkeon
well you may have just opened a can of bee hives with that statement.
I agree.
that is why I say this is the internet and no one can really prove any allegation.
I feel if a victim is helped by sharing their stories and it may help somone to state their story then good luck and I hope for the best for you.
but the bottom line is vpw has been dead many decades now and he can/will harm no one now. so it isnt exactly like anyone is saving the world from harm from him by the telling of it.
i think if a person gets involved with twi now or is thinking about leaving they have seen these stories and have consdered them anyway.
i have read the storys and wondered alot why people didnt do something about it then and waited all these decades to state their feelings.
but it isnt for me to judge , I know Im not the only one who wonders tho.
thank you for your post you may not do it again if you face the type of backlash some here who have said thesame thing you have noticed
I believe we will answer to the Almighty some day and the truth will be revealed but until then because he is dead and been dead it is what it is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Actually, I was wondering if the allegations against LCM are true ( and I believe they were/are ), with the spread of the internet, hows come people didn't go knocking down his door either at home or at his work place to tear strips (figuratively speaking)off of him.
We all learnt where he was living and working.
Maybe the same thing in VP's time. F.E.A.R.?
We're all pretty big at shooting our mouths off, how come no-one went around to personally confront him ??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I noticed you selectively skipped around my post.
It said:
When vpw was around, there WERE allegations.
There were far fewer than their might have been,
BECAUSE vpw had a brilliant network in place to cover his
tracks-from before the crime through cleanup after the crime.
Did you know that women who have a past history of abuse are
easier victims for later abuse?
Did you know that all corps applicants were required to submit
autobiographies before admission?
Did you know that women who listed a past history of abuse
were targeted FOR abuse by vpw?
News to you NOW, right?
Did you know that vpw taught IN PRIVATE that adultery and
fornication were all right "if you were able to take it",
and told lcm he'd need to "loosen up sexually"?
Did you know that vpw arranged to have a private place on
grounds-besides his home which was right there, and his office
which was right there- which he called an "office" but was
outfitted like a bedroom?
Did you know that there was a small network of people who
were in on this claim of his, who would separate out a
"sheep from the herd" for him-including women who would
tell other women that vpw needed to see them, and the
result was them innocently heading to his "private office",
where he was wearing a bathrobe and often nothing else?
Where he offered them alcohol, and often it was spiked
with something?
Did you know that vpw arranged for people to check on
his victims within the first few hours after their
"encounter", to "counsel" them that it wasn't rape and
not to press charges?
Did you know that women who looked like they were
likely to press charges were given the bum's rush
off-grounds, and everyone was told she was possessed
and to avoid all contact with her?
Did you know that's happened a lot?
Did you know that a number of people here either WERE
vpw's PERSONAL victims, or his ATTEMPTED victims who
slipped away, or know some of his personal victims,
or saw the process of the coverup in progress, but didn't
put the pieces together until years later?
Did you know that some of the ex-leaders have admitted
to having been told that by vpw, and having believed
it to the point of acting on it, and knowing others who did?
Did you know that lcm's main crime apart from vpw was in
getting CAUGHT and not being as concealing as vpw?
Did you know lcm learned it all FROM vpw?
Did you know that-before the internet-it was easy for someone
who's been victimized to just vanish with no notice?
Did you know that-SINCE the dawn of the internet-it's been a
LOT easier to put all the pieces together and form a COMPLETE
picture of events behind the scenes?
Did you really know all of this?
If not, I recommend you do some reading and catch up.
Around here, all of this is OLD NEWS.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Assault is a felony.
Are you going on the record advocating a crime?
That can be called "conspiracy" or "inciting", you know.
I believe lcm should be addressed within the boundaries of the law....
if for no other reason, to
"Submit to every ordinance of man for man's sake."
Law-abiding citizens don't take the law into their own hands.
Besides, the confrontation thing was something lcm himself advocated.
Shall we sink to his level to confront his evil deeds?
Frankly, he needs more praying for than yelling at.
If he lets God heal his heart, he'll be at the first step for offering
reparations for ruining lives.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Maybe you missed the word..figuratively,
my question remains the same. In mine and Selinas' case the country co-ord (a big coward when it comes to him being confronted) LIED to his people and TOLD them he went around to see us and heavily reproved us !! This guy is now co-ordinating TWI International Leadership Training !!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
Wordwolf,
I had no idea of the Wierwille network of abuse and coverup. I had heard of his alleged affairs. I heard of the motorcoach. I had heard about the erroneous "King's property" teaching where all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king. I knew of LCM's alleged affairs, now apparently not "alleged" anymore, the lawsuits being successful.
All I knew was that after years of trying to get over TWI the only way I could do it was to research what they had taught and find out if what was taught was in fact truth.
No, it was not. Not a lot of it anyway.
I can say that opposing the viewpoint of Christians being possessed riles Wierwillites. I can also say that opposing the Seed of the Serpent doctrine get's them really upset. Talking against the Blue Book gets them REALLY upset. I still have to say from feedback (meaning hate mail at my site), that going after anything PFAL makes them really angry. One of my emails, which I still have, was entitled "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?" That person that sent me that, a staunch Wierwille believer, has since cut me off. This and a few others is what prompted this thread.
Eagle
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
it's weird. not only would i never have dreamt of going to authorities about wierwille when i was young, i didn't even think about leaving the way until after he was dead
obviously he's dead and can't do anything to anyone
but maybe there are lessons to be learned about the kind of person he was and the kind of people we were or maybe it's therapeutic to talk about it
people can do what they like. they can stay in the way ministry just like they can stay in the catholic church. i don't try to recruit people away from anything. but i talk freely about things that have happened in both groups especially things that have impacted me personally
most my family doesn't like to hear it. they don't know what to do with it because they're so comfy. they don't mind if i talk about wierwille because that doesn't hit any personal nerves
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wingnut
VPW was MOG, he was founder and president, he was the father figure and father in the word unchallenged. With his death LCM was president but was a president among piers or equals. The reins of the TWI dynasty were for the first time reachable and that is when the code of silence was finally broken concerning VPW and his evil deeds, for selfish self promotion of a few. Why else would they have all drank the same cup and participated in the secret doctrine while he lived THEN go public?
This with the coming of the internet and the brilliant use of the net by Paul A. Is what opened the door. Had those many not been greedy, the door would have never opened.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
interesting point wingnut.... many coming across as altruistic saviors
:wub:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Some did, but can't say so publically w/o implicating him/herself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Self-promotion??.....nah, couldn't be.
:)
When cgeer was ordained and "commissioned" to oversee Europe by veepee in 1982........seemingly, it was apparent to veepee that cgeer and lcm could NOT operate on the same continent. Both men needed space...... and the atlantic ocean to separate their egos.
Cgeer went to work establishing Gartmore, the European "headquarters" and training center for the corps, and solidifying his EMPIRE.
Craiggers went to work as the 2nd president of twi...... after Living Victoriously in 1982.
The "same cup"....was now TWO CUPS. And, as scores of leaders were "coming of age"......it wouldn't suprise me if 30 other leaders were on the verge of splitting out.
Heck, why should I be surprised??? Men like Peter J. Wxde left veepee back in 1969 (??) and refused to drink from "the same cup" and twi-doctrine. Twi's history is laced with separation and division.
Some left because of twi's doctrine. Some leaders left because of twi's practical error. Some knew the inner secrets. Some didn't. Some could care less.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
I don't mind people believing vpw doctrine. I think it is a lot of error, but I don't mind. If I did I would have my mind filled with thousands of churches that would get me upset with what they teach.
I hated the shunning. That is much rarer.
I only addressed Way doctrine on my site because it did, IMHO, challenge the authenticity of the gospels while at the same time saying they were promoting it. Can't have that.
Eagle
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Wierwillites are classic cult members venerating at the altar of a man. This is why they get so defensive and raise their hackles when anything negative is said about their god. Just pass the kool-aid, please.
To the poster formerly known as mj - pond, to admit that they were wrong, deceived, made bad choices...however you want to say it....to admit that is painful and some people will do anything in the world to keep from fessing up to it. They'll defend the dead man despite all the evidence stacked against him.
He taught people to be twice the child of he11 than himself. Craiggers was one of his best proteges. Who has craiggers taught to be twice the child of he11 than himself? Wouldn't you want your children to know about them?
So, allan is advocating violence? Why does this not surprise me? He's also upset that every confrontation of vee pee and craiggers has not been reported to him? Because he hasn't heard of any confrontations they didn't happen? :unsure: I didn't get the memo that we were supposed to let him know about these things.
Such the model Christian he makes himself out to be....this is what Jesus would have wanted, I'm sure.
Why, allen, should we believe your story over your brother-in-law? I don't believe you. I think HE came to YOUR house - called you on the carpet and you cowered like a little girl and are scared to death of him and that's why you tell all these lies about him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Belle..you're a bit of a sad story arncha ? I've said before, I don't CARE what you think, you're just another anonymous face with an anonymous pseudonym.For all I know you are my brother-in-law (actually, you sound a bit like him !!) Time for another pill, so lie down.
OOps, look out..here comes TL !
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
But pen and paper, newspaper, telegram, telephone, fax, TV, postage stamps, lawyers, judges, radio, and typewriters :unsure:
ckmckeon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
I can assure you she is not a he
Edited by justloafingLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
many of these things were in the cult books of the 70's and 80's--misuse of funds, suicides, sexual misconduct, doctrinal errors ....they were there...Wierwille kept a kibosh on people searching and highly trained his followers not to believe what was written by anyone who wasnt in the fold ---but they certainly were there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.