And one other thing that really ticks Wierwilites off...when you quote the Word to them to show that they are in error.
So, since I enjoy doing just that, I give you the following:
13 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.
14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You devour the houses of widows and, as a pretext, recite lengthy prayers. Because of this, you will receive a very severe condemnation."
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You traverse sea and land to make one convert, and when that happens you make him a child of Gehenna twice as much as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If one swears by the temple, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gold of the temple, one is obligated.'
17 Blind fools, which is greater, the gold, or the temple that made the gold sacred?
18 And you say, 'If one swears by the altar, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gift on the altar, one is obligated.'
19 You blind ones, which is greater, the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20 One who swears by the altar swears by it and all that is upon it;
21 one who swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it;
22 one who swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who is seated on it.
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others.
24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every kind of filth.
28 Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous,
30 and you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets' blood.'
31 Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets;
32 now fill up what your ancestors measured out!
33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?
34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town,
35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
Of course, they will feel free to ignore the above (from Matt 23), because it isn't addressed to them :(
Mstar, that is very profound. People do not want to think that vpw might have been wrong....that THEY may have been wrong in the choices that they made for their lives.
The same thing can be said about those who worship and still worship Craiggers.
The value of the counterfeit is increased by its likeness to the original. vee pee knew this and that's why he packaged his stolen works the way he did. He's fooled some people into thinking he was the original and those people have invested time, money and their lives in vee pee's false ministry. To consider that it was all done for naught is to admit they were fooled, they were naive and it's pulling the foundation out from under them.
vee pee and TWI spoon feeds people and tells them what to think, how to think, what to do with their lives, who to spend time with, how to spend their money and all the other decisions that the rest of the world enjoys making for ourselves. To face the prospect of actually having to think for yourself, actually having to revisit doctrine and consider sources outside of TWI-speak is threatening, scary and just plain unappealing to many.
It's easier to take TWI's standard route of poking your head in the sand and pretending that you can't see or hear anything wrong and no one can prove to you that you're wrong if you refuse to talk to them. That's why the isolation technique of cults and controlling, abusive relationships is so effective. You can't be wrong if you don't listen to the conflicting information.
Another thing I thought of regarding why some wierwillites won't respond and choose to ignore is fear. Being part of a cult and waybrained, they may have bought into the lie that those who don't buy into their beliefs are possessed!!!
Like a little kid they'll put their hands over thier ears and say "I'm not listening, blah blah blah" or like an ostrich sticking it's head in the ground to avoid hearing anything that differs from their belief. Because they may think that if they listen, they might get possessed when in reality, in some cases it could be just the opposite. They could get set free, Jesus Christ taught the truth sets us free, well wrong doctrines can put you in bondage to a certain degree. I'll continue to pray for these folks in the hope they will see the truth and be set free.
Another thing I thought of regarding why some wierwillites won't respond and choose to ignore is fear. Being part of a cult and waybrained, they may have bought into the lie that those who don't buy into their beliefs are possessed!!!
Like a little kid they'll put their hands over thier ears and say "I'm not listening, blah blah blah" or like an ostrich sticking it's head in the ground to avoid hearing anything that differs from their belief. Because they may think that if they listen, they might get possessed when in reality, in some cases it could be just the opposite. They could get set free, Jesus Christ taught the truth sets us free, well wrong doctrines can put you in bondage to a certain degree. I'll continue to pray for these folks in the hope they will see the truth and be set free.
I agree, they are afraid, think that if you do not respect VPW as the best of the best you are possessed. They do not know the truth of the facts neither the truth of God’s Word. It is very sad because they are our brothers and friends our love ones.
Also Belle always write very intelligent, sharp comments!. :D
Another thing I thought of regarding why some wierwillites won't respond and choose to ignore is fear. Being part of a cult and waybrained, they may have bought into the lie that those who don't buy into their beliefs are possessed!!!
Like a little kid they'll put their hands over thier ears and say "I'm not listening, blah blah blah" or like an ostrich sticking it's head in the ground to avoid hearing anything that differs from their belief. Because they may think that if they listen, they might get possessed when in reality, in some cases it could be just the opposite. They could get set free, Jesus Christ taught the truth sets us free, well wrong doctrines can put you in bondage to a certain degree. I'll continue to pray for these folks in the hope they will see the truth and be set free.
I also agree. Belle really hit the bullseye on the topic.
Another thing I thought of regarding why some wierwillites won't respond and choose to ignore is fear.
And I think it is fear because they are really unsure of what they believe--there are doubts there.
I get annoyed when people attack the LDS church with outright lies or half truths about what we teach.
But If you want to tell me you don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God I have no problem with that. It doesn't affect what I believe one whit.
But the simple phrase "I don't believe VPW, or PFAL, or the blue, brown orange book (pick one) sends SOME Wierwillites into a frenzy way out of proportion to what was said. Often the frenzy includes "shotgun" attacks of other posters and their beliefs without ever addressing the topic at hand.
That is a fear response, and the fear IMO can only be that profound if they themselves have serious doubts as to their position
Honest scruteny of our beliefs and wierwilles qualifications ...the acuracy of his materials is extremely threatening to folks who don`t want to have to re evalute the *truth* that they have based their lives on...
Rascal---Its also built into way doctrine not to question or reevalute.....according to them the road down started when Eve considered....many wont even consider anything outside of what they are told to think.
I have seen more of the hardcores over the years that when they have achallenge to their belief structure their minds shut off, put up a wall and nothing else goes in. For serious wayfers it is too much of a brainscramble to deal with things outside the accepted norm. So they don't--they withdraw....then shift and
justify their withdrawal it by labelling the other (take your pick) copped out, not standing, deceived, possessed etc etc
At some time, something about that organization scratched our itch spiritually.
well i thought so -- absolutely -- at the time. but looking back i was so screwed up and needy and confused. freshman in college from a really tough background. bad father. childhood sexual abuse. that sort of thing. the catholic priest and head hot dog and church in our hometown really hurt my little brothers, etc., etc.
so i was kind of like prey sitting there praying. HELP ME i'm vulnerable
wierwille definitely abused the trust i put in his class, his "ministry" his words, his pretend concern, his false kindness, his make-believe counseling sessions....
i don't what gets wierwilleites the angriest. i honestly do not think about it or set out to anger them.
i just tell what happened to me and it feels good to do so after all these years of lying to myself and others.
Excathedra, you are living in their face PROOF that vpw, his version of Christianity AND his organization were deeply flawed and harmfull.
They have to paint you as a liar or an exagerator in order to live with the version of spirituality that they have invested thier lives in.
Either YOU or a liar or vp was..... nobody wants to have to reevalute their entire belief system and existance.
Therefor YOU must be attacked personally, your veracity questioned, you made to look dishonest. your motives misrepresented and maligned...... so that folks can continue to live with themselves and their illusion of truth and spiritual superiority.
This isn`t nice, it isn`t honest....matter of fact, it is down right cowardly ..... but there you go, it seems that this at times is a by product of association with vpw and twi.
anyone can say anything about anyone and live to rant some more about it.
who is to say who is lying?
who is to say anyone is telling the truth?
it is little or nothing to do with anyones spirituality ,it is an internet forum full of ex cult heads trying to make new friends.
and that was the core of the problem in TWI bedfellows and buddies who believed what their friends said before maybe looking into what was really happening right under your nose.
I do not get angry but I will say some here take the victim role to ridiculas form and have been angry for so long they do not know how to live without it.
like a platform of self righteousnes worse than what was in twi leadership.
Im not neccesarily talking about you ex or anyone in particular , to consider someone a coward and lacking spirituality because they may not believe everything written on the internet is again very extreme .
and wrong.
no one can "paint"anyone unless you allow them to.
the very fact somone is reading these posts tells me they do question what they were taught in twi.
I know this anyone who spent any time in twi and was not nuts( Ok?) knows what being critical is and how to live with others negative opinion of what they were /are involved in.
many have a very quick dismissal of all the negative accusation and bitter response from people who just plain sound angry and uninformed on facts.
we are very fact oriented , trained to have an armour and all you know, nastyness name calling and accusation without any base of truth other than the unbleliever said so really doesnt wash very well, and will seldom be believed. it is something most have grown quite accustomed to and wear with honor as a disciple of christ and follower of the way.
My friend who is now clergy who I got in almost wants to be persecuted he feels it is his work for the Lord and proves his worthyness as a man of God . like those before him example vpw.
good luck with your approach I just do not think it will fill your own agenda as you often wish it will.
The only living proof anyone really has is Jesus Christ.
Well said Pond..I would even go one step further and say that some people become almost hysterical in their need to continue living as a victim and in dismissing VPW's teachings.
I would even go one step further and say that some people become almost hysterical in their need to continue living as a victim and in dismissing VPW's teachings.
What nonsense. It doesn't take much of anything to dismiss the bulk of Herr Doktor's "teachings". The majority of them don't hold together on their own, let alone by getting "hysterical" over them.
It was mostly a lot of feel-good claptrap and a bit of appeal to the rebellious nature of our youth. Other than that, it was just so much religious blather.
The people in TWI when I was involved had no time to actually study anything TWI taught and had no REAL research techniques to use to "question whether those things were so". They don't even KNOW what they believe, they only know how to parrot what they've been told. There are no reasoning, logical thinking or critical thinking skills and desire on their part. They've been told what to believe and that settles it in their book.
To ask them to stretch their brain beyond their trained responses is too much for many of them. And realizing that others who have left TWI have done so is threatening and that's why they get so upset. They can't and if they DO actually have the ability - they are afraid to do so because deep down they know what they are going to find and that's not a pretty picture.
Let us read the bible or do we not believe in it anymore??
I King 8:50
And Forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them.
The bible that we believe is bigger than anyone man whatever Dr.Wierwille did or L. Craig Martindale did or any of us can it not be forgiven??
I say that Dr.Wierwille did help people learn the word and mt opinion on what gets wierwillites the angriest would be that Dr.Wierwille himself cannot defend himself against allegations
And Forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them.
The bible that we believe is bigger than anyone man whatever Dr.Wierwille did or L. Craig Martindale did or any of us can it not be forgiven??
I say that Dr.Wierwille did help people learn the word and mt opinion on what gets wierwillites the angriest would be that Dr.Wierwille himself cannot defend himself against allegations
Ckmckeon
The difference between "allegations" and "crimes", of course,
is whether the speaker wants to pretend they didn't happen or not.
vpw committed many crimes, and had a BRILLIANT network in place
to cover his tracks-from BEFORE the crime thru cleanup AFTER the
crime. It's shocking when one first starts hearing of this, but
there's FAR too many eyewitness accounts from total strangers
from all over the place, to REASONABLY dismiss them.
Of course, you can decide to believe whatever you want.
I originally thought the claims where exaggerated or false, myself-
but I DID spend the time to review them, and changed my mind
Since the majority of the remarks on this thread have addressed what was actually taught, and have been fairly non-hysterical, I would say that any criticism of Wierwille, his actions, his teachings, or his organization gets some Wierwillites angry.
I had a short talk, not a long one with my brother tonight, about our cult involvement. He said something pretty interesting, i thought.
"There are 2 easy ways of justifying our involvement with TWI. ........ Villify VP, or canonize him. Anything in between is too much work for me."
He said it, not me. ^_^
I have chosen not to justify my life and its choices so much I have chosen to learn from them , and stop blaming others.
I do think that is the problem "the work "of recovery , people just do not chose to invest in themself to grow into a person that can be accoutable to God almighty , it is so much easier to blame , get angry or not think in general about the why's and what fors of life .
Many find our peanut gallery and our confort zone and stay and consider it growth and happiness.
not me I needed to know I needed to understand I needed to see what living means to me, an found out alot of it is just knowing your own self and be willing to take the change when needed to grow into somone different.
I am not the same person I was last year , many things I was doing in my twenties and thirties I consider just insane now. that is life to carry anger just spins your life into a rut if you ask me.
For too many twiers, Vic took the place of their absent brain...
First of all...hahahahahahahahahahaha!
But you're right.
I vacation every year on a little island in Lake Erie. You always have to be on the lookout for what I call "people who went on vacation and left their brains at home." You'll be driving your golf cart down the road and in the blink of an eye, someone just steps in front of you without even glancing to see what's coming.
I'm sure I had my lapses of brainlessness while in twi, but some people seemed to want to be told how to tie their shoes and wipe their noses. I think those who are afraid to question the doctrine of PFAL fall into that category. Before I got into twi I used to say of people who were in really strict denominations that they not only wanted a Father (God) but also a mother, to tell them everything to do. So this doesn't seem to be unique to twi.
And I think Pond is right when she says Wierwillites react the way they do out of fear--either fear of being wrong or, worse yet, fear that there's nothing real to believe in. Many of us can assure them that there's plenty worth believing in, though. Not all of us have become agnostics and atheists since leaving twi, although some around here would like to slant it that way.
Let us read the bible or do we not believe in it anymore??
I King 8:50
And Forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them.
The bible that we believe is bigger than anyone man whatever Dr.Wierwille did or L. Craig Martindale did or any of us can it not be forgiven??
I say that Dr.Wierwille did help people learn the word and mt opinion on what gets wierwillites the angriest would be that Dr.Wierwille himself cannot defend himself against allegations
Ckmckeon
I agree about forgiveness and that Mr. Wierwille did teach some accurate Bible, but he also taught many erroneous doctrines, some I believe he knew better, but twisted for his own benefit.
I believe if many of us knew of the crimes committed and the wrong twisted doctrines etc, many would have confronted Mr. Wierwille, just as Ralph D. did on the adultry issue. But we didn't know of this stuff while he was alive!
At one time I idolized Mr. Wierwille as the MOG, and bought into everything he taught as "thus saith the Lord"
and it wasn't until years after his death that I learned the truth. Jesus Christ said the truth will set you free and I believe wrong doctrines and practices put us in bondage to a certain degree. So today many times when I post here I attempt to share where VP was wrong, in the hope that some who still idolize him might wake up and see the truth, just as I believe many others who post here attempt to do.
I know that when I started posting on Waydale, I had different opinions then I do now. Some come to Greasespotcafe and see Wierwille and his doctrines discussed in a way they may disagree with and rather then discuss in a rational manner they stop coming back. But If you think you know all the answers you'll never learn. Heck I'm still learning things by discussing here at the Cafe. Ckmckeon I hope you'll continue to read, discuss and post here.
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markomalley
And one other thing that really ticks Wierwilites off...when you quote the Word to them to show that they are in error.
So, since I enjoy doing just that, I give you the following:
Of course, they will feel free to ignore the above (from Matt 23), because it isn't addressed to them :(
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FreeFromCults
The same thing can be said about those who worship and still worship Craiggers.
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Belle
The value of the counterfeit is increased by its likeness to the original. vee pee knew this and that's why he packaged his stolen works the way he did. He's fooled some people into thinking he was the original and those people have invested time, money and their lives in vee pee's false ministry. To consider that it was all done for naught is to admit they were fooled, they were naive and it's pulling the foundation out from under them.
vee pee and TWI spoon feeds people and tells them what to think, how to think, what to do with their lives, who to spend time with, how to spend their money and all the other decisions that the rest of the world enjoys making for ourselves. To face the prospect of actually having to think for yourself, actually having to revisit doctrine and consider sources outside of TWI-speak is threatening, scary and just plain unappealing to many.
It's easier to take TWI's standard route of poking your head in the sand and pretending that you can't see or hear anything wrong and no one can prove to you that you're wrong if you refuse to talk to them. That's why the isolation technique of cults and controlling, abusive relationships is so effective. You can't be wrong if you don't listen to the conflicting information.
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Outin88.
Nicely said Belle and very true.
Another thing I thought of regarding why some wierwillites won't respond and choose to ignore is fear. Being part of a cult and waybrained, they may have bought into the lie that those who don't buy into their beliefs are possessed!!!
Like a little kid they'll put their hands over thier ears and say "I'm not listening, blah blah blah" or like an ostrich sticking it's head in the ground to avoid hearing anything that differs from their belief. Because they may think that if they listen, they might get possessed when in reality, in some cases it could be just the opposite. They could get set free, Jesus Christ taught the truth sets us free, well wrong doctrines can put you in bondage to a certain degree. I'll continue to pray for these folks in the hope they will see the truth and be set free.
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themex
I agree, they are afraid, think that if you do not respect VPW as the best of the best you are possessed. They do not know the truth of the facts neither the truth of God’s Word. It is very sad because they are our brothers and friends our love ones.
Also Belle always write very intelligent, sharp comments!. :D
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FreeFromCults
I also agree. Belle really hit the bullseye on the topic.
I admit that I was amond those who were fooled.
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templelady
And I think it is fear because they are really unsure of what they believe--there are doubts there.
I get annoyed when people attack the LDS church with outright lies or half truths about what we teach.
But If you want to tell me you don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God I have no problem with that. It doesn't affect what I believe one whit.
But the simple phrase "I don't believe VPW, or PFAL, or the blue, brown orange book (pick one) sends SOME Wierwillites into a frenzy way out of proportion to what was said. Often the frenzy includes "shotgun" attacks of other posters and their beliefs without ever addressing the topic at hand.
That is a fear response, and the fear IMO can only be that profound if they themselves have serious doubts as to their position
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mstar1
Sorry Im alittle slow on the uptake--I just caught this
Quote The Invisible Dan
Good one!
You are 100% absolutely right
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mstar1
Rascal---Its also built into way doctrine not to question or reevalute.....according to them the road down started when Eve considered....many wont even consider anything outside of what they are told to think.
I have seen more of the hardcores over the years that when they have achallenge to their belief structure their minds shut off, put up a wall and nothing else goes in. For serious wayfers it is too much of a brainscramble to deal with things outside the accepted norm. So they don't--they withdraw....then shift and
justify their withdrawal it by labelling the other (take your pick) copped out, not standing, deceived, possessed etc etc
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excathedra
so i was kind of like prey sitting there praying. HELP ME i'm vulnerable
wierwille definitely abused the trust i put in his class, his "ministry" his words, his pretend concern, his false kindness, his make-believe counseling sessions....
i don't what gets wierwilleites the angriest. i honestly do not think about it or set out to anger them.
i just tell what happened to me and it feels good to do so after all these years of lying to myself and others.
peace out (as my kid says ;)
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rascal
Excathedra, you are living in their face PROOF that vpw, his version of Christianity AND his organization were deeply flawed and harmfull.
They have to paint you as a liar or an exagerator in order to live with the version of spirituality that they have invested thier lives in.
Either YOU or a liar or vp was..... nobody wants to have to reevalute their entire belief system and existance.
Therefor YOU must be attacked personally, your veracity questioned, you made to look dishonest. your motives misrepresented and maligned...... so that folks can continue to live with themselves and their illusion of truth and spiritual superiority.
This isn`t nice, it isn`t honest....matter of fact, it is down right cowardly ..... but there you go, it seems that this at times is a by product of association with vpw and twi.
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pond
Be real this is the world wide web .
anyone can say anything about anyone and live to rant some more about it.
who is to say who is lying?
who is to say anyone is telling the truth?
it is little or nothing to do with anyones spirituality ,it is an internet forum full of ex cult heads trying to make new friends.
and that was the core of the problem in TWI bedfellows and buddies who believed what their friends said before maybe looking into what was really happening right under your nose.
I do not get angry but I will say some here take the victim role to ridiculas form and have been angry for so long they do not know how to live without it.
like a platform of self righteousnes worse than what was in twi leadership.
Im not neccesarily talking about you ex or anyone in particular , to consider someone a coward and lacking spirituality because they may not believe everything written on the internet is again very extreme .
and wrong.
no one can "paint"anyone unless you allow them to.
the very fact somone is reading these posts tells me they do question what they were taught in twi.
I know this anyone who spent any time in twi and was not nuts( Ok?) knows what being critical is and how to live with others negative opinion of what they were /are involved in.
many have a very quick dismissal of all the negative accusation and bitter response from people who just plain sound angry and uninformed on facts.
we are very fact oriented , trained to have an armour and all you know, nastyness name calling and accusation without any base of truth other than the unbleliever said so really doesnt wash very well, and will seldom be believed. it is something most have grown quite accustomed to and wear with honor as a disciple of christ and follower of the way.
My friend who is now clergy who I got in almost wants to be persecuted he feels it is his work for the Lord and proves his worthyness as a man of God . like those before him example vpw.
good luck with your approach I just do not think it will fill your own agenda as you often wish it will.
The only living proof anyone really has is Jesus Christ.
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allan w.
Well said Pond..I would even go one step further and say that some people become almost hysterical in their need to continue living as a victim and in dismissing VPW's teachings.
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George Aar
What nonsense. It doesn't take much of anything to dismiss the bulk of Herr Doktor's "teachings". The majority of them don't hold together on their own, let alone by getting "hysterical" over them.
It was mostly a lot of feel-good claptrap and a bit of appeal to the rebellious nature of our youth. Other than that, it was just so much religious blather.
Shame on all of us for being so easily conned...
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Belle
Amen you adorable crumudgeon!
The people in TWI when I was involved had no time to actually study anything TWI taught and had no REAL research techniques to use to "question whether those things were so". They don't even KNOW what they believe, they only know how to parrot what they've been told. There are no reasoning, logical thinking or critical thinking skills and desire on their part. They've been told what to believe and that settles it in their book.
To ask them to stretch their brain beyond their trained responses is too much for many of them. And realizing that others who have left TWI have done so is threatening and that's why they get so upset. They can't and if they DO actually have the ability - they are afraid to do so because deep down they know what they are going to find and that's not a pretty picture.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
allan and pond
are you guys married to each other?
well said george and belle
polly want a cracker
that was me
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pond
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ckmkeon
Let us read the bible or do we not believe in it anymore??
I King 8:50
And Forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them.
The bible that we believe is bigger than anyone man whatever Dr.Wierwille did or L. Craig Martindale did or any of us can it not be forgiven??
I say that Dr.Wierwille did help people learn the word and mt opinion on what gets wierwillites the angriest would be that Dr.Wierwille himself cannot defend himself against allegations
Ckmckeon
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ex10
I had a short talk, not a long one with my brother tonight, about our cult involvement. He said something pretty interesting, i thought.
"There are 2 easy ways of justifying our involvement with TWI. ........ Villify VP, or canonize him. Anything in between is too much work for me."
He said it, not me. ^_^
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WordWolf
I do, as do many of us.
HOWEVER,
that is NOT a requirement for posting here.
I direct you to a brief introduction.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913
aka, "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe!"
I also direct you to Greasespot 101,
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showforum=12
The difference between "allegations" and "crimes", of course,
is whether the speaker wants to pretend they didn't happen or not.
vpw committed many crimes, and had a BRILLIANT network in place
to cover his tracks-from BEFORE the crime thru cleanup AFTER the
crime. It's shocking when one first starts hearing of this, but
there's FAR too many eyewitness accounts from total strangers
from all over the place, to REASONABLY dismiss them.
Of course, you can decide to believe whatever you want.
I originally thought the claims where exaggerated or false, myself-
but I DID spend the time to review them, and changed my mind
fairly quickly. (I'm a fast reader.)
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Oakspear
Since the majority of the remarks on this thread have addressed what was actually taught, and have been fairly non-hysterical, I would say that any criticism of Wierwille, his actions, his teachings, or his organization gets some Wierwillites angry.
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pond
I have chosen not to justify my life and its choices so much I have chosen to learn from them , and stop blaming others.
I do think that is the problem "the work "of recovery , people just do not chose to invest in themself to grow into a person that can be accoutable to God almighty , it is so much easier to blame , get angry or not think in general about the why's and what fors of life .
Many find our peanut gallery and our confort zone and stay and consider it growth and happiness.
not me I needed to know I needed to understand I needed to see what living means to me, an found out alot of it is just knowing your own self and be willing to take the change when needed to grow into somone different.
I am not the same person I was last year , many things I was doing in my twenties and thirties I consider just insane now. that is life to carry anger just spins your life into a rut if you ask me.
i
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Linda Z
A couple pages back, Groucho said:
First of all...hahahahahahahahahahaha!
But you're right.
I vacation every year on a little island in Lake Erie. You always have to be on the lookout for what I call "people who went on vacation and left their brains at home." You'll be driving your golf cart down the road and in the blink of an eye, someone just steps in front of you without even glancing to see what's coming.
I'm sure I had my lapses of brainlessness while in twi, but some people seemed to want to be told how to tie their shoes and wipe their noses. I think those who are afraid to question the doctrine of PFAL fall into that category. Before I got into twi I used to say of people who were in really strict denominations that they not only wanted a Father (God) but also a mother, to tell them everything to do. So this doesn't seem to be unique to twi.
And I think Pond is right when she says Wierwillites react the way they do out of fear--either fear of being wrong or, worse yet, fear that there's nothing real to believe in. Many of us can assure them that there's plenty worth believing in, though. Not all of us have become agnostics and atheists since leaving twi, although some around here would like to slant it that way.
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Outin88.
I agree about forgiveness and that Mr. Wierwille did teach some accurate Bible, but he also taught many erroneous doctrines, some I believe he knew better, but twisted for his own benefit.
I believe if many of us knew of the crimes committed and the wrong twisted doctrines etc, many would have confronted Mr. Wierwille, just as Ralph D. did on the adultry issue. But we didn't know of this stuff while he was alive!
At one time I idolized Mr. Wierwille as the MOG, and bought into everything he taught as "thus saith the Lord"
and it wasn't until years after his death that I learned the truth. Jesus Christ said the truth will set you free and I believe wrong doctrines and practices put us in bondage to a certain degree. So today many times when I post here I attempt to share where VP was wrong, in the hope that some who still idolize him might wake up and see the truth, just as I believe many others who post here attempt to do.
I know that when I started posting on Waydale, I had different opinions then I do now. Some come to Greasespotcafe and see Wierwille and his doctrines discussed in a way they may disagree with and rather then discuss in a rational manner they stop coming back. But If you think you know all the answers you'll never learn. Heck I'm still learning things by discussing here at the Cafe. Ckmckeon I hope you'll continue to read, discuss and post here.
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