As far as counseling, I never saw any evidence of training in counseling. Some people were more versed in Scripture, more in tune with the teachings of Jesus, and more humble than others. If indeed one came into TWI with counseling training, it was quickly obviated by a need to convince that person that s/he didn't know squat compared to the teachings of TWI.
When we lived in the south, we knew a lovely, smart woman who was working on her master's in psychology, got a Ph.D. in child psychology and was a brilliant, loving concerned person. She went into the WC, married a WC grad, and the last I knew she was working on The Way Magazine. What a stinking waste of talent and education! I haven't heard from her or about her for decades but I hope and pray she's out of that mess and helping adolescent kids somewhere.
Counseling: Your ADHD son doesn't need medications. He needs frequent, prolonged, painful beatings until he learns to submit or die. Even had one (spouse corps) WC grad advise me we should end his life if he didn't straighten up.
JohnIam, thank God you are with people who love and understand.
WG, I know a man who has a degree in Special Education. He told me that it helped him deal with Veterans.
Excie, that's because you're a nice woman. If someone had said that to me, I would have told them to F-off, and left!! How nice that God didn't treat them like that when they were kids!!!! TWI had a lot of ungodly people in it, who didn't know Jack about raising kids.
We'll never have enough to be CONCLUSIVE, but we know a lot about what happened.
lcm HIMSELF gave the account, when he was applauding vpw and lauding him to the
skies in "vp and me."
We had the account in the thread "vp and me in wonderland."
""Dr and LCM always fought for people to stay in the Corps.
There was an incident of a guy in the Corps who all of a sudden went
"gooney-bird". He started to babble and not make sense. LCM worked hard
with the guy to help him but he was incoherent. Dr, when he met him,
confronted him by asking- 'Son, how come you're letting your mind get
all scrambled?' The guy answered unintelligibly and Dr told him that it would
be best for him just to pack his bags and go home. The guy understood
that. He left.
LCM spent many hours and many long distance phone calls trying to make
sure the guy had gotten home from his bus ride home safely. Not being
able to verify his location, he was concerned. Dr told him to move on.
There's nothing you can do, he'll show up at home soon enough. A week
later the guy did show up at home."
Mind you,
lcm had a BA in Psychology, and SHOULD have been able to give
some USEFUL description here, but he did not.
lcm ATTEMPTED to do SOMETHING with the guy.
vpw-whose only background in Psychology was POSSIBLY Jay Adams' book
"Competent to Counsel" (recommended to the corps and advocating
CONFRONTING people)- CONFONTED a man with an obvious physical problem.
He needed a medical evaluation. He could have had a stroke, a critical
vitamin deficiency, or any of a number of other things.
vpw's answer? "Pack your bags and go home."
lcm-like any normal person- worried that he'd get home safely.
After all, it was a frighteningly CALLOUS and USELESS thing to take
him, get NO medical help, NO medical EVALUATION, then dump him on a
series of buses to get home EVENTUALLY.
But we have no way of knowing anything but that he got home, days later.
We don't know the authorities WEREN'T called.
We don't know another passenger didn't take pity on him and talk him through
stops for food and rest for a day or something.
We know he was able to pack, more or less. We don't know what the problem was or
if he was going to drop dead on the bus. (There was no medical evaluation.
Even a school has a nurse on hand to do an evaluation and determine if a hospital
is needed. A paramedic would have been something. But there was no preparation
at the "facility" of any kind.)
We know he was incoherent. We do not know why or if it was a symptom of something
more dangerous. vpw just kicked him off-grounds and said to forget about him.
This was a pretty standard policy with twi. One ex-WOW said they had a horrible
incident on the field, and was traumatized. They were put on a bus and told to
go home. They took several days to get home as well because they were traumatized
and didn't have the clarity of mind to get home safely. They got lost at an early
stop and had a SECOND traumatic experience in trying to get home while being
mentally incapable.
So,
MAYBE the guy was suddenly and mysteriously all better and made a tour of his
rip home.
MAYBE the guy collapsed on a bus and local help was gotten for him.
Either outcome is possible because he was put on a bus right after an acute
psychiatric incident with no medical evaluation.
Any place would be legally liable for placing someone in danger like that.
They had a fiduciary responsibility toward the students in their program.
But vpw saw all the responsibility go ONE WAY-FROM the students.
He never saw all the things HE OWED them-which is why he never offered them.
I believe devils can cause problems, but that doesn't mean medical attention is
dismissed. Some people believe devils can exploit existing medical conditions and
in that case, getting proper medical care would thwart them.
But in twi, it was simple-and LAZY and UNEDUCATED- to blame the supernatural for
every intangible problem. This added the convenience of giving them the excuse
of not offering tangible solutions.
WW, I am not a Medical Professional, but I would have called 911. And then, I would have prayed for him!! Hello, the man obviously had some sort of problem; deal with the problem first, and then pray about it!! That's what I would have done.
Grace M. C., I wish to this day I had smacked that guy in the mouth for saying that we should "take him up into the North Cascades so far no one can hear his screams, and take turns hitting him with a 2x4 until he realizes that if he ever disobeys again, he will be taken back to that place and he will die there!" This piece of offal also told us that he would drag his 3-year-old daughter, the youngest of their four children, down the driveway and kick her into the street before he would ever allow her or one of his children to come between him and his loyalty to "The Ministry."
I wonder if his three sons and his daughter are involved with TWI? I doubt it.
Oh, hey! Since you're retired military, I heard a man say this on TV last night, and I thought it was cool. This person works closely with veterans and he uses the term "PTS" instead of "PTSD." He said it's because the word "disorder" is a label that would make potential employers look at the hiree differently. I thought it was cool, and would also work with others who have, for example, ADH (D).
Grace M. C., I wish to this day I had smacked that guy in the mouth for saying that we should "take him up into the North Cascades so far no one can hear his screams, and take turns hitting him with a 2x4 until he realizes that if he ever disobeys again, he will be taken back to that place and he will die there!" This piece of offal also told us that he would drag his 3-year-old daughter, the youngest of their four children, down the driveway and kick her into the street before he would ever allow her or one of his children to come between him and his loyalty to "The Ministry."
I wonder if his three sons and his daughter are involved with TWI? I doubt it.
Oh, hey! Since you're retired military, I heard a man say this on TV last night, and I thought it was cool. This person works closely with veterans and he uses the term "PTS" instead of "PTSD." He said it's because the word "disorder" is a label that would make potential employers look at the hiree differently. I thought it was cool, and would also work with others who have, for example, ADH (D).
Anyway, thanks for all your posts!
WG, I think the TWI guy was nuts!! How would he like it if someone beat the S--t out of him for not obeying! Also, I met other people who put the ministry above all else; even God! When TWI implored, they had a hard time dealing with it! Nuts!
I was lead astray by these people and it undermined my authority as a Christian leader in my household. I was young, 26 or so. I knew my Bible but not Greek or Hebrew. That’s how they get you really. John Hendricks would quote Greek and spin his attack against Trinity doctrine. Notables Jesus Christ not knowing future events, power not his own and Christ not being omnipresent. 1 John 4: 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. But he says not to look to the Greek in the foundational class contradicting himself. It always stuck in my mind that Jesus was sent. He says before ie prier to Abraham I AM. Jewish leaders wouldn’t take up stones to kill you if you was just saying you was in prier knowledge of God. Later I found out about flesh in fore mentioned text is feminine gendered. Jesus is not female, the Bride is. It’s Jesus Christ’s Spirit in us. That’s what that scripture is saying. Hope this help. A woman(Rochelle Hendricks) is not to be a leader of men. That’s whose running the show after her dad died of a heart attack. So much for faith healing. Might I suggest Anthony Rogers on YouTube, he has been showing the trinity and Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord in Old Testament. Jesus Christ was a man in flesh tempted as we are. Father God kept certain things from him while he was a man so he could suffer as we do. He went to the Cross fully knowing who He was both God and Man as the Old Testament states. For all of creation to be redeemed it takes a God sized gift. Christ paid for all. Unfortunately not all receive His free gift because they have to obey truth.
I am posting this, although years after the original post, to warn anyone thinking about joining CR&F. This is a cult. No doubt about it. I was involved with CR&F for one year and felt welcome, loved, involved, etc.. all the things I was desiring at a vulnerable point in my life. I loved attending fellowship also. One day I was told that I either needed to “be on the same page as them” (they meant hurry up and know all that we know or you’re not committed, and basically catch up) or I “was not welcome”. They also told me that the difficult times I was experiencing were happening because I believed them/willed them to happen out of my own fear.. this is garbage and not God’s will or His Word. PLEASE be aware of this group- they will lead you astray so fast you won’t realize you’ve been in a cult the whole time and then call you a “goat”. I feel sorry for the people who have been sucked in and told to hush or get out and the people born into this awful and evil organization who call themselves Christian. Other red flags- it was always strange to me that they refer to Rochelle as some higher being, saying she’s “the woman of God” and how mysterious she is, they use their own phrases and always turn them around on you- for example you’re either “not loving, off the word, or you need to renew your mind”, and the biggest one is they lead you away from your family and justify it by saying you need to “put off your old man”. They tack on real verses onto what they’re saying so that you won’t question anything, but I’m here to call them out and say RUN THE OTHER DIRECTION. It’s been years since I left and I am still dealing with the impacts of their version of brainwashing. Please take this seriously. You will walk away questioning God, who you thought you knew and it will be a hard road back to The Truth.
Hi Ex member. Glad you escaped, sounds like "more of the same." This sounds like some group you are well away from (I know nothing of it personally). Do feel free to read and post here about any issues you've encountered, or any hurt that you may have. We've all "been there" (in the parent cult). We understand...sadly.
It’s been years since I left and I am still dealing with the impacts of their version of brainwashing. Please take this seriously. You will walk away questioning God, who you thought you knew and it will be a hard road back to The Truth.
Throughout the process of healing and achieving victory over those who were “taught” by victor paul wierwille, I still get triggered. The impacts and scars from the spiritual warfare will always be there. The road to Truth is necessarily hard, it seems to me.
Welcome, Ex member. Thank you for sharing.
I tried with little success to find some info on CF&R. But I did find a promo video of their 2012 Advanced Class. There was a slide indicating “Five Keys to Walking in Spirit.” Isn’t that short a few keys? Did John Hendricks simply fail to fully absorb the wonderful, matchless “teachings” of VPW?
What, exactly, are the five keys according to CF&R?
I babysat Rochelle Hendrix in 1983, 1984, when her dad and mom were limb leaders of Florida. John Henrdrix, her dad, is the one who suggested my husband and I go to HQ on staff. (See Undertow).
John had an ego the size of a barn. No surprise his daughter took over...
What happened to Mary Ann, the mom? She played the piano beautifully.
I am reminded of something Mike once said in defense of victor teaching Julius Erving a thing or two about a thing or two: Is it bragging to say you can jump over a barn, if in fact you CAN jump over a barn?
Bragging or not, no one can jump over a barn, Mike.
Edited by Nathan_Jr Technically, that would by lying, not bragging.
I babysat Rochelle Hendrix in 1983, 1984, when her dad and mom were limb leaders of Florida. John Henrdrix, her dad, is the one who suggested my husband and I go to HQ on staff. (See Undertow).
John had an ego the size of a barn. No surprise his daughter took over...
What happened to Mary Ann, the mom? She played the piano beautifully.
Was that in the early 80's, about the time we were there, 82-83 ish? I remember Rochelle, vaguely.
John and Mary Ann were both from the 4th Corps, and he did have a big sense of himself to say the least. We got along well enough but we weren't as close as I would have liked. He must have been right after Billy was removed.
I never got what CR&F was all about, post the Geer era. John had some very different views as to how the "spiritual" world worked, even when he was still employed by the Way. I liked John and he did have some good qualities, I can only imagine what ended up in any "class" he taught or what they're promoting.
We did have a conflict that he thought Mary Ann was "past her prime" with playing music and didn't want her devoting more time to it, we had a lengthy conversation about that, Mary Ann accepted it, presumably as part of the mog/head of household role the Way taught was the husbands. It was their marriage. It was like a Mormonist-Islamist-Fundamentalist combo meal. I didn't agree with it, or his application but he didn't budge. I too hope she at least decided for herself later, and is happy now with her life as she's living it.
It was their marriage. It was like a Mormonist-Islamist-Fundamentalist combo meal. I didn't agree with it, or his application but he didn't budge. I too hope she at least decided for herself later, and is happy now with her life as she's living it.
Oh the irony! In the late 1980s, I married someone who had never been in twi. I tried (too hard) to do that too. It didn't work at all for me. My divorce was final in 1996. The irony is that my ex was proselytized by a Mormon divorce attorney and has been a practicing LDS follower ever since. She even (re)married someone from that church. That didn't work out for her either. One marriage was more than enough for me. I've also observed that the whole man is the head of the woman and/or marriage thing has very much gone out of style, I suppose except for hard core religious types.
Socks, I too hope Mary Ann decided for herself and is happy now with her life as she is living it.
Oh the irony! In the late 1980s, I married someone who had never been in twi. I tried (too hard) to do that too. It didn't work at all for me. My divorce was final in 1996. The irony is that my ex was proselytized by a Mormon divorce attorney and has been a practicing LDS follower ever since. She even (re)married someone from that church. That didn't work out for her either. One marriage was more than enough for me. I've also observed that the whole man is the head of the woman and/or marriage thing has very much gone out of style, I suppose except for hard core religious types.
Socks, I too hope Mary Ann decided for herself and is happy now with her life as she is living it.
Ironic to say the least!
I first met John in Indiana, in ‘73, and he was a rough cut. He was somewhat an innocent too, and very open hearted. Like all of us he was young and like everyone of that age, we were in the process of becoming adults, who we would be “when we grew up”. It’s been quite the journey hasn’t it? We may even finish growing up before we’re done. :)
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Belle
Welcome, Richard! As promised, here are the fresh baked cinnamon rolls today. Please, help yourself. :) I don't know a thing about John Hendricks, but I do know a bit about TWI and I would never ge
Raf
Johniam, my son was recently diagnosed with ASD. Your dedication to your children just raised you like a billion notches in my book. We may not agree on much, but you have my profound respect. Keep up
skyrider
Same with the Shroyer group (CFF).......daughter Tonia now sits in the big chair. When will people wake up and see how these "ministries" are just businesses where administrators make a nice living
Grace Valerie Claire
WG, I know a man who has a degree in Special Education. He told me that it helped him deal with Veterans.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Excie, that's because you're a nice woman. If someone had said that to me, I would have told them to F-off, and left!! How nice that God didn't treat them like that when they were kids!!!! TWI had a lot of ungodly people in it, who didn't know Jack about raising kids.
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, I am not a Medical Professional, but I would have called 911. And then, I would have prayed for him!! Hello, the man obviously had some sort of problem; deal with the problem first, and then pray about it!! That's what I would have done.
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Watered Garden
Grace M. C., I wish to this day I had smacked that guy in the mouth for saying that we should "take him up into the North Cascades so far no one can hear his screams, and take turns hitting him with a 2x4 until he realizes that if he ever disobeys again, he will be taken back to that place and he will die there!" This piece of offal also told us that he would drag his 3-year-old daughter, the youngest of their four children, down the driveway and kick her into the street before he would ever allow her or one of his children to come between him and his loyalty to "The Ministry."
I wonder if his three sons and his daughter are involved with TWI? I doubt it.
Oh, hey! Since you're retired military, I heard a man say this on TV last night, and I thought it was cool. This person works closely with veterans and he uses the term "PTS" instead of "PTSD." He said it's because the word "disorder" is a label that would make potential employers look at the hiree differently. I thought it was cool, and would also work with others who have, for example, ADH (D).
Anyway, thanks for all your posts!
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Grace Valerie Claire
WG, I think the TWI guy was nuts!! How would he like it if someone beat the S--t out of him for not obeying! Also, I met other people who put the ministry above all else; even God! When TWI implored, they had a hard time dealing with it! Nuts!
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Ross Temple
I was lead astray by these people and it undermined my authority as a Christian leader in my household. I was young, 26 or so. I knew my Bible but not Greek or Hebrew. That’s how they get you really. John Hendricks would quote Greek and spin his attack against Trinity doctrine. Notables Jesus Christ not knowing future events, power not his own and Christ not being omnipresent. 1 John 4: 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. But he says not to look to the Greek in the foundational class contradicting himself. It always stuck in my mind that Jesus was sent. He says before ie prier to Abraham I AM. Jewish leaders wouldn’t take up stones to kill you if you was just saying you was in prier knowledge of God. Later I found out about flesh in fore mentioned text is feminine gendered. Jesus is not female, the Bride is. It’s Jesus Christ’s Spirit in us. That’s what that scripture is saying. Hope this help. A woman(Rochelle Hendricks) is not to be a leader of men. That’s whose running the show after her dad died of a heart attack. So much for faith healing. Might I suggest Anthony Rogers on YouTube, he has been showing the trinity and Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord in Old Testament. Jesus Christ was a man in flesh tempted as we are. Father God kept certain things from him while he was a man so he could suffer as we do. He went to the Cross fully knowing who He was both God and Man as the Old Testament states. For all of creation to be redeemed it takes a God sized gift. Christ paid for all. Unfortunately not all receive His free gift because they have to obey truth.
God Bless you and hope this helps.
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Ex member
I am posting this, although years after the original post, to warn anyone thinking about joining CR&F. This is a cult. No doubt about it. I was involved with CR&F for one year and felt welcome, loved, involved, etc.. all the things I was desiring at a vulnerable point in my life. I loved attending fellowship also. One day I was told that I either needed to “be on the same page as them” (they meant hurry up and know all that we know or you’re not committed, and basically catch up) or I “was not welcome”. They also told me that the difficult times I was experiencing were happening because I believed them/willed them to happen out of my own fear.. this is garbage and not God’s will or His Word. PLEASE be aware of this group- they will lead you astray so fast you won’t realize you’ve been in a cult the whole time and then call you a “goat”. I feel sorry for the people who have been sucked in and told to hush or get out and the people born into this awful and evil organization who call themselves Christian. Other red flags- it was always strange to me that they refer to Rochelle as some higher being, saying she’s “the woman of God” and how mysterious she is, they use their own phrases and always turn them around on you- for example you’re either “not loving, off the word, or you need to renew your mind”, and the biggest one is they lead you away from your family and justify it by saying you need to “put off your old man”. They tack on real verses onto what they’re saying so that you won’t question anything, but I’m here to call them out and say RUN THE OTHER DIRECTION. It’s been years since I left and I am still dealing with the impacts of their version of brainwashing. Please take this seriously. You will walk away questioning God, who you thought you knew and it will be a hard road back to The Truth.
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Twinky
Hi Ex member. Glad you escaped, sounds like "more of the same." This sounds like some group you are well away from (I know nothing of it personally). Do feel free to read and post here about any issues you've encountered, or any hurt that you may have. We've all "been there" (in the parent cult). We understand...sadly.
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Nathan_Jr
Throughout the process of healing and achieving victory over those who were “taught” by victor paul wierwille, I still get triggered. The impacts and scars from the spiritual warfare will always be there. The road to Truth is necessarily hard, it seems to me.
Welcome, Ex member. Thank you for sharing.
I tried with little success to find some info on CF&R. But I did find a promo video of their 2012 Advanced Class. There was a slide indicating “Five Keys to Walking in Spirit.” Isn’t that short a few keys? Did John Hendricks simply fail to fully absorb the wonderful, matchless “teachings” of VPW?
What, exactly, are the five keys according to CF&R?
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penworks
I babysat Rochelle Hendrix in 1983, 1984, when her dad and mom were limb leaders of Florida. John Henrdrix, her dad, is the one who suggested my husband and I go to HQ on staff. (See Undertow).
John had an ego the size of a barn. No surprise his daughter took over...
What happened to Mary Ann, the mom? She played the piano beautifully.
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Nathan_Jr
I am reminded of something Mike once said in defense of victor teaching Julius Erving a thing or two about a thing or two: Is it bragging to say you can jump over a barn, if in fact you CAN jump over a barn?
Bragging or not, no one can jump over a barn, Mike.
Edited by Nathan_JrTechnically, that would by lying, not bragging.
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socks
Was that in the early 80's, about the time we were there, 82-83 ish? I remember Rochelle, vaguely.
John and Mary Ann were both from the 4th Corps, and he did have a big sense of himself to say the least. We got along well enough but we weren't as close as I would have liked. He must have been right after Billy was removed.
I never got what CR&F was all about, post the Geer era. John had some very different views as to how the "spiritual" world worked, even when he was still employed by the Way. I liked John and he did have some good qualities, I can only imagine what ended up in any "class" he taught or what they're promoting.
We did have a conflict that he thought Mary Ann was "past her prime" with playing music and didn't want her devoting more time to it, we had a lengthy conversation about that, Mary Ann accepted it, presumably as part of the mog/head of household role the Way taught was the husbands. It was their marriage. It was like a Mormonist-Islamist-Fundamentalist combo meal. I didn't agree with it, or his application but he didn't budge. I too hope she at least decided for herself later, and is happy now with her life as she's living it.
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Rocky
Oh the irony! In the late 1980s, I married someone who had never been in twi. I tried (too hard) to do that too. It didn't work at all for me. My divorce was final in 1996. The irony is that my ex was proselytized by a Mormon divorce attorney and has been a practicing LDS follower ever since. She even (re)married someone from that church. That didn't work out for her either. One marriage was more than enough for me. I've also observed that the whole man is the head of the woman and/or marriage thing has very much gone out of style, I suppose except for hard core religious types.
Socks, I too hope Mary Ann decided for herself and is happy now with her life as she is living it.
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oldiesman
First time on this thread... was great reading some of the oldtimers' posts. Would love it if some of them stop by and say hello sometime.
*******************
I never knew and know nothing about this offshoot. Found this page from Dr. John Juedes:
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/spl_hendricks.htm
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socks
Ironic to say the least!
I first met John in Indiana, in ‘73, and he was a rough cut. He was somewhat an innocent too, and very open hearted. Like all of us he was young and like everyone of that age, we were in the process of becoming adults, who we would be “when we grew up”. It’s been quite the journey hasn’t it? We may even finish growing up before we’re done. :)
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Rocky
YIKES! What a thought. We don't grow without enduring difficult times, as I now understand it.
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