Christian Fellowship and Research (CFNR)

[Twinky]

It seems to have escaped later posters' attention that the original post was 6.5 years ago and the poster made only the one post. One wonders if he ever returned to read any responses.

[Asked his question and made his only post]

Now some other person (registered some time ago) has leapt into the discussion, making practically the totality of his/her posts on this one thread.

Regular posters here have their views, of course, but I wonder if the reason this thread is now up for discussion is that someone is not serious about responses but just wants to cause dispute and trouble. Trolling, in fact.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Twinky

[johniam]

It seems to me as if an incident happened according to him at the advanced class. The advanced class coordinators wife, was wrong obviously in doing what she did. But NOT forgiving someone for doing something wrong, is also not right. To wrongs do not make one right I assure you.

I do not think I know the person who this happened to, but I may, because I have been at every advanced class of CR&F since 1998. Except for the last 2 years. The situation was handled it seems to me, in the right way. johniam was told that if he could not work it out with the person who apologized, and forgive, then he had to leave. What else would you think they could have done at the advanced class? Allow them all to stay in the house together with unforgiveness in one persons heart towards another? johniam had every right to be upset, I agree, I would have been not blessed either, but I also would have no problem forgiving someone who obviously did something wrong if they apologized. Forgiveness is for both peoples heart. The one forgiving gets healing in the act of forgiving, and the one who made the mistake can get their heart healed knowing the other person forgives them.

johniam had a decision to make, to be loving (meaning forgive) or do not forgive, which is a basic principle of the love of God. If he had forgiven I am sure that all would have been taken care of by God. And the best situation for all involved would have come to pass. Maybe they would not have stayed in the same house for that class, I don't know, it was not my decision to make, I was not there, nor would I honestly have wanted to make a decision, but if I did, it would of been along the same lines.

Just the mere fact that johniam refused to forgive was not wise or loving. Some people are just built that way in their old man ways, and those type of people unless they change will not get along with anyone or group for very long, because forgiveness is REQUIRED in order to walk in fellowship with God and with the family of God. Even if others have done something wrong. If no one ever did anything wrong, why would we even need forgiveness?

I hope you see my point?

As for your other questions, they do not matter at all in regards to what I am saying. I speak from first hand experience just as the other guy. Whom, I believe has a great heart, but just needs to forgive a little easier. No matter what. God forgave Paul for murdering Christians, the Advanced class cooridinators wife in question surely did not do anything close to that.

Love in Christ,

I guess I should weigh in here.

An update: my family still goes to the Chris Geer fellowship and were are quite happy with it. The house coordinator and his wife now live in a different part of STL. Not sure if they still coordinate a fellowship or not. The area coordinator is still the area coordinator for CRF AND he is still the owner of the window cleaning company I work for. I stopped participating with CRF, but I still work for him, as do a few other believers and they treat me just fine. I particularly want to adress THIS portion of the quoted post:

quote:

Just the mere fact that johniam refused to forgive was not wise or loving. Some people are just built that way in their old man ways, and those type of people unless they change will not get along with anyone or group for very long, because forgiveness is REQUIRED in order to walk in fellowship with God and with the family of God. Even if others have done something wrong. If no one ever did anything wrong, why would we even need forgiveness?

Not for very long, eh? I was in twi for 18 years. I've now gone to the same fellowship for almost 8 years. Just how long is 'not very long'? If forgiveness is required, then so is self esteem. You can't just pause and enlarge a 2 hour segment of someone's life and assign permanent character traits to it, can you?

Part of the problem for us is that 2 of my 3 children are autistic. TWI fellowship never had the capacity to accomodate situations like this. They all too quickly pulled out the proverbial rubber stamp which says POSSESSED. "I'm not responsible to love this person with the love of God! You can SEE he's possessed!" Glad Jesus didn't operate that way. This led to our leaving twi and also a different spinoff in MI late 90s. For the spinoff it was like CRF. More local people that the whole group. With twi it was the whole group.

In the Chris Geer fellowship the leader's attitude toward our childrens' autism was "we're a family; we'll figure it out". Not quite 8 years later, it's still working.

[Raf]

Johniam, my son was recently diagnosed with ASD. Your dedication to your children just raised you like a billion notches in my book. We may not agree on much, but you have my profound respect. Keep up the fight.

[chockfull]

Part of the problem for us is that 2 of my 3 children are autistic. TWI fellowship never had the capacity to accomodate situations like this. They all too quickly pulled out the proverbial rubber stamp which says POSSESSED. "I'm not responsible to love this person with the love of God! You can SEE he's possessed!" Glad Jesus didn't operate that way. This led to our leaving twi and also a different spinoff in MI late 90s. For the spinoff it was like CRF. More local people that the whole group. With twi it was the whole group.

Someone talking badly about autistic kids makes it even worse in my book.

You are 100% correct that TWI never had the capacity to handle this kind of thing. Actually I could broaden that and say that TWI never had the capacity or training of HFC's to handle ANYTHING out of the ordinary like this. And neither did the Way Corps training. So as a result, with the emphasis on conformity and obedience, the weak in leadership attack that which doesn't conform. And act worse than an unbeliever.

Even the world has a clue in these categories, and provides special needs attention in schools. It may not be perfect, but it's better than TWI.

I feel sorry you had to go through that johniam and family.

[Rejoice]

TWI never dealt with any illness---always perceived it as 'negative and possessed'. How many were let go when they became ill, including Mrs VPW in her senior years!

[waysider]

The Way dispensed "counseling" as freely as some dispense trick-or-treat candy on Halloween. What training did they offer their leaders that would qualify them to provide this service? If anyone had credentials, it would have to be because they brought them with them when they entered the organization. It's not likely many leaders got credentials from an outside source during their involvement, as The Way frowned heavily on that sort of thing. Wierwille set the stage for denigrating secular therapies and treatments early in the foundational class on Power For Abundant Living, when he belittled the value of "world wisdom".

[OldSkool]

The Way dispensed "counseling" as freely as some dispense trick-or-treat candy on Halloween. What training did they offer their leaders that would qualify them to provide this service?

I know your question is rhetorical, but let me emphatically state that when I throughout all four years of my way corps training we were never trained to counsel. Period. Yet as way corps I spent a lot of hours in counseling sessions. <_<

[excathedra]

Part of the problem for us is that 2 of my 3 children are autistic

how can i say this? THERE SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!

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the only problem you should have is not quite knowing what to do with all the loving kindness being showered upon you and your wife and your lovely children

[Ham]

The advanced class coordinators wife, was wrong obviously in doing what she did. But NOT forgiving someone for doing something wrong, is also not right

maybe the forgiveness aspect is outside of one's jurisdiction. I mean, yes, in the manner of humans here, I can forgive anyone of anything, but maybe its something I really don't have the authority to forgive..

I can forgive someone for cheating me out of 47.00 personally. But I can't forgive the same person for robbing a bank for 10,000,000 bucks or something..

it wasn't MY money, in personal terms, or in the same magnitude.

Johniam, my son was recently diagnosed with ASD. Your dedication to your children just raised you like a billion notches in my book. We may not agree on much, but you have my profound respect. Keep up the fight.

I call Johniam friend for much the same reason.

I can agree to disagree on any doctrinal point, including the merits of st. vic.

[johnj]

You can find an article that provides a good overview of CRF on www.abouttheway.org Click on "Splinter groups" on the home page, then click on the link to the Hendricks article

Like VPW, CRF teaches the “law of giving and receiving.” This and other spiritual “laws,” work for anyone who practices them, regardless of their religion (or atheism), morality (or immorality). The law of giving asserts that anyone who gives will receive back. Immutable “laws” that work for any human being are rooted in the New Thought movement of a century ago, not the Bible. This is related to teachings on prosperity.

This is all very convenient for both TWI and CRF because... they get the money...

many people noticed over the years that both VP and JH really, really liked it.

Every church I have ever been a part of produced financial reports monthly for all the officers (usually 6-10 people). They also published year to date reports which were given to everyone who attended voters meetings, which were held anywhere from 2 to 12 times a year. Everyone was invited to voters meetings, including people who weren't members of the church. Furthermore, offerings were counted and deposited by at least two, unrelated people. None of these were the treasurer, who wrote the checks. By separating the income and the outgo sides of finances, it helps prevent people skimming money for selfish purposes. TWI and CRF do not follow these honest practices. WHY NOT?

[Goey]

I have friends & relatives involved with CRF and about three years ago I sat through the CFR "Class" . The class was clearly modeled after PFAL with a similar format and many of the same teachings, the main difference being Hendricks did the monolog instead of Weirwille. There were a few doctrinal differences from PFAL but not many. They have a different take on "reverse believing" and maybe a few other things. Class sessions began with songs and prayer and ended with songs & "manifestations", typical of a 1970's PFAL class.

My take on this group is that, at the top, VP's teachings, as interpreted or modified by Hendricks, are the final say in regards to doctrine. I heard quite bit of "Doctor said this" and, "Doctor said that", and even more "John said this" and "John said that" ... suggesting that what these two men said and taught has authority. I don't recall if I heard any "Jesus saids" or not, but there were few if any.

I seriously doubt that there is much Biblical or Theological "research" going on. I did not hear anything about a research team or about a research center which doesn't these don't exist. The doctrine seems to be pretty firm so I am guessing that any "research" has to do with biblical study using the "keys" , but within the framework of the existing doctrine, as laid out by Hendricks.

I cannot comment upon organizational structure or the day to day experiences and practices of CRF followers because I never attended a meeting or did anything more than take the class. I can say that I did not see any emphasis upon money during my class experience. The people running the class were kind and cheerful and there were no bite marks or lipstick on the coffee cups.

[waysider]

"...the main difference being Hendricks did the monolog instead of Weirwille."

Oh, I hope he wore those skinny ties like Wierwille did. It just wouldn't be the same without them.

[skyrider]

There were a few doctrinal differences from PFAL but not many.

My take on this group is that, at the top, VP's teachings, as interpreted or modified by Hendricks....

Seems like many of wierwille's former "leaders" now have a psalm....a doctrine....and their OWN class.

Just like wierwille, tweak another's work and research a bit......and then, open the doors for business.

How many guys have "taken their marbles" and moved to another game across the street?

[penworks]

I knew him back in the day (early 1980s) when he was in Florida as limb leader but actually met him much earlier than that when he first got into TWI in NC. He passed away a few years ago and I understand that his older daughter is the one running this group.

Edited October 5, 2012 by penworks

[skyrider]

I knew him back in the day (early 1980s) when he was in Florida as limb leader but actually met him much earlier than that when he first got into TWI in NC. He passed away a few years ago and I understand that his older daughter is the one running this group.

Same with the Shroyer group (CFF).......daughter Tonia now sits in the big chair.

When will people wake up and see how these "ministries" are just businesses where administrators make a nice living

sitting in an office and/or traveling to seminars? Sheeeesh.

Edited October 5, 2012 by skyrider

[johnj]

Hendricks liked to copy from VPW, just as VP liked to copy from everybody else.

John Hendricks "authored" four books, all based on Wierwille’s books. CRF published Easy to Believe in 1997 (131 pp). which was based on Wierwille’s The Bible Tells Me So. He published God’s Healing Word in 1997 (241 pp), which was based on Power for Abundant Living (Wierwille’s book is the first four segments of the class) and E. W. Bullinger’s How to Enjoy the Bible, from which much of PFAL was taken, and his Knowing God class is just like VP's PFAL.

Hendricks' God’s Healing Word devotes a few chapters to its version of TWI’s belief that “Jesus Christ is not God,” criticizing (but not really understanding) Trinitarian belief. Hendricks lifts material from Wierwille’s book Jesus Christ is Not God, “proving” that Jesus is the Son of God because the New Testament uses the title 116 times—as though no evangelical Christian ever noticed that before. Hendricks shows the same shallowness of thinking that plagued Wierwille on this point, because he never stops to think what it means that Christ is the Son of God. Bullinger says- in a book Hendricks treats as an authority- that in Greek the article “the” is used twice in this phrase, indicating Deity, not humanity.

Hendricks published Power from on High in 1999, based on Wierwille’s Receiving the Holy Spirit Today (which was largely plagiarized from E. W. Bullinger’s The Giver and His Gifts). CRF also published God’s Way to Prosperity, based on TWI’s Christians Should Be Prosperous. Perhaps Henricks got the copycat gene from VP.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

His daughter Rochelle just parrots her late father and VPW. John was having legal problems at the time of his death with both the states of FL and GA about his ordained status.

[geisha779]

Hendricks liked to copy from VPW, just as VP liked to copy from everybody else.

John Hendricks "authored" four books, all based on Wierwille's books. CRF published Easy to Believe in 1997 (131 pp). which was based on Wierwille's The Bible Tells Me So. He published God's Healing Word in 1997 (241 pp), which was based on Power for Abundant Living (Wierwille's book is the first four segments of the class) and E. W. Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible, from which much of PFAL was taken, and his Knowing God class is just like VP's PFAL.

Hendricks' God's Healing Word devotes a few chapters to its version of TWI's belief that "Jesus Christ is not God," criticizing (but not really understanding) Trinitarian belief. Hendricks lifts material from Wierwille's book Jesus Christ is Not God, "proving" that Jesus is the Son of God because the New Testament uses the title 116 times—as though no evangelical Christian ever noticed that before. Hendricks shows the same shallowness of thinking that plagued Wierwille on this point, because he never stops to think what it means that Christ is the Son of God. Bullinger says- in a book Hendricks treats as an authority- that in Greek the article "the" is used twice in this phrase, indicating Deity, not humanity.

Hendricks published Power from on High in 1999, based on Wierwille's Receiving the Holy Spirit Today (which was largely plagiarized from E. W. Bullinger's The Giver and His Gifts). CRF also published God's Way to Prosperity, based on TWI's Christians Should Be Prosperous. Perhaps Henricks got the copycat gene from VP.

I am having a difficult time understanding how Hendricks wrote one book, let alone four? The man couldn't even write out a grocery list without help. Seriously. He had real issues with basic writing and he wrote like a six year old. I have dyslexia and I have struggled, so I am not being cruel here. He literally could not write. Someone must have helped him write those books as there is NO possible way he did it on his own. He would always invert bible references and left it to others to figure out. When we knew him he always had someone who would help him with basic everyday correspondence.

[chockfull]

I am having a difficult time understanding how Hendricks wrote one book, let alone four? The man couldn't even write out a grocery list without help. Seriously. He had real issues with basic writing and he wrote like a six year old. I have dyslexia and I have struggled, so I am not being cruel here. He literally could not write. Someone must have helped him write those books as there is NO possible way he did it on his own. He would always invert bible references and left it to others to figure out. When we knew him he always had someone who would help him with basic everyday correspondence.

He followed in his "father in the Word's" footsteps? Plagiarism makes it easier, right?

[Rejoice]

And he graduated from college?? I think his wife MaryAnn covered for him a lot.

[excathedra]

sad

[OperaBuff]

1349454278[/url]' post='546504']

Same with the Shroyer group (CFF).......daughter Tonia now sits in the big chair.

When will people wake up and see how these "ministries" are just businesses where administrators make a nice living

sitting in an office and/or traveling to seminars? Sheeeesh.

i want POWER which i will use FOR giving myself an ABUNDANT LIVING. oh, and i want lots of free sex on the side. amen. hey, look at it snow!

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

I never understood what Mary Ann Daly saw in him. She could have been a concert pianist. Rochelle their daughter seems nice but clueless as President of CF & R

[Linda Z]

I've never heard of this group except on GS, but I've avoided all offshoots like the plague so I'm way out of that loop.

Rochelle their daughter seems nice but clueless as President of CF & R

Thomas, have you attended a fellowship she spoke at, or read something she wrote? I'm just curious how you know she's clueless and seems nice. You seem to know about many offshoots. Did you check them out personally? That would be an interesting thread for you to start if you have.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

I have some of John's books and received their teaching CD's for a while, likewise materials from S&TF, and CFFM plus music CD's from all 3 groups. Just plagarized Wierwille with new kinks in them, and the music isn't up to Way Productions of the 70's standards, much les CCM from the 1990's onward or classical hymnody