Thanks, JustLoafing. I've come to expect personal attacks from the people on the board who don't know how to discuss things or handle it when someone disagrees with them. ;)
John, the point I was making with my comments was that someone being "banned" "M&A", excommunicated or otherwise no longer allowed to attend functions would surely be something that passed up the food chain (it should be anyway) and, therefore, the uppity up ups in your group would have been made aware of the situation and, obviously, stood behind the local leadership. Which is why I say it's the same and no better than TWI. IF those high up on the food chain really cared, they would have asked for your side of the story and then made a decision based on the facts of both sides. (I think that sounds pretty petty for not allowing you to continue to associate yourselves with them and would never expect that something like that would happen with any truly godly organization, but that's another subject in and of itself.)
People do not get kicked out of churches these days so far as I'm aware. They may be counselled and, if they pose serious harm or threat, they may be asked to leave, but that is something that would go to the highest levels in the church and through some serious scrutiny of the situation before it would happen. At least that's how it goes in my church and not one person has ever been kicked out in the history of the church.
Belle: All right. Thank you for clarifying that. Your post (#24) came off to me as a calloused dismissal of everything I said in the name of hating TWI/VPW. I apologize.
I'm not sure to this day if John Hendricks even heard about the incident. On one hand, you'd think he'd want to know if someone left the class, but on another hand, by leaving we certainly put the STL area cordo in an awkward position....that somebody from his own fellowship blew off the AC. In 1984 I was reproved because someone I signed up for PFAL foundational class was 10 minutes late for session 3 and wasn't allowed to finish THAT class (had to wait for the next one, which he did) so I'm hearing this...."You're an AC grad; how could you let this happen?" WTF???
So that guy could've told them anything to cover his rear. No idea. But our kids weren't interested in fellowship at all any more so what happened was simply the last straw. Now they all like going to fellowship.
Your point is legit: any group that kicks people out for stuff like that will invite suspicion. But I'm still a believer in much of what TWI taught and not willing to dismiss a group with over 1000 people in it just because of what happened to me. Even with JH dead they're still doing ACs and all their other programs.
Thanks for the explanation. The one thing that always bugged me about all these groups is how readily they throw around the accusation, "You're unforgiving".
Forgiveness is the responsibility of the one who is wronged. It's to their own benefit to choose to forgive. Doesn't meant to FORGET---it just means to release themselves from hurt or anger that keeps them from moving forward.
Truly unforgiving people will go away and stew on their own anyway.
I, on the other hand will forgive, but I will always be cautious until it is shown to me that the situation was unique or foolishly handled.
If it is not unique, I will choose caution in interacting with that individual at the same level as I did previously before the injury occurred. I think that's just wise discernment---not unforgiveness. And it's my choice, not the directive of some outside person.
John Hendricks was the corps coordinator when I was in the family corps. We heard that he wasn't as legalistic as the previous one at Rome City (Moneyhands?...it's been so long, but I think Bob and Dotty were the ones in charge the year before we arrived). Anyway, Wierwille came to our campus frequently that year and had made mention that he was impressed by John's business sense...I believe he had owned a landscaping company, and we know how money impressed the he11 out of VP.
Anyway, in our first year there was a family who abruptly left. Slon*kers, I believe...a married couple and their maybe two-year old boy. Their leaving came as a surprise to us, and afterward Hendricks held a meeting in the chapel with all the in-resident corps and proceeded to trash them. I don't know if they were guilty of the accusations, but it bothered hubs and I that they weren't there to defend themselves. In fact, those two years we frequently talked about the "power of the one who held the microphone", and how unfair many things were, but we talked privately.
My general impression those two years was that he could have been worse...not exactly a glowing endorsement.
I've only been to 1 church that ever disclosed financial info to the 'rank and file'. They had a framed note right out in the lobby in full view of any and everyone. But it had even dollar figures for every place money was given to so you KNOW some of those things were bank accounts that one or more people had access to. When I fellowship with anybody I first determine if God is able to bless people in the place. Doesn't take long to determine that. I don't have to know everything that everybody does; I HAVE to give them the benefit of the doubt up to a point.
ABS has been a non issue for me most of the time. There were times after we left TWI when we didn't ABS to anyone, and God still spit in our direction just like He always had before, so everything was cool, I guess. But if I have serious misgivings about a church or ministry, I'll just leave like we did CRF.
Again I would say that paying a gas attendant is massively different than tithing. I don't even know how the two could ever be compared. Next, lots of larger churches permit record inspection for those who are interested. Church elders and deacons have routine access to this information and can , if they so desire, inspect it in greater detail to their satisfaction. Obviously such reports are far too detailed to post on a wall somewhere or print up for general distribution though I've been to churches that willingly distribute financial summary information which includes number of members. Many in the congregation don't look beyond this but there are those who do. I know. I 'm one of them.
TWI never did anything like this , just the opposite in fact. Just buried this information. Why ? Because people were living like kings while others lived stacked 4 to an apartment working at the quickie mart so they could spend the bulk of thier time pushing PFAL and helping stock the coffers at HQ ? ANY church (TWI, the catholic church, a way offshoot) who blocks access to their financial records from members is hiding something.
Also, a gas station isn't exempt from paying taxes like a church is, thus requiring the need for open disclosure of its finances to the public. I mean, simply calling yourself a church doesn't/shouldn't automatically entitle you to being exempt from taxes.
Interestingly, CRF is not tax exempt; their status is for profit. I heard that now if you're tax exempt you can't diss the govt. I also heard that the Rock Church lost their tax exempt status for that. John Hendricks didn't diss the govt overly much, but I remember him taking some pot shots at Bill Clinton a few times.
As far as the accessibility of financial records goes, I don't HAVE to know anything about that to be comfortable in a fellowship. True, it could be argued that if a church is not faithful in that which is least (finances), then how can they be faithful in that which is much (taking care of God's people). But insisting on seeing the books right from the get go would send the message that you don't trust them. That would offend me if I was a church minister or administrator.
Also, in 1984 or 85 TWI gave every twig cordo a "Public relations portfolio" which did disclose some financial info.
I am not a part of the way but am a member of a spin-off called Christian Fellowship and Research (CFNR). It was founded by John Hendricks. All i have been able to find out about the group is that Hendricks at one point was a part of the way and saw it as his mission to continue the work of Dr Weirwille(sp?). Anyways any information anyone might have on him would be greatly appreciated as I am considering joining it and have heard alot of iffy stuff about the way. is this group safe, or just the way with another name?
Christian Research & Fellowship is just a name given to a very loving group of people, who use it as a vehicle to move the rightly divided word of God over the world.
Legally any group doing anything on a large scale such as this has to be registered properly so as to meet the demands of the Goverment and it's laws.
All that aside......... The name itself does describe the activities of CR&F.
They are a research, teaching and fellowship ministry, who teach people how to know God experientially by rightyly dividing the word of God, to the point that they can understand it and practically live it in their daily lives.
There is nothing to join, you do not join up or sign-up to the group. If you are hungry to know God and his wonderful word, and want to experience and live the power of God in your life, just go to a fellowship that you have been invited to.
They do not keep records on you, control you etc. However, you will learn if you want to know, God's will and heart about things in life, and then it's your choice and decision to change if you want to see the power of God move in your life.
If you take any of the classes that they offer, of course they will have a record of the class you took, because you will sign up to take it.
Any of the negatives in this thread that you have heard are just second hand, and not from anyone who is actively participating with CR&F, I assure you..........
You will get many responses in this forum from people who probably have been hurt by the Way in some form or fashion, and have some anger about it. Which I totally understand, although, if they were really true followers of the Love of God, they would not act nor speak in the manner in which they do..........
You'll have to decide on your own, who you are going to believe? People who are not associated with CR&F in anyway, or those who have experience the Love of God, that is lived and shared by the people involved with CR&F..... it's your choice.
Any of the negatives in this thread that you have heard are just second hand, and not from anyone who is actively participating with CR&F, I assure you..........
So you are stating that the firsthand experiences of johniam recorded on this thread are not true? He went to a CR&F advanced class, was slandered by local leadership, left the class, and was told he was unwelcome at fellowships.
And we are supposed to believe your vague generalities and pious platitudes over factual accounts?
Why don't we start here - who are you? What is your involvement with CR&F? What is your position with them? Who is running them now? Where is the website?
Welcome to Gspot and I applaud you for wanting to do a little background check on any group that you are considering "joining."
I have never attended any of their fellowships, but I am an "expert" on the way (does 28 years in count?)
I knew John and his wife and I think they are personally decent people, and they THINK they are serving God in their own hearts.
THAT SAID..................their entire doctrine is based on and copied over from A CULT. Their foundation in the bible comes from what they learned from A CULT. Their structure, and teaching styles come from what they learned in A CULT. At this point in time, I hope you are asking yourself.......if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.....how can it BE anything other than a DUCK????
There are a couple of books that are available for you to read........THE CULT THAT SNAPPED, and the SUBTLE POWER OF SPIRITUAL PERSUASION, both books are a MUST READ before you make your decision, just so you know within yourself that you looked at both sides of the issue. And, here at gspot, there are many, many people whose lives and stories are great resources.
Good Luck in your search Richard.
Radar
Richard, an expert on "The Way"? What does that mean?
If after 28 years you have not learned how to love with the love of God, then I assure you it's not God's fault or any organization's fault for sure.
It's either you did not want to change or you were not taught "HOW" to Love people with the love of God?
Knowing the doctrine of "the Way" myself ( I was not a member but have read and heard just about everything ever taught or spoken by Dr. Wierwille ) I would have to say that it is not that you were not exposed to the love of God nor taught the love of God, but that it just did not stick.
Using a scare word such as Cult is what the devil and his cohorts have been doing ever since the word of God started to move in the first century.
Back then they used the word "sect". Jesus Christ was called a "leader of the sect of the Nazerines" by who? The very people who were against the true movement of God and his word.
Directing someone to read books filled with fear, deceit, skeptisim, bitterness, and outright evil, spoken by people who are surely not in fellowship with God, is also a crazy and very unloving thing to do, especially if you are truly trying to bring someone to the light of God's word.
In order to do that, you have to speak God's word in Love, not send people to the opposite of God's love and word. That in itself should be a simple thing for you or anyone who reads my post to understand.
Stay spiritually sharp people,
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Directing someone to read books filled with fear, deceit, skeptisim, bitterness, and outright evil, spoken by people who are surely not in fellowship with God, is also a crazy and very unloving thing to do, especially if you are truly trying to bring someone to the light of God's word.
Wow. So obviously you haven't read any of those books. For example, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". How exactly is it loving for you to trash these two gentlemen's heart efforts in presenting scripture from their perspective of growing a church in Minnesota from 160 to 3000 members? And how to keep spiritual abuse out of their congregation?
Suffice it to say that book is not filled with fear, deceit, skepticism, bitterness, or outright evil. In contrast, it is filled with scripture, godly experience, wisdom, and love. Try reading it rather than censoring it with ignorance and hateful talk, all while promulgating being "loving" and lecturing us on being "spiritually sharp".
So you are stating that the firsthand experiences of johniam recorded on this thread are not true? He went to a CR&F advanced class, was slandered by local leadership, left the class, and was told he was unwelcome at fellowships.
And we are supposed to believe your vague generalities and pious platitudes over factual accounts?
Why don't we start here - who are you? What is your involvement with CR&F? What is your position with them? Who is running them now? Where is the website?
It seems to me as if an incident happened according to him at the advanced class. The advanced class coordinators wife, was wrong obviously in doing what she did. But NOT forgiving someone for doing something wrong, is also not right. To wrongs do not make one right I assure you.
I do not think I know the person who this happened to, but I may, because I have been at every advanced class of CR&F since 1998. Except for the last 2 years. The situation was handled it seems to me, in the right way. johniam was told that if he could not work it out with the person who apologized, and forgive, then he had to leave. What else would you think they could have done at the advanced class? Allow them all to stay in the house together with unforgiveness in one persons heart towards another? johniam had every right to be upset, I agree, I would have been not blessed either, but I also would have no problem forgiving someone who obviously did something wrong if they apologized. Forgiveness is for both peoples heart. The one forgiving gets healing in the act of forgiving, and the one who made the mistake can get their heart healed knowing the other person forgives them.
johniam had a decision to make, to be loving (meaning forgive) or do not forgive, which is a basic principle of the love of God. If he had forgiven I am sure that all would have been taken care of by God. And the best situation for all involved would have come to pass. Maybe they would not have stayed in the same house for that class, I don't know, it was not my decision to make, I was not there, nor would I honestly have wanted to make a decision, but if I did, it would of been along the same lines.
Just the mere fact that johniam refused to forgive was not wise or loving. Some people are just built that way in their old man ways, and those type of people unless they change will not get along with anyone or group for very long, because forgiveness is REQUIRED in order to walk in fellowship with God and with the family of God. Even if others have done something wrong. If no one ever did anything wrong, why would we even need forgiveness?
I hope you see my point?
As for your other questions, they do not matter at all in regards to what I am saying. I speak from first hand experience just as the other guy. Whom, I believe has a great heart, but just needs to forgive a little easier. No matter what. God forgave Paul for murdering Christians, the Advanced class cooridinators wife in question surely did not do anything close to that.
Wow. So obviously you haven't read any of those books. For example, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". How exactly is it loving for you to trash these two gentlemen's heart efforts in presenting scripture from their perspective of growing a church in Minnesota from 160 to 3000 members? And how to keep spiritual abuse out of their congregation?
Suffice it to say that book is not filled with fear, deceit, skepticism, bitterness, or outright evil. In contrast, it is filled with scripture, godly experience, wisdom, and love. Try reading it rather than censoring it with ignorance and hateful talk, all while promulgating being "loving" and lecturing us on being "spiritually sharp".
The books were mentioned and "suggested to be read" from someone who obviously has some issues, to a person genuinely searching for truth and God.
If Richard really wanted to help them and bring them to God, he would not have suggested books like that.
I am not going to defend what I am saying to you, I am merely telling it like it is, the truth. And what I see on this forum are a bunch of very unloving people who are filled with bitterness and fear, and who knows what else, smearing other people. Sure people in the way did some crazy stuff that was not right according to God's word, but that is not God's fault. All the evil that was done, did was it was purposed to do, split up a very large body of people who originally had the best of intentions and who wanted to love God and others.
Time to move on, and live the love of God towards others, especially towards those in the household of God.
I just love these posts from people who weren't there but are SURE they know what happened.
How refreshing.
How long is it going to be before you get over what happened and move on?
Forgetting those things which are past, and reaching forth unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ?
I am not meaning to sound as if I am trying to be a jerk, but honestly, it's time to forgive and forget and move on with the love of God.
Isn't that what we are supposed to do? No matter what has happened.
If you want to believe that my intention is to hurt and not heal that is your right. But I assure you the advice that I am giving is solid and based on the word.
It seems to me as if an incident happened according to him at the advanced class. The advanced class coordinators wife, was wrong obviously in doing what she did. But NOT forgiving someone for doing something wrong, is also not right. To wrongs do not make one right I assure you.
I do not think I know the person who this happened to, but I may, because I have been at every advanced class of CR&F since 1998. Except for the last 2 years. The situation was handled it seems to me, in the right way. johniam was told that if he could not work it out with the person who apologized, and forgive, then he had to leave. What else would you think they could have done at the advanced class? Allow them all to stay in the house together with unforgiveness in one persons heart towards another? johniam had every right to be upset, I agree, I would have been not blessed either, but I also would have no problem forgiving someone who obviously did something wrong if they apologized. Forgiveness is for both peoples heart. The one forgiving gets healing in the act of forgiving, and the one who made the mistake can get their heart healed knowing the other person forgives them.
So the progress I'm seeing in this post is at least NOW you are admitting this is a firsthand account as opposed to calling it:
Any of the negatives in this thread that you have heard are just second hand, and not from anyone who is actively participating with CR&F, I assure you..........
From what I read, johniam heard someone slander his wife and children. The person doing the slandering was not only a CR&F member, but also the local fellowship coordinator, and as well the house coordinator at the Adv. Class. As such, that person had a spiritual responsibility in leadership beyond just being a sister in Christ, and screwed it up. Yes, she apologized, but with the level of thought involved with the slander obviously this was not just an off-the-cuff statement, but slander that was very thought-thru and very unloving. It takes time to unravel thoughts like that that have been given time to brood in that fashion. Realize that this person was at CR&F's apex event of the year, and was a representative of the organization. What evidence was there beyond a simple apology that all of those evil thoughts in the woman's heart had been dealt with, rooted out, and reversed?
johniam made a reasonable decision. If I had a wife and children were denigrated and slandered by a leader in the organization, I probably would have left that class too. would you want your kids facing an uphill battle against an unloving woman with a slanderous opinion of them?
johniam had a decision to make, to be loving (meaning forgive) or do not forgive, which is a basic principle of the love of God. If he had forgiven I am sure that all would have been taken care of by God. And the best situation for all involved would have come to pass. Maybe they would not have stayed in the same house for that class, I don't know, it was not my decision to make, I was not there, nor would I honestly have wanted to make a decision, but if I did, it would of been along the same lines.
When they all arrived home from the advanced class, that leader's wife had a decision to make. to be loving (meaning to accept the full consequences of her sin of slandering johniam and continue to be apologetic for that sin), or to abuse her position of spiritual authority to try and force john to "forgive" and when she couldn't get his verbal acquiescence, to kick him out of the fellowship and say he was no longer welcome.
Just the mere fact that johniam refused to forgive was not wise or loving. Some people are just built that way in their old man ways, and those type of people unless they change will not get along with anyone or group for very long, because forgiveness is REQUIRED in order to walk in fellowship with God and with the family of God. Even if others have done something wrong. If no one ever did anything wrong, why would we even need forgiveness?
some people say they are walking in love yet slander other people. some of them do this even while holding responsibility in the Christian church. Their old man ways are so encrusted that they feel their position of authority is more important than their behavior. thus they throw their spiritual weight around to force compliance, otherwise they kick people out. this is false repentance. it is not love. it is spiritual abuse. they are the ones that should be asking for forgiveness for the hardness of their heart, rather than trying to force it out of others.
I hope you see my point?
Well, I certainly see that for you, rather than slandering David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen who wrote "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", that maybe you ought to read it. It could improve your "spiritual sharpness".
As for your other questions, they do not matter at all in regards to what I am saying. I speak from first hand experience just as the other guy. Whom, I believe has a great heart, but just needs to forgive a little easier. No matter what. God forgave Paul for murdering Christians, the Advanced class cooridinators wife in question surely did not do anything close to that.
Love in Christ,
No, her sin was slander, followed by covering it up by kicking johniam out. She was joined in that sin by her husband, as well as the leadership in CR&F who knew about this and backed her up. How many that involved, who knows? People aren't entitled to forgiveness from someone they wronged, they earn it. Even if God instructs to forgive grevious sins, it NEVER is the place of a leader to use strong-arm tactics to enforce this.
The books were mentioned and "suggested to be read" from someone who obviously has some issues, to a person genuinely searching for truth and God.
If Richard really wanted to help them and bring them to God, he would not have suggested books like that.
Well, maybe if the entire organization was familiar with that book and stood against the practice of spiritual abuse, they would be able to detect and eliminate it in their midst. And again, you denigrating and censoring books you have not read is not living the love of God, it is ignorance and slander.
I am not going to defend what I am saying to you, I am merely telling it like it is, the truth. And what I see on this forum are a bunch of very unloving people who are filled with bitterness and fear, and who knows what else, smearing other people. Sure people in the way did some crazy stuff that was not right according to God's word, but that is not God's fault. All the evil that was done, did was it was purposed to do, split up a very large body of people who originally had the best of intentions and who wanted to love God and others.
I see something different on this forum. I see a whole bunch of God's children who were very hurt by false leaders in a supposed Christian organization. They are all recovering, trying to love God and one another, heal, and move on.
And sometimes there are judgmental and unloving people who blow thru and call them names, judge them, and accuse them of things. And usually those people excuse the sins of the abusive leadership.
Hmmm. Now which one of these groups do you think represents more of the love of God?
Time to move on, and live the love of God towards others, especially towards those in the household of God.
I'm not defending what I'm telling you either. It is the simple honest truth. If you want to move on and build relationships with people in the household of God, then do it. If not, then I guess calling people names and leaving works too. It's not a Christian behavior, but I've come to see that you can't believe everyone's words - you have to see the fruit of their lives.
Welcome to Greasespot, LoveOneAnother. Your right to express your views is welcome here. There will be responses. There will be challenges. But we hope you stick around and enjoy the menu.
Joining any Internet forum involves some growth as you learn the ropes of how this place works and the rest of us learn the ropes of how you work. We hope and trust it will be a constructive experience for everyone.
So, what do we win if we did know Hendricks up close and personal? Personally, I am just glad we did survive how he personified the "love of God". It was questionable that one would survive if you got on his bad side or money was involved.
How anyone could support a ministry founded on his perception of God, the scriptures, or love, is beyond me. From my vantage point....it is not the people posting here who have a problem.
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doojable
My good friend is a member of that fellowship. I know that John did not adhere strictly to all that DR Weirwille taught. He reworked things and greatly encouraged people to go to the Word and figure
Belle
Welcome, Richard! As promised, here are the fresh baked cinnamon rolls today. Please, help yourself. :) I don't know a thing about John Hendricks, but I do know a bit about TWI and I would never ge
Raf
Johniam, my son was recently diagnosed with ASD. Your dedication to your children just raised you like a billion notches in my book. We may not agree on much, but you have my profound respect. Keep up
Belle
Thanks, JustLoafing. I've come to expect personal attacks from the people on the board who don't know how to discuss things or handle it when someone disagrees with them. ;)
John, the point I was making with my comments was that someone being "banned" "M&A", excommunicated or otherwise no longer allowed to attend functions would surely be something that passed up the food chain (it should be anyway) and, therefore, the uppity up ups in your group would have been made aware of the situation and, obviously, stood behind the local leadership. Which is why I say it's the same and no better than TWI. IF those high up on the food chain really cared, they would have asked for your side of the story and then made a decision based on the facts of both sides. (I think that sounds pretty petty for not allowing you to continue to associate yourselves with them and would never expect that something like that would happen with any truly godly organization, but that's another subject in and of itself.)
People do not get kicked out of churches these days so far as I'm aware. They may be counselled and, if they pose serious harm or threat, they may be asked to leave, but that is something that would go to the highest levels in the church and through some serious scrutiny of the situation before it would happen. At least that's how it goes in my church and not one person has ever been kicked out in the history of the church.
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johniam
Belle: All right. Thank you for clarifying that. Your post (#24) came off to me as a calloused dismissal of everything I said in the name of hating TWI/VPW. I apologize.
I'm not sure to this day if John Hendricks even heard about the incident. On one hand, you'd think he'd want to know if someone left the class, but on another hand, by leaving we certainly put the STL area cordo in an awkward position....that somebody from his own fellowship blew off the AC. In 1984 I was reproved because someone I signed up for PFAL foundational class was 10 minutes late for session 3 and wasn't allowed to finish THAT class (had to wait for the next one, which he did) so I'm hearing this...."You're an AC grad; how could you let this happen?" WTF???
So that guy could've told them anything to cover his rear. No idea. But our kids weren't interested in fellowship at all any more so what happened was simply the last straw. Now they all like going to fellowship.
Your point is legit: any group that kicks people out for stuff like that will invite suspicion. But I'm still a believer in much of what TWI taught and not willing to dismiss a group with over 1000 people in it just because of what happened to me. Even with JH dead they're still doing ACs and all their other programs.
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Rejoice
Thanks for the explanation. The one thing that always bugged me about all these groups is how readily they throw around the accusation, "You're unforgiving".
Forgiveness is the responsibility of the one who is wronged. It's to their own benefit to choose to forgive. Doesn't meant to FORGET---it just means to release themselves from hurt or anger that keeps them from moving forward.
Truly unforgiving people will go away and stew on their own anyway.
I, on the other hand will forgive, but I will always be cautious until it is shown to me that the situation was unique or foolishly handled.
If it is not unique, I will choose caution in interacting with that individual at the same level as I did previously before the injury occurred. I think that's just wise discernment---not unforgiveness. And it's my choice, not the directive of some outside person.
I answer to God on this one.
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tonto
John Hendricks was the corps coordinator when I was in the family corps. We heard that he wasn't as legalistic as the previous one at Rome City (Moneyhands?...it's been so long, but I think Bob and Dotty were the ones in charge the year before we arrived). Anyway, Wierwille came to our campus frequently that year and had made mention that he was impressed by John's business sense...I believe he had owned a landscaping company, and we know how money impressed the he11 out of VP.
Anyway, in our first year there was a family who abruptly left. Slon*kers, I believe...a married couple and their maybe two-year old boy. Their leaving came as a surprise to us, and afterward Hendricks held a meeting in the chapel with all the in-resident corps and proceeded to trash them. I don't know if they were guilty of the accusations, but it bothered hubs and I that they weren't there to defend themselves. In fact, those two years we frequently talked about the "power of the one who held the microphone", and how unfair many things were, but we talked privately.
My general impression those two years was that he could have been worse...not exactly a glowing endorsement.
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diazbro
Interesting "logic" at work here...Gas stations and their attendants aren't usually soliciting your money as a
means to promote "the word over the world" or some form of the christian message. Eveyone knows that gas stations
and oil companines are in "business" to make money ! There is no secrecy in that message.
Now, I give money to a church which presumably is promoting the word and is on a christian mission. I see their
tax returns every year as does any member who cares to. Church leaders don't complain, whine, and moan
about this. In fact they are quite interested in getting feedback on how the church should be spending money
and what programs and initiatives should be given a priority. The congregation gives the money and we have
a say in how its spent. So why can't TWI or its off shoots that maintain financial contribtiuons
do the same ? These organizations exist only because people gave money and labor to enable it.
What is to hide ? Especially if they are truly working to make a difference in the lives of people ?
Of course if one believes that church "administrators" (ahem) should be able to take a slice off the top to fund personal
acquisitions and investments then I can see how that person would want to have church records sealed and kept
secret.
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johniam
I've only been to 1 church that ever disclosed financial info to the 'rank and file'. They had a framed note right out in the lobby in full view of any and everyone. But it had even dollar figures for every place money was given to so you KNOW some of those things were bank accounts that one or more people had access to. When I fellowship with anybody I first determine if God is able to bless people in the place. Doesn't take long to determine that. I don't have to know everything that everybody does; I HAVE to give them the benefit of the doubt up to a point.
ABS has been a non issue for me most of the time. There were times after we left TWI when we didn't ABS to anyone, and God still spit in our direction just like He always had before, so everything was cool, I guess. But if I have serious misgivings about a church or ministry, I'll just leave like we did CRF.
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diazbro
Again I would say that paying a gas attendant is massively different than tithing. I don't even know how the two could ever be compared. Next, lots of larger churches permit record inspection for those who are interested. Church elders and deacons have routine access to this information and can , if they so desire, inspect it in greater detail to their satisfaction. Obviously such reports are far too detailed to post on a wall somewhere or print up for general distribution though I've been to churches that willingly distribute financial summary information which includes number of members. Many in the congregation don't look beyond this but there are those who do. I know. I 'm one of them.
TWI never did anything like this , just the opposite in fact. Just buried this information. Why ? Because people were living like kings while others lived stacked 4 to an apartment working at the quickie mart so they could spend the bulk of thier time pushing PFAL and helping stock the coffers at HQ ? ANY church (TWI, the catholic church, a way offshoot) who blocks access to their financial records from members is hiding something.
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GarthP2000
Also, a gas station isn't exempt from paying taxes like a church is, thus requiring the need for open disclosure of its finances to the public. I mean, simply calling yourself a church doesn't/shouldn't automatically entitle you to being exempt from taxes.
If it were that simple ........
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
the rc church i attend has a financal report in the church bulliten once a month
and each week they publish how much $ was recieved the previous week!
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johniam
Interestingly, CRF is not tax exempt; their status is for profit. I heard that now if you're tax exempt you can't diss the govt. I also heard that the Rock Church lost their tax exempt status for that. John Hendricks didn't diss the govt overly much, but I remember him taking some pot shots at Bill Clinton a few times.
As far as the accessibility of financial records goes, I don't HAVE to know anything about that to be comfortable in a fellowship. True, it could be argued that if a church is not faithful in that which is least (finances), then how can they be faithful in that which is much (taking care of God's people). But insisting on seeing the books right from the get go would send the message that you don't trust them. That would offend me if I was a church minister or administrator.
Also, in 1984 or 85 TWI gave every twig cordo a "Public relations portfolio" which did disclose some financial info.
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GrouchoMarxJr
My suggestion is to stay away from twi and all it's offshoots...
...there's plenty of good churches around...joining up with a cult will only come back to haunt you.
...and yes, I knew John Hendricks...
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LoveOneAnother
Christian Research & Fellowship is just a name given to a very loving group of people, who use it as a vehicle to move the rightly divided word of God over the world.
Legally any group doing anything on a large scale such as this has to be registered properly so as to meet the demands of the Goverment and it's laws.
All that aside......... The name itself does describe the activities of CR&F.
They are a research, teaching and fellowship ministry, who teach people how to know God experientially by rightyly dividing the word of God, to the point that they can understand it and practically live it in their daily lives.
There is nothing to join, you do not join up or sign-up to the group. If you are hungry to know God and his wonderful word, and want to experience and live the power of God in your life, just go to a fellowship that you have been invited to.
They do not keep records on you, control you etc. However, you will learn if you want to know, God's will and heart about things in life, and then it's your choice and decision to change if you want to see the power of God move in your life.
If you take any of the classes that they offer, of course they will have a record of the class you took, because you will sign up to take it.
Any of the negatives in this thread that you have heard are just second hand, and not from anyone who is actively participating with CR&F, I assure you..........
You will get many responses in this forum from people who probably have been hurt by the Way in some form or fashion, and have some anger about it. Which I totally understand, although, if they were really true followers of the Love of God, they would not act nor speak in the manner in which they do..........
You'll have to decide on your own, who you are going to believe? People who are not associated with CR&F in anyway, or those who have experience the Love of God, that is lived and shared by the people involved with CR&F..... it's your choice.
Go to a fellowship and check it out........
Love in Christ,
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chockfull
So you are stating that the firsthand experiences of johniam recorded on this thread are not true? He went to a CR&F advanced class, was slandered by local leadership, left the class, and was told he was unwelcome at fellowships.
And we are supposed to believe your vague generalities and pious platitudes over factual accounts?
Why don't we start here - who are you? What is your involvement with CR&F? What is your position with them? Who is running them now? Where is the website?
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LoveOneAnother
Richard, an expert on "The Way"? What does that mean?
If after 28 years you have not learned how to love with the love of God, then I assure you it's not God's fault or any organization's fault for sure.
It's either you did not want to change or you were not taught "HOW" to Love people with the love of God?
Knowing the doctrine of "the Way" myself ( I was not a member but have read and heard just about everything ever taught or spoken by Dr. Wierwille ) I would have to say that it is not that you were not exposed to the love of God nor taught the love of God, but that it just did not stick.
Using a scare word such as Cult is what the devil and his cohorts have been doing ever since the word of God started to move in the first century.
Back then they used the word "sect". Jesus Christ was called a "leader of the sect of the Nazerines" by who? The very people who were against the true movement of God and his word.
Directing someone to read books filled with fear, deceit, skeptisim, bitterness, and outright evil, spoken by people who are surely not in fellowship with God, is also a crazy and very unloving thing to do, especially if you are truly trying to bring someone to the light of God's word.
In order to do that, you have to speak God's word in Love, not send people to the opposite of God's love and word. That in itself should be a simple thing for you or anyone who reads my post to understand.
Stay spiritually sharp people,
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Love in Christ,
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waysider
I just love these posts from people who weren't there but are SURE they know what happened.
How refreshing.
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chockfull
Wow. So obviously you haven't read any of those books. For example, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". How exactly is it loving for you to trash these two gentlemen's heart efforts in presenting scripture from their perspective of growing a church in Minnesota from 160 to 3000 members? And how to keep spiritual abuse out of their congregation?
Suffice it to say that book is not filled with fear, deceit, skepticism, bitterness, or outright evil. In contrast, it is filled with scripture, godly experience, wisdom, and love. Try reading it rather than censoring it with ignorance and hateful talk, all while promulgating being "loving" and lecturing us on being "spiritually sharp".
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LoveOneAnother
It seems to me as if an incident happened according to him at the advanced class. The advanced class coordinators wife, was wrong obviously in doing what she did. But NOT forgiving someone for doing something wrong, is also not right. To wrongs do not make one right I assure you.
I do not think I know the person who this happened to, but I may, because I have been at every advanced class of CR&F since 1998. Except for the last 2 years. The situation was handled it seems to me, in the right way. johniam was told that if he could not work it out with the person who apologized, and forgive, then he had to leave. What else would you think they could have done at the advanced class? Allow them all to stay in the house together with unforgiveness in one persons heart towards another? johniam had every right to be upset, I agree, I would have been not blessed either, but I also would have no problem forgiving someone who obviously did something wrong if they apologized. Forgiveness is for both peoples heart. The one forgiving gets healing in the act of forgiving, and the one who made the mistake can get their heart healed knowing the other person forgives them.
johniam had a decision to make, to be loving (meaning forgive) or do not forgive, which is a basic principle of the love of God. If he had forgiven I am sure that all would have been taken care of by God. And the best situation for all involved would have come to pass. Maybe they would not have stayed in the same house for that class, I don't know, it was not my decision to make, I was not there, nor would I honestly have wanted to make a decision, but if I did, it would of been along the same lines.
Just the mere fact that johniam refused to forgive was not wise or loving. Some people are just built that way in their old man ways, and those type of people unless they change will not get along with anyone or group for very long, because forgiveness is REQUIRED in order to walk in fellowship with God and with the family of God. Even if others have done something wrong. If no one ever did anything wrong, why would we even need forgiveness?
I hope you see my point?
As for your other questions, they do not matter at all in regards to what I am saying. I speak from first hand experience just as the other guy. Whom, I believe has a great heart, but just needs to forgive a little easier. No matter what. God forgave Paul for murdering Christians, the Advanced class cooridinators wife in question surely did not do anything close to that.
Love in Christ,
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LoveOneAnother
The books were mentioned and "suggested to be read" from someone who obviously has some issues, to a person genuinely searching for truth and God.
If Richard really wanted to help them and bring them to God, he would not have suggested books like that.
I am not going to defend what I am saying to you, I am merely telling it like it is, the truth. And what I see on this forum are a bunch of very unloving people who are filled with bitterness and fear, and who knows what else, smearing other people. Sure people in the way did some crazy stuff that was not right according to God's word, but that is not God's fault. All the evil that was done, did was it was purposed to do, split up a very large body of people who originally had the best of intentions and who wanted to love God and others.
Time to move on, and live the love of God towards others, especially towards those in the household of God.
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LoveOneAnother
How long is it going to be before you get over what happened and move on?
Forgetting those things which are past, and reaching forth unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ?
I am not meaning to sound as if I am trying to be a jerk, but honestly, it's time to forgive and forget and move on with the love of God.
Isn't that what we are supposed to do? No matter what has happened.
If you want to believe that my intention is to hurt and not heal that is your right. But I assure you the advice that I am giving is solid and based on the word.
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excathedra
did john (sadly) pass away?
what is the link for CFNR?
thank you
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chockfull
So the progress I'm seeing in this post is at least NOW you are admitting this is a firsthand account as opposed to calling it:
From what I read, johniam heard someone slander his wife and children. The person doing the slandering was not only a CR&F member, but also the local fellowship coordinator, and as well the house coordinator at the Adv. Class. As such, that person had a spiritual responsibility in leadership beyond just being a sister in Christ, and screwed it up. Yes, she apologized, but with the level of thought involved with the slander obviously this was not just an off-the-cuff statement, but slander that was very thought-thru and very unloving. It takes time to unravel thoughts like that that have been given time to brood in that fashion. Realize that this person was at CR&F's apex event of the year, and was a representative of the organization. What evidence was there beyond a simple apology that all of those evil thoughts in the woman's heart had been dealt with, rooted out, and reversed?
johniam made a reasonable decision. If I had a wife and children were denigrated and slandered by a leader in the organization, I probably would have left that class too. would you want your kids facing an uphill battle against an unloving woman with a slanderous opinion of them?
When they all arrived home from the advanced class, that leader's wife had a decision to make. to be loving (meaning to accept the full consequences of her sin of slandering johniam and continue to be apologetic for that sin), or to abuse her position of spiritual authority to try and force john to "forgive" and when she couldn't get his verbal acquiescence, to kick him out of the fellowship and say he was no longer welcome.
some people say they are walking in love yet slander other people. some of them do this even while holding responsibility in the Christian church. Their old man ways are so encrusted that they feel their position of authority is more important than their behavior. thus they throw their spiritual weight around to force compliance, otherwise they kick people out. this is false repentance. it is not love. it is spiritual abuse. they are the ones that should be asking for forgiveness for the hardness of their heart, rather than trying to force it out of others.
Well, I certainly see that for you, rather than slandering David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen who wrote "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", that maybe you ought to read it. It could improve your "spiritual sharpness".
No, her sin was slander, followed by covering it up by kicking johniam out. She was joined in that sin by her husband, as well as the leadership in CR&F who knew about this and backed her up. How many that involved, who knows? People aren't entitled to forgiveness from someone they wronged, they earn it. Even if God instructs to forgive grevious sins, it NEVER is the place of a leader to use strong-arm tactics to enforce this.
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chockfull
Well, maybe if the entire organization was familiar with that book and stood against the practice of spiritual abuse, they would be able to detect and eliminate it in their midst. And again, you denigrating and censoring books you have not read is not living the love of God, it is ignorance and slander.
I see something different on this forum. I see a whole bunch of God's children who were very hurt by false leaders in a supposed Christian organization. They are all recovering, trying to love God and one another, heal, and move on.
And sometimes there are judgmental and unloving people who blow thru and call them names, judge them, and accuse them of things. And usually those people excuse the sins of the abusive leadership.
Hmmm. Now which one of these groups do you think represents more of the love of God?
I'm not defending what I'm telling you either. It is the simple honest truth. If you want to move on and build relationships with people in the household of God, then do it. If not, then I guess calling people names and leaving works too. It's not a Christian behavior, but I've come to see that you can't believe everyone's words - you have to see the fruit of their lives.
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modcat5
Welcome to Greasespot, LoveOneAnother. Your right to express your views is welcome here. There will be responses. There will be challenges. But we hope you stick around and enjoy the menu.
Joining any Internet forum involves some growth as you learn the ropes of how this place works and the rest of us learn the ropes of how you work. We hope and trust it will be a constructive experience for everyone.
Enjoy.
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geisha779
So, what do we win if we did know Hendricks up close and personal? Personally, I am just glad we did survive how he personified the "love of God". It was questionable that one would survive if you got on his bad side or money was involved.
How anyone could support a ministry founded on his perception of God, the scriptures, or love, is beyond me. From my vantage point....it is not the people posting here who have a problem.
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