If a recitation of VPW, LCM and RR's good points is not worth your time, as a supporter, to post
Why would you think it was worth anyone else's time to consider???
Templelady
First things first if you would have read my posts you would have seen that I never said I was a supporter of twi. What I did say was I am a supporter of truth (several times). A concept which you apparently have a difficult time with . Thanks for proving my point our posts are not read much less considered in this level playing field. If you had you would have known that.
Second you conveniently left out the rest of my post the part where I gave my reason for not wasting the time. Just following Jesus' lead he never wasted his time on foolish questions either.
I gave you one and one would be enough. Guess you wisely did not have a problem with people being alive. So there is the good you asked for.
Snort *getting bummed* is a mighty nice way to lable the after effects of abuse suffered directly at the twi leaders Allan.....
It IS entirely the fault and shame of the people who utilized the scripture to grant themselves authority and masqueraded as ministers to steal from, and destroy so many.
Further more, I think that the heartlessness commonly demonstrated by the most ardent of twi ministry doctrine supporters is the most damning evidence of all as to the poor spiritual healthiness of what we were taught :(
Love God n love your neighbor? Not frigging likely.
First things first if you would have read my posts you would have seen that I never said I was a supporter of twi. What I did say was I am a supporter of truth (several times).
That's interesting.
To hear every single poster tell it,
THEY are a supporter of truth, too.
And their position is the most sensible, logical position to hold.
And they all contradict each other.
We have supporters of truth who think all religion is a delusion,
who hold that Christianity is false, that all ex-twi Christians hold
the sole truth, that truth is different for each person, yet still true,
and other positions too esoteric to name easily.
When OJ claimed he was "100% unequivocally not guilty",
the judge didn't dismiss the case.
"Well, he says he's not guilty-that's good enough for me."
Proclaiming your position to be the true one is no guarantee
to anyone that it is-including yourself.
My guess is that tl knew that as well as I did and left it alone.
You're an adult-surely you can see this point!
Second you conveniently left out the rest of my post the part where I gave my reason for not wasting the time.
BTW,
I've been treated to one poster spending pages saying they didn't
have time to spend answering questions before.
This isn't going to be another one of those things, is it?
It's beneath you, so I'm hoping you won't do such a thing...
And their position is the most sensible, logical position to hold.
And they all contradict each other.
We have supporters of truth who think all religion is a delusion,
who hold that Christianity is false, that all ex-twi Christians hold
the sole truth, that truth is different for each person, yet still true,
and other positions too esoteric to name easily.
When OJ claimed he was "100% unequivocally not guilty",
the judge didn't dismiss the case.
"Well, he says he's not guilty-that's good enough for me."
Proclaiming your position to be the true one is no guarantee
to anyone that it is-including yourself.
My guess is that tl knew that as well as I did and left it alone.
You're an adult-surely you can see this point!
BTW,
I've been treated to one poster spending pages saying they didn't
have time to spend answering questions before.
This isn't going to be another one of those things, is it?
It's beneath you, so I'm hoping you won't do such a thing...
Yes I understand your point WW some things regarding truth especially in the case of beliefs are relative. And some things are documentable by facts in the case of The Way. Some choose to ignore the facts because it says something other than their agenda of hate ,rape, and pillage. But is still truth it does not go away because you don't want to hear it. Those are the documentable truths I was speaking of. A supporter of truth.
In the case you mentioned OJ neither did the judge attach a label to OJ. that did not represent him. Show me any post where I said I was a twi supporter or apologist. I can show you many where I said I was not so yeah I do have a problem with people telling me who or what I am. I'd guess you would not like people speaking for you either.
And no I gave my answer but since you also mentioned it What I said was it was not worth the time not that I did not have the time. Just don't want to waste it on a pointless discussion.
Just don't want to waste it on a pointless discussion
That sums up most TWI supporters response to anything they don;t have an answer to or perhaps it would be better to say anything they don't have an answer to that will support their position
Excuse me ! I gave you an answer. One is enough you don't seek the truth you seek to have things to pick apart. I guess you admit people living is a good thing HUH? So there is your good!
Is there "piling on" when some people post an unpopular opinion?
Sure
Are those who are vocal in their admiration of some of what was practiced and taught in TWI called names?
Undoubtedly
Do some of those who agree band together against the minority?
You bet
Welcome to life
However....I've seen posters from all sides (not all posters, but all pov's are represented) resort to name-calling, ganging up on dissenters, and over-simplifying the opposing viewpoint.
Not all posters who agree on one thing agree on all issues. For example, rascal and I vehemently disagree on one specific issue, and have gone at it hammer and tongs on an occassion or two, but on other issues we are of one mind.
I agree Oakspear..welcome to life, thats just the way people are, but I tell you, the ones to watch out for are the 'sugary sweet', "I'd like to thank God, my Dad and Mom, uhm..the producers that made this possible and most of all I'd like to thank my supporters at Grease Spot for well uhm..supporting me "
Oak I agree and if some people would see it is that way rather than try to paint a level playing field then I would not have an issue here. As I said just don't try and tell me it does not exist.
Well up untill greasespot and way dale, I suppose that all of the folks who`s lives were ravaged, their reputations savaged and who were ignominiously booted...... of the all of the people who were forced to do abominable things in the name of God .....all of the people who were m&a and declared posessed so that no one would listen.......probably felt that they were in the minority and never given a chance to tell their accounts of abuse :(
Now for the first time WE have a chance to tell our side of the story.... we are being given a turn to speak. I am sorry that makes wierwille/twi/pfal supporters feel uncomfortable...or feel picked on.....or now that people are aware of twi`s nature that many have lost respect for vpw...... but it was and always will be a part of twi`s ugly legacy....
This all reminds me of a joke: Suzie Slut jokes. One in particular. Suzie Slut was out on a date. The guy started to cop a feel on her breasts....but she just LAUGHED...SHE knew her money was in her purse.
In other words...the guy was intent on feeling her, but she foolishly thought he was intent on something else.
And now the devil is intent on "feeling your hearts" (getting you to attack the word) but you just LAUGH....YOU know the real issue is VPWs sins.
Really and how do you know they wouldn't be alive if VPW weren't in the picture? How did he Keep them alive? We are talking personal actions here
What I got was a commercial for PFAL
I got some good things from PFAL
But I don't remember any good coming from Limb, branch, and HQ on a one to one basis in my life --which is what I post about here
So I'm asking fro those of you who did have good from Limb, Branch, and HQ on a one to one basis to come forward--
of course I've been asking that for some time and it always seems to me to end up as a commercial for PFAL Sigh
I suppose Templelady that I would except their stories at face value when they tell you that they were turned around from suicide or drug overdose. I figure they would be the one to know. Of course you expect us to accept your stories of abuse at face value. I'd give them the same benefit. I did post Dean Ellenwoods song his story of a WOW helping him on WW thread . I guess you could ask him about it if you care to.
So why are all your Accounts second or third person??
Do you not have any first person accounts of the good Branch, Limb or HQ leadership did for you on a one to one basis.??
My abuse stories are first person, as are almost all of the other abuse stories, of what ever kind. that have been posted.
Yet when you ask the Weirwillite camp for first person stories of the good said leadership did in their lives on a one to one basis 99% of what you get is a second or third hand account of what happened to someone else--
Why is that???
And the even bigger question is --if you have no first person accounts of what good leadership did in your life Why are you still defending them???
You assume too much TL. I already told you I'm not playing your circle game. If I would have posted my account then you would have asked why I only had mine and no others . As I said I'm not wasting my time I have nothing I need to prove to you. You do not seek the truth.
Pretty presumptuous on your part to decide that you know what is going on in my brain--especially when what you "know" is so far off the mark
Not really your past track record speaks for itself you have picked apart any post that does not mirror your stories of how you perceive life in the way was .
How dare you to Say someone is not seeking to know GOD just because they do not wholeheartedly embrace TWI and PFAL???
Another of your untruthful fabrications I never said anything like that. Then again you still can't seem to get it after I have told you several times this is about truth not PFAL OR TWI.
Not really your past track record speaks for itself you have picked apart any post that does not mirror your stories of how you perceive life in the way was .
You bet, when someone tells me what happened to my family in the TWI either 1) didn't happen or 2) wasn't that bad I have every right to "Pick it apart". That does not translate into not believing that things might have been different for others, a distinction obviously lost on you
Another of your untruthful fabrications I never said anything like that.
you say this another of my untruthful fabrications thereby once more declaring that what I have related happened to me in TWI is not true and
Then again you still can't seem to get it after I have told you several times this is about truth not PFAL OR TWI
I refer to an earlier post of yours
It is well documented here ,geese there have been several threads on where book by book the teaching In PFAL came from. This was not any big revelation to me but to some it is I suppose. If one would choose to hold on to something they learned in PFAL wouldn't it be correct to say they were holding on to BG Leonard or Charles Welch or Kenyon's teaching ,not VP Wierwille. On one thread the work was plagiarized and wasn't his teaching on the other thread we were now to move beyond his teaching(which wasn't his teaching) that we were taught by a false prophet. If VP plagiarized others work then we were taught by them. If we were taught by a false prophet then that would rule out Kenyon Leonard or Welch. Seems it cant work both ways.
Convoluted though this paragraph appears on first glance --the message is clear- VPW taught the truth, if he plagiarized it it's still the truth because the men he plagiarized it from taught the truth--meanwhile we just avoid the whole topic of plagiarism per se
How disingenuous of you to try at this late stage to say that this is not about TWI and PFAL when your whole point for a multitude of posts has been that that is exactly what it is about and how persecuted you are whenever you stick up for the truth you claim is found in TWI
I have no problem admitting several things, 1) not everyone in TWI had a negative experience, 2) Some people actually found good in the experience 3) many People in TWi are seekers of truth. Unlike you who must brand those whose experiences and perceptions are different than yours liars, claim they don't seek after the truth, that their experiences are fabrication, and the most outrageous that you know what others are thinking and what they will do, all the while complaining how these same people ill treat you
Ever heard of the golden rule??? maybe you should try not calling people liars, not declaring they don't seek after truth, and try asking what they think or do first instead of deciding that you know everything--who knows you might actually get positive feedback
As it is the feeling I get after your posts and the the feeling I got after a reproof session with the Limb coordinator are about even
How dare you to Say someone is not seeking to know GOD just because they do not wholeheartedly embrace TWI and PFAL???
Another of your untruthful fabrications I never said anything like that.
That is correct I never made that statement you will not find it in my posts that means it is a fabrication and untrue. Do you have a quote? I didn't think so.
QUOTE
Then again you still can't seem to get it after I have told you several times this is about truth not PFAL OR TWI
I refer to an earlier post of yours
Exactly an earlier post this thread has changed topics a few times since a few pages back we were discussing level playing fields that is to what my comment was addressed to . I never said truth was exclusive to the Way or PFAL.
As it is the feeling I get after your posts and the the feeling I got after a reproof session with the Limb coordinator are about even
Thanks for the compliment it always feels good when we really get honest and renew our minds to the truth. Change and learning is an exciting adventure.
How dare you to Say someone is not seeking to know GOD just because they do not wholeheartedly embrace TWI and PFAL???
Another of your untruthful fabrications I never said anything like that.
That is correct I never made that statement you will not find it in my posts that means it is a fabrication and untrue. Do you have a quote? I didn't think so.
QUOTE
Then again you still can't seem to get it after I have told you several times this is about truth not PFAL OR TWI
I refer to an earlier post of yours
Exactly an earlier post this thread has changed topics a few times since a few pages back we were discussing level playing fields that is to what my comment was addressed to . I never said truth was exclusive to the way or PFAL.
As it is the feeling I get after your posts and the the feeling I got after a reproof session with the Limb coordinator are about even
Thanks for the compliment it always feels good when we really get honest and renew our minds to the truth. Change and learning is an exciting adventure.
Ever heard of the golden rule???
The golden rule is not a biblical concept. Doing unto others is not dependant on what they do or don't do.
Dove, your treatment of temple lady and folks whom don`t share your belief system is a screaming endorsement of why I find the effects of twi doctrine so toxic.
So many of you guys don`t seem to be able to post your pov`s without some kind of unwarrented back handed slap to someone while doing it.
Does sounding brass or tinkling symble ring any bells?
Darned right Oakspear, disagreed vehemently at times, and yet I still retain a great deal of liking and respect for you personally :)
GEEE being misquoted ,and putting words in my mouth that O never said, and oh yes attaching lables like appoligist and Wierwillite to me. Because I don't endorse her belief system has nothing to do with it I suppose!
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justloafing
Arn't you the compassionate one? Are you craig?
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WhiteDove
Templelady
First things first if you would have read my posts you would have seen that I never said I was a supporter of twi. What I did say was I am a supporter of truth (several times). A concept which you apparently have a difficult time with . Thanks for proving my point our posts are not read much less considered in this level playing field. If you had you would have known that.
Second you conveniently left out the rest of my post the part where I gave my reason for not wasting the time. Just following Jesus' lead he never wasted his time on foolish questions either.
I gave you one and one would be enough. Guess you wisely did not have a problem with people being alive. So there is the good you asked for.
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rascal
Snort *getting bummed* is a mighty nice way to lable the after effects of abuse suffered directly at the twi leaders Allan.....
It IS entirely the fault and shame of the people who utilized the scripture to grant themselves authority and masqueraded as ministers to steal from, and destroy so many.
Further more, I think that the heartlessness commonly demonstrated by the most ardent of twi ministry doctrine supporters is the most damning evidence of all as to the poor spiritual healthiness of what we were taught :(
Love God n love your neighbor? Not frigging likely.
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WordWolf
That's interesting.
To hear every single poster tell it,
THEY are a supporter of truth, too.
And their position is the most sensible, logical position to hold.
And they all contradict each other.
We have supporters of truth who think all religion is a delusion,
who hold that Christianity is false, that all ex-twi Christians hold
the sole truth, that truth is different for each person, yet still true,
and other positions too esoteric to name easily.
When OJ claimed he was "100% unequivocally not guilty",
the judge didn't dismiss the case.
"Well, he says he's not guilty-that's good enough for me."
Proclaiming your position to be the true one is no guarantee
to anyone that it is-including yourself.
My guess is that tl knew that as well as I did and left it alone.
You're an adult-surely you can see this point!
BTW,
I've been treated to one poster spending pages saying they didn't
have time to spend answering questions before.
This isn't going to be another one of those things, is it?
It's beneath you, so I'm hoping you won't do such a thing...
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WordWolf
If by "his ministry",
you mean "his deliberate decisions to rape, molest, and drug my sisters in
Christ, and use the office of leader to funnel money and adulation to himself
and feed his lusts for sex, alcohol, tobacco and whatever else I don't know
about",
then I accept your apology.
And no, I don't think "his ministry" is your fault.
I would be mindful, however, that the blessings you received
were at the expense of the curses received by your sisters in
Christ. Me, I would consider that WORTH getting bummed over.
As to it being "anyone else's fault",
it is the fault of the people who willingly and intentionally
participated in and facilitated his evil deeds.
If someone innocently passed along a message
"vpw asked you to come to his office after service",
that's one thing.
On the other hand, some people monitored the women
exiting his "shaque du amour" and made sure they were
not going to file criminal charges. Those people knew in
advance what vpw was going to try to do, did nothing to
stop it or warn the women, and put forth their best effort
to cover his tracks instead.
Now, them, that's THEIR fault as well as his own.
So, I disagree on the last part.
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WhiteDove
Yes I understand your point WW some things regarding truth especially in the case of beliefs are relative. And some things are documentable by facts in the case of The Way. Some choose to ignore the facts because it says something other than their agenda of hate ,rape, and pillage. But is still truth it does not go away because you don't want to hear it. Those are the documentable truths I was speaking of. A supporter of truth.
In the case you mentioned OJ neither did the judge attach a label to OJ. that did not represent him. Show me any post where I said I was a twi supporter or apologist. I can show you many where I said I was not so yeah I do have a problem with people telling me who or what I am. I'd guess you would not like people speaking for you either.
And no I gave my answer but since you also mentioned it What I said was it was not worth the time not that I did not have the time. Just don't want to waste it on a pointless discussion.
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templelady
That sums up most TWI supporters response to anything they don;t have an answer to or perhaps it would be better to say anything they don't have an answer to that will support their position
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WhiteDove
Excuse me ! I gave you an answer. One is enough you don't seek the truth you seek to have things to pick apart. I guess you admit people living is a good thing HUH? So there is your good!
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Oakspear
Is there "piling on" when some people post an unpopular opinion?
Sure
Are those who are vocal in their admiration of some of what was practiced and taught in TWI called names?
Undoubtedly
Do some of those who agree band together against the minority?
You bet
Welcome to life
However....I've seen posters from all sides (not all posters, but all pov's are represented) resort to name-calling, ganging up on dissenters, and over-simplifying the opposing viewpoint.
Not all posters who agree on one thing agree on all issues. For example, rascal and I vehemently disagree on one specific issue, and have gone at it hammer and tongs on an occassion or two, but on other issues we are of one mind.
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allan w.
I agree Oakspear..welcome to life, thats just the way people are, but I tell you, the ones to watch out for are the 'sugary sweet', "I'd like to thank God, my Dad and Mom, uhm..the producers that made this possible and most of all I'd like to thank my supporters at Grease Spot for well uhm..supporting me "
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WhiteDove
Oak I agree and if some people would see it is that way rather than try to paint a level playing field then I would not have an issue here. As I said just don't try and tell me it does not exist.
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templelady
Really and how do you know they wouldn't be alive if VPW weren't in the picture? How did he Keep them alive? We are talking personal actions here
What I got was a commercial for PFAL
I got some good things from PFAL
But I don't remember any good coming from Limb, branch, and HQ on a one to one basis in my life --which is what I post about here
So I'm asking fro those of you who did have good from Limb, Branch, and HQ on a one to one basis to come forward--
of course I've been asking that for some time and it always seems to me to end up as a commercial for PFAL Sigh
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rascal
Well up untill greasespot and way dale, I suppose that all of the folks who`s lives were ravaged, their reputations savaged and who were ignominiously booted...... of the all of the people who were forced to do abominable things in the name of God .....all of the people who were m&a and declared posessed so that no one would listen.......probably felt that they were in the minority and never given a chance to tell their accounts of abuse :(
Now for the first time WE have a chance to tell our side of the story.... we are being given a turn to speak. I am sorry that makes wierwille/twi/pfal supporters feel uncomfortable...or feel picked on.....or now that people are aware of twi`s nature that many have lost respect for vpw...... but it was and always will be a part of twi`s ugly legacy....
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johniam
This all reminds me of a joke: Suzie Slut jokes. One in particular. Suzie Slut was out on a date. The guy started to cop a feel on her breasts....but she just LAUGHED...SHE knew her money was in her purse.
In other words...the guy was intent on feeling her, but she foolishly thought he was intent on something else.
And now the devil is intent on "feeling your hearts" (getting you to attack the word) but you just LAUGH....YOU know the real issue is VPWs sins.
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WhiteDove
I suppose Templelady that I would except their stories at face value when they tell you that they were turned around from suicide or drug overdose. I figure they would be the one to know. Of course you expect us to accept your stories of abuse at face value. I'd give them the same benefit. I did post Dean Ellenwoods song his story of a WOW helping him on WW thread . I guess you could ask him about it if you care to.
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templelady
WD
So why are all your Accounts second or third person??
Do you not have any first person accounts of the good Branch, Limb or HQ leadership did for you on a one to one basis.??
My abuse stories are first person, as are almost all of the other abuse stories, of what ever kind. that have been posted.
Yet when you ask the Weirwillite camp for first person stories of the good said leadership did in their lives on a one to one basis 99% of what you get is a second or third hand account of what happened to someone else--
Why is that???
And the even bigger question is --if you have no first person accounts of what good leadership did in your life Why are you still defending them???
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WhiteDove
You assume too much TL. I already told you I'm not playing your circle game. If I would have posted my account then you would have asked why I only had mine and no others . As I said I'm not wasting my time I have nothing I need to prove to you. You do not seek the truth.
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templelady
And this is the level playing field you keep complaining we don't give you??
A playing field where not only do you not have to answer questions but you also get to decide what we thinking and what we will do.
Pretty presumptuous on your part to decide that you know what is going on in my brain--especially when what you "know" is so far off the mark
You sanctimonious self righteous BIGOT
How DARE you presume that just because someone does not agree with your theological position that they are not seeking after truth??
How dare you to Say someone is not seeking to know GOD just because they do not wholeheartedly embrace TWI and PFAL???
You whine about a level playing field.
You might find the playing field More level if you came off the Ivory pedestal that you stand on looking down at the rest of us with so much disdain
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WhiteDove
Another of your untruthful fabrications I never said anything like that. Then again you still can't seem to get it after I have told you several times this is about truth not PFAL OR TWI.
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templelady
you say this another of my untruthful fabrications thereby once more declaring that what I have related happened to me in TWI is not true and
I refer to an earlier post of yours
It is well documented here ,geese there have been several threads on where book by book the teaching In PFAL came from. This was not any big revelation to me but to some it is I suppose. If one would choose to hold on to something they learned in PFAL wouldn't it be correct to say they were holding on to BG Leonard or Charles Welch or Kenyon's teaching ,not VP Wierwille. On one thread the work was plagiarized and wasn't his teaching on the other thread we were now to move beyond his teaching(which wasn't his teaching) that we were taught by a false prophet. If VP plagiarized others work then we were taught by them. If we were taught by a false prophet then that would rule out Kenyon Leonard or Welch. Seems it cant work both ways.
Convoluted though this paragraph appears on first glance --the message is clear- VPW taught the truth, if he plagiarized it it's still the truth because the men he plagiarized it from taught the truth--meanwhile we just avoid the whole topic of plagiarism per se
How disingenuous of you to try at this late stage to say that this is not about TWI and PFAL when your whole point for a multitude of posts has been that that is exactly what it is about and how persecuted you are whenever you stick up for the truth you claim is found in TWI
I have no problem admitting several things, 1) not everyone in TWI had a negative experience, 2) Some people actually found good in the experience 3) many People in TWi are seekers of truth. Unlike you who must brand those whose experiences and perceptions are different than yours liars, claim they don't seek after the truth, that their experiences are fabrication, and the most outrageous that you know what others are thinking and what they will do, all the while complaining how these same people ill treat you
Ever heard of the golden rule??? maybe you should try not calling people liars, not declaring they don't seek after truth, and try asking what they think or do first instead of deciding that you know everything--who knows you might actually get positive feedback
As it is the feeling I get after your posts and the the feeling I got after a reproof session with the Limb coordinator are about even
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WhiteDove
That is correct I never made that statement you will not find it in my posts that means it is a fabrication and untrue. Do you have a quote? I didn't think so.
QUOTE
Then again you still can't seem to get it after I have told you several times this is about truth not PFAL OR TWI
I refer to an earlier post of yours
Exactly an earlier post this thread has changed topics a few times since a few pages back we were discussing level playing fields that is to what my comment was addressed to . I never said truth was exclusive to the Way or PFAL.
Thanks for the compliment it always feels good when we really get honest and renew our minds to the truth. Change and learning is an exciting adventure.
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WhiteDove
That is correct I never made that statement you will not find it in my posts that means it is a fabrication and untrue. Do you have a quote? I didn't think so.
QUOTE
Then again you still can't seem to get it after I have told you several times this is about truth not PFAL OR TWI
I refer to an earlier post of yours
Exactly an earlier post this thread has changed topics a few times since a few pages back we were discussing level playing fields that is to what my comment was addressed to . I never said truth was exclusive to the way or PFAL.
Thanks for the compliment it always feels good when we really get honest and renew our minds to the truth. Change and learning is an exciting adventure.
The golden rule is not a biblical concept. Doing unto others is not dependant on what they do or don't do.
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rascal
Dove, your treatment of temple lady and folks whom don`t share your belief system is a screaming endorsement of why I find the effects of twi doctrine so toxic.
So many of you guys don`t seem to be able to post your pov`s without some kind of unwarrented back handed slap to someone while doing it.
Does sounding brass or tinkling symble ring any bells?
Darned right Oakspear, disagreed vehemently at times, and yet I still retain a great deal of liking and respect for you personally :)
The key is civility and respect.
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WhiteDove
GEEE being misquoted ,and putting words in my mouth that O never said, and oh yes attaching lables like appoligist and Wierwillite to me. Because I don't endorse her belief system has nothing to do with it I suppose!
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