Thats what YOU said dove....geeze you complain because folks don`t agree with you..that folks with a different pov are somehow accepted...what IS that???
Good grief, what is it you want? You want us all to pat you on the back? Does everybody need to change their pov to suit dove so he feels a little better?
I am deeply offended and probably always will be, at the betrayal of wierwille and his leaders visited upon us all....that isn`t likely to change.
No agenda, but apparently as folks learn the truth about what went on behind closed doors, many feel the same ....some don`t.....for heavens sake, that ISN`T an agenda OR a clique....
As ex way we are both permitted to post our pov`s ... the information is out there for everyone to draw their own conclusions either way.....How much more fair can it be then that? We can still like and respect one another irregardless....EACH poster here has an important piece of the puzzle, has valuable and apreciated input, and I personally sincerily apreciate their presence......HOWEVER, when people cannot address their comments to the ideas posted and instead have to turn things into personal attacks....THAT is when you lose/have lost credibility with me...or any respect I may have ever had for their character or pov...but hey, that is just me.....and who cares what *I* think.....
I don`t care if you agree with me, dove nor what the rest of greasespot thinks.......these are MY thoughts...MY emotions...MY pov that were unimportant for 20 years...and FINALLY I get a chance to voice them. I don`t need to be liked or accepted...I need to be allowed to finally have a voice.....THAT is the beauty of greasespot imo......there isn`t an agenda, and you guys insult this place by your accusations of favoritism.
Again, all it will take to get better results..IF you care ... is to post your opinions (whichever side of the argument that you support) graciously and kindly.
I don't mind agendas either. Some see things one way and some see them another. I for sure don't see cliques here either. I think that is a very unfair tag. There are some here like me that agree that there is nothing good about twi but yet we disagree at times and state it on these forums. There are other forums and a chat room here that IMO you can really get to know someone and do not have to deal with twi things at all. I was in chat last night and the hour or two that I was in there I don't think there was hardly anything said about twi just talking about our lives and joking around.
quote: They made to many people pay the "high price" for their(twi) own pleasure.
So just what is this "high price"? Time? Youth? ABS money? All of the above?
I was thinking of starting a thread called "What makes Wierwille haters the angriest?" but it's not that deep a subject. It's the illusion that all TWI did was make fools out of everybody. That everybody who spent years in TWI were scammed and all the world can see their foolishness and no amount of compensation will change that. That's bondage! Glad it's you and not me. This illusion drives people here to not only beat themselves up but to treat others unkind as well. Welcome to hell.
I agree with Whitedove that there's at least as much pressure to think with the group mentality here on GSC as there ever has been in TWI.
The price paid? Well if loss of youth, youth, finances, education isn`t enough...... How about for some, all dignity, any respect, unborn children....assault of character
These are pretty heavy prices paid ...and then to find out that those who required this due....were not behaving in loving/ spiritual/Godly manner themselves.....yeah it *%^#*es some of us off, it doesn`t bother other people at all ...so what?? We are all exway, we all have equal voice....if your pov isn`t a popular one....there is a valid reason.....examine your pov, your style of deliverance, rather than blame greasespot and everyone else for not caring to share it
The ONLY pressure here is that which you personally place upon yourself.
I don`t understand you being threatened by my experiences or my pov...it is mine and mine alone...whether you or anyone else agrees with me.
What is it you expect? Are we supposed to not say what we think? Voice our unpleasant experiences? Reveal the betrayal by people we trusted to represent God`s pov? Will people get an accurate picture of twi WITHOUT these petty little details?
quote: They made to many people pay the "high price" for their(twi) own pleasure.
So just what is this "high price"? Time? Youth? ABS money? All of the above?
Heck yes a wasted youth and some a lot more than their youthful years.ABS You Betcha. While you lived like a popper they spent your money on anything they wanted. Needs and wants parallel. Remember that teaching? They did not live it one iota.
So I guess because some things have not come out in court you believe it did not happen. Let me ask you John. Have you spent time on other ares of GSC besides the forums? Is it (GSC) all a bunch of lies? Or maybe just maybe some of it is true. ie. Rapes that happened in the Name of God, suicides IMHO happened because of TWI. Along wrong translation of the bible Nope just to much info to discount it all. To tell you the truth I discount very little of it. If a tenth happened what is said on this board did happen. TWI is cruel and of the devil, JMHO.
To add to the above...........................I guess I believe a lot of what is written here at GSC and I guess it is just my nature to not want it to happen to anyone else. If I can help anyone along the way I sure hope to be able to do that too.
I was thinking of starting a thread called "What makes Wierwille haters the angriest?" but it's not that deep a subject. It's the illusion that all TWI did was make fools out of everybody. That everybody who spent years in TWI were scammed and all the world can see their foolishness and no amount of compensation will change that. That's bondage! Glad it's you and not me. This illusion drives people here to not only beat themselves up but to treat others unkind as well. Welcome to hell
.
What makes anti-Wierwillites the angriest???
TO have our experiences --What happened to us, whether it be destroyed marriages, sexual abuse, loss of family, loss of a chance at a higher education--the reasons are as varied as the people here
Be ignored
TO have our valid arguments against the behavior of the WAY as exemplified by its leadership - reduced to an argument about the validity of VPW teachings, or worse yet to be described as "foolishness" or "illusion" or "lies"
Those who would do such don't get the big picture--
THESE PEOPLE WERE OUR SPRITUAL LEADERS Spiritual leaders are there, to expound the truths of the gospel, comfort, to support, to advise, to love, to gently guide, and correct. Not only did they betray us with their lies, deceptions and evil acts THEY BETRAYED THEIR CALLING OF TEACHER. They, through their acts, not only shattered personal lives THEY shattered spiritual lives.
I think of the posters here, who no longer believe in God at all, who no longer attend any church, or in a spiritual morass. This is the great sin of TWI that by doing evil they destroyed the relationships of followers to God
I was reading some information on Gnosticism - and saw some similarities with TWI. The following is from "The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible", Merrill C. Tenney, General Editor on Gnosticism: It is "a term derived from Greek 'gnosis', knowledge, and variously applied to movements within, or in relation to, early Christianity…There are, however, certain common features, among them a dominating concern with knowledge…
…Anyone who reads through the books of Irenaeus or Hippolytus against heresies will be struck by the wide variety of these movements. There are Gnostic systems which make testing intellectual demands, others which depend on mumbo-jumbo and sleight of hand. There are Gnostic leaders who are…high-minded ascetics, and others who are licentious charlatans. Nevertheless, they all offer knowledge – and in a form or degree not to be found outside their own teaching…
…Evil is associated with matter, ignorance, formlessness, distortion. Consequently salvation is to slough off defilement rather than to receive forgiveness for offenses. Salvation comes as illumination dispelling ignorance, triumphing over the material…
…Some schools divided mankind into three according to the predominant element in their constitution – the material [who were unsalvageable], the 'psychic' who could receive some purification, and the spiritual, the elite capable of receiving the deep mysteries. Naturally the third class were the Gnostics, the mass of Christians forming the second class. The church becomes the club of the illuminated not the society of the redeemed…
…The view that the material is the seat of evil, leads to asceticism, celibacy and vegetarianism in some systems, and paradoxically to license in others, where 'liberation' from matter meant its effects were inconsequential."
From "The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia," Geoffrey W. Bromiley, General Editor on Gnosticism:
"The intellectual pride of the Gnostics changed the gospel into a philosophy…The Gnostics claimed to be the elite, the wise, the philosophers, to whom was revealed a secret knowledge which the overwhelming mass of mankind could never know…
…The following may be regarded as the chief points in the Gnostic systems… a claim on the part of the initiated to a special knowledge of the truth; a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and as the special possession of the more enlightened, for ordinary Christians did not possess this secret and higher doctrine. The essential separation of matter and spirit, matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen…the teaching, on the one hand, of asceticism as the means of attaining spiritual communion with God, and on the other hand, of an indifference that led directly to licentiousness."
Concerning sin Christian doctrine described it as an evil which "is the refusal of the creature to lean absolutely and utterly upon God, on His care and love and upholding grace. Sin is defiance of God; it is moral transgression; its magnitude cannot be exaggerated – it would dethrone God if it could…But in Gnosticism sin is something quite different; it is only a physical fact or quality inherent in the body and in matter everywhere. Redemption, therefore, does not consist in the work of Jesus Christ for us on the cross, and the applying of the benefits of that work by the Holy Spirit in the renewal of human moral nature. Redemption is simply each person's efforts to secure emancipation from the flesh – from physical evil."
That's what YOU said dove....geese you complain because folks don't agree with you. that folks with a different pov are somehow accepted...what IS that???
No Rascal it is not what I said it is what others have said. I've tried to post it several ways and you still insist on making it about me. It is not, I've said several times I don't care one way or the other really. It is NOT a complaint it is a response to something you posted which is untrue. there is a difference. As I said I expect agendas that is life. People have them heck I have one too -to see the truth spoken. I've said it before if you really want to reach people with your message one must be creditable. or at least perceived as such. That means acknowledging what was good and bad true or untrue. Attaching first grade names to people like cornfield Vic and Der Way may get you a few laughs among your peers here . But it screams to others that this person has an ax to grind which means what they say may or may not be truthful. That does not advance your case any toward belief of your story.
Good grief, what is it you want? You want us all to pat you on the back? Does everybody need to change their pov to suit dove so he feels a little better?
Not at all again you wrongly make it about me. I posted three quotes by people who you yourself mentioned as being respectful and gracious in their posting. Certainly not by any stretch Wierwille sympathizers. Their posts showed that despite their manner they felt resistance to continue posting because of bias, agendas. Because they were in a minority point of view. I asked and by the way you declined to answer how if it was just us who you classify as Wierwilleites had this perception then why they would post such things. Apparently they also know that the playing field is not so level as you think.
Then justloafing said yes he had an agenda an honest admission - Mine is to slam twi for all it is worth. Do you think that is a level playing field? Hardly! you can be as kind as you want but any pro way or even perceived as so points will be immediately met with distain. If you have a bunch of people with this agenda then you have no chance of having your point heard honestly because Oh it is something good being said Gee can't have that it must be all rape and pillage. And the gang bang starts. The same holds true for other subjects as well as exhibited by the quotes. A pro Catholic post is often met with the same resistance .
I am deeply offended and probably always will be, at the betrayal of wierwille and his leaders visited upon us all....that isn`t likely to change.
No agenda, but apparently as folks learn the truth about what went on behind closed doors, many feel the same ....some don`t.....for heavens sake, that ISN`T an agenda OR a clique....
Exactly and that is what keeps you despite others words from being able to see that it is not as it seems to you. Either you see it and don't wish to acknowledge it or your desire to be offended keeps you from honestly looking.
As ex way we are both permitted to post our pov`s ... the information is out there for everyone to draw their own conclusions either way.....How much more fair can it be then that? We can still like and respect one another irregardless....EACH poster here has an important piece of the puzzle, has valuable and appreciated input, and I personally sincerely appreciate their presence......HOWEVER, when people cannot address their comments to the ideas posted and instead have to turn things into personal attacks....THAT is when you lose/have lost credibility with me...or any respect I may have ever had for their character or pov...but hey, that is just me.....and who cares what *I* think.....
It is never fair or level when one competes against greater numbers. Would it be fair for you to compete against 50 others in karate at once in a fight. One could say gee it was fair you got to fight just like everyone else . Never mind that it was you against 50 others beating on you at the same time. Hardly level.
I don't care if you agree with me, dove nor what the rest of greasespot thinks.......these are MY thoughts...MY emotions...MY pov that were unimportant for 20 years...and FINALLY I get a chance to voice them. I don't need to be liked or accepted...I need to be allowed to finally have a voice.....THAT is the beauty of greasespot imo......there isn't an agenda, and you guys insult this place by your accusations of favoritism.
Again, all it will take to get better results. IF you care ... is to post your opinions (whichever side of the argument that you support) graciously and kindly.
Not true you are dealing with people that have agendas that's like saying a Democrat has a fair chance of being heard at a Republican rally or vise versa. This is an exway site, but it is more than that it is a exway site where a good percentage of people have an ax to grind with the way. It is that way because they have congregated here. That means by logic you have more resistance in being accepted and heard than you have support. You can post however nice you want about how nice you think a Catholic church is if 80% of the board are victims of abuse you have not got a prayer of being heard.
Yes in the sense that everyone may speak it is an even field but that you will be heard unless you are on the PC side is next to nill.
Again this is an observation only not a complaint. I expect it to be that way , just don't tell me it is a level playing field.
But this ISN`T a fight here.... it isn`t 50 against 1.
It is 51 people posting their opposing view points. Why is it that you think it is a fight? If your view point isn`t in the majority so what? It is STILL your view point.
Everyone here has examined the same information brought to the table and come up with their own opinions and conclusions...
What the mojority view point is depends on who is posting when....it is ever changing.
Again, there are people in the minority who post with respect and address the issues and thoughts WITHOUT resorting to personal attacks ....those people are treated with respect and their posts considered.
It isn`t about your pov, but how you treat others here....no name tags ..no pc...no cliques and no agendas....
What you accuse greasespot and the posters of is false, and missing the great good to be found here and in each other.
There are people on here with different agendas. Mine is to slam twi for all it is worth. I see nothing good about it. Never will. They made to many people pay the "high price" for their(twi) own pleasure. Nope absolutly nothing at all good about that cornfield cult not even a single word that came out of their mouths.
Lets look at the whole quote about "my" agenda. It is not to slam people here. It is to express myself and my feelings about what I call the facts about twi. I think I have read just about everything that GSC has to offer about the things that went on in the way and I am positive I did WayDale. I truley hurt to see what has happened to people that were there and I try to keep people from going in. I may act like a pric k here in this part of GSC but in truth I am easy going and love to laugh. To me this part of the forum is very serious and I treat it as such. My agenda is about twi not the posters of GSC.
As far as level playing field. It is as flat as the Pan Handle of Texas. It is just the axe some people feel they have to grind because they feel out numbered. Heck I can get frustrated too at some posters too. The "Why is everbody picking on me" does not work. Dove even though I don't agree with what you post sometimes. If I saw anyone being mean to you for no reason I would be the first to jump up and help (even though you probably don't need help). This is not a 50 against one fight. It is more people thinking one way than some others and sometimes tempers flair. This thing is going to get moved to the Soap Opera. Maybe we can get back on target and bring down twi :)
Don’t try and twist my words Rascal because you don't want to answer the question you have no answer for.
I never said it was a fight neither is karate is not a real fight either no one is looking to kill one another. It was a question not a declaration hense the words Would you ? I was attempting to show you how the odds are in this level playing field of yours.
It is 51 people posting their opposing view points
Wrong! it is more like 49 people expressing their view on why what you posted is not acceptable with their view of the way. Of course it does not seem that way to you because you are always in the majority.
What the majority view point is depends on who is posting when....it is ever changing.
Wrong again that’s the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. Tell me when does the majority view point ever change regarding the Way, When hell freezes over......
People post here because they want to interact not spend the day responding to the 50 to 1 odds of people picking apart their view word by word based on unrelenting unresolved anger. Not because the view is untruthful but because it does not fit with the PC agenda. Of course Rascal you will see the playing field as flat because you would not have to see the numbers stacked against you day by day because you will always fit the majority profile- at least until hell freezes over.
Yeah your right Rascal everything is Fine ,Hunky Dory Flat as a F@*$!@# pancake. Gee I guessed I missed it. It's all so clear to me now...... Ok you get your wish..... NOW It Is About Me......
Sorry Dove, I thought that you said it was like me in a karate fight against 50 other people....unfair.
Oh well, I guess that we will have to agree yet again, to disagree.....I am still thankfull that we are both able to post here. irregardless of our perspectives.
It's not worth the time it would take to post it Templelady. And what is the point so it can be picked apart. No thanks got better things to do like email the people who were driven away by the flat playing field here.
I will tell you one thing. I know several people who are alive and breathing as a result of there being a ministry started by VPW and hearing the scriptures who would not be otherwise. They heard the words of the Bible from him when others could not reach them. They lead happy productive lives today because they learned things like - that it was Christ in them, that God loved them despite their failure in life at that point, about God's great Grace and a zillion other things because they finally heard it from someone that they could relate to. Today their kids can look up and see a father or a mother and we have a new generation of those who hold truth to help reach others. For the parents of kids ready to end their life, or the man with the gun to his head disillusioned with the world ,to the young people going off to fight for our country today. I'd say I bet they are thankful that someone was there to reach them so that they could see this day standing on top of the earth rather than under it........
So now its everybody ELSES fault that people don`t have the conviction or courage to remain and present their pov? I suppose if they HAD stayed ...that THEY then would have been in the majority eh?
I am at a loss to understand why twi supporters feel so persecuted and seem to have such a problem with the open discussion of ideas and expression of personal points of view :(
It's not twi supporters it's supporters of the truth being spoken and it's real simple Rascal I'll spell it out for you- they don't like being harassed ,called into question at every word ,beaten up, belittled, constantly under pressure to explain why they dare post such a thing, and generally abused because they see good and bad as opposed to only bad. gee I don't know I'd like that day after day......
Now me I am at a loss to understand why people in the Way didn't have the conviction or courage to present their pov either. Guess it works both ways HUH
There ARE twi supporters that ARE able to respectfully disagree and have earned respect for their pov....Johnny Lingo comes to mind...as does Raf, and dmiller in their address of controversial doctrinal issues.
Geeze, Look at how gracious ex 10 is in her presentations and disagreements.....these people have earned my respect, even when I didn`t agree with their pov per say.
Thanks for the compliment, Rascal. :)
May I say, that one thing I have learned in life (for a guaron-dammmnd-Teed fact) is :
I'm not always as *right* as I think I am. :blink:
With that being said, I have found it MUCH BETTER IN LIFE:
To sit at the foot of the table, and be invited forward,
rather than sit at the top, and be *demoted*.
In all categories of life, not just GSC.
Thanks for inviting me forward. :)
I've a long way to go to achieve my goal of meekness and humbleness,
but I figured sitting at the foot of the table, was a good place to start. ;)
(Oh --- and a PS here -------------------- )
I'm NOT a twi supporter by any stretch of the imagination.
Although I believe some of what they taught,
it's some of the teachings I support (endorse), not the org.
I'm NOT a twi supporter by any stretch of the imagination.
Although I believe some of what they taught,
it's some of the teachings I support (endorse), not the org.
Exactly David one would think most people would get that, AND YET YOU ARE LABELED A TWI SUPPORTER IN THIS FAIR PLAYING FIELD. PERHAPS WHEN YOU POST A LITTLE KINDER YOU WILL EARN YOUR WAY OUT OF THAT PIGEON HOLE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN FILED IN, NICE BUT A WAY SUPPORTER.
Lol Dave, I invite you to sit at my table ANY day :)
I didn`t mean to imply you were or weren`t a twi supporter...my reference to you was in the context of doctrinal issues and debates....That you are a gentleman and kind irregardless which side of the issue you debate.
Dove, I guess we had better just agree to disagree and let it rest, as I don`t think anything I say would help you see my pov or me any differently than you do.
I am sorry, for I bear neither you nor anyone else here any ill will.
Lol Dave, I invite you to sit at my table ANY day :)
I didn`t mean to imply you were or weren`t a twi supporter...my reference to you was in the context of doctrinal issues and debates....That you are a gentleman and kind irregardless which side of the issue you debate.
Aw shucks! ---(Looking for a gif that kicks dirt clods here). :D
Hey -- if'n yer table has Sudo's *better than sex stew*, I'll be there!
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rascal
Thats what YOU said dove....geeze you complain because folks don`t agree with you..that folks with a different pov are somehow accepted...what IS that???
Good grief, what is it you want? You want us all to pat you on the back? Does everybody need to change their pov to suit dove so he feels a little better?
I am deeply offended and probably always will be, at the betrayal of wierwille and his leaders visited upon us all....that isn`t likely to change.
No agenda, but apparently as folks learn the truth about what went on behind closed doors, many feel the same ....some don`t.....for heavens sake, that ISN`T an agenda OR a clique....
As ex way we are both permitted to post our pov`s ... the information is out there for everyone to draw their own conclusions either way.....How much more fair can it be then that? We can still like and respect one another irregardless....EACH poster here has an important piece of the puzzle, has valuable and apreciated input, and I personally sincerily apreciate their presence......HOWEVER, when people cannot address their comments to the ideas posted and instead have to turn things into personal attacks....THAT is when you lose/have lost credibility with me...or any respect I may have ever had for their character or pov...but hey, that is just me.....and who cares what *I* think.....
I don`t care if you agree with me, dove nor what the rest of greasespot thinks.......these are MY thoughts...MY emotions...MY pov that were unimportant for 20 years...and FINALLY I get a chance to voice them. I don`t need to be liked or accepted...I need to be allowed to finally have a voice.....THAT is the beauty of greasespot imo......there isn`t an agenda, and you guys insult this place by your accusations of favoritism.
Again, all it will take to get better results..IF you care ... is to post your opinions (whichever side of the argument that you support) graciously and kindly.
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justloafing
I don't mind agendas either. Some see things one way and some see them another. I for sure don't see cliques here either. I think that is a very unfair tag. There are some here like me that agree that there is nothing good about twi but yet we disagree at times and state it on these forums. There are other forums and a chat room here that IMO you can really get to know someone and do not have to deal with twi things at all. I was in chat last night and the hour or two that I was in there I don't think there was hardly anything said about twi just talking about our lives and joking around.
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johniam
quote: They made to many people pay the "high price" for their(twi) own pleasure.
So just what is this "high price"? Time? Youth? ABS money? All of the above?
I was thinking of starting a thread called "What makes Wierwille haters the angriest?" but it's not that deep a subject. It's the illusion that all TWI did was make fools out of everybody. That everybody who spent years in TWI were scammed and all the world can see their foolishness and no amount of compensation will change that. That's bondage! Glad it's you and not me. This illusion drives people here to not only beat themselves up but to treat others unkind as well. Welcome to hell.
I agree with Whitedove that there's at least as much pressure to think with the group mentality here on GSC as there ever has been in TWI.
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rascal
The price paid? Well if loss of youth, youth, finances, education isn`t enough...... How about for some, all dignity, any respect, unborn children....assault of character
These are pretty heavy prices paid ...and then to find out that those who required this due....were not behaving in loving/ spiritual/Godly manner themselves.....yeah it *%^#*es some of us off, it doesn`t bother other people at all ...so what?? We are all exway, we all have equal voice....if your pov isn`t a popular one....there is a valid reason.....examine your pov, your style of deliverance, rather than blame greasespot and everyone else for not caring to share it
The ONLY pressure here is that which you personally place upon yourself.
I don`t understand you being threatened by my experiences or my pov...it is mine and mine alone...whether you or anyone else agrees with me.
What is it you expect? Are we supposed to not say what we think? Voice our unpleasant experiences? Reveal the betrayal by people we trusted to represent God`s pov? Will people get an accurate picture of twi WITHOUT these petty little details?
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justloafing
Heck yes a wasted youth and some a lot more than their youthful years.ABS You Betcha. While you lived like a popper they spent your money on anything they wanted. Needs and wants parallel. Remember that teaching? They did not live it one iota.
So I guess because some things have not come out in court you believe it did not happen. Let me ask you John. Have you spent time on other ares of GSC besides the forums? Is it (GSC) all a bunch of lies? Or maybe just maybe some of it is true. ie. Rapes that happened in the Name of God, suicides IMHO happened because of TWI. Along wrong translation of the bible Nope just to much info to discount it all. To tell you the truth I discount very little of it. If a tenth happened what is said on this board did happen. TWI is cruel and of the devil, JMHO.
To add to the above...........................I guess I believe a lot of what is written here at GSC and I guess it is just my nature to not want it to happen to anyone else. If I can help anyone along the way I sure hope to be able to do that too.
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templelady
What makes anti-Wierwillites the angriest???
TO have our experiences --What happened to us, whether it be destroyed marriages, sexual abuse, loss of family, loss of a chance at a higher education--the reasons are as varied as the people here
Be ignored
TO have our valid arguments against the behavior of the WAY as exemplified by its leadership - reduced to an argument about the validity of VPW teachings, or worse yet to be described as "foolishness" or "illusion" or "lies"
Those who would do such don't get the big picture--
THESE PEOPLE WERE OUR SPRITUAL LEADERS Spiritual leaders are there, to expound the truths of the gospel, comfort, to support, to advise, to love, to gently guide, and correct. Not only did they betray us with their lies, deceptions and evil acts THEY BETRAYED THEIR CALLING OF TEACHER. They, through their acts, not only shattered personal lives THEY shattered spiritual lives.
I think of the posters here, who no longer believe in God at all, who no longer attend any church, or in a spiritual morass. This is the great sin of TWI that by doing evil they destroyed the relationships of followers to God
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T-Bone
I was reading some information on Gnosticism - and saw some similarities with TWI. The following is from "The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible", Merrill C. Tenney, General Editor on Gnosticism: It is "a term derived from Greek 'gnosis', knowledge, and variously applied to movements within, or in relation to, early Christianity…There are, however, certain common features, among them a dominating concern with knowledge…
…Anyone who reads through the books of Irenaeus or Hippolytus against heresies will be struck by the wide variety of these movements. There are Gnostic systems which make testing intellectual demands, others which depend on mumbo-jumbo and sleight of hand. There are Gnostic leaders who are…high-minded ascetics, and others who are licentious charlatans. Nevertheless, they all offer knowledge – and in a form or degree not to be found outside their own teaching…
…Evil is associated with matter, ignorance, formlessness, distortion. Consequently salvation is to slough off defilement rather than to receive forgiveness for offenses. Salvation comes as illumination dispelling ignorance, triumphing over the material…
…Some schools divided mankind into three according to the predominant element in their constitution – the material [who were unsalvageable], the 'psychic' who could receive some purification, and the spiritual, the elite capable of receiving the deep mysteries. Naturally the third class were the Gnostics, the mass of Christians forming the second class. The church becomes the club of the illuminated not the society of the redeemed…
…The view that the material is the seat of evil, leads to asceticism, celibacy and vegetarianism in some systems, and paradoxically to license in others, where 'liberation' from matter meant its effects were inconsequential."
From "The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia," Geoffrey W. Bromiley, General Editor on Gnosticism:
"The intellectual pride of the Gnostics changed the gospel into a philosophy…The Gnostics claimed to be the elite, the wise, the philosophers, to whom was revealed a secret knowledge which the overwhelming mass of mankind could never know…
…The following may be regarded as the chief points in the Gnostic systems… a claim on the part of the initiated to a special knowledge of the truth; a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and as the special possession of the more enlightened, for ordinary Christians did not possess this secret and higher doctrine. The essential separation of matter and spirit, matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen…the teaching, on the one hand, of asceticism as the means of attaining spiritual communion with God, and on the other hand, of an indifference that led directly to licentiousness."
Concerning sin Christian doctrine described it as an evil which "is the refusal of the creature to lean absolutely and utterly upon God, on His care and love and upholding grace. Sin is defiance of God; it is moral transgression; its magnitude cannot be exaggerated – it would dethrone God if it could…But in Gnosticism sin is something quite different; it is only a physical fact or quality inherent in the body and in matter everywhere. Redemption, therefore, does not consist in the work of Jesus Christ for us on the cross, and the applying of the benefits of that work by the Holy Spirit in the renewal of human moral nature. Redemption is simply each person's efforts to secure emancipation from the flesh – from physical evil."
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WhiteDove
Not at all again you wrongly make it about me. I posted three quotes by people who you yourself mentioned as being respectful and gracious in their posting. Certainly not by any stretch Wierwille sympathizers. Their posts showed that despite their manner they felt resistance to continue posting because of bias, agendas. Because they were in a minority point of view. I asked and by the way you declined to answer how if it was just us who you classify as Wierwilleites had this perception then why they would post such things. Apparently they also know that the playing field is not so level as you think.
Then justloafing said yes he had an agenda an honest admission - Mine is to slam twi for all it is worth. Do you think that is a level playing field? Hardly! you can be as kind as you want but any pro way or even perceived as so points will be immediately met with distain. If you have a bunch of people with this agenda then you have no chance of having your point heard honestly because Oh it is something good being said Gee can't have that it must be all rape and pillage. And the gang bang starts. The same holds true for other subjects as well as exhibited by the quotes. A pro Catholic post is often met with the same resistance .
Exactly and that is what keeps you despite others words from being able to see that it is not as it seems to you. Either you see it and don't wish to acknowledge it or your desire to be offended keeps you from honestly looking.It is never fair or level when one competes against greater numbers. Would it be fair for you to compete against 50 others in karate at once in a fight. One could say gee it was fair you got to fight just like everyone else . Never mind that it was you against 50 others beating on you at the same time. Hardly level.
Not true you are dealing with people that have agendas that's like saying a Democrat has a fair chance of being heard at a Republican rally or vise versa. This is an exway site, but it is more than that it is a exway site where a good percentage of people have an ax to grind with the way. It is that way because they have congregated here. That means by logic you have more resistance in being accepted and heard than you have support. You can post however nice you want about how nice you think a Catholic church is if 80% of the board are victims of abuse you have not got a prayer of being heard.
Yes in the sense that everyone may speak it is an even field but that you will be heard unless you are on the PC side is next to nill.
Again this is an observation only not a complaint. I expect it to be that way , just don't tell me it is a level playing field.
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rascal
But this ISN`T a fight here.... it isn`t 50 against 1.
It is 51 people posting their opposing view points. Why is it that you think it is a fight? If your view point isn`t in the majority so what? It is STILL your view point.
Everyone here has examined the same information brought to the table and come up with their own opinions and conclusions...
What the mojority view point is depends on who is posting when....it is ever changing.
Again, there are people in the minority who post with respect and address the issues and thoughts WITHOUT resorting to personal attacks ....those people are treated with respect and their posts considered.
It isn`t about your pov, but how you treat others here....no name tags ..no pc...no cliques and no agendas....
What you accuse greasespot and the posters of is false, and missing the great good to be found here and in each other.
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justloafing
Lets look at the whole quote about "my" agenda. It is not to slam people here. It is to express myself and my feelings about what I call the facts about twi. I think I have read just about everything that GSC has to offer about the things that went on in the way and I am positive I did WayDale. I truley hurt to see what has happened to people that were there and I try to keep people from going in. I may act like a pric k here in this part of GSC but in truth I am easy going and love to laugh. To me this part of the forum is very serious and I treat it as such. My agenda is about twi not the posters of GSC.
As far as level playing field. It is as flat as the Pan Handle of Texas. It is just the axe some people feel they have to grind because they feel out numbered. Heck I can get frustrated too at some posters too. The "Why is everbody picking on me" does not work. Dove even though I don't agree with what you post sometimes. If I saw anyone being mean to you for no reason I would be the first to jump up and help (even though you probably don't need help). This is not a 50 against one fight. It is more people thinking one way than some others and sometimes tempers flair. This thing is going to get moved to the Soap Opera. Maybe we can get back on target and bring down twi :)
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templelady
OK please tell me about the good VPW did
Or LCM
Tell me about their acts that were good
I'm listening, I really am
SO tell me what acts did VPW LCM or the BOT do that were "Good" that brought "Good" to TWI as agroup or to a follower.
Tell me what you saw or witnessed that they did
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WhiteDove
Don’t try and twist my words Rascal because you don't want to answer the question you have no answer for.
I never said it was a fight neither is karate is not a real fight either no one is looking to kill one another. It was a question not a declaration hense the words Would you ? I was attempting to show you how the odds are in this level playing field of yours.
Wrong! it is more like 49 people expressing their view on why what you posted is not acceptable with their view of the way. Of course it does not seem that way to you because you are always in the majority.Wrong again that’s the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. Tell me when does the majority view point ever change regarding the Way, When hell freezes over......
People post here because they want to interact not spend the day responding to the 50 to 1 odds of people picking apart their view word by word based on unrelenting unresolved anger. Not because the view is untruthful but because it does not fit with the PC agenda. Of course Rascal you will see the playing field as flat because you would not have to see the numbers stacked against you day by day because you will always fit the majority profile- at least until hell freezes over.
Yeah your right Rascal everything is Fine ,Hunky Dory Flat as a F@*$!@# pancake. Gee I guessed I missed it. It's all so clear to me now...... Ok you get your wish..... NOW It Is About Me......
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rascal
Sorry Dove, I thought that you said it was like me in a karate fight against 50 other people....unfair.
Oh well, I guess that we will have to agree yet again, to disagree.....I am still thankfull that we are both able to post here. irregardless of our perspectives.
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WhiteDove
It's not worth the time it would take to post it Templelady. And what is the point so it can be picked apart. No thanks got better things to do like email the people who were driven away by the flat playing field here.
I will tell you one thing. I know several people who are alive and breathing as a result of there being a ministry started by VPW and hearing the scriptures who would not be otherwise. They heard the words of the Bible from him when others could not reach them. They lead happy productive lives today because they learned things like - that it was Christ in them, that God loved them despite their failure in life at that point, about God's great Grace and a zillion other things because they finally heard it from someone that they could relate to. Today their kids can look up and see a father or a mother and we have a new generation of those who hold truth to help reach others. For the parents of kids ready to end their life, or the man with the gun to his head disillusioned with the world ,to the young people going off to fight for our country today. I'd say I bet they are thankful that someone was there to reach them so that they could see this day standing on top of the earth rather than under it........
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rascal
So now its everybody ELSES fault that people don`t have the conviction or courage to remain and present their pov? I suppose if they HAD stayed ...that THEY then would have been in the majority eh?
I am at a loss to understand why twi supporters feel so persecuted and seem to have such a problem with the open discussion of ideas and expression of personal points of view :(
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WhiteDove
It's not twi supporters it's supporters of the truth being spoken and it's real simple Rascal I'll spell it out for you- they don't like being harassed ,called into question at every word ,beaten up, belittled, constantly under pressure to explain why they dare post such a thing, and generally abused because they see good and bad as opposed to only bad. gee I don't know I'd like that day after day......
Now me I am at a loss to understand why people in the Way didn't have the conviction or courage to present their pov either. Guess it works both ways HUH
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dmiller
(Well --- meebe not!)
Thanks for the compliment, Rascal. :)
May I say, that one thing I have learned in life (for a guaron-dammmnd-Teed fact) is :
I'm not always as *right* as I think I am. :blink:
With that being said, I have found it MUCH BETTER IN LIFE:
To sit at the foot of the table, and be invited forward,
rather than sit at the top, and be *demoted*.
In all categories of life, not just GSC.
Thanks for inviting me forward. :)
I've a long way to go to achieve my goal of meekness and humbleness,
but I figured sitting at the foot of the table, was a good place to start. ;)
(Oh --- and a PS here -------------------- )
I'm NOT a twi supporter by any stretch of the imagination.
Although I believe some of what they taught,
it's some of the teachings I support (endorse), not the org.
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WhiteDove
Oh --- and a PS here -------------------- )
I'm NOT a twi supporter by any stretch of the imagination.
Although I believe some of what they taught,
it's some of the teachings I support (endorse), not the org.
Exactly David one would think most people would get that, AND YET YOU ARE LABELED A TWI SUPPORTER IN THIS FAIR PLAYING FIELD. PERHAPS WHEN YOU POST A LITTLE KINDER YOU WILL EARN YOUR WAY OUT OF THAT PIGEON HOLE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN FILED IN, NICE BUT A WAY SUPPORTER.
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rascal
Lol Dave, I invite you to sit at my table ANY day :)
I didn`t mean to imply you were or weren`t a twi supporter...my reference to you was in the context of doctrinal issues and debates....That you are a gentleman and kind irregardless which side of the issue you debate.
Dove, I guess we had better just agree to disagree and let it rest, as I don`t think anything I say would help you see my pov or me any differently than you do.
I am sorry, for I bear neither you nor anyone else here any ill will.
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dmiller
Aw shucks! ---(Looking for a gif that kicks dirt clods here). :D
Hey -- if'n yer table has Sudo's *better than sex stew*, I'll be there!
And (pssst -- listen up)
It's *regardless*, NOT irregardless.
(how did George Jessio usta sign off?????)
oh yea --- GLOW-RY!!!!
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johniam
quote: I guess we had better just agree to disagree and let it rest,
Let it REST????? You first.
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WordWolf
Johniam,
while you're waiting for the hall monitor to sort this all out or something,
I started a new thread in this forum that may interest you.
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johniam
Way ahead of you, pal.
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templelady
If a recitation of VPW, LCM and RR's good points is not worth your time, as a supporter, to post
Why would you think it was worth anyone else's time to consider???
on that note I think I will go check out WWs new thread
Ciao
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