They may say at funerals, "now they are with Jesus" they may comfort their children with "mommy's an angel now" But if you actually look at the tenets of the faith--They believe that the dead are dead until Christ returns.
Because of the words that are used to comfort many members don't understand this, but it is true nevertheless
Right TL that's why they pray to dead people I guess.
Hi Mo..IIIIIII was actually quite nice with them, didn't want to really 'shake their faith' you know. However one of them was quite interested in learning more about 'living in grace'.That it was not available for OT believers to have the 'faith of Jesus' sort of shook 'em.
One of them was quite belligerent and indeed asked me if I was happy for my family to be condemned for eternity( I guess the old 'fear' tactic) but after talking to him a bit longer about what he meant, he said that we would not be able to be in Mormon heaven. Oh darnnnn.
Regarding what other churches teach....come on, very few teach JCinG, dead are dead, manifestations, God is good ALWAYS etc.. all in the one place. Kernels of truth yes, but not the 'whole bowl of wax' so to speak..nice try though !!
but after talking to him a bit longer about what he meant, he said that we would not be able to be in Mormon heaven. Oh darnnnn
Allen, Allen, Allen,
1) There is no such thing as "Mormon Heaven" there is the Celestial kingdom , the highest degree of heaven where all LDS would like to be--doesn 't mean a guarantee just because you are LDS though that you'll be there
2)Since none of us on the earth get to decide who gets to be where in Heaven--not being Heavenly Father, There is no way two missionaries can predict where you'll be that's not their job.
3) if you were to say that they believe and shared with you that they believe the LDS church would enable you to learn how to live so as to be in the Celestial Kingdom and that there you would be with your family--that I believe--but please don't declare that what you extrapolate from this, is the same as them having actually said that you have to be LDS to be there. The actual criteria is that you keep all covenants with God and remain steadfast to the end. There is nothing in LDS theology that says this IS NOT possible if you aren't LDS --those of us who are LDS just think being LDS makes it easier.
learning more about 'living in grace'
LDS believe in grace- what we don't believe is that you can do whatever you want with impunity and expect grace to cover you.
That it was not available for OT believers to have the 'faith of Jesus'
That is your belief system but you aren't GOD and neither was VPW --so I'll leave that where is belongs as YOUR and his belief system
I said
Perhaps they aren't all found in a given denomination but none of them are exclusive to TWI
(please note I never said I agree with the points under discussion
Then Allen you said
Regarding what other churches teach....come on, very few teach JCinG, dead are dead, manifestations, God is good ALWAYS etc.. all in the one place. Kernels of truth yes, but not the 'whole bowl of wax' so to speak..nice try though !!
And what exactly was the nice Try?? considering we both said the same thing-???? :unsure:
Oh yeah...and they kept asking me over and over "do I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet ?"
Whats the deal with that ?
I just said to them that IF he was, he sure wasn't a very accurate one !!
Yeah, o.k. 'celestial heaven' for the reeeeaaally good Mormons (or anyone who can keep the covenants) so what are the 'covenants' Mo ? No coffee, no smoking, temple weddings etc.. hmm , am I getting warm Mo ?
And you say TWI promoted an 'elitist' attitude, shame on you Mo !!
Last night a couple of Mormon missionaries knocked on our door. 3rd time that's happened in the 6 yrs we've lived here. At the time I was watching Family Feud so I told them thanks but not interested. They were polite.
We live in the Hispanic neighborhood, which seems to attract alot of door knockers. The Mormon boys have always been polite, and they are so young! I know they cleaned out the yard of one of my elderly neighbors, who is not Mormon. I've never heard of rude ones before.
The JW's are pushier, try to talk religion even after you've stated you aren't interested, plus they engaged my eleven year old in a long conversation, which I really don't agree with. My husband was home, out in his shop, they should have asked to speak with an adult, IMO.
The JW's also returned another time and asked for my eleven year old by name, but this time I answered the door. I told them my child was not supposed to talk with strangers.
The study of the Bible and the understanding of it was the goal of TWI.
whereas most other Christians regard the studying and knowledge of scripture as a goal and a necessity to better understand how to serve and please GOD, TWI regarded the knowledge and understanding of scripture to be a goal in and of it self thus permitting them to look down on a world not as "in the know"
The severance from family and friends who do not agree.
While Christianity has as a tenet that a Christian should hold to their faith even when family and friends around them do not share it, TWI promoted that those who do not share the faith are to be shunned. This relieved TWI of the responsibility of caring for and loving those not "in"
The Importance of the "I"
While most Christians are led by their faith to acts of charity toward those not of their group or social structure as directed by scripture --TWI emphasised The "I" leading to a "me against them" mentality which 1) precluded Charity to anyone not in the group and 2) precluding charity to the less fortunate in the group by declaring their misfortune was due to sin on their part ie "lacking meekness' "openig the spritual trapdoor" etc.
At first glance it might seem that TWI promoted "Group think" but on closer examination the "group think" promoted was the concept that" "I" am always right as long as I study the word and follow leadership and since "I" am always right, whatever "I" do is, therefore, also always right."
What you ended up with is an organization whose soul focus was on making themselves look good, usually at the expense of others, while all the while proclaiming that the image projected was 1) the truth and 2) said "truth" meant that they were more entitled to what they wanted and the cavalier treatment of their fellow man to obtain it -than the rest of us mortals would ever be
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Right TL that's why they pray to dead people I guess.
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allan w.
Hi Mo..IIIIIII was actually quite nice with them, didn't want to really 'shake their faith' you know. However one of them was quite interested in learning more about 'living in grace'.That it was not available for OT believers to have the 'faith of Jesus' sort of shook 'em.
One of them was quite belligerent and indeed asked me if I was happy for my family to be condemned for eternity( I guess the old 'fear' tactic) but after talking to him a bit longer about what he meant, he said that we would not be able to be in Mormon heaven. Oh darnnnn.
Regarding what other churches teach....come on, very few teach JCinG, dead are dead, manifestations, God is good ALWAYS etc.. all in the one place. Kernels of truth yes, but not the 'whole bowl of wax' so to speak..nice try though !!
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templelady
1) There is no such thing as "Mormon Heaven" there is the Celestial kingdom , the highest degree of heaven where all LDS would like to be--doesn 't mean a guarantee just because you are LDS though that you'll be there
2)Since none of us on the earth get to decide who gets to be where in Heaven--not being Heavenly Father, There is no way two missionaries can predict where you'll be that's not their job.
3) if you were to say that they believe and shared with you that they believe the LDS church would enable you to learn how to live so as to be in the Celestial Kingdom and that there you would be with your family--that I believe--but please don't declare that what you extrapolate from this, is the same as them having actually said that you have to be LDS to be there. The actual criteria is that you keep all covenants with God and remain steadfast to the end. There is nothing in LDS theology that says this IS NOT possible if you aren't LDS --those of us who are LDS just think being LDS makes it easier.
LDS believe in grace- what we don't believe is that you can do whatever you want with impunity and expect grace to cover you.
That is your belief system but you aren't GOD and neither was VPW --so I'll leave that where is belongs as YOUR and his belief system
I said
(please note I never said I agree with the points under discussion
Then Allen you said
And what exactly was the nice Try?? considering we both said the same thing-???? :unsure:
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allan w.
Oh yeah...and they kept asking me over and over "do I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet ?"
Whats the deal with that ?
I just said to them that IF he was, he sure wasn't a very accurate one !!
Yeah, o.k. 'celestial heaven' for the reeeeaaally good Mormons (or anyone who can keep the covenants) so what are the 'covenants' Mo ? No coffee, no smoking, temple weddings etc.. hmm , am I getting warm Mo ?
And you say TWI promoted an 'elitist' attitude, shame on you Mo !!
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johniam
Last night a couple of Mormon missionaries knocked on our door. 3rd time that's happened in the 6 yrs we've lived here. At the time I was watching Family Feud so I told them thanks but not interested. They were polite.
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Bramble
We live in the Hispanic neighborhood, which seems to attract alot of door knockers. The Mormon boys have always been polite, and they are so young! I know they cleaned out the yard of one of my elderly neighbors, who is not Mormon. I've never heard of rude ones before.
The JW's are pushier, try to talk religion even after you've stated you aren't interested, plus they engaged my eleven year old in a long conversation, which I really don't agree with. My husband was home, out in his shop, they should have asked to speak with an adult, IMO.
The JW's also returned another time and asked for my eleven year old by name, but this time I answered the door. I told them my child was not supposed to talk with strangers.
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templelady
You know what was with that Allen,-- please don't play dumb
NopeMe and several thousand others --I find myself in good company
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templelady
How the GOD of TWI promoted Elitism
The study of the Bible and the understanding of it was the goal of TWI.
whereas most other Christians regard the studying and knowledge of scripture as a goal and a necessity to better understand how to serve and please GOD, TWI regarded the knowledge and understanding of scripture to be a goal in and of it self thus permitting them to look down on a world not as "in the know"
The severance from family and friends who do not agree.
While Christianity has as a tenet that a Christian should hold to their faith even when family and friends around them do not share it, TWI promoted that those who do not share the faith are to be shunned. This relieved TWI of the responsibility of caring for and loving those not "in"
The Importance of the "I"
While most Christians are led by their faith to acts of charity toward those not of their group or social structure as directed by scripture --TWI emphasised The "I" leading to a "me against them" mentality which 1) precluded Charity to anyone not in the group and 2) precluding charity to the less fortunate in the group by declaring their misfortune was due to sin on their part ie "lacking meekness' "openig the spritual trapdoor" etc.
At first glance it might seem that TWI promoted "Group think" but on closer examination the "group think" promoted was the concept that" "I" am always right as long as I study the word and follow leadership and since "I" am always right, whatever "I" do is, therefore, also always right."
What you ended up with is an organization whose soul focus was on making themselves look good, usually at the expense of others, while all the while proclaiming that the image projected was 1) the truth and 2) said "truth" meant that they were more entitled to what they wanted and the cavalier treatment of their fellow man to obtain it -than the rest of us mortals would ever be
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