I have found a more faith in my vocabulary than believe.
Believe is still too hard for me.
Watching Joel Osteen (Lakewood Church) tonite was nice for me. That place has a lot of "believe" in their statement of beliefs and in the sermons.
The nice and inspirational thing about that place Lakewood Church (for me) comes from the integrity of the pastor and spokespeople -- much as the best of our ex-twi pastors -- Milford Bowen, John Shroyer, Wayne Clapp -- so many lovely and faithful men and women we know.
I am working on being able to say believing without choking up with a dam of damable junk.
Sidebar: I used to have a lot of trouble with the name "Jesus" until I rhymed it with Cheezits. Now I have no trouble with that Word of words.
I went to a church last week that sang the hymm "Blessed Assurance." Remember the chorus goes, "Blessed Assurance, Christ Jesus is mine..."
Well, I was surprised that I was surprised to hear this mainstream denomination singing "Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine!"
It always felt awkward to me to squeeze in "Christ" before Jesus. So much nicer to just refer to him by first name. So much more personal. So much nicer to put one syllable instead of two where there's really just room for one.
Which reminds me of a stow-ry. When I first moved to this town and admitted I needed help for cult damage, a lady (who'd never been way herself, but had attended a couple offshoots with other former wayfers), challenged me to say Jesus without adding Christ. I felt that I could play with her so I played it up and acted like it was next to impossible for me to "just" say Jesus. I took a deep breath and rushed the "Jesus" part and clenched my teeth shut, then acted as if I couldn't help but add "Christ." I got the biggest kick out of telling her afterward that I had been kidding, that I really could say Jesus without saying Christ.
And yet I have a number of newspaper clippings and I'm sure if you read the papers at home there are plenty of articles about things happening to people and they or someone else being interviewed stating that they had had a 'great fear' or a 'building fear' that this particular thing was going to happen to them.
One example was a teenage girl who had a 'vivid dream' that she was going to die in a car crash.
She went as far as making out a will, gifting her pony to someone etcc..
Couple of weeks later, it happened.
Like they say..."careful what you 'wish' for ".
Sure that happens...but does it happen a high enough percentage for it to be a "law"? Someone would have to keep track, but I doubt it. Then there's what rascal said...I doubt that a careful scrutiny would show that it makes any difference one way or another.
Years ago in TWI, I started having doubts about the "magic of believing."
I did a word study and found the word faith (or as TWI translated it - believe or believing) has nothing to do with what TWI taught. Rather, it is much more closely aligned with the word "trust."
Sure, we can ask for something, but instead of getting the mental mind picture, dwelling on it and "believing" for it to come to pass, God instructs us to trust him.
I had realized, while in TWI, that when I was believing for something, the answer always came in a way I never thought of, and had nothing to do with my mind picture or what I was staying my mind on. I eventually got the message.
I never use the word "believing" or "believe" anymore. Its trust.
I am not such an arrogant creation to believe that my mind can order or direct God, the creator, about and make him do my will.
When I read Hebrews with all the great "believing" victories, or faith or trust stories, I realized that:
Moses just didn't get the idea to part the Red Sea then "believe" for it to come to pass, God told him He would do this. Moses "trusted" God's word and the miracle came to pass.
The walls of Jericho didn't fall because Joshua mentally decided that's the way he would defeat the city, and kept an image in his mind. No, God told him he would make the walls fall down. Joshua's job was to trust God to bring it to pass - in God's way, even though 5 senses-wise, to most people it seems like an absurd idea.
My point is, it was God who FIRST gave the revelation and men believed, or trusted that what God said would come to pass. If you or I want to move a mountain, it will not come to pass unless God first tells us to move it. TWI has taken that verse way out of context. You can "believe" until you're blue in the face, but it will not move.
It is so much easier to "trust" God, give it to him and not worry about it. Let him bring something to pass in the way he sees fit, and not as I direct him to do. That's the great thing about faith, or trust - you must literally step out into his arms - you will not fall.
The whole "law of believing," "magic of believing" or whatever you want to call it has its roots in theosophy, and ancient "mystic" occult practices.
In many ways, TWI was a gnostic ministry - something for another thread.
Our truck got stolen. I was convinced it was in a chop shop and I would never see it again.
Well, three weeks later a policeman called to tell us our truck had been found parked on a street.
My "believing" was that it was gone for good.
Sometimes God just does stuff for us, believing or no believing.
Like John Lynn said once during one of his itineraries to our town, "Have you ever been afraid of something and it DIDN'T HAPPEN?"
All it takes is one time and it disproves the "law."
The summer when I was 16, I read Truman Capote's "In Cold Blood" about this family that got murdered by these guys they didn't know. That same summer, Richard Speck murdered 8 nurses in Chicago. I would lay awake at night being afraid that someone would invade our house and I too would be randomly murdered.
And guess what, it didn't happen.
That whole thing about fear being negative believing put us all in bondage. We had to fear our fear.
If all believing equalled receiving, the universe would be in chaos. Joe Shmoe believes for one thing, Johnny Jump Up believes for the opposite, so which one gets results? Do two opposites happen at the same time? I trow not.
Then again, I know Jesus demanded belief on the part of those he delivered. It's not something I totally reject. I know that there is such a thing as faith.
But I believe that what we were taught in TWI was a perversion of the truth, whatever that may be.
And I was scared to death of getting possessed after attending a Lyceum series by some people who were "real live exorcists" - I slept with my Bible on my chest for a week! I never got possessed (well, some TWIts would argue that).
I was scared to death of being abducted by aliens after watching a show on that. No anal probe here. No mysterious scars, either.
"Whatsoever you shall ask" replaced the parking lot angel.
I dunno. I think the parking angel comes through a lot more often than "believing" according to TWI teachings. :D
If I read it right Sunesis thinks is is easier to trust God than believe.
The demanding of God was easier, just thank Him for the red drapes and have full and complete control of the situation and be so powerful and right and better than the rest of the people.
It was a game as well how many kept silent on our true desires and wishes or needs , hurt for help because it was embarassing to say you had a cold or an illness and by the believing you had better be better the next day or your an UNBELIVER. no one wanted people to say that. so I often just wouldnt metion any problem .
horray God found me the perfect coffee maker at the garage sale but we wont metion the fact the marriage is falling apart or Im lonely, frightened or any other human feeling, I know they will tell me I need to sit through pfal AGAIN.
it created the secret circle where only those who could handle it would ever have true felowship (or truth ) with one another.
way corps and clergy had horrid things happen to them and their children were often stressed and unhappy having to move and make new friends, but if they did NOT appear as the blessed family from God who would take the class then huh?
I know one way corps gal who had several miscarrages in a row, no problem for her I guess, I mean she held the class four times that year in her apartment . suppose to be happy.
I look back and this believing thing was the reason people kept secrets didnt share their life with one another and made bad choices for their life.
believing was easy.
Now trust oh LORD I have a time with it. to trust God I have to engage in willful prayer that means something to my soul , to trust God means moving forward in life regardless of what I may want or think I need, To trust God means I really am thankful for the life IM living with the Lord.
To trust God means I do not always get my way , bottom line to trust means I lose alot of control and can not dictate what may or may not happen next.
for me it is alot more difficult. It has alowed me to find people who can say Im dying of cancer and the dr. says I got six months to a year and I still know God cares and adores and loves him.her as much as always.
I do not look for a fault in their person on just why something human or evil or just sad or anything negative may be happening. I can fully love another, because Jesus loves me.
it is better to trust God, I agree and in my opinion the "believing" concept twi taught denied God and made us almost hate one another or in the very least be afraid of sharing our life with one another in truth.
truth is a big deal to God and all Jesus christ ever really commanded of us is we worship God, and love one another.
the believe thing got warped and hurt many, and dare I say even the Lord Himself.
I was perusing the "What's New" section of the TWIt site and they have an article on believing and THEY define it as having a sureness in our heart that the Bible is the truth and that when we have confidence in the Bible, when we are ready to apply the Bible in our daily living with certainty, then we can be unwavering in our believing. They say that it is once we are convinced of the Bible, aka anchored on the truth, that's when we can expect to receive from God.
So, in English, does that mean that if we worship the Bible that we get what we want from God? :unsure:
And yet I have a number of newspaper clippings and I'm sure if you read the papers at home there are plenty of articles about things happening to people and they or someone else being interviewed stating that they had had a 'great fear' or a 'building fear' that this particular thing was going to happen to them.
One example was a teenage girl who had a 'vivid dream' that she was going to die in a car crash.
She went as far as making out a will, gifting her pony to someone etcc..
Couple of weeks later, it happened.
Like they say..."careful what you 'wish' for ".
Actually, there's a different problem with this, aside from the one Oakspear mentioned. In 100% of these cases (the ones you read about), the calamity has already taken place. It doesn't prove anything. It's the old "blame Job" approach. Find a guy when he's just lost all his kids, watch him say "I always feared something terrible would happen to my kids" (which, by the way, EVERY PARENT WHO EVER LIVED fears), and then JUMP ON HIM for having fear in his life, effectively BLAMING him for what happened!
It's horse hit.
I feared that I would not get promoted last summer. I believed, actively, that I would not get promoted last summer. I confessed my belief to others that I would not get promoted last summer.
I was challenged just this weekend on my "hypochondriac" analysis on my Web site. A hypochondriac believes he IS sick (not WILL BE, IS). Goes to the doctor, and lo and behold, nothing's wrong. Fear does not produce those results. The challenge: if the hypochondriac keeps going to that doctor, eventually a negative result will come back, which proves that fear is believing and that it produces the results.
After I stopped laughing, I sent this reply:
"If a hypochondriac keeps going to a doctor, eventually there will be a negative result? Well, DUH! Everyone gets sick. What does that prove? If someone who had perfect faith kept going to a doctor for physical check-ups, eventually a negative report will come: not because the person failed to believe, but because we have imperfect fallen bodies that will, praise God, one day be changed! Did Wierwille believe for cancer? I don't think he did. But he got it, and he died. I don't blame his lack of believing, I blame the fact that we live in a fallen world, and he was human."
I believe that some peoples 'mindsets' allows the adversary room to move in situations.
Of course if one does not believe in Satan anymore and his motives and methods then I would be posting to a brick wall.
allan, You will find all different beliefs here. Some believe in God some wonder about if there is a God and some don't believe in GOD at all. That is what is so nice here. I do believe in God but have done nothing as far as religion or anything else for nearly 20 years and really do not plan to in the near future. I do believe His word and I do pray. I do believe in satan and do believe he does bad things to people. I also think that we bring a lot of things on ourselves, either good or bad. I think that is why God gave us brains and why we are at the top of the food chain. So we can help ourselves.
When I had my children, the foundation class on "believing" came to mind very often. My husband was not in twi. He and his latin family (who are VERY over protectant of their children) with no disrespect to our wonderful latinos. They would FREAK out at any little thing that happened to the kids.
Don't go outside without shoes on or you'll cut your feet
No bare feet on the tile, or you'll get sick.
A little stumble and fall... OH MY GOD!!!They are running after them with full
speed to pick them up.
Can not spend the night anywhere in fear that they will get raped.
Don't trust anyone because everyone is out to get something from you.
I can go on and on. Needless to say.. It drove me crazy. I used to tell my husband, " YOUR believing will hurt OUR children....GAWD.. My poor husband and my crazy ways. BUT.. they were a little off the top with their fearful ways and attitudes. They are extremely passionate and wonderful too.
I've come to realize that thier BELIEVING has nothing to do with the safety of my kids.
I was perusing the "What's New" section of the TWIt site and they have an article on believing and THEY define it as having a sureness in our heart that the Bible is the truth and that when we have confidence in the Bible, when we are ready to apply the Bible in our daily living with certainty, then we can be unwavering in our believing. They say that it is once we are convinced of the Bible, aka anchored on the truth, that's when we can expect to receive from God.
So, in English, does that mean that if we worship the Bible that we get what we want from God? :unsure:
Ever read the bible?
not the few little new testimony verse here and there in a class . I read it like a text book.
Ever read of the life style and calamity and down right HORROR many of the storys tell of people and their life?
I agree with that statement actualy, somewhat.
the bible speaks of every thing we could ever face, the problem is who gets to pick and chose which testimony fits our own particular situation or circumstance? I want to be moses who wants to be a judas tody?
I do not recieve anything evil from my God and plenty of evil stories of murder and mayhem in the bible.
betrayal serious pain and lifes full of deep profound hurt sadness and everything negative.
I would not have had to live the way Jesus did in His ministry quite miserable and betrayed and then murdered and that was only 3 years of it or so.
Years ago in TWI, I started having doubts about the "magic of believing."
I did a word study and found the word faith (or as TWI translated it - believe or believing) has nothing to do with what TWI taught. Rather, it is much more closely aligned with the word "trust."
Sure, we can ask for something, but instead of getting the mental mind picture, dwelling on it and "believing" for it to come to pass, God instructs us to trust him.
I had realized, while in TWI, that when I was believing for something, the answer always came in a way I never thought of, and had nothing to do with my mind picture or what I was staying my mind on. I eventually got the message.
I never use the word "believing" or "believe" anymore. Its trust.
I am not such an arrogant creation to believe that my mind can order or direct God, the creator, about and make him do my will.
When I read Hebrews with all the great "believing" victories, or faith or trust stories, I realized that:
Moses just didn't get the idea to part the Red Sea then "believe" for it to come to pass, God told him He would do this. Moses "trusted" God's word and the miracle came to pass.
The walls of Jericho didn't fall because Joshua mentally decided that's the way he would defeat the city, and kept an image in his mind. No, God told him he would make the walls fall down. Joshua's job was to trust God to bring it to pass - in God's way, even though 5 senses-wise, to most people it seems like an absurd idea.
My point is, it was God who FIRST gave the revelation and men believed, or trusted that what God said would come to pass. If you or I want to move a mountain, it will not come to pass unless God first tells us to move it. TWI has taken that verse way out of context. You can "believe" until you're blue in the face, but it will not move.
It is so much easier to "trust" God, give it to him and not worry about it. Let him bring something to pass in the way he sees fit, and not as I direct him to do. That's the great thing about faith, or trust - you must literally step out into his arms - you will not fall.
The whole "law of believing," "magic of believing" or whatever you want to call it has its roots in theosophy, and ancient "mystic" occult practices.
In many ways, TWI was a gnostic ministry - something for another thread.
Well said Sunesis.
Ever notice that TWI often replaced the word faith with believe?
Mr. Wierwille taught that believing is a verb it connotes action, and he was right, but the word faith is translated faith for good reason. It's the Greek word pistis which is a noun, not a verb.
As Sunesis pointed out the simplest definition of faith is trust. When the Bible tells us it's impossible to please God without faith, it means we need to have trust in Him. We can't please him without trusting Him.
TWI twisted this to mean Believe, and it was bs.
Believing takes place in the mind, and there is no power of your mind outside of your own body. But faith requires trusting in something, for Christians it's God and or the Lord Jesus Christ. See it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. When we were taught to believe for things, wasn't that our will? When we have faith in God, thats His will be done. We trust that He will take care of us, we trust to obey Him and do His will.
Rememebr the story of Elijah in I Kings 17, where He tells the people it's won't rain. God tells Elijah to go to the brook and the ravens will feed him, Elijah didn't have to believe for that, God instructed him and when Elijah trusted God's word on that the ravens fed him.
See, Elijah trusted God, When the brook dried up, I guess Elijah wasn't believing enough huh! No God told him to go to a widows house and He (God) would make the food last. Elijah trusted God and it happened. Then the Widows son died, Elijah didn't say "tahnks you for raising the son from the dead" with his believing, no he asked God to bring to boy to life and trusted God and God was faithful and brought the boy to life.
Yes we can believe God and His promises, but we cannot believe in our believing to make things happen, that kinda cuts God out of the picture, if we can just believe for things.
See it's not our mind power via believing in our believing, it's God that instructs us, and when we trust him, God is faithful and fulfills His word. It's God that makes things happen, when we have faith in Him and trust Him not our believing in our believing.
Not to be picky here, but......I love the examples cited, however.....
Having faith in the general promises of God, as in what is written in the bible, could possibly different than trusting in a specific promise made by God to a specific person in a specific circumstance?
If God told you to tell a mountain to move, you tell that mountain to move, dangit. And BELIEVE it!
If God doesn't tell you to to tell a mountain to move, and you tell that mountain to move, and you do not doubt in your heart that the mountain will move, don't be surprised if a guy comes by to offer you a jacket with reeeeeallllly long sleeves.
Not to be picky here, but......I love the examples cited, however.....
Having faith in the general promises of God, as in what is written in the bible, could possibly different than trusting in a specific promise made by God to a specific person in a specific circumstance?
Yes, having faith in general promises of the Bible can be different than having faith, trusting in a specific promise from God to specific folks with specific circumstances. I agree.
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dmiller
I believe in believing in God's ability to fulfill His promises.
I do not believe in my believing to accomplish *stuff* in my life.
And I'll say a positive attitude sure beats a negative one,
even though it isn't the ruling factor in my life.
I've said it before, the *Law Of Believing* (as propounded by twi),
is an evil, evil doctrine.
It totally negates all that Jesus Christ did, and puts the load back on us.
If the *Law Of Believing* was a viable entity, Jesus died in vain.
Period.
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socks
Do I get something if I do??? :unsure:
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dmiller
Whatever you *believe* for. ;)
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socks
SWEET DEAL!
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Kit Sober
I have found a more faith in my vocabulary than believe.
Believe is still too hard for me.
Watching Joel Osteen (Lakewood Church) tonite was nice for me. That place has a lot of "believe" in their statement of beliefs and in the sermons.
The nice and inspirational thing about that place Lakewood Church (for me) comes from the integrity of the pastor and spokespeople -- much as the best of our ex-twi pastors -- Milford Bowen, John Shroyer, Wayne Clapp -- so many lovely and faithful men and women we know.
I am working on being able to say believing without choking up with a dam of damable junk.
Sidebar: I used to have a lot of trouble with the name "Jesus" until I rhymed it with Cheezits. Now I have no trouble with that Word of words.
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bowtwi
I went to a church last week that sang the hymm "Blessed Assurance." Remember the chorus goes, "Blessed Assurance, Christ Jesus is mine..."
Well, I was surprised that I was surprised to hear this mainstream denomination singing "Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine!"
It always felt awkward to me to squeeze in "Christ" before Jesus. So much nicer to just refer to him by first name. So much more personal. So much nicer to put one syllable instead of two where there's really just room for one.
Which reminds me of a stow-ry. When I first moved to this town and admitted I needed help for cult damage, a lady (who'd never been way herself, but had attended a couple offshoots with other former wayfers), challenged me to say Jesus without adding Christ. I felt that I could play with her so I played it up and acted like it was next to impossible for me to "just" say Jesus. I took a deep breath and rushed the "Jesus" part and clenched my teeth shut, then acted as if I couldn't help but add "Christ." I got the biggest kick out of telling her afterward that I had been kidding, that I really could say Jesus without saying Christ.
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!
Sweetest name I know...
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Oakspear
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Sunesis
Years ago in TWI, I started having doubts about the "magic of believing."
I did a word study and found the word faith (or as TWI translated it - believe or believing) has nothing to do with what TWI taught. Rather, it is much more closely aligned with the word "trust."
Sure, we can ask for something, but instead of getting the mental mind picture, dwelling on it and "believing" for it to come to pass, God instructs us to trust him.
I had realized, while in TWI, that when I was believing for something, the answer always came in a way I never thought of, and had nothing to do with my mind picture or what I was staying my mind on. I eventually got the message.
I never use the word "believing" or "believe" anymore. Its trust.
I am not such an arrogant creation to believe that my mind can order or direct God, the creator, about and make him do my will.
When I read Hebrews with all the great "believing" victories, or faith or trust stories, I realized that:
Moses just didn't get the idea to part the Red Sea then "believe" for it to come to pass, God told him He would do this. Moses "trusted" God's word and the miracle came to pass.
The walls of Jericho didn't fall because Joshua mentally decided that's the way he would defeat the city, and kept an image in his mind. No, God told him he would make the walls fall down. Joshua's job was to trust God to bring it to pass - in God's way, even though 5 senses-wise, to most people it seems like an absurd idea.
My point is, it was God who FIRST gave the revelation and men believed, or trusted that what God said would come to pass. If you or I want to move a mountain, it will not come to pass unless God first tells us to move it. TWI has taken that verse way out of context. You can "believe" until you're blue in the face, but it will not move.
It is so much easier to "trust" God, give it to him and not worry about it. Let him bring something to pass in the way he sees fit, and not as I direct him to do. That's the great thing about faith, or trust - you must literally step out into his arms - you will not fall.
The whole "law of believing," "magic of believing" or whatever you want to call it has its roots in theosophy, and ancient "mystic" occult practices.
In many ways, TWI was a gnostic ministry - something for another thread.
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outandabout
Our truck got stolen. I was convinced it was in a chop shop and I would never see it again.
Well, three weeks later a policeman called to tell us our truck had been found parked on a street.
My "believing" was that it was gone for good.
Sometimes God just does stuff for us, believing or no believing.
Like John Lynn said once during one of his itineraries to our town, "Have you ever been afraid of something and it DIDN'T HAPPEN?"
All it takes is one time and it disproves the "law."
The summer when I was 16, I read Truman Capote's "In Cold Blood" about this family that got murdered by these guys they didn't know. That same summer, Richard Speck murdered 8 nurses in Chicago. I would lay awake at night being afraid that someone would invade our house and I too would be randomly murdered.
And guess what, it didn't happen.
That whole thing about fear being negative believing put us all in bondage. We had to fear our fear.
If all believing equalled receiving, the universe would be in chaos. Joe Shmoe believes for one thing, Johnny Jump Up believes for the opposite, so which one gets results? Do two opposites happen at the same time? I trow not.
Then again, I know Jesus demanded belief on the part of those he delivered. It's not something I totally reject. I know that there is such a thing as faith.
But I believe that what we were taught in TWI was a perversion of the truth, whatever that may be.
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Belle
And I was scared to death of getting possessed after attending a Lyceum series by some people who were "real live exorcists" - I slept with my Bible on my chest for a week! I never got possessed (well, some TWIts would argue that).
I was scared to death of being abducted by aliens after watching a show on that. No anal probe here. No mysterious scars, either.
I dunno. I think the parking angel comes through a lot more often than "believing" according to TWI teachings. :D
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pond
If I read it right Sunesis thinks is is easier to trust God than believe.
The demanding of God was easier, just thank Him for the red drapes and have full and complete control of the situation and be so powerful and right and better than the rest of the people.
It was a game as well how many kept silent on our true desires and wishes or needs , hurt for help because it was embarassing to say you had a cold or an illness and by the believing you had better be better the next day or your an UNBELIVER. no one wanted people to say that. so I often just wouldnt metion any problem .
horray God found me the perfect coffee maker at the garage sale but we wont metion the fact the marriage is falling apart or Im lonely, frightened or any other human feeling, I know they will tell me I need to sit through pfal AGAIN.
it created the secret circle where only those who could handle it would ever have true felowship (or truth ) with one another.
way corps and clergy had horrid things happen to them and their children were often stressed and unhappy having to move and make new friends, but if they did NOT appear as the blessed family from God who would take the class then huh?
I know one way corps gal who had several miscarrages in a row, no problem for her I guess, I mean she held the class four times that year in her apartment . suppose to be happy.
I look back and this believing thing was the reason people kept secrets didnt share their life with one another and made bad choices for their life.
believing was easy.
Now trust oh LORD I have a time with it. to trust God I have to engage in willful prayer that means something to my soul , to trust God means moving forward in life regardless of what I may want or think I need, To trust God means I really am thankful for the life IM living with the Lord.
To trust God means I do not always get my way , bottom line to trust means I lose alot of control and can not dictate what may or may not happen next.
for me it is alot more difficult. It has alowed me to find people who can say Im dying of cancer and the dr. says I got six months to a year and I still know God cares and adores and loves him.her as much as always.
I do not look for a fault in their person on just why something human or evil or just sad or anything negative may be happening. I can fully love another, because Jesus loves me.
it is better to trust God, I agree and in my opinion the "believing" concept twi taught denied God and made us almost hate one another or in the very least be afraid of sharing our life with one another in truth.
truth is a big deal to God and all Jesus christ ever really commanded of us is we worship God, and love one another.
the believe thing got warped and hurt many, and dare I say even the Lord Himself.
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Belle
I was perusing the "What's New" section of the TWIt site and they have an article on believing and THEY define it as having a sureness in our heart that the Bible is the truth and that when we have confidence in the Bible, when we are ready to apply the Bible in our daily living with certainty, then we can be unwavering in our believing. They say that it is once we are convinced of the Bible, aka anchored on the truth, that's when we can expect to receive from God.
So, in English, does that mean that if we worship the Bible that we get what we want from God? :unsure:
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Raf
Actually, there's a different problem with this, aside from the one Oakspear mentioned. In 100% of these cases (the ones you read about), the calamity has already taken place. It doesn't prove anything. It's the old "blame Job" approach. Find a guy when he's just lost all his kids, watch him say "I always feared something terrible would happen to my kids" (which, by the way, EVERY PARENT WHO EVER LIVED fears), and then JUMP ON HIM for having fear in his life, effectively BLAMING him for what happened!
It's horse hit.
I feared that I would not get promoted last summer. I believed, actively, that I would not get promoted last summer. I confessed my belief to others that I would not get promoted last summer.
Do You Know What I Did Last Summer?
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ex10
wow, pond.
What you said is so true. The "law of believing" (among other related things) bred a conspiracy of silence, and emotional death.
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Raf
I was challenged just this weekend on my "hypochondriac" analysis on my Web site. A hypochondriac believes he IS sick (not WILL BE, IS). Goes to the doctor, and lo and behold, nothing's wrong. Fear does not produce those results. The challenge: if the hypochondriac keeps going to that doctor, eventually a negative result will come back, which proves that fear is believing and that it produces the results.
After I stopped laughing, I sent this reply:
"If a hypochondriac keeps going to a doctor, eventually there will be a negative result? Well, DUH! Everyone gets sick. What does that prove? If someone who had perfect faith kept going to a doctor for physical check-ups, eventually a negative report will come: not because the person failed to believe, but because we have imperfect fallen bodies that will, praise God, one day be changed! Did Wierwille believe for cancer? I don't think he did. But he got it, and he died. I don't blame his lack of believing, I blame the fact that we live in a fallen world, and he was human."
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allan w.
I believe that some peoples 'mindsets' allows the adversary room to move in situations.
Of course if one does not believe in Satan anymore and his motives and methods then I would be posting to a brick wall.
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justloafing
allan, You will find all different beliefs here. Some believe in God some wonder about if there is a God and some don't believe in GOD at all. That is what is so nice here. I do believe in God but have done nothing as far as religion or anything else for nearly 20 years and really do not plan to in the near future. I do believe His word and I do pray. I do believe in satan and do believe he does bad things to people. I also think that we bring a lot of things on ourselves, either good or bad. I think that is why God gave us brains and why we are at the top of the food chain. So we can help ourselves.
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Sunnyfla
When I had my children, the foundation class on "believing" came to mind very often. My husband was not in twi. He and his latin family (who are VERY over protectant of their children) with no disrespect to our wonderful latinos. They would FREAK out at any little thing that happened to the kids.
Don't go outside without shoes on or you'll cut your feet
No bare feet on the tile, or you'll get sick.
A little stumble and fall... OH MY GOD!!!They are running after them with full
speed to pick them up.
Can not spend the night anywhere in fear that they will get raped.
Don't trust anyone because everyone is out to get something from you.
I can go on and on. Needless to say.. It drove me crazy. I used to tell my husband, " YOUR believing will hurt OUR children....GAWD.. My poor husband and my crazy ways. BUT.. they were a little off the top with their fearful ways and attitudes. They are extremely passionate and wonderful too.
I've come to realize that thier BELIEVING has nothing to do with the safety of my kids.
I have more to say, but I need to go for now
Sunny
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Sweetpea
Also remember,
LUCK beats brains anyday!
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pond
Ever read the bible?
not the few little new testimony verse here and there in a class . I read it like a text book.
Ever read of the life style and calamity and down right HORROR many of the storys tell of people and their life?
I agree with that statement actualy, somewhat.
the bible speaks of every thing we could ever face, the problem is who gets to pick and chose which testimony fits our own particular situation or circumstance? I want to be moses who wants to be a judas tody?
I do not recieve anything evil from my God and plenty of evil stories of murder and mayhem in the bible.
betrayal serious pain and lifes full of deep profound hurt sadness and everything negative.
I would not have had to live the way Jesus did in His ministry quite miserable and betrayed and then murdered and that was only 3 years of it or so.
l
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Outin88.
Well said Sunesis.
Ever notice that TWI often replaced the word faith with believe?
Mr. Wierwille taught that believing is a verb it connotes action, and he was right, but the word faith is translated faith for good reason. It's the Greek word pistis which is a noun, not a verb.
As Sunesis pointed out the simplest definition of faith is trust. When the Bible tells us it's impossible to please God without faith, it means we need to have trust in Him. We can't please him without trusting Him.
TWI twisted this to mean Believe, and it was bs.
Believing takes place in the mind, and there is no power of your mind outside of your own body. But faith requires trusting in something, for Christians it's God and or the Lord Jesus Christ. See it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. When we were taught to believe for things, wasn't that our will? When we have faith in God, thats His will be done. We trust that He will take care of us, we trust to obey Him and do His will.
Rememebr the story of Elijah in I Kings 17, where He tells the people it's won't rain. God tells Elijah to go to the brook and the ravens will feed him, Elijah didn't have to believe for that, God instructed him and when Elijah trusted God's word on that the ravens fed him.
See, Elijah trusted God, When the brook dried up, I guess Elijah wasn't believing enough huh! No God told him to go to a widows house and He (God) would make the food last. Elijah trusted God and it happened. Then the Widows son died, Elijah didn't say "tahnks you for raising the son from the dead" with his believing, no he asked God to bring to boy to life and trusted God and God was faithful and brought the boy to life.
Yes we can believe God and His promises, but we cannot believe in our believing to make things happen, that kinda cuts God out of the picture, if we can just believe for things.
See it's not our mind power via believing in our believing, it's God that instructs us, and when we trust him, God is faithful and fulfills His word. It's God that makes things happen, when we have faith in Him and trust Him not our believing in our believing.
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ex10
Not to be picky here, but......I love the examples cited, however.....
Having faith in the general promises of God, as in what is written in the bible, could possibly different than trusting in a specific promise made by God to a specific person in a specific circumstance?
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Raf
Sure.
If God told you to tell a mountain to move, you tell that mountain to move, dangit. And BELIEVE it!
If God doesn't tell you to to tell a mountain to move, and you tell that mountain to move, and you do not doubt in your heart that the mountain will move, don't be surprised if a guy comes by to offer you a jacket with reeeeeallllly long sleeves.
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Outin88.
Yes, having faith in general promises of the Bible can be different than having faith, trusting in a specific promise from God to specific folks with specific circumstances. I agree.
And Raf, I could use a jacket!!!
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