Ya know Rascal you said TWI felt like a box. Funny thing I was talking to Dr. John Juedes about a week ago. I was emotionally exhausted from reviewing the internet sites for over a month, and even told him I was rethinking the last 13 years of my christian exsistance as a scam. I told John, "Even after LCM left over seven years ago now; TWI still feels like a box." It wasn't as bad as looking at our finances (make sure we were giving the mandated 10% if not more), they didn't force people to be out of debt or you were mark and avoid anymore (yes they really did that in spades I might add), and they have lightened up a lot. But it still felt LIKE A BOX... It still is no where near what some of you have described in other links as the good old days (I never saw the good old days). Why did I stay? I was looking for the truth of God's word, and I really felt I found it. I definately wasn't getting it from my local churches. Leadership had a way that could convince you that you can't find this out there anywhere else. I believed them. I take responsibility for that. I feel they are probably hurting for membership right now. When I mentioned to John that they had lightened up a little he reminded me of my own words, "Ya, but you said it still feels like a box." A box is a box is a box...
I finally left (I was a DIE HARD TYPE) because the proof against them was so overwhelming. You couldn't dispute it, and it showed lies and cover up. I still think some of what they teach is good (partially because some of it is from great biblical minds such as Bullinger, Kenyan, B.G. Leanard, J.E. Stiles, exc), but I also realize I'm going to be getting bad TWI doctrine out of my head over the next couple of years as well.
I was never around during the Wierwille days, I came right as LCM's classes took hold (mid 90's). I stayed because I wanted the word. I take responsibility for a lot of the abuse I took (nothing made me stay except my own fear of losing God's word). I should have been more critical of LCM (and local abusive Way teachers) as just a man, and worked the word myself a little harder. Heck I was scared Way Core might find out I was looking at this site a year ago.
Just a note to all of you. There are may people who look at this site and NEVER post or sign up. I was one of them. Yes I was reading while I was in TWI and was being told not to.
If you are reading this and your in TWI please understand that TWI does not hold the copyright to God's heart. There are a lot of churches and fellowships that love God too, and many (I didn't say all) of them teach the truth. You can move on after TWI. I'm just starting that journey, and I'm excited to have a relationship with God outside of TWI goggles.
Did I mention that in the Advance Class mid 90's I heard Mrs. Wierwille make a special point to mention that V.P. Wierwille never disputed learning from men such as Kenyan, B.G. Leanard, Bullinger, J.E. Stiles exc. I asked John Juedes if his site was up at that time with most the information it has on it now (plagerism, lying about his credentials, exc). John Juedes said that the site was up at that time. I only mention this because it seemed as though Mrs. Wierwille was trying to dispute Dr. Juedes site back then (I wouldn't have known it back then I had not looked at the site). One thing Mrs. Wierwille left out (God bless her I'll see her in the gathering together) is that V.P. never properly gave those men credit in his books (especially Receiving The Holy Spirit Today). That to me was the LIE that broke the camels back of all the lies.
Ya know Rascal you said TWI felt like a box. Funny thing I was talking to Dr. John Juedes about a week ago. I was emotionally exhausted from reviewing the internet sites for over a month, and even told him I was rethinking the last 13 years of my christian exsistance as a scam. I told John, "Even after LCM left over seven years ago now; TWI still feels like a box." It wasn't as bad as looking at our finances (make sure we were giving the mandated 10% if not more), they didn't force people to be out of debt or you were mark and avoid anymore (yes they really did that in spades I might add), and they have lightened up a lot. But it still felt LIKE A BOX... It still is no where near what some of you have described in other links as the good old days (I never saw the good old days). Why did I stay? I was looking for the truth of God's word, and I really felt I found it. I definately wasn't getting it from my local churches. Leadership had a way that could convince you that you can't find this out there anywhere else. I believed them. I take responsibility for that. I feel they are probably hurting for membership right now. When I mentioned to John that they had lightened up a little he reminded me of my own words, "Ya, but you said it still feels like a box." A box is a box is a box...
I finally left (I was a DIE HARD TYPE) because the proof against them was so overwhelming. You couldn't dispute it, and it showed lies and cover up.
Welcome agape99.
Others who've left twi's doors in the past few years describe twi's sunday services as an exercise in boring script-reading sermons. And, knowing behind the scenes that rosalie and company preview and pre-approve these "teachings" for public consumption is very telling. Sounds like a boxed-doctrine approach, eh?
Churches EVERYWHERE have a better approach than this.
Oh, and you mentioned B.G. Leonard.........if you still have Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve, you might want to review the timeline. In brief, it says:
....1) In February 1953, vpw went to Calgary, Alberta to take Rev. Leonard's class.
....2) In June/July 1953 vpw, mrs, don and others go and take Rev. Leonard's class.
....3) In Oct. 1953, vpw teaches his "Receiving the holy spirit" class -- no syllabus, no handouts. A few years later, this class was renamed pfal.
And, it's good to hear that lurkers are READING THIS FORUM.....that's why lots of us continue to post. I began my extensive questioning 12 years ago and left when I had more good reasons for leaving than staying with this deceitful organization.
For some people, I would say it felt like an electric fence..
they say all a farm animal has to do is to touch the fence just once.. then you can turn off the juice. It'll never touch it again.
Mr. Hamarroni,
I didn't feel an electric fence, an electric chair yes, an electric fence no.
Honestly I'm still dealing with things in my head from my time there (it was very recent). I think back at how I wouldn't talk to people who were mark and avoid (even though looking back at it I can honestly say 99.9% of them did not deserve it). I remember I had a friend (a very good friend whom I loved dearly) who becamce mark and avoid after he sent LCM a huge letter about how local leadership were over stepping their boundaries. I found out about it in a meeting. Never talked to my friend again; I just sent him his books back in the mail. All the guy wanted to do was start his own karate studio. Local leadership accused him of getting all spiritually out of whack. I stayed.... I turned my back on my friend, and I am ashamed of that to this day. Funny thing is out of all the bad things that happened to me personally I'm OK with. I know I will overcome that. What I'm having a hard time with is the two people I turned my back on in the mid 90's while I was a WAY-BOT. That I'm having a hard time living with.
That mark and avoid policy was pretty severe back in the 90's. Thank God for the people still in that they have calmed down on that one. BUT IT'S STILL A BOX!!!
Others who've left twi's doors in the past few years describe twi's sunday services as an exercise in boring script-reading sermons. And, knowing behind the scenes that rosalie and company preview and pre-approve these "teachings" for public consumption is very telling. Sounds like a boxed-doctrine approach, eh?
Good comments Skyrider.
I stopped ordering the Sunday Service tapes for the very reason you stated. However, if you were ever needing a good cure for insomnia. Those early Sunday Service Tapes were the cure. One guy I talked with back then said, "Don't they realize their f***ing boring?"
I have heard better sermons in church recently, and I have come to realize that Wierwille got all his good information from others. In my opinion The Way has come to look a lot like THE TOWER OF BABEL...
What made you decide that enough was enough and you were headed for the door?
Tell us about the incident or incidents that brought you to the FRESH AIR you breathe today!!
Remember.... the is in the details....
I knew I should leave when I wanted to start hitting people. I'm not joking. With a mindset like that, swinging back against verbal assaults and general tyranny, it was not God's ministry. I wanted to be delivered FROM that, not delivered INTO it.
After reading some of the posts, I think now is a good time to add another 2 cents worth. I finally realized it was time when I saw the lies & double-dealing going on locally. It's hard to stand by an organization that continually rewards falsehoods, deceit and down-right lies, while the leadership down the tree does nothing except harass and intimidate those that jopined for the Word.
I too felt really bad about the people I stopped talking to because of being a way-bot myself. (Not to mention the people I reproved for stupid things.)
It also bothered me that I recruited others into twi and there are a few who joined the Way Corpse because of me and they are still in.
If you can track down your 2 friends, you may find they will forgive you and you can start over in your friendship.
My husband and I stopped going in '99 because he was tired of working full time to support a family of 5,while being told we had to go to every STS to REALLY get blessed since we were living only a couple hours away,on top of 3 HF meetings per week and "fun nights" on fridays so we could move the word.We were exhausted!School nights are not good nights for meetings that weren't over until 9-9:30.I had to make sure dinner and homework and baths were done beforehand,and heaven forbid we miss a meeting.That was heresy!I still felt the pull for 2 more years and in '01 I went back? for a brief time.When I asked what happened to LCM and why he wasn't Prez,I wasn't given any info.Iasked my son to google him and that's when the lawsuit was uncovered.At the same time I was being confronted because I didn't want to drive 45 minutes each way to meetings on school days.When I was there,everyone acted like I was "The Debil!" and my kids hated going.Since my commitment level was lacking as far as they were concerned I just stopped going.It didn't seem worth it to go since we spent twice as much time driving as we spent at the meeting.Even the New Years Eve "party" was just a fellowship meeting.That was the last time I made the drive and I honestly don't regret my choice.
Sorry,error on my post.It was not '01 when I went,it was '03,my son was born in '01 so it had to be '03 as he was able to run up the stairs from the basement where children's fellowship was.I had asked about LCM's STS after 9/11 and got a "that guy was crazy" comment.I want to add though that the people who were our friends in Twig I would love to find and chat with.Any former ohio or northern kentucky followers here?
I do have a question, what is POP that everyone is talking about?
I got out in the mid 80's after about 12 years "in". I left due to many things; Trunk, Limb leaders watching porn, VPW's death such a secret, passing of the patriarch, adultry papers, watching LCM's "dancing on stage" ( I think I might barf) and ex-corps living at HQ telling me about LCM's using her and others and putting his name on research, articles that he never wrote. Heard about "mark and avoid" after I left.
To this day, I believe it was always this way from the beginning. I knew personally of two people that had been with VPW from much the beginning (they were older than me) and to this day, believe they are still in, don't want to say too much cause of apparently spying eyes I have heard that look in on this site.
I believe we wanted to know the word and were drawn in due to our love for God. But I must take responsibility for allowing TWI to "rule" my life for those years.
If my memory serves me, it is Mathew that says you can not serve two masters. That is where I went wrong it is also where the majority went wrong when we stopped serving God and started serving TWI.
Man will always screw up. When we thought that VPW was perfect, everything he taught was true revelation, leadership was perfect, and that they knew better than we did what God wanted for our lives, we were as wrong as them. Yes, they were wrong in their actions, lies, etc. But we were also wrong for believing them.
It has taken me quite a long time to "grow up". It has taken a lot of soul searching, reading the bible, talking to God, just reading this site over the past few years to realize that I too must take responsibilty and move on. I say this more for those that have recently left TWI and for those who were "in" for many years. Man will always let you down, look to God for your answers and you will then be able to let go and live the life that God meant you to live.
I do have a question, what is POP that everyone is talking about?
I got out in the mid 80's after about 12 years "in". I left due to many things; Trunk, Limb leaders watching porn, VPW's death such a secret, passing of the patriarch,
POP=Passing of the Patriarch,
and the ensuing hijinks connected with it.
The Greasespot 101 forum has a "Wayspeak and Greasespotspeak" thread which may come
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Welcome Agapeo99 to GreaseSpot Café!
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agape99
Thank you Rainbow Girl for the warm welcome.
Did I mention that in the Advance Class mid 90's I heard Mrs. Wierwille make a special point to mention that V.P. Wierwille never disputed learning from men such as Kenyan, B.G. Leanard, Bullinger, J.E. Stiles exc. I asked John Juedes if his site was up at that time with most the information it has on it now (plagerism, lying about his credentials, exc). John Juedes said that the site was up at that time. I only mention this because it seemed as though Mrs. Wierwille was trying to dispute Dr. Juedes site back then (I wouldn't have known it back then I had not looked at the site). One thing Mrs. Wierwille left out (God bless her I'll see her in the gathering together) is that V.P. never properly gave those men credit in his books (especially Receiving The Holy Spirit Today). That to me was the LIE that broke the camels back of all the lies.
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skyrider
Welcome agape99.
Others who've left twi's doors in the past few years describe twi's sunday services as an exercise in boring script-reading sermons. And, knowing behind the scenes that rosalie and company preview and pre-approve these "teachings" for public consumption is very telling. Sounds like a boxed-doctrine approach, eh?
Churches EVERYWHERE have a better approach than this.
Oh, and you mentioned B.G. Leonard.........if you still have Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve, you might want to review the timeline. In brief, it says:
....1) In February 1953, vpw went to Calgary, Alberta to take Rev. Leonard's class.
....2) In June/July 1953 vpw, mrs, don and others go and take Rev. Leonard's class.
....3) In Oct. 1953, vpw teaches his "Receiving the holy spirit" class -- no syllabus, no handouts. A few years later, this class was renamed pfal.
And, it's good to hear that lurkers are READING THIS FORUM.....that's why lots of us continue to post. I began my extensive questioning 12 years ago and left when I had more good reasons for leaving than staying with this deceitful organization.
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Ham
Welcome Agape99.
For some people, I would say it felt like an electric fence..
they say all a farm animal has to do is to touch the fence just once.. then you can turn off the juice. It'll never touch it again.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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agape99
For some people, I would say it felt like an electric fence..
they say all a farm animal has to do is to touch the fence just once.. then you can turn off the juice. It'll never touch it again.
Mr. Hamarroni,
I didn't feel an electric fence, an electric chair yes, an electric fence no.
Honestly I'm still dealing with things in my head from my time there (it was very recent). I think back at how I wouldn't talk to people who were mark and avoid (even though looking back at it I can honestly say 99.9% of them did not deserve it). I remember I had a friend (a very good friend whom I loved dearly) who becamce mark and avoid after he sent LCM a huge letter about how local leadership were over stepping their boundaries. I found out about it in a meeting. Never talked to my friend again; I just sent him his books back in the mail. All the guy wanted to do was start his own karate studio. Local leadership accused him of getting all spiritually out of whack. I stayed.... I turned my back on my friend, and I am ashamed of that to this day. Funny thing is out of all the bad things that happened to me personally I'm OK with. I know I will overcome that. What I'm having a hard time with is the two people I turned my back on in the mid 90's while I was a WAY-BOT. That I'm having a hard time living with.
That mark and avoid policy was pretty severe back in the 90's. Thank God for the people still in that they have calmed down on that one. BUT IT'S STILL A BOX!!!
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agape99
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Eagle
I knew I should leave when I wanted to start hitting people. I'm not joking. With a mindset like that, swinging back against verbal assaults and general tyranny, it was not God's ministry. I wanted to be delivered FROM that, not delivered INTO it.
Eagle
Eagle
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railroader II
After reading some of the posts, I think now is a good time to add another 2 cents worth. I finally realized it was time when I saw the lies & double-dealing going on locally. It's hard to stand by an organization that continually rewards falsehoods, deceit and down-right lies, while the leadership down the tree does nothing except harass and intimidate those that jopined for the Word.
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penguin
Agape,
I too felt really bad about the people I stopped talking to because of being a way-bot myself. (Not to mention the people I reproved for stupid things.)
It also bothered me that I recruited others into twi and there are a few who joined the Way Corpse because of me and they are still in.
If you can track down your 2 friends, you may find they will forgive you and you can start over in your friendship.
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WordWolf
Sorry I never got back to this.
I was referring to this editorial off the main site:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editor...to-suicide.html
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busymomma
My husband and I stopped going in '99 because he was tired of working full time to support a family of 5,while being told we had to go to every STS to REALLY get blessed since we were living only a couple hours away,on top of 3 HF meetings per week and "fun nights" on fridays so we could move the word.We were exhausted!School nights are not good nights for meetings that weren't over until 9-9:30.I had to make sure dinner and homework and baths were done beforehand,and heaven forbid we miss a meeting.That was heresy!I still felt the pull for 2 more years and in '01 I went back? for a brief time.When I asked what happened to LCM and why he wasn't Prez,I wasn't given any info.Iasked my son to google him and that's when the lawsuit was uncovered.At the same time I was being confronted because I didn't want to drive 45 minutes each way to meetings on school days.When I was there,everyone acted like I was "The Debil!" and my kids hated going.Since my commitment level was lacking as far as they were concerned I just stopped going.It didn't seem worth it to go since we spent twice as much time driving as we spent at the meeting.Even the New Years Eve "party" was just a fellowship meeting.That was the last time I made the drive and I honestly don't regret my choice.
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busymomma
Sorry,error on my post.It was not '01 when I went,it was '03,my son was born in '01 so it had to be '03 as he was able to run up the stairs from the basement where children's fellowship was.I had asked about LCM's STS after 9/11 and got a "that guy was crazy" comment.I want to add though that the people who were our friends in Twig I would love to find and chat with.Any former ohio or northern kentucky followers here?
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rosestoyou
I do have a question, what is POP that everyone is talking about?
I got out in the mid 80's after about 12 years "in". I left due to many things; Trunk, Limb leaders watching porn, VPW's death such a secret, passing of the patriarch, adultry papers, watching LCM's "dancing on stage" ( I think I might barf) and ex-corps living at HQ telling me about LCM's using her and others and putting his name on research, articles that he never wrote. Heard about "mark and avoid" after I left.
To this day, I believe it was always this way from the beginning. I knew personally of two people that had been with VPW from much the beginning (they were older than me) and to this day, believe they are still in, don't want to say too much cause of apparently spying eyes I have heard that look in on this site.
I believe we wanted to know the word and were drawn in due to our love for God. But I must take responsibility for allowing TWI to "rule" my life for those years.
If my memory serves me, it is Mathew that says you can not serve two masters. That is where I went wrong it is also where the majority went wrong when we stopped serving God and started serving TWI.
Man will always screw up. When we thought that VPW was perfect, everything he taught was true revelation, leadership was perfect, and that they knew better than we did what God wanted for our lives, we were as wrong as them. Yes, they were wrong in their actions, lies, etc. But we were also wrong for believing them.
It has taken me quite a long time to "grow up". It has taken a lot of soul searching, reading the bible, talking to God, just reading this site over the past few years to realize that I too must take responsibilty and move on. I say this more for those that have recently left TWI and for those who were "in" for many years. Man will always let you down, look to God for your answers and you will then be able to let go and live the life that God meant you to live.
Lovingly,
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Bumpy
Looks like GREAT STUFF for the Soap Opera section Herr WW! Did anyone ever solve the mystery??
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WordWolf
POP=Passing of the Patriarch,
and the ensuing hijinks connected with it.
The Greasespot 101 forum has a "Wayspeak and Greasespotspeak" thread which may come
in handy.
Oh,
and hello. :)
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