What has been presented has hardly been paid attention to.
I spend most of my time here responding to issues about me or ministry history. I’d prefer the latter but rather most of all prefer to get into the texts.
There’s some of that doojable commented on regarding BTMS’s Preface, so MY interests draw me in that direction.
What has been presented has hardly been paid attention to.
I spend most of my time here responding to issues about me or ministry history. I’d prefer the latter but rather most of all prefer to get into the texts.
There’s some of that doojable commented on regarding BTMS’s Preface, so MY interests draw me in that direction.
There you go again. Blaming everyone else for your problems.
I spend most of my time here responding to issues about me or ministry history.
You are the one that keeps bringing yourself up and not pfal. These are the questions you choose to answer. Noone is forcing you to answer anything.
You want this to be about YOU and how great YOU are for coming up with this "thesis". You want to be served and worshipped. It ain't going to happen here!
What exactly do you want to discuss? Raf and others have said tht they feel there is anywhere from some to a lot of good in PFAL. ( OK, some have said there is no good - but I'm assuming that that is not something you want to discuss.)
Let's find a subject we can all DISCUSS - without name calling and backbiting. The art here is finding the happy medium ( not the one on the corner with the crystal ball - lol :) )
So, maybe if you don't mind, Raf or dmiller can start on a subject they find in PFAL that they agree with and we can start there with a civil discussion. At least it will be a beginning. You'd be meeting people where they are at. We are getting nowhere fast right now. I'm asking that we table the "God-breathed" of PFAL. I know that this is your thread - but if we can't agree to disagree on a subject and move on - well eventually there will be no discussion because a lot of us will take our toys and go home - not out of concession, but because its just not fun anymore. I am fast tiring of this banter - it does no good and has no profit. We are at a stalemate. If this were a game of chess we would congratulate each other on a good game and go have some beers - then start another game another day. (except I don't play chess - I'd be watching - and I don't drink beer - I'd be sipping a vodka and tonic.)
just a suggestion..
BTW if you would like to answer my question from several pages back I would still like to read it - either here or in a pm.
I highly suggest you do put the time into a research paper. You could do it in stages - "Pfal is Godbreathed" could be you first thesis in a grander scale piece.
Don't you think it would be easier if you werent fighting all these flash fires about integrity - when you're really trying to get to a bigger subject?
There is a quote I heard the other day that went somethinglike this:
"In any relationship there is a balance of power. The person with the most power is the person with the least commitment to the relationship because the person with the least commitment is always unwilling to compromise."
Think about it - it explains a lot about a lot of things.........
Mike... that "myspace" thing is really taking off these days... you could probably find a lot of folks over there that would buy into your thesis hook line and sinker...
Of course, I wouldn't want you to forsake us over here though...
Get the "myspace.com" thing up and running... we won't bother you there... we promise! (besides, you can delete our posts from there)... but with the "myspace.com" thing going we could really have a show!
You forget, though, it's generally OLGs that I'm aimed at.
There don't look to be too many OLGs there.
I'm betting that they'd be able to find it... and those that are 'afraid' to come to GSC wouldn't be afraid to go there.
The MySpace grads are grads of another class.
You know... that's one area I think you're missing it... IF all of this stuff is God-breathed, then it wouldn't be limited to OLGs. I think that's a limit you're putting on it. I think those young folks would probably be highly receptive to your work. And if here is where you'll bring out the 'to whom addressed' argument, how do you know that veepee's edict to "master PFAL" wasn't addressed to ALL grads? Just like the epistles are (allegedly) written to those of the grace administration yet we were taught they were addressed "to us" even though we weren't alive then... Wouldn't it make sense that vepee's edict was addressed to ALL grads... those alive at the time and those to come? IF it's God-breathed that's the only way it makes sense...
You're limiting God's audience... these new kids could use some learnin'!
***
doojable,
I'd like to get into the dicotomy of the Natural-Factual versus the Spiritual-Divine in written PFAL.
You're so right about putting out fires. I've thought of retiring and putting out an OLG Newsletter, compete with AARP maybe.
You wrote: “...IF all of this stuff is God-breathed, then it wouldn't be limited to OLGs. I think that's a limit you're putting on it. I think those young folks would probably be highly receptive to your work. And if here is where you'll bring out the 'to whom addressed' argument, how do you know that veepee's edict to "master PFAL" wasn't addressed to ALL grads? Just like the epistles are (allegedly) written to those of the grace administration yet we were taught they were addressed "to us" even though we weren't alive then... Wouldn't it make sense that vepee's edict was addressed to ALL grads... those alive at the time and those to come? IF it's God-breathed that's the only way it makes sense...You're limiting God's audience... these new kids could use some learnin'!”
I think it’s God who limited Himself to a small audience, and the reason for that is to get a job done. This is not uncommon for Him to do something like this.
The MySpace kids have not taken the PFAL class, and have no built-in reason to do so and then even less a reason to master the written PFAL materials.
I aim at older grads because that’s the only group that has the possible motivation to finally obey Dr’s directives to focus strongly on the books and magazine articles. We older grads should have a sense of unfinished business with the ministry ending the way it did. Those of us who want better closure than “who did who” have chance to see what really went wrong in the ministry we had dedicated our lives to.
It’s only to this group, us older grads, that the loss of Dr’s last teaching can have any meaningful impact. It’s only us who had seen Dr’s ministry working well at one time, and it’s only us OLGs who gradually dropped the ball on studying the books, some less than others.
I’d love to see exceptions to this general rule, but in a practical sense I don’t expect many. The traditional tug of the KJV and other conventional versions is so strong even most OLGs faint at the thought of finding God’s Word outside the approval of the denominations. I don’t expect to find much courage to “buck the system” in the MySpace kids.
You wrote: “BTW if you would like to answer my question from several pages back I would still like to read it - either here or in a pm.”
Yes, I’m re-reading what I missed in back pages.
***
You wrote: “I highly suggest you do put the time into a research paper. You could do it in stages - "Pfal is Godbreathed" could be you first thesis in a grander scale piece.”
Can you imagine the difficulties in doing a similar research paper on “The Original Biblical Manuscripts Are God-breathed” ?
I’ve often brought this idea up, why do we believe the originals are God-breathed, but never get any takers. It is a staggeringly difficult subject to approach, isn’t it? Where would you begin in such a research paper.
Forget the research paper, how would you teach just one person, one willing meek person? Suppose they gave you all the time and attention needed, how would you prove such a thesis to them that the originals of the KJV is God-breathed?
***
I have no intention of ever trying to prove such a thesis as "PFAL is God-breathed."
Remember, my quoting Dr on his claims was not to prove the validity of those claims, it was just to prove our lack of paying sufficient attention to him.
I believe God will personally give abundant proof that they are on the right track to those OLGs who decide to obey and start mastering the PFAL material.
You wrote: “...IF all of this stuff is God-breathed, then it wouldn't be limited to OLGs. I think that's a limit you're putting on it. I think those young folks would probably be highly receptive to your work. And if here is where you'll bring out the 'to whom addressed' argument, how do you know that veepee's edict to "master PFAL" wasn't addressed to ALL grads? Just like the epistles are (allegedly) written to those of the grace administration yet we were taught they were addressed "to us" even though we weren't alive then... Wouldn't it make sense that vepee's edict was addressed to ALL grads... those alive at the time and those to come? IF it's God-breathed that's the only way it makes sense...You're limiting God's audience... these new kids could use some learnin'!”
I think it’s God who limited Himself to a small audience, and the reason for that is to get a job done. This is not uncommon for Him to do something like this.
The MySpace kids have not taken the PFAL class, and have no built-in reason to do so and then even less a reason to master the written PFAL materials.
BUT if PFAL is "God's Word re-issued"... doesn't it make sense that God would want 'His Children' to hear it? read it? have it?... don't you think that these new kids could use "God's Word re-issued?"
I aim at older grads because that’s the only group that has the possible motivation to finally obey Dr’s directives to focus strongly on the books and magazine articles. We older grads should have a sense of unfinished business with the ministry ending the way it did. Those of us who want better closure than “who did who” have chance to see what really went wrong in the ministry we had dedicated our lives to.
It’s only to this group, us older grads, that the loss of Dr’s last teaching can have any meaningful impact. It’s only us who had seen Dr’s ministry working well at one time, and it’s only us OLGs who gradually dropped the ball on studying the books, some less than others.
BUT isn't the point of veepee's last teaching that 'PFAL needs to be mastered' since it is "God's Word re-issued"??? Wouldn't the logical next step be to teach the new kids PFAL? and then help them master it? You are missing your calling here... to take the message to a new generation... if not you, who?
I’d love to see exceptions to this general rule, but in a practical sense I don’t expect many. The traditional tug of the KJV and other conventional versions is so strong even most OLGs faint at the thought of finding God’s Word outside the approval of the denominations. I don’t expect to find much courage to “buck the system” in the MySpace kids.
I think you're underestimating them. IF you truly believe these things you've 'said' to us then you're limiting God and not being a faithful steward of what He's shown to you. Shouldn't you at least try?
The new kids are so gung-ho and hungry... I think you're missing your calling... their ears are not deaf, they're wide open.
Wouldn't it be great to see folks take your message and run with it?
As you get your books open and begin mastering them I'll count on you to help me convince others to do the same.
That's my point Mike... you're limiting your audience and therefore missing your audience... the new kids are the ones that have "ears to hear and eyes to see"...
I don’t expect to find much courage to “buck the system” in the MySpace kids.
The reason why PFAL reached my generation the way it did back then. Back then we all knew something was horribly wrong and we were all for: "F***ing the System" - i.e. the religious establishment. Most of my generation today however have turned back and become a part of it - mainly because all our hero's failed us. It take's too much courage to be a hero. You're constantly setting yourself up as a target only to get shot down by somebody else trying to be the hero.
Yes, Hey, I see that too, that most of our compatriots have whimped out and gone back to join the system. It seems that all most Boomers think about these days is retirement and health insurance.
To get the ball rolling in PFAL mastery, though, it shouldn't take a large number of people. With the Internet, and unlimited long distance phone calling, we could do a lot with just ten people working those pages.
It matters to me, but for entertainment purposes only.
It's my perception from reading the standard KJV that most people most of the time are turned AWAY from the True God and are totally distracted like this BECAUSE OF the many, many other things going on out there.
I tend to think that if something is getting a lot of attention in the world it's often because it's quite opposite to God's position.
What's in it for you? Why are you concerned about my message? If you DID have any genuine concern it would translate to you getting your books open.
What do I have to lose? Time.
What do I stand to gain by staying here? One or two or three new OLG friends to meet here.
Why don't YOU go over there to MySpace and ask the young TWI people if they (or their parents) know anything about Dr's last teaching and it's getting lost? Show me the interest I'm missing.
Hey man... it's YOUR message... not mine... I would think that if you really believed all of this stuff you've been posting here (for years with 'no takers' so far) that you'd welcome a new audience in the hopes that some would believe.
Those kids at myspace.com are young and hungry... not old and jaded like us...
You do what you want... I just thought it to be a great "open opportunity" for you and your message from God... if you don't want to take advantage of it that's your call.
I forgot to ask you some time back: What makes you think I've not already contacted some of them? Actualy I have, a few of the older ones.
Well then why not get your message out there? People search for PFAL all of the time... like I said, there might be some lost souls out there looking for your message but too afraid to come to GSC...
Yesterday, in post #859 I wrote to you of proof and persuasion regarding our belief in the original ancient scriptures.
I noticed something today on the board by another poster, one not participating on this thread, that illustrates something we’ve discussed.
I had written in this thread:
“I have no intention of ever trying to prove such a thesis as "PFAL is God-breathed."
“Remember, my quoting Dr on his claims was not to prove the validity of those claims, it was just to prove our lack of paying sufficient attention to him.
“I believe God will personally give abundant proof that they are on the right track to those OLGs who decide to obey and start mastering the PFAL material.”
What I saw this morning is in the “About the Way” forum in the thread titled “The famous clergy meeting..., ...who was actually there?” This is what My3Cents wrote in Post #47 of that thread:
“Me, it made me wonder why I even thought the bible was ever was "the word". And I realized it was because some guy from Ohio (now dead) had told me it was. Other than that I had no evidence of same. So I decided to go back to my original (un)belief and reject the bible until I got more evidence. [update - to this day I never have].”
I’d like to hear what you, doojable say about this, as well as Tom Strange, What the Hey, dmiller, CM, Raf and a any others posting here lately. Just where do you get the idea that “the bible was ever was ‘the word’” to put it in My3Cents’ words. Got any evidence?
I think it’s good to think things like this through. I enjoyed an amazingly fortunate set of circumstances to have thought this all through around 1978. There was no ministry crisis raging when I did my thinking, like the one that WAS raging when My3Cents had to think it through, and unsuccessfully I might add.
But, there’s no crisis raging now. It should be possible to get real clear on WHY you all believe the scriptures, approximate as they be. Or DO you all believe?
You folks can get a much better view of what goes on in my thinking the deeper you try to answer this challenging question. Why believe the Bible?
I'd like to hear what you, doojable say about this, as well as Tom Strange, What the Hey, dmiller, CM, Raf and a any others posting here lately. Just where do you get the idea that "the bible was ever was 'the word'" to put it in My3Cents' words. Got any evidence?
If that's a 2 part question my answer is the same for both - the Bible.
I’d like to hear what you, doojable say about this, as well as Tom Strange, What the Hey, dmiller, CM, Raf and a any others posting here lately. Just where do you get the idea that “the bible was ever was ‘the word’” to put it in My3Cents’ words. Got any evidence?
I think it’s good to think things like this through. I enjoyed an amazingly fortunate set of circumstances to have thought this all through around 1978. There was no ministry crisis raging when I did my thinking, like the one that WAS raging when My3Cents had to think it through, and unsuccessfully I might add.
But, there’s no crisis raging now. It should be possible to get real clear on WHY you all believe the scriptures, approximate as they be. Or DO you all believe?
Mike, I believe that God's will is readily available through the Bible.
As for how I know it is the God-breathed "Word Of GOD" ( I know it isn't all original text.) I remember in PFAL when vpw showed how a word or phrase repeated and it just fit. I remember the word "artios" and it made total sense to me.
The big thing for me was "four Crucified. Now I know that many refute that teaching - and I'm not getting into it - but that was a big deal to me.
Basically, I have always believed - from my first class that even though we only have various translations from many many manuscripts of different ages - that God's Word was maintained because GOD watches over His Word. My visual analogy was that it was like a giant 10.000 piece puzzle. Even if I lost a few pieces the shape of that piece would be apparent because of the hole that was left by the pieces that I did have. In the same way = the unknown is made apparent by the known and the proven truth. Isn't this how vpw started?
The same is true for God's word. My point is that if what you are saying is really true. If the Pfal collaterals truly are the WORD of God it would fit with the Bible we hold in our hands - Just like Matthew fits with the OT and the writings of Peter fit with the writings of Micah. you should be able to show the accuracy - mathematical exactness and scientific precision.
Also, if it really is the word of God - PFAL should be profitable for anyone's learning - regardless of whether or not they are and OLG . So you should be looking for all who would listen to your message - Just like Paul went from preaching to Israel only to preaching to the Gentiles as well. ( Granted that was under God's directive.)
Without the Bible that you cast aside as not being the Word of God - because of the lack of originals, PFAL has no guts, no foundation, no hook to hang its hat on. Besides, VPW worked with this book, so you should not be so quick to cast it aside - just because of the very nature of "your message."
IMHO you have yet to show me anything that leads me to believe that I should listen to your message. Vpw was able to get even atheists to begin to take a look at the Bible. I am not rejecting your message because it involves PFAL - I do not accept it because it still has no moving, overwhelming, compelling truth for me to grasp and pursue.
You keep wanting to argue points that require me to go against everything that I believe and that I wholeheartedly believe that I was taught. I have dropped some things from PFAL - but the research principles are sound. Mainly I have not dropped the concept that the Bible holds God's word and God's truth - the truth more precious than diamonds and gold.
I’d like to hear what you, doojable say about this, as well as Tom Strange, What the Hey, dmiller, CM, Raf and a any others posting here lately. Just where do you get the idea that “the bible was ever was ‘the word’” to put it in My3Cents’ words. Got any evidence?
So this is what it's come down to Mike? The way you're going to defend your "PFAL is God Breathed" is by asking us to "prove" how we can prove "the Bible is God Breathed"?
Which, as you know, cannot be done... essentially they're both OPINIONS. But then again YOU are the only one that believes "PFAL is God Breathed"... and that's fine, that's your opinion.
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Mike
The discrediting you refer to is illusory.
My thesis has hardly been presented in total.
What has been presented has hardly been paid attention to.
I spend most of my time here responding to issues about me or ministry history. I’d prefer the latter but rather most of all prefer to get into the texts.
There’s some of that doojable commented on regarding BTMS’s Preface, so MY interests draw me in that direction.
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CM
There you go again. Blaming everyone else for your problems.
You are the one that keeps bringing yourself up and not pfal. These are the questions you choose to answer. Noone is forcing you to answer anything.
You want this to be about YOU and how great YOU are for coming up with this "thesis". You want to be served and worshipped. It ain't going to happen here!
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doojable
Mike,
You want to talk about PFAL.
What exactly do you want to discuss? Raf and others have said tht they feel there is anywhere from some to a lot of good in PFAL. ( OK, some have said there is no good - but I'm assuming that that is not something you want to discuss.)
Let's find a subject we can all DISCUSS - without name calling and backbiting. The art here is finding the happy medium ( not the one on the corner with the crystal ball - lol :) )
So, maybe if you don't mind, Raf or dmiller can start on a subject they find in PFAL that they agree with and we can start there with a civil discussion. At least it will be a beginning. You'd be meeting people where they are at. We are getting nowhere fast right now. I'm asking that we table the "God-breathed" of PFAL. I know that this is your thread - but if we can't agree to disagree on a subject and move on - well eventually there will be no discussion because a lot of us will take our toys and go home - not out of concession, but because its just not fun anymore. I am fast tiring of this banter - it does no good and has no profit. We are at a stalemate. If this were a game of chess we would congratulate each other on a good game and go have some beers - then start another game another day. (except I don't play chess - I'd be watching - and I don't drink beer - I'd be sipping a vodka and tonic.)
just a suggestion..
BTW if you would like to answer my question from several pages back I would still like to read it - either here or in a pm.
I highly suggest you do put the time into a research paper. You could do it in stages - "Pfal is Godbreathed" could be you first thesis in a grander scale piece.
Don't you think it would be easier if you werent fighting all these flash fires about integrity - when you're really trying to get to a bigger subject?
There is a quote I heard the other day that went somethinglike this:
"In any relationship there is a balance of power. The person with the most power is the person with the least commitment to the relationship because the person with the least commitment is always unwilling to compromise."
Think about it - it explains a lot about a lot of things.........
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Tom Strange
Mike... that "myspace" thing is really taking off these days... you could probably find a lot of folks over there that would buy into your thesis hook line and sinker...
Of course, I wouldn't want you to forsake us over here though...
Get the "myspace.com" thing up and running... we won't bother you there... we promise! (besides, you can delete our posts from there)... but with the "myspace.com" thing going we could really have a show!
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Mike
Tom Strange,
You forget, though, it's generally OLGs that I'm aimed at.
There don't look to be too many OLGs there.
The MySpace grads are grads of another class.
***
doojable,
I'd like to get into the dicotomy of the Natural-Factual versus the Spiritual-Divine in written PFAL.
You're so right about putting out fires. I've thought of retiring and putting out an OLG Newsletter, compete with AARP maybe.
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Tom Strange
Me in bold:
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Mike
Tom Strange,
You wrote: “...IF all of this stuff is God-breathed, then it wouldn't be limited to OLGs. I think that's a limit you're putting on it. I think those young folks would probably be highly receptive to your work. And if here is where you'll bring out the 'to whom addressed' argument, how do you know that veepee's edict to "master PFAL" wasn't addressed to ALL grads? Just like the epistles are (allegedly) written to those of the grace administration yet we were taught they were addressed "to us" even though we weren't alive then... Wouldn't it make sense that vepee's edict was addressed to ALL grads... those alive at the time and those to come? IF it's God-breathed that's the only way it makes sense...You're limiting God's audience... these new kids could use some learnin'!”
I think it’s God who limited Himself to a small audience, and the reason for that is to get a job done. This is not uncommon for Him to do something like this.
The MySpace kids have not taken the PFAL class, and have no built-in reason to do so and then even less a reason to master the written PFAL materials.
I aim at older grads because that’s the only group that has the possible motivation to finally obey Dr’s directives to focus strongly on the books and magazine articles. We older grads should have a sense of unfinished business with the ministry ending the way it did. Those of us who want better closure than “who did who” have chance to see what really went wrong in the ministry we had dedicated our lives to.
It’s only to this group, us older grads, that the loss of Dr’s last teaching can have any meaningful impact. It’s only us who had seen Dr’s ministry working well at one time, and it’s only us OLGs who gradually dropped the ball on studying the books, some less than others.
I’d love to see exceptions to this general rule, but in a practical sense I don’t expect many. The traditional tug of the KJV and other conventional versions is so strong even most OLGs faint at the thought of finding God’s Word outside the approval of the denominations. I don’t expect to find much courage to “buck the system” in the MySpace kids.
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Mike
doojable,
You wrote: “BTW if you would like to answer my question from several pages back I would still like to read it - either here or in a pm.”
Yes, I’m re-reading what I missed in back pages.
***
You wrote: “I highly suggest you do put the time into a research paper. You could do it in stages - "Pfal is Godbreathed" could be you first thesis in a grander scale piece.”
Can you imagine the difficulties in doing a similar research paper on “The Original Biblical Manuscripts Are God-breathed” ?
I’ve often brought this idea up, why do we believe the originals are God-breathed, but never get any takers. It is a staggeringly difficult subject to approach, isn’t it? Where would you begin in such a research paper.
Forget the research paper, how would you teach just one person, one willing meek person? Suppose they gave you all the time and attention needed, how would you prove such a thesis to them that the originals of the KJV is God-breathed?
***
I have no intention of ever trying to prove such a thesis as "PFAL is God-breathed."
Remember, my quoting Dr on his claims was not to prove the validity of those claims, it was just to prove our lack of paying sufficient attention to him.
I believe God will personally give abundant proof that they are on the right track to those OLGs who decide to obey and start mastering the PFAL material.
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Tom Strange
Me in Bold:
Wouldn't it be great to see folks take your message and run with it?
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Mike
Tom,
As you get your books open and begin mastering them I'll count on you to help me convince others to do the same.
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Tom Strange
That's my point Mike... you're limiting your audience and therefore missing your audience... the new kids are the ones that have "ears to hear and eyes to see"...
...and YOU would have control of the board!
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What The Hey
The reason why PFAL reached my generation the way it did back then. Back then we all knew something was horribly wrong and we were all for: "F***ing the System" - i.e. the religious establishment. Most of my generation today however have turned back and become a part of it - mainly because all our hero's failed us. It take's too much courage to be a hero. You're constantly setting yourself up as a target only to get shot down by somebody else trying to be the hero.
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Mike
Yes, Hey, I see that too, that most of our compatriots have whimped out and gone back to join the system. It seems that all most Boomers think about these days is retirement and health insurance.
To get the ball rolling in PFAL mastery, though, it shouldn't take a large number of people. With the Internet, and unlimited long distance phone calling, we could do a lot with just ten people working those pages.
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sirguessalot
just a thought...as yall plot and plan how yer gonna save the world again again again
just how possible might it be,
that there IS, has always been, and will always be
a vast vast vast vast vast vast amount of stuff going on
with people and places and truths outside of your personal experiences?
does it even matter any more?
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Mike
Todd,
It matters to me, but for entertainment purposes only.
It's my perception from reading the standard KJV that most people most of the time are turned AWAY from the True God and are totally distracted like this BECAUSE OF the many, many other things going on out there.
I tend to think that if something is getting a lot of attention in the world it's often because it's quite opposite to God's position.
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Tom Strange
Mike... what would be the harm? Your message is getting nowhere fast here...
...why not give them a shot? What do you have to lose?
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Mike
Tom,
What's in it for you? Why are you concerned about my message? If you DID have any genuine concern it would translate to you getting your books open.
What do I have to lose? Time.
What do I stand to gain by staying here? One or two or three new OLG friends to meet here.
Why don't YOU go over there to MySpace and ask the young TWI people if they (or their parents) know anything about Dr's last teaching and it's getting lost? Show me the interest I'm missing.
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Tom Strange
Hey man... it's YOUR message... not mine... I would think that if you really believed all of this stuff you've been posting here (for years with 'no takers' so far) that you'd welcome a new audience in the hopes that some would believe.
Those kids at myspace.com are young and hungry... not old and jaded like us...
You do what you want... I just thought it to be a great "open opportunity" for you and your message from God... if you don't want to take advantage of it that's your call.
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Mike
Tom,
I forgot to ask you some time back: What makes you think I've not already contacted some of them? Actualy I have, a few of the older ones.
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Tom Strange
Well then why not get your message out there? People search for PFAL all of the time... like I said, there might be some lost souls out there looking for your message but too afraid to come to GSC...
Pur it out there man! You have nothing to fear!
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Mike
Doojable,
Yesterday, in post #859 I wrote to you of proof and persuasion regarding our belief in the original ancient scriptures.
I noticed something today on the board by another poster, one not participating on this thread, that illustrates something we’ve discussed.
I had written in this thread:
“I have no intention of ever trying to prove such a thesis as "PFAL is God-breathed."
“Remember, my quoting Dr on his claims was not to prove the validity of those claims, it was just to prove our lack of paying sufficient attention to him.
“I believe God will personally give abundant proof that they are on the right track to those OLGs who decide to obey and start mastering the PFAL material.”
What I saw this morning is in the “About the Way” forum in the thread titled “The famous clergy meeting..., ...who was actually there?” This is what My3Cents wrote in Post #47 of that thread:
“Me, it made me wonder why I even thought the bible was ever was "the word". And I realized it was because some guy from Ohio (now dead) had told me it was. Other than that I had no evidence of same. So I decided to go back to my original (un)belief and reject the bible until I got more evidence. [update - to this day I never have].”
I’d like to hear what you, doojable say about this, as well as Tom Strange, What the Hey, dmiller, CM, Raf and a any others posting here lately. Just where do you get the idea that “the bible was ever was ‘the word’” to put it in My3Cents’ words. Got any evidence?
I think it’s good to think things like this through. I enjoyed an amazingly fortunate set of circumstances to have thought this all through around 1978. There was no ministry crisis raging when I did my thinking, like the one that WAS raging when My3Cents had to think it through, and unsuccessfully I might add.
But, there’s no crisis raging now. It should be possible to get real clear on WHY you all believe the scriptures, approximate as they be. Or DO you all believe?
You folks can get a much better view of what goes on in my thinking the deeper you try to answer this challenging question. Why believe the Bible?
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T-Bone
If that's a 2 part question my answer is the same for both - the Bible.
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doojable
Mike, I believe that God's will is readily available through the Bible.
As for how I know it is the God-breathed "Word Of GOD" ( I know it isn't all original text.) I remember in PFAL when vpw showed how a word or phrase repeated and it just fit. I remember the word "artios" and it made total sense to me.
The big thing for me was "four Crucified. Now I know that many refute that teaching - and I'm not getting into it - but that was a big deal to me.
Basically, I have always believed - from my first class that even though we only have various translations from many many manuscripts of different ages - that God's Word was maintained because GOD watches over His Word. My visual analogy was that it was like a giant 10.000 piece puzzle. Even if I lost a few pieces the shape of that piece would be apparent because of the hole that was left by the pieces that I did have. In the same way = the unknown is made apparent by the known and the proven truth. Isn't this how vpw started?
The same is true for God's word. My point is that if what you are saying is really true. If the Pfal collaterals truly are the WORD of God it would fit with the Bible we hold in our hands - Just like Matthew fits with the OT and the writings of Peter fit with the writings of Micah. you should be able to show the accuracy - mathematical exactness and scientific precision.
Also, if it really is the word of God - PFAL should be profitable for anyone's learning - regardless of whether or not they are and OLG . So you should be looking for all who would listen to your message - Just like Paul went from preaching to Israel only to preaching to the Gentiles as well. ( Granted that was under God's directive.)
Without the Bible that you cast aside as not being the Word of God - because of the lack of originals, PFAL has no guts, no foundation, no hook to hang its hat on. Besides, VPW worked with this book, so you should not be so quick to cast it aside - just because of the very nature of "your message."
IMHO you have yet to show me anything that leads me to believe that I should listen to your message. Vpw was able to get even atheists to begin to take a look at the Bible. I am not rejecting your message because it involves PFAL - I do not accept it because it still has no moving, overwhelming, compelling truth for me to grasp and pursue.
You keep wanting to argue points that require me to go against everything that I believe and that I wholeheartedly believe that I was taught. I have dropped some things from PFAL - but the research principles are sound. Mainly I have not dropped the concept that the Bible holds God's word and God's truth - the truth more precious than diamonds and gold.
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Tom Strange
So this is what it's come down to Mike? The way you're going to defend your "PFAL is God Breathed" is by asking us to "prove" how we can prove "the Bible is God Breathed"?
Which, as you know, cannot be done... essentially they're both OPINIONS. But then again YOU are the only one that believes "PFAL is God Breathed"... and that's fine, that's your opinion.
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