Check the artificial horizon, put your "wings" on the horizon bar so they just kiss the blue. Check your altitude. Check your airspeed's moving to the green arc. If the tach's in the red, pull the power back and don't forget carb heat - mixture full rich. Ok - use the turn and bank to execute a standard rate turn to a heading of 240 degrees. Climb to and maintain 4,500 ft. Current altimeter setting is 30.12 inches. You should be VFR in less than a minute. Squawk 7700 on your code transponder.
Whew! You gotta be so careful when you give instructions. Sometimes it's like trying to tell somebody how to tie a nectie over the phone.
I’m a little disoriented, but almost ready to post again.
***
From a quick reading of what I missed, it looks like you guys are almost wrapping up dmiller’s dilemma of the counterfeit seed. Am I reading it right?
Somebody, your idea of Adam’s progeny looks a lot like one of those preliminary proposals I made several days ago. I got sidetracked from working on doojable’s posts with some family issues, and now I have to get back to work since the weather improved.
Instead of trying to catch up with this issue, I may just totally bow out and get back to doojable’s posts and some other loose ends.
***
So dmiller, are you at all satisfied that at least MAYBE this is not such an intractable issue?
You wrote regarding some proposal here: “No, it wouldn't (if you follow the docvic line of thought).” But what IS the written line of thought on these issues? Without the books it’s the TVT line of thought that we’re stuck with.
I have to admit that I’m not at all up to speed on this subject. I honestly don’t know how much of my memory is accurate according to the books and how much is TVT.
The wrong seed stuff is just not a subject I ever looked into very deep. NOR do I want to very much. It’s not that it’s unimportant, heck, there are TWO full chapters on it with identical titles, so it’s got to fit into the big picture somehow, but it’s not the picture I’ve been working on these past 8 years.
Working the differences between those two chapters should be a rich, detail yielding project.
***
In the fellowship I attend we went through those two chapters and there were some eye opening discoveries, but it was already many years ago and I was going through a divorce at the time and far from able to pay much attention, let alone remember it.
Raf, I do vaguely remember some thing about something changing at Pentecost regarding this, but it’s gone now. I could ask our coordinator, but this topic is not even close to what we’re working on now so there’s precious little time to get into it there.
Anyway, this was never a bothersome subject to me, so I may just bow out, and work on other stuff.
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
In your “Pipe” thread you looked pretty gleeful at having me over a barrel.
That’s all right. Often our emotions cloud things. It happens to me too.
I just want to elaborate a little here on this thread, just to keep things easier for the moderators.
***
You wrote: “Shucks -- I can't argue with what docvic put in print, can I?? __ And if it is in print (like the way rag, pfal, etc., it has to be right, right?? __ This quote is from my U of L syllabus, printed by twi, for twi folks who couldn't go corps, and an admonition to those of us in twi (at the time), that they considered their *research* to be *up for approval* (at all times)”
Let me help clarify where the super special stuff is.
It’s the “...book and magazine form.” and it’s in the “...every word I have written to you...”
***
It’s NOT in Dr’s taped teachings, including Corps and University of Life, although there IS lots of truth there.
It’s NOT in the non-VPW books and magazine articles, although there IS lots of truth there.
It’s NOT in all the classes and seminars, although there IS lots of truth there.
There are LOTS of places in what TWI did “PUBLISH OR TEACH” that are NOT the final truth of the God-breathed Word.
***
Now look at the discalaimer:
WE DO NOT CLAIM THAT EVERYTHINGWE PUBLISH OR TEACH
IS THE FINAL TRUTH OF THE ORIGINAL "GOD-BREATHED" WORD.
***
PFAL page 83 says: "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..."
There are things he wrote that are not addressed to us, his class.
But to us, says TNDC page 34, "...every word I have written to you is true."
Also remember this from "The Way - Living In Love" pp. 178 by Elena Whiteside quoting Dr on “FINAL TRUTH” :
“I was praying. And I told Father that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.”
***
You wrote: “Shucks -- I can't argue with what docvic put in print, can I??
I can. It’s just not in VPW’s books and magazine articles I can’t. Although I’d think twice about arguing with many other things he said and printed. There are some things in this second category, though, where I might win if I did argue.
***
You wrote: “__ And if it is in print (like the way rag, pfal, etc., it has to be right, right??”
No. Only in VPW’s “book and magazine form” printed works addressed to us.
***
You wrote: “This quote is from my U of L syllabus, printed by twi, for twi folks who couldn't go corps, and an admonition to those of us in twi (at the time), that they considered their *research* to be *up for approval* (at all times)”
Yes. U of L is not on the super special list.
***
Now, do you see how that disclaimer does NOT say?:
I, VPW, DO NOT CLAIM THAT ANYTHING I PUBLISH OR TEACH
IS THE FINAL TRUTH OF THE ORIGINAL "GOD-BREATHED" WORD.
***
P.S. - Was I at all correct some posts above when I guessed that your question on counterfeit seed was somewhat answered? I still haven't had time to read it very closely. Maybe I too read into that what I wanted it to say.
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17These things I command you, that ye love one another.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
You of all people should understand the problems with taking things out of context, especially just for the purpose of making a point.
For your readers (although their is a danger of putting them to sleep), the complete context of the above quotation is as follows:
"If you by your free will accept Christ as your Savior and renew your mind according to The Word, you will find that every word I have written to you is true."
So, some guy gives me instructions on how to put a bike together. I follow the instructions, and it works. Does that make the author of those words special (especially when he got his words from the manufacturer to begin with?)
BTW PFAL P83 quote: Again, the use of a phrase out of context, but very pertqinent here:
Two sentences before the one you quoted, VP says: ""Search the scriptures..." It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Weirwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, "Search the scriptures..." because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God breathed....""
So, he says one thing (do not search VP's writings) and yet his writings are God Breathed, so we should?
I also wonder about the use of the word "necessarily"...so he himself is implying that some of his words are God breathed. I see a contradiction. (Search the scriptures, search me...???)
It was a question not a fabrication. Simply answer the question, that's all.
Here's a hint:
(Scripture is the Greek word = graphe, which means: anything written). Not everything written is God breathed. I highly doubt VPW's grocery list (or anyone elses) is/was God breathed.
If you by your free will accept Christ as your Savior and renew your mind according to The Word, you will find that every word I have written to you is true
It seemed good to me also; having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus.
...having had perfect understanding of all things. That phrase requires consideration. As LCM writes in R&E (p19) Luke must have had a perfect source of information to make such a statement. "Perfect" is the Greek word akribos which can be translated "divine", "exact", "precise", or "accurate". It is related to akris, a wrod used in Greek literature of climbing to the very "peak" or "summit" of a mountain. Every foothold and handhold must be taken with exact precision and forethought in climbing to the pinnacle, and that is the exactness connoted in akribos. ... "All things" in Luke 1:3 does not mean all without exception. No one could record all of it.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Now concerning the other things of John 21:25 which Jesus did that were never written about, were they or were they not also God breathed? It is quite evident something does not have to be written down in order to be God breathed, but not everthing written down is God - breathed.
Again from p19 of R&E LCM explains:
"All things" in Luke 1:3 means all things with distinction. All the truths and events that God disctinctivly desired Luke to record in presenting Jesus Christ as the Son of man, Luke wrote down in minute detail with divine understanding - not because Luke was perfect, but becasue he faithfully believed God to receive these truths by divine, accurate, and perfect revelation. ... "From the very first" anothen in Greek means "from above." The point is being made again that Luke's understanding was by divine revelation, "from above."
... "In order" in Luke 1:3 is the Greek word kathexes made up of two words: kata "according to"; and hexes "the next one". As a compound word it literally means "with method," "in a continual order." It indicates systematic progression.
The reason I took this from Rise and Expansion by LCM was to answer this question topoftheworld posted earlier:
So, some guy gives me instructions on how to put a bike together. I follow the instructions, and it works. Does that make the author of those words special (especially when he got his words from the manufacturer to begin with?)
It does not make the author of the instructions special (I'm assuming you mean perfect) any more than Luke writing in Luke 1:3 ... having had perfect understanding ... would make Luke special or perfect. The perfection lies here in the understanding, not in the individual themselves. The Gospel of Luke is exact and precise, as is Lukes second treatise, Acts. Both were written with divine exact and perfect understanding of the subject.
The author of the instructions of "how to put a bike together" must likewise have "perfect understanding of the subject". If they didn't have a perfect understanding of the subject, the instructions would not yield - "how to put a bike together". Now those instructions may not say anything about: "how to ride the bike" (as John 21:25 does not record the "other things" which Jesus did) but that does not indicate one can not ride the bike just because those instructions were not recorded.
Does everything have to be written down in order to be "God-breathed", and is everything written down "God-breathed"?. I don't think so. Even LCM writes: (from p20 of R&E)
...The point is being made again that Luke's understanding was by divine revelation, "from above." This is the reason why all the Word of God is exact; and for this reason the book of Acts is accurate in every regard to which it speaks - spiritually, ethically, chronologically, historically, and culturally; for this reason it is methodologically and strategically exact; and above all it is truthfully precise concerning the principles of the rise and expansion of the Christian Church in the first century, for it is "from above" given by the Author of Life Himself."
I think the acid test to whether or not PFAL is God-breathed or not, is that it must at least meet the same criterion. The question that one is faced with is - does it? I believe all the tools are there in PFAL to get to the "God-breathed" Word. But then again, they are only tools. If I tried to put a bike together with a hammer and didn't end up caring for the results, I probably did not following the authors instructions very closely or very precisely. I for one think that is the content of Mikes message all along - and nothing really more than that. He believes we tried to put that PFAL bike together with a hammer, and that was not the authors fault.
I think the acid test to whether or not PFAL is God-breathed is whether PFAL has the qualities it claims are characteristic of God-breathed work. It doesn't. And it doesn't claim to, unless you rip words from their contexts and apply them where they have no business being applied. When Wierwille writes "every word I have written to you is true," he is speaking in the immediate context of the instructions he's giving on speaking in tongues. He is not talking about every word from page one of PFAL to the final page of Order My Steps in Thy Word. You have to rip that clause from its context to get it to apply to everything he wrote. As top of the world noted quite clearly, VPW specifically and deliberately excluded his own writings from the God-breathed Word, and this thesis of Mike's is only possible if you twist PFAL so that it says the exact opposite of what's written on the page.
I think PFAL is quite valuable, though imperfect. Might even help you put a bike together, so to speak. I simply don't believe it is what Mike (and only Mike) claims it to be. PFAL doesn't claim it. VPW didn't claim it. Only one seriously deluded disciple claims it, and refuses, REFUSES to be swayed from that opinion. The result: not dialogue, but diatribe.
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Somebody
Mike! Mike!
Oh! I hope it's not too late!
Cessna 220 Whiskey Hotel
Check the artificial horizon, put your "wings" on the horizon bar so they just kiss the blue. Check your altitude. Check your airspeed's moving to the green arc. If the tach's in the red, pull the power back and don't forget carb heat - mixture full rich. Ok - use the turn and bank to execute a standard rate turn to a heading of 240 degrees. Climb to and maintain 4,500 ft. Current altimeter setting is 30.12 inches. You should be VFR in less than a minute. Squawk 7700 on your code transponder.
Whew! You gotta be so careful when you give instructions. Sometimes it's like trying to tell somebody how to tie a nectie over the phone.
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Mike
Sombody,
I'm down!
Trailing clouds of glory, I’m DOWN!
Boy oh boy! THAT was a close one!
I’m a little disoriented, but almost ready to post again.
***
From a quick reading of what I missed, it looks like you guys are almost wrapping up dmiller’s dilemma of the counterfeit seed. Am I reading it right?
Somebody, your idea of Adam’s progeny looks a lot like one of those preliminary proposals I made several days ago. I got sidetracked from working on doojable’s posts with some family issues, and now I have to get back to work since the weather improved.
Instead of trying to catch up with this issue, I may just totally bow out and get back to doojable’s posts and some other loose ends.
***
So dmiller, are you at all satisfied that at least MAYBE this is not such an intractable issue?
You wrote regarding some proposal here: “No, it wouldn't (if you follow the docvic line of thought).” But what IS the written line of thought on these issues? Without the books it’s the TVT line of thought that we’re stuck with.
I have to admit that I’m not at all up to speed on this subject. I honestly don’t know how much of my memory is accurate according to the books and how much is TVT.
The wrong seed stuff is just not a subject I ever looked into very deep. NOR do I want to very much. It’s not that it’s unimportant, heck, there are TWO full chapters on it with identical titles, so it’s got to fit into the big picture somehow, but it’s not the picture I’ve been working on these past 8 years.
Working the differences between those two chapters should be a rich, detail yielding project.
***
In the fellowship I attend we went through those two chapters and there were some eye opening discoveries, but it was already many years ago and I was going through a divorce at the time and far from able to pay much attention, let alone remember it.
Raf, I do vaguely remember some thing about something changing at Pentecost regarding this, but it’s gone now. I could ask our coordinator, but this topic is not even close to what we’re working on now so there’s precious little time to get into it there.
Anyway, this was never a bothersome subject to me, so I may just bow out, and work on other stuff.
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CM
to add to doojable's list-
1 Corinthians
Chapter 2
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
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CM
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Mike
dmiller,
In your “Pipe” thread you looked pretty gleeful at having me over a barrel.
That’s all right. Often our emotions cloud things. It happens to me too.
I just want to elaborate a little here on this thread, just to keep things easier for the moderators.
***
You wrote: “Shucks -- I can't argue with what docvic put in print, can I?? __ And if it is in print (like the way rag, pfal, etc., it has to be right, right?? __ This quote is from my U of L syllabus, printed by twi, for twi folks who couldn't go corps, and an admonition to those of us in twi (at the time), that they considered their *research* to be *up for approval* (at all times)”
Let me help clarify where the super special stuff is.
It’s the “...book and magazine form.” and it’s in the “...every word I have written to you...”
***
It’s NOT in Dr’s taped teachings, including Corps and University of Life, although there IS lots of truth there.
It’s NOT in the non-VPW books and magazine articles, although there IS lots of truth there.
It’s NOT in all the classes and seminars, although there IS lots of truth there.
There are LOTS of places in what TWI did “PUBLISH OR TEACH” that are NOT the final truth of the God-breathed Word.
***
Now look at the discalaimer:
WE DO NOT CLAIM THAT EVERYTHING WE PUBLISH OR TEACH
IS THE FINAL TRUTH OF THE ORIGINAL "GOD-BREATHED" WORD.
***
PFAL page 83 says: "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..."
There are things he wrote that are not addressed to us, his class.
But to us, says TNDC page 34, "...every word I have written to you is true."
Also remember this from "The Way - Living In Love" pp. 178 by Elena Whiteside quoting Dr on “FINAL TRUTH” :
“I was praying. And I told Father that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.”
***
You wrote: “Shucks -- I can't argue with what docvic put in print, can I??
I can. It’s just not in VPW’s books and magazine articles I can’t. Although I’d think twice about arguing with many other things he said and printed. There are some things in this second category, though, where I might win if I did argue.
***
You wrote: “__ And if it is in print (like the way rag, pfal, etc., it has to be right, right??”
No. Only in VPW’s “book and magazine form” printed works addressed to us.
***
You wrote: “This quote is from my U of L syllabus, printed by twi, for twi folks who couldn't go corps, and an admonition to those of us in twi (at the time), that they considered their *research* to be *up for approval* (at all times)”
Yes. U of L is not on the super special list.
***
Now, do you see how that disclaimer does NOT say?:
I, VPW, DO NOT CLAIM THAT ANYTHING I PUBLISH OR TEACH
IS THE FINAL TRUTH OF THE ORIGINAL "GOD-BREATHED" WORD.
***
P.S. - Was I at all correct some posts above when I guessed that your question on counterfeit seed was somewhat answered? I still haven't had time to read it very closely. Maybe I too read into that what I wanted it to say.
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CM
name one thing that he wrote that is truth
---
not only did he say "master" the books
he said to take it further
have you done that?
---
you are a disciple of vpw
not the Lord Jesus Christ
---
by their fruit you shall know them
Jesus Christ
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Mike
CM,
You wrote: "name one thing that he wrote that is truth"
I think I remember him writing that "CM is a super special guy."
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CM
Jesus Christ
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CM
that don't cut any ice with me
has anyone noticed how mike copies certain posters style of writing?
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Mike
CM,
Dr wrote:
PFAL page 83
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..."
TNDC page 34
"...every word I have written to you is true."
You wrote: "so this is what you think makes everything he wrote 'god-breathed'"
NO!
You've not been paying attention!
I've several times on this thread and on the "OK once and for all" thread written
that these quotes are NOT what makes me think SOME of what he wrote to be God-breathed.
You're wrong on the everything part.
You're wrong on the "so this is what you think" part.
Would you like to see proof of this?
Or would it matter?
Pay better attention or you're not going to get a passing grade in this class, young man!
Gee, I wish someone would call ME a young man! :(
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CM
oh i've paid attention very well mike
and you can stop with the condescending comments
it only makes you look even more foolish then you already are
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Mike
You'll look foolish if I post the proof of what you missed, even though your posts are probably splattered before and after it.
I'll spare you the embarrasment.
But you'll have to do extra work to pull up your grade.
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CM
your grades go down not up
you are a waste of time except to that to
learn more about what it is not
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CM
put it up
you don't scare me none
you got doctrines and commandments of men
that's all you got, plus a little extra darkness and hatred
of God and people
and i don't have to put that up
it's in all your posts
when will you want light?
i don't know
after you are dead
there is no choice
you will face the Lord himself
and your adversary
from the inside out
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CM
every word mike
every word mike
every word mike
let's see it
name one
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topoftheworld
Mike,
RE: "Every word I have written is true"-TNDC P34
You of all people should understand the problems with taking things out of context, especially just for the purpose of making a point.
For your readers (although their is a danger of putting them to sleep), the complete context of the above quotation is as follows:
"If you by your free will accept Christ as your Savior and renew your mind according to The Word, you will find that every word I have written to you is true."
So, some guy gives me instructions on how to put a bike together. I follow the instructions, and it works. Does that make the author of those words special (especially when he got his words from the manufacturer to begin with?)
BTW PFAL P83 quote: Again, the use of a phrase out of context, but very pertqinent here:
Two sentences before the one you quoted, VP says: ""Search the scriptures..." It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Weirwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, "Search the scriptures..." because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God breathed....""
So, he says one thing (do not search VP's writings) and yet his writings are God Breathed, so we should?
I also wonder about the use of the word "necessarily"...so he himself is implying that some of his words are God breathed. I see a contradiction. (Search the scriptures, search me...???)
Maybe I'm just not believing.
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What The Hey
The answer to that question I think lies entirely within this question - Would that be all without exception, or all with distinction?
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doojable
You got it topoftheworld!
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CM
another wierwille fabrication
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CM
so what-we are supposed to guess about which it is?
the scriptures are quite clear when it says all
they declare who the all is-ALL
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What The Hey
It was a question not a fabrication. Simply answer the question, that's all.
Here's a hint:
(Scripture is the Greek word = graphe, which means: anything written). Not everything written is God breathed. I highly doubt VPW's grocery list (or anyone elses) is/was God breathed.
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CM
ok wth...
1st off he needs to be seen as offered-Christ
and "every" is your all i presume
vp does distinguish the all-vaguely
giving room for interpretation i suppose
but to take this statement and go
to the points that mike has is ridiculous
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What The Hey
Luke 1:3
It seemed good to me also; having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus.
...having had perfect understanding of all things. That phrase requires consideration. As LCM writes in R&E (p19) Luke must have had a perfect source of information to make such a statement. "Perfect" is the Greek word akribos which can be translated "divine", "exact", "precise", or "accurate". It is related to akris, a wrod used in Greek literature of climbing to the very "peak" or "summit" of a mountain. Every foothold and handhold must be taken with exact precision and forethought in climbing to the pinnacle, and that is the exactness connoted in akribos. ... "All things" in Luke 1:3 does not mean all without exception. No one could record all of it.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Now concerning the other things of John 21:25 which Jesus did that were never written about, were they or were they not also God breathed? It is quite evident something does not have to be written down in order to be God breathed, but not everthing written down is God - breathed.
Again from p19 of R&E LCM explains:
"All things" in Luke 1:3 means all things with distinction. All the truths and events that God disctinctivly desired Luke to record in presenting Jesus Christ as the Son of man, Luke wrote down in minute detail with divine understanding - not because Luke was perfect, but becasue he faithfully believed God to receive these truths by divine, accurate, and perfect revelation. ... "From the very first" anothen in Greek means "from above." The point is being made again that Luke's understanding was by divine revelation, "from above."
... "In order" in Luke 1:3 is the Greek word kathexes made up of two words: kata "according to"; and hexes "the next one". As a compound word it literally means "with method," "in a continual order." It indicates systematic progression.
The reason I took this from Rise and Expansion by LCM was to answer this question topoftheworld posted earlier:
It does not make the author of the instructions special (I'm assuming you mean perfect) any more than Luke writing in Luke 1:3 ... having had perfect understanding ... would make Luke special or perfect. The perfection lies here in the understanding, not in the individual themselves. The Gospel of Luke is exact and precise, as is Lukes second treatise, Acts. Both were written with divine exact and perfect understanding of the subject.
The author of the instructions of "how to put a bike together" must likewise have "perfect understanding of the subject". If they didn't have a perfect understanding of the subject, the instructions would not yield - "how to put a bike together". Now those instructions may not say anything about: "how to ride the bike" (as John 21:25 does not record the "other things" which Jesus did) but that does not indicate one can not ride the bike just because those instructions were not recorded.
Does everything have to be written down in order to be "God-breathed", and is everything written down "God-breathed"?. I don't think so. Even LCM writes: (from p20 of R&E)
...The point is being made again that Luke's understanding was by divine revelation, "from above." This is the reason why all the Word of God is exact; and for this reason the book of Acts is accurate in every regard to which it speaks - spiritually, ethically, chronologically, historically, and culturally; for this reason it is methodologically and strategically exact; and above all it is truthfully precise concerning the principles of the rise and expansion of the Christian Church in the first century, for it is "from above" given by the Author of Life Himself."
I think the acid test to whether or not PFAL is God-breathed or not, is that it must at least meet the same criterion. The question that one is faced with is - does it? I believe all the tools are there in PFAL to get to the "God-breathed" Word. But then again, they are only tools. If I tried to put a bike together with a hammer and didn't end up caring for the results, I probably did not following the authors instructions very closely or very precisely. I for one think that is the content of Mikes message all along - and nothing really more than that. He believes we tried to put that PFAL bike together with a hammer, and that was not the authors fault.
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Raf
I think the acid test to whether or not PFAL is God-breathed is whether PFAL has the qualities it claims are characteristic of God-breathed work. It doesn't. And it doesn't claim to, unless you rip words from their contexts and apply them where they have no business being applied. When Wierwille writes "every word I have written to you is true," he is speaking in the immediate context of the instructions he's giving on speaking in tongues. He is not talking about every word from page one of PFAL to the final page of Order My Steps in Thy Word. You have to rip that clause from its context to get it to apply to everything he wrote. As top of the world noted quite clearly, VPW specifically and deliberately excluded his own writings from the God-breathed Word, and this thesis of Mike's is only possible if you twist PFAL so that it says the exact opposite of what's written on the page.
I think PFAL is quite valuable, though imperfect. Might even help you put a bike together, so to speak. I simply don't believe it is what Mike (and only Mike) claims it to be. PFAL doesn't claim it. VPW didn't claim it. Only one seriously deluded disciple claims it, and refuses, REFUSES to be swayed from that opinion. The result: not dialogue, but diatribe.
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