You all had might as well just get a big vat of mud and sell tickets and beer! ( oh and us wimmen will have to don skimpy swimwear)
This is embarassing!
Mike - Saying in one book that other books were used to gather information for yet a second book - that's does NOT negate the fact that WHOLE sections of writing were lifted from the pages of those other books. ( besides - I hardly ever met anyone who read that book - so to the young person who gets handed the collaterals and signs a green card - that's it. Sources are supposed to be cited IN THE SAME WORK that they are used in ( or lifted to write.)
If you're going to used the revelation theory of PFAL you really have to give that credit to GOD and the first men who wrote the information.
Oh and I have heard that DR himself denied your theory. Paul the apostle never denied that he was told to write the gospels.
And - there are ways to show on paper that one makes NO money at all - yet gets literally thousands. People do it all the time. so Dr making only $100 a week or month - that's not too impressive - he had much more.
Simlpe guy - you cut right to the matter again. I tried to with sarcasm - but that's not the right route.
God called us and continues to call people. He calls people to accept His son as their Saviour.
He called people before PFAL and he has called millions since. Millions have found their way to God without the PFAL class. Just because I (and many of us here at GSC found solice there for a time does not make that the only way. (no pun intended)
Ex and Raf - to Mike's credit - he has never treated me with misogyny. Now there is ANOTHER member here that I won't mention ( Haven't "seen" him in a while) that is guilty of that - at least here on this site....
Revelation 2:1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Just once I'd like to see one of these PFAL threads taken for what it is--- a class.
---one of thousands of classes on the bible--There are probably 5 or 10 introductory classes of some form or another going on in churches in your town right now, many of them are no doubt as good or better than PFAL in the overall help that they offer people.
How does your posting with that question of yours glorify Christ?
Again, your wording makes you sound like another poster I’ve discussed these things with. Most people would say “glorify God” but you used an unusual phrase. Are you SURE we haven’t discussed these things before, like in a Private Topic in the old software last year?
How do you go about glorifying Christ in your life?
I expect to see Christ glorified GREATLY for any posters or readers here who obey Dr’s final instructions and get those books open.
***
dmiller,
You wrote: “No --- I am not making up rules. __ Go to any university (I assume there is one there in San Diego -- maybe not), and ask any professor how it works.”
I had just written to you that the Way was not a University, nor a brute marketplace. Then you tell me to seek out the rules at a University!
You ARE making up the rules by insisting that Dr’s citation’s pass the usual University regulations. I say “No!”
Dr ministered those books to us grads the way GOD told him to do it, not the way a local University would tell him. I’m glad, too.
You are making up rules for Dr to follow (like conforming to university citation regulations) and then complaining he broke them.
Thank you for standing up for me when you wrote: “Ex and Raf - to Mike's credit - he has never treated me with misogyny.”
I have had some very good discussions with women posters here, often behind the scenes. I thank God for women every day. Viva la differance!
***
You wrote: “If you're going to used the revelation theory of PFAL you really have to give that credit to GOD and the first men who wrote the information.”
Dr did give that credit, both to God and to his teachers, just not in the University approved format. He did this often and in many ways. The quote from “The Way – Living In Love” I’ve been splashing in dmiller’s face is just one such giving of credit.
***
You wrote: “Oh and I have heard that DR himself denied your theory. Paul the apostle never denied that he was told to write the gospels.”
Where did you hear that? I chase all such clues down.
I have a hunch you’re talking about what he said in “The Hope” about how he never placed himself in the shoes of the biblical apostles, or something like that.
***
You wrote: “And - there are ways to show on paper that one makes NO money at all - yet gets literally thousands. People do it all the time. so Dr making only $100 a week or month - that's not too impressive - he had much more.”
Sure he had access to much more, but did he have the TIME to enjoy it in relaxation, as I posted. He worked more hours than most of us, and for a longer string of years too. I remember driving past the farm and seeing his office lights on late into every evening when he was there. The $100 per week was common knowledge. I lived with the man who assisted Uncle Harry in the Treasurer’s Office and he saw all the checks. Money was not what drove him, because he could have made more, much more.
Sorry to be so suspicious, but your whole demeanor, your method, and your use of that phrase, are very much like another poster's here.
It occurred to me that you said we’ve never “talked.” Well, this particular poster I have in mind and I have also never "talked" in a verbal conversation, just “typed” conversations. So, from your answer, you COULD still be this person I have in mind.
***
But I've also seen this phenomenon before, where Corps people will behave very similarly to each other, having learned together certain similar phrases and strategies for dealing with people.
Maybe you were in the same Corps with this other poster.
He too claims to be a simple guy, uses the relatively unique phrase “glorify Christ,” and tends to over reduce everything to the spiritual like I’ve complained of you.
Also, like you he walked right up to me out of the blue, as if he had enough of the answers and enough of an operating hotline with the Father to “minister to the situation,” regardless of the complicating details I had to share with him.
Truth is simple, but untangling a huge mess of error can be quite complicated for a time.
***
We glorify Christ as we become the same Word he became. This is a 5-senses project in the early stages and then later becomes spiritual. Dr taught us in the AC that “What you can know by your 5-senses God expects you to know.”
How can Christ be glorified if we do not do the physical work get our physical minds lined up with the Word? This thread can explore that physical activity of reading and learning what God wants us to know.
17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
That's another thing that other Corps poster (and many other Corps people too) would do: try and stage a spiritual confrontation, then a dramatic walkout with the last word if I didn't conform.
It reminds me of a old former girlfriend who would call me on the phone just to have the pleasure of hanging up on me if I didn't conform to her wishes.
If you wanty to have a deep conversation with me, please leave your Corps tactics playbook behind and come back to PFAL with me and any other few grads who are willing to line up with the revelations God taught Dr and then Dr taught us IN PRINT!
So, Mike, using VPW's words, what did he mean when he said "life more abundant" ?
Mark,
I vaguely recall a tape teaching from 1973 where VP said that one is living a more than abundant life, when one has good health, clothing, food, shelter, ... and no fear, no worry, no anxiety, etc.
He added something else from Jesus Christ is not God.... I don't have the book in front if me, but he wrote something like "that life that is eternal, and therefore, more than abundant."
So I think he changed his meaning over time and the last one was from JCING.
Mark, it seems there is no definition of "more than abundant" from PFAL, .... the closest I see to a definition is in the introduction on Page 4, where VP writes:
This book, Power for Abundant Living, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived and which He came to make available to believers as it is revealed in the Word of God.
Those who understand English already know that I've never called PFAL "idolatrous pigswill." It's a phrase I reserve for Mike's posts.
Raf say's: Mike's posts="idolatrous pigswill"
Mike's posts say: Master PFAL.
Out of consequece Raf is therefore saying: PFAL="idolatrous pigswill". Coming from someone pre-occupied with errors in PFAL, no one has to understand English to comprehend what your position is. I may not agree with all of Mike's conclusions regarding PFAL, but I certainly have no misunderstanding exactly what Mike's position on PFAL is. I really can't say the same for you, as you have started threads on the errors in PFAL but now have the audacity to claim you never called PFAL "idolatrous pigswill". Matthew 12:33
You have to master the material yourself first before you can convince others you can speak authoritatively about it. At least I'm convinced Mike has done that much or attempting to do that much. His mastery of it (or your mastery of it) however is completely another subject.
I see that reading comprehension is not your only problem, but basic mathematics and logic as well.
Mike's posts=idolatrous pigswill.
Mike's post=Master PFAL (I'd argue this point, but let's accept it for the purpose of your elementary school education).
THEREFORE: "Master PFAL" = "idolatrous pigswill." Note: it does not say "the contents of PFAL=idolatrous pigswill." It says "the message propounded by Mike that PFAL is something that must be mastered because it is THE Word of God, without contradictions and without errors, and VPW taught things Jesus Christ had to learn, and the earth shook where VPW walked, and his victims are less innocent than he because they failed to follow his last/lust instructions=idolatrous pigswill."
I have never called PFAL idolatrous pigswill. I can't help it if you can't understand that, but I can refer you to your nearest grammar school. I believe these topics are covered in grade four, grade five at the latest.
Have you thought of adding to your argumentation devices of insulting phrases a scowling nasty face for you avatar picture? Maybe you’ll find me at a weak moment and together the insults and the scowl will convince me to embrace your god.
***
oldiesman,
I've not thoroughly worked this topic of degrees and definitions of abundance, otherwise I’d post what I have. However, I have seen a changing, progressing definition for abundance in Dr’s writings. That slight progression in the PFAL book passages I already posted reflects this.
We have seen many such patterns, and we believe they reflect a progression of what God was teaching Dr, and a progression in what abundance was being made available to us.
From the AC’s 16 keys to walking in the spirit, when a revelation changes (see this: I’m treating PFAL as revelation and using the same keys to work it as the KJV.) that is an indication that the circumstances have changed. It’s revelation that is given twice and established that cannot change.
From the patterns of changing definitions and changing phraseology, we see that some very big changes occurred around 1977 and then again in 1982. Sometimes the changes are in slight wording shifts that occurred when an early book chapters were “re-printed” in the magazine a few years later, or vice versa with early articles later being put into GMWD and OMSW.
These kinds of changes hardly anyone ever noticed. I remember socks posting that he notice these changes, but was never given an answer as to why. I think the time had not come for getting into these kinds of details when he asked, though. We are carefully examining all of these changes, one at a time, but we just haven’t gotten to “abundance” yet.
Some of these changes in wording reflect God’s heart to have us understand him spiritually, on his terms, instead of on our own human flesh terms. Rising up to meet the lord in the air seems to be the same process.
If you are claiming PFAL mastery="idolatrous pigswill" then re-read the last line of my previous post. I just stated:
You have to master the material yourself first before you can convince others you can speak authoritatively about it. At least I'm convinced Mike has done that much or attempting to do that much. His mastery of it (or your mastery of it) however is completely another subject.
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Raf
Those who understand English already know that I've never called PFAL "idolatrous pigswill." It's a phrase I reserve for Mike's posts.
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doojable
You all had might as well just get a big vat of mud and sell tickets and beer! ( oh and us wimmen will have to don skimpy swimwear)
This is embarassing!
Mike - Saying in one book that other books were used to gather information for yet a second book - that's does NOT negate the fact that WHOLE sections of writing were lifted from the pages of those other books. ( besides - I hardly ever met anyone who read that book - so to the young person who gets handed the collaterals and signs a green card - that's it. Sources are supposed to be cited IN THE SAME WORK that they are used in ( or lifted to write.)
If you're going to used the revelation theory of PFAL you really have to give that credit to GOD and the first men who wrote the information.
Oh and I have heard that DR himself denied your theory. Paul the apostle never denied that he was told to write the gospels.
And - there are ways to show on paper that one makes NO money at all - yet gets literally thousands. People do it all the time. so Dr making only $100 a week or month - that's not too impressive - he had much more.
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GarthP2000
..... and the beat goes on (doooo do do do), and the beat goes on ..........
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A simple guy
How is Christ getting glorified in all of this?
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doojable
Simlpe guy - you cut right to the matter again. I tried to with sarcasm - but that's not the right route.
God called us and continues to call people. He calls people to accept His son as their Saviour.
He called people before PFAL and he has called millions since. Millions have found their way to God without the PFAL class. Just because I (and many of us here at GSC found solice there for a time does not make that the only way. (no pun intended)
Ex and Raf - to Mike's credit - he has never treated me with misogyny. Now there is ANOTHER member here that I won't mention ( Haven't "seen" him in a while) that is guilty of that - at least here on this site....
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CM
Christ at work....
Revelation 2:1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
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mstar1
thats a reasonable question simple guy.
It points to the end results of PFAL doesn't it?
Just once I'd like to see one of these PFAL threads taken for what it is--- a class.
---one of thousands of classes on the bible--There are probably 5 or 10 introductory classes of some form or another going on in churches in your town right now, many of them are no doubt as good or better than PFAL in the overall help that they offer people.
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Mike
A simple guy,
How does your posting with that question of yours glorify Christ?
Again, your wording makes you sound like another poster I’ve discussed these things with. Most people would say “glorify God” but you used an unusual phrase. Are you SURE we haven’t discussed these things before, like in a Private Topic in the old software last year?
How do you go about glorifying Christ in your life?
I expect to see Christ glorified GREATLY for any posters or readers here who obey Dr’s final instructions and get those books open.
***
dmiller,
You wrote: “No --- I am not making up rules. __ Go to any university (I assume there is one there in San Diego -- maybe not), and ask any professor how it works.”
I had just written to you that the Way was not a University, nor a brute marketplace. Then you tell me to seek out the rules at a University!
You ARE making up the rules by insisting that Dr’s citation’s pass the usual University regulations. I say “No!”
Dr ministered those books to us grads the way GOD told him to do it, not the way a local University would tell him. I’m glad, too.
You are making up rules for Dr to follow (like conforming to university citation regulations) and then complaining he broke them.
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Mike
doojable,
Thank you for standing up for me when you wrote: “Ex and Raf - to Mike's credit - he has never treated me with misogyny.”
I have had some very good discussions with women posters here, often behind the scenes. I thank God for women every day. Viva la differance!
***
You wrote: “If you're going to used the revelation theory of PFAL you really have to give that credit to GOD and the first men who wrote the information.”
Dr did give that credit, both to God and to his teachers, just not in the University approved format. He did this often and in many ways. The quote from “The Way – Living In Love” I’ve been splashing in dmiller’s face is just one such giving of credit.
***
You wrote: “Oh and I have heard that DR himself denied your theory. Paul the apostle never denied that he was told to write the gospels.”
Where did you hear that? I chase all such clues down.
I have a hunch you’re talking about what he said in “The Hope” about how he never placed himself in the shoes of the biblical apostles, or something like that.
***
You wrote: “And - there are ways to show on paper that one makes NO money at all - yet gets literally thousands. People do it all the time. so Dr making only $100 a week or month - that's not too impressive - he had much more.”
Sure he had access to much more, but did he have the TIME to enjoy it in relaxation, as I posted. He worked more hours than most of us, and for a longer string of years too. I remember driving past the farm and seeing his office lights on late into every evening when he was there. The $100 per week was common knowledge. I lived with the man who assisted Uncle Harry in the Treasurer’s Office and he saw all the checks. Money was not what drove him, because he could have made more, much more.
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A simple guy
I answered that question once Mike. Perhaps you should reread the content of what I said to avoid the confusion.
My question was asked of no one in particular.
As far as how I worded my question, I find it hard to believe that only one person would ever make a statement like that.
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Mike
A simple guy,
Sorry to be so suspicious, but your whole demeanor, your method, and your use of that phrase, are very much like another poster's here.
It occurred to me that you said we’ve never “talked.” Well, this particular poster I have in mind and I have also never "talked" in a verbal conversation, just “typed” conversations. So, from your answer, you COULD still be this person I have in mind.
***
But I've also seen this phenomenon before, where Corps people will behave very similarly to each other, having learned together certain similar phrases and strategies for dealing with people.
Maybe you were in the same Corps with this other poster.
He too claims to be a simple guy, uses the relatively unique phrase “glorify Christ,” and tends to over reduce everything to the spiritual like I’ve complained of you.
Also, like you he walked right up to me out of the blue, as if he had enough of the answers and enough of an operating hotline with the Father to “minister to the situation,” regardless of the complicating details I had to share with him.
Truth is simple, but untangling a huge mess of error can be quite complicated for a time.
***
We glorify Christ as we become the same Word he became. This is a 5-senses project in the early stages and then later becomes spiritual. Dr taught us in the AC that “What you can know by your 5-senses God expects you to know.”
How can Christ be glorified if we do not do the physical work get our physical minds lined up with the Word? This thread can explore that physical activity of reading and learning what God wants us to know.
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Raf
The glorification of Christ is not on Mike's agenda.
It's all about obeying Dr, being humble to Dr, being meek to Dr. Christ is an afterthought.
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Mike
Raf,
My bet is on the text of PFAL being the revealed mind of Christ.
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Raf
My bet is on the Seahawks winning the Super Bowl this year. I'd say our chances are about equal.
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CM
yeah...lol..in some books
"we have the mind of Christ"
written long before p@(%*ingfl
once again you *%^#* on the first century believers
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CM
17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
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A simple guy
This is tedious, Mike.
Have fun with your forum.
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Mike
A simple guy,
That's another thing that other Corps poster (and many other Corps people too) would do: try and stage a spiritual confrontation, then a dramatic walkout with the last word if I didn't conform.
It reminds me of a old former girlfriend who would call me on the phone just to have the pleasure of hanging up on me if I didn't conform to her wishes.
If you wanty to have a deep conversation with me, please leave your Corps tactics playbook behind and come back to PFAL with me and any other few grads who are willing to line up with the revelations God taught Dr and then Dr taught us IN PRINT!
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oldiesman
Mark,
I vaguely recall a tape teaching from 1973 where VP said that one is living a more than abundant life, when one has good health, clothing, food, shelter, ... and no fear, no worry, no anxiety, etc.
He added something else from Jesus Christ is not God.... I don't have the book in front if me, but he wrote something like "that life that is eternal, and therefore, more than abundant."
So I think he changed his meaning over time and the last one was from JCING.
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oldiesman
Mark, it seems there is no definition of "more than abundant" from PFAL, .... the closest I see to a definition is in the introduction on Page 4, where VP writes:
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What The Hey
Raf say's: Mike's posts="idolatrous pigswill"
Mike's posts say: Master PFAL.
Out of consequece Raf is therefore saying: PFAL="idolatrous pigswill". Coming from someone pre-occupied with errors in PFAL, no one has to understand English to comprehend what your position is. I may not agree with all of Mike's conclusions regarding PFAL, but I certainly have no misunderstanding exactly what Mike's position on PFAL is. I really can't say the same for you, as you have started threads on the errors in PFAL but now have the audacity to claim you never called PFAL "idolatrous pigswill". Matthew 12:33
You have to master the material yourself first before you can convince others you can speak authoritatively about it. At least I'm convinced Mike has done that much or attempting to do that much. His mastery of it (or your mastery of it) however is completely another subject.
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Raf
What the Hey,
I see that reading comprehension is not your only problem, but basic mathematics and logic as well.
Mike's posts=idolatrous pigswill.
Mike's post=Master PFAL (I'd argue this point, but let's accept it for the purpose of your elementary school education).
THEREFORE: "Master PFAL" = "idolatrous pigswill." Note: it does not say "the contents of PFAL=idolatrous pigswill." It says "the message propounded by Mike that PFAL is something that must be mastered because it is THE Word of God, without contradictions and without errors, and VPW taught things Jesus Christ had to learn, and the earth shook where VPW walked, and his victims are less innocent than he because they failed to follow his last/lust instructions=idolatrous pigswill."
I have never called PFAL idolatrous pigswill. I can't help it if you can't understand that, but I can refer you to your nearest grammar school. I believe these topics are covered in grade four, grade five at the latest.
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Mike
Raf,
Have you thought of adding to your argumentation devices of insulting phrases a scowling nasty face for you avatar picture? Maybe you’ll find me at a weak moment and together the insults and the scowl will convince me to embrace your god.
***
oldiesman,
I've not thoroughly worked this topic of degrees and definitions of abundance, otherwise I’d post what I have. However, I have seen a changing, progressing definition for abundance in Dr’s writings. That slight progression in the PFAL book passages I already posted reflects this.
We have seen many such patterns, and we believe they reflect a progression of what God was teaching Dr, and a progression in what abundance was being made available to us.
From the AC’s 16 keys to walking in the spirit, when a revelation changes (see this: I’m treating PFAL as revelation and using the same keys to work it as the KJV.) that is an indication that the circumstances have changed. It’s revelation that is given twice and established that cannot change.
From the patterns of changing definitions and changing phraseology, we see that some very big changes occurred around 1977 and then again in 1982. Sometimes the changes are in slight wording shifts that occurred when an early book chapters were “re-printed” in the magazine a few years later, or vice versa with early articles later being put into GMWD and OMSW.
These kinds of changes hardly anyone ever noticed. I remember socks posting that he notice these changes, but was never given an answer as to why. I think the time had not come for getting into these kinds of details when he asked, though. We are carefully examining all of these changes, one at a time, but we just haven’t gotten to “abundance” yet.
Some of these changes in wording reflect God’s heart to have us understand him spiritually, on his terms, instead of on our own human flesh terms. Rising up to meet the lord in the air seems to be the same process.
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What The Hey
If you are claiming PFAL mastery="idolatrous pigswill" then re-read the last line of my previous post. I just stated:
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