Haven't you figured it out that your philosophy is not going to make even the slightest dent in my armor?
If you expect IN ANY WAY to convince me to leave PFAL you are dead wrong. If you are on this thread to change my mind you are in the wrong place and wasting your time.
But I think you’re on this thread for your own ego. You come where the traffic is to play mystic. Your ego can’t stand the loneliness of starting your own thread to spout your poetry so you come here. It’s cheap.
You have earned zero respect from me. The revelations God gave to Dr and he put into PFAL took 27 years to earn my total respect, and there was much good fruit that did spring from span of time.
Come back in 27 years and show me the great blessings you have generated for thousands of people with your philosophy and you might be able to get my attention and a modicum of respect.
I have no use for your mere spouting. You're playing a role that's common. I've spent a lot of time with mystics and pontificators just like you, and that kind of counterfeit is too easy for me to spot to even make it interesting. Figuratively, there's one of you on every street corner. There is only one PFAL class; there's nothing like it in the world. It's from the True God and you words are not.
I had written regarding dmiller’s AC: “Here’s a good possibility: Adam trained the animals with his personality stamped into them. Naming the animals meant far more than getting out a Dymo label maker and putting “Leo” on the lion’s collar. Adam trained them to behave the way he wanted them to behave. Adam put his mark in them.”
You wrote; “Mike... Shirley you're not serious...”
Whatsamatta, you own stock in Dymo Inc. or something?
But seriously, we were taught in Orientalisms (did you ever take it?) that when we see the word “name” in the Bible it meant a whole lot more in that Eastern Bible lands culture than the same word means to us today.
yes, I took it... why don't you cite "what it means" if you're going to reference it?
But that aside, didn’t you see the context that my passage on Adam naming the animals sits in? I can point to four spots in that context that should have answered your question. Context is a big deal. Want me to point out those four spots?
sure, go ahead
***
You wrote: “You're welcome to disagree... but PFAL was not the author of the signs, miracles and wonders. Why are you insistent on giving PFAL the glory over God?”
I still disagree. It was PFAL that wound us up. It was previous grads of PFAL who supported us in learning to think that way, that God is good and that He empowers us.
do you think that worship of PFAL (and therefore veepee) might've had something to do with the collapse of TWI?
You ask “Why are you insistent on giving PFAL the glory over God?” but you omit that I accredit PFAL to God. God inspired PFAL, PFAL helped us to believe, God gets the credit.
If I thought that PFAL was NOT of God, and that PFAL produced the signs, miracles and wonders, THEN I’d be robbing god of the glory. But I thank God that He brought forth PFAL and that it helped us greatly.
Most (if not all) of your time is spent promoting PFAL and veepee, usually you only promote God when pressed on the issue
***
You wrote: “I have no use for ‘a lot of essay information’ nor did I ask you to write any. All I'm asking you to type is one word for each statement listed: OPINION or TRUTH. Heck, if you want just type ‘O’ or ‘T’.”
I’m not surprised that you have no use for the an essay’s worth of information. Your eschewing of the context for your pet quotes testifies to this, and your skipping the context of my post on Adam and the animals testifies to this. Your eagerness now for my labels leads me again to suspect that you are not in the least interested in the details of WHY each item of pet quotes would get each label, which is what an essay would convey.
Mike, the reason I "have no use" for your essays is because you spend a lot of time typing a lot of words that end up going around in circles and never answering whatever questions were posed. If you ever got around to "straight answers" then maybe I'd be interested, but your history (since you're so keen on citing history) is that you don't ever answer, you dodge and avoid leading me (and others I think) to doubt the sincerity of your discourse.
I have no use for your contextless, detailless curiosity being satisfied. If you want to discuss things and examine ideas, I do like that. I suggest you take that course.
Mike, that's exactly why I ask about those statements of yours. Because they're statements you've made that are so far beyond anything else anyone else has ever come up with that I (and others) are interested in the basis of those statements... but you never answer the questions about them... you only scold us for being so naive and not 'mastering' the material. That, coupled with your reluctance to 'stand by' your statements, leads me to think that you're afraid of them.
***
I wrote almost the same thing before and you quoted me thusly: “Why don’t you just follow the discussion and focus on the proper target, PFAL text, and not so much on me and my text? I don’t consider your request to be a useful one. It’s a distraction.”
I'm focussing on what YOU CLAIM the PFAL text IS and SAYS.
You responded with: “Because there's a credibility issue with you Mike. IF you claim these statements are "God's Truth" there's really no more need for discussion. If you claim they're your OPINION, well then maybe there's room for discussion.”
This saddens me, Tom.
Why would there be no discussion if a label were to be “God's Truth?”
umm... because it was "God's Truth" and therefore not in question? At least that's how you 'present' your posts to us... like "How dare we question what you're saying, it's God's Truth!" but you've not showed us the "why" or the "how" you got to that point, so therefore we question.
I know that it’s not because you will then meekly accept it.
No... you don't... you merely assume.
What’s the matter with someone speaking God's Truth? Are you of the opinion that no one can do that? Do you believe in the 9 manifestations? Do you believe in God? just where are YOU coming from, Tom.
There you go putting words in my mouth again Mike. I didn't say that or allude to that. This would be a good example of your 'essay method' mentioned above. Pulling something out of thin air.
If you are going to warn readers about me, shouldn’t you be open and honest about your beliefs? What do you believe? Who is your God?
If you think that by my letting folks know 'where you're coming from' is "warning them" doesn't that speak to a little bit of paranoia on your part? ...or maybe that you really are trying to mislead folks?
***
You wrote: “Mike, what happened to your attempt to be polite?”
Being polite doesn’t mean being submissive. You must earn my respect, and you’re not starting from scratch, but from in the hole. Relax your program of discrediting me, focus on the discussion at hand, and you have a chance of earning my respect. It will take time. You have a lot of impolite posts to make up for.
I'll ask you for about the five millionth time... "How is it 'discrediting' you if I'm just asking you about statements that you've made?
***
You wrote to doojable: Dooj, IF they're his OPINIONS, then it doesn't matter... And I guess it really doesn't matter either if he thinks they're "God's Truth"... but it would be nice: 1) to know where he's coming from and 2) if Mike would quit treating us like dirt because we don't believe the way he does.”
Tom, you started it. You and many others treated me like dirt EVEN BEFORE I started posting. Want me to dig up the posts and prove it? I was the subject of ridicule here MONTHS before I ever made one post. I don’t remember if you participated in that round, but you do. I do remember in my early months of posting that you were right there with a mob of posters trying to wear me down and insult me with all sorts of junk. I can find those posts if you deny this.
Start digging then (just be careful that the hole doesn't cave in on top of you. Mike... how in the heck could I 'subject you to ridicule' before you started posting here? IF you'd only just 'kept it simple' you'd notice that you have been here six more months than I have. I never 'heard' of you before I ran into you on the boards. And all I've ever done is ask you (in effect) "where did you come up with that?"... All you've ever done to me is reprove and rebuke me in a condescending and mean manner because I dare to question you. I'll admit that I got quite heated at times in the beginning of our 'relationship' because I took offense to the way you treated me (and others) because I dared to question you about your beliefs regarding PFAL. ...but I was only responding in kind...
I have wonderful times here discussing things with people who disagree with me. I do it in PMs and e-mails too. Most people disagree with me, but only some treat me with contempt and disrespect. It will take time for you to re-make yourself in my eyes. Discussing the topic at hand (and not me) is the only way you can do this.
Have you ever wondered Mike why you seem to be the receipient of so much "contempt and disrespect"? Could it have anything at all to do with how you treat those who do not agree with you? The 'golden rule' does sort of make an appearance in PFAL in that what you give you receive. Study on that for awhile.
***
You wrote: “He wants to share his message here. I have no problem with that, I just want people to be sure they know where he's coming from. He's not always real clear about that.”
I suggest you wear the appropriate mask and cape if you are going to rescue readers from my wily clutches. I also suggest you focus on discussing things with me to properly find out where I’m coming from, because you’ve consistently gotten me wrong for years.
Mask and cape? oh... I get it... ha ha! You really go me there Mike. Just how would I "discuss things with you properly"??? Never question? Blindly obey? Kiss a$$ more often? What are your rules of discussion Mike? I always figured it was that you post something that you claim is 'thus and so' and if I don't understand how you came to that conclusion then I ask 'how'd you come up with that'? That's all I've done, you've never answered. Please let me (and others) know what is the "proper" way to discuss things with you... because every one of us has failed to do so for years. Does that say something about you or us?
And Tom, you too should tell us where YOU are coming from. I asked you some questions above that you can be clear and forthcoming about, you can do what you falsely accuse me of.
When or if I make statements of my beliefs on this board I do not 'back away from them' nor do I 'fear' those statements. When I have a statement to make concerning something I believe I stand by it or am convinced to change... but I don't avoid them by running around in circles.
I am quite clear on where I am coming from. I don’t know why you think I’m hiding anything. I post what I post.
Because you never directly answer any questions about what you post...
Haven't you figured it out that your philosophy is not going to make even the slightest dent in my armor?
If you expect IN ANY WAY to convince me to leave PFAL you are dead wrong. If you are on this thread to change my mind you are in the wrong place and wasting your time.
Mike... who exactly is trying to convince you to "leave" PFAL? I've seen people tell you that PFAL isn't what you think it is (aren't they allowed to disagree?) but is that any different than you telling them that it is what you think it is?
But I think you’re on this thread for your own ego.
Mr. Kettle... meet Mr. Pot.
You come where the traffic is to play mystic. Your ego can’t stand the loneliness of starting your own thread to spout your poetry so you come here. It’s cheap.
Mike, you're not being nice. You go to other threads and post you 'message of PFAL' on them. CM has as much right to post as you do. You are not the thread police. (are you?)
You have earned zero respect from me. The revelations God gave to Dr and he put into PFAL took 27 years to earn my total respect, and there was much good fruit that did spring from span of time.
Come back in 27 years and show me the great blessings you have generated for thousands of people with your philosophy and you might be able to get my attention and a modicum of respect.
I have no use for your mere spouting. You're playing a role that's common. I've spent a lot of time with mystics and pontificators just like you, and that kind of counterfeit is too easy for me to spot to even make it interesting. Figuratively, there's one of you on every street corner. There is only one PFAL class; there's nothing like it in the world. It's from the True God and you words are not.
Mike, he's entitled to his opinions just like you are isn't he? Don't be such a bully with folks and maybe someone will actually hear your message. Remember giving = receiving.
If you expect IN ANY WAY to convince me to leave PFAL you are dead wrong. If you are on this thread to change my mind you are in the wrong place and wasting your time.
I've long ago and many times said this, that I am done with the search process and the big decision process, and am totally commited to mastering PFAL. I guess I should say it regularly for those who hadn't yet heard and think there is any chance of convicing me otherwise. There is no chance whatsoever.
There are other things I am flexable with and can change my mind on, but not on this Word God taught Dr and Dr put into written form for us. I've even posted many times that I've closed my mind on this issue, and am proud of it. To answer WW on his "Navelite" thread, yes, I am biased on this, but at least I admit it.
Is there anything in your life that you are totally sold on? ...that you will never change on?
If I don't get to your two posts above tonight, there's rain on the way here so I will soon.
I have looked them over and had a few preliminary thoughts before responding point for point.
One thought is this: Just yesterday a grad in this area died. I hadn’t seen this person in 8 years, but the facts of death still hit hard since I fellowshipped with this person at one time. It was even harder on me to see the reaction of a few other grads to this death, and how far they had drifted from what we were taught on the subject. It also got me thinking about one of your pet quotes, about studying PFAL and defeating or defying death.
Another thought is this: If I am afraid of those pet quotes, why would I have made them in the first place? And why would I hang around for you to throw them at me again and again?
Anyway, it occurred to me that the quote of mine on defeating death may still be on the board so I did a search and found some interesting things.
You see, Tom, it’s not that I’m afraid of those quotes of mine, it’s the large amount of work involved in dealing with them. It may have occurred to you by this time that I have an enormous agenda to discuss here regarding what we all received in PFAL.
The truth is simple, but the complexities of error surrounding each truth make presenting my agenda very complex. When I first made those quotes I had seen that the large buildup of context preceding each one supported it the way I felt was necessary, due to the demanding complexities of the errors surrounding each topic. When you bring even one such quote up and demand any kind of review, I think of the huge buildup that will again be necessary to support what I have to say about it. It’s that large amount of essay work I see that is ONE reason I so often refuse. I know you don’t want that supporting essay work, but I do. It’s my agenda not yours. Even just orienting my mind to undertake such a task is often daunting to me.
Anyway, today I’ve been thinking long and hard about the death issue, so the orienting is done there. I’m willing to get into that one some, especially if the rains predicted this weekend materialize.
***
But until then, I did do some preliminary searching just now and found something interesting. I am thankful to you for your recent rounds of deeper discussion than we’ve had in the past, so I hope the tone of this old post will not disrupt the more polite habits you and I are developing.
I just want to show you that I HAVE tried in the past to deal with your issues, but was often frustrated by your reception of my efforts each time. I will try again with this death thing, so this quote below is a side issue.
You seem have very little willingness to debate these issues with me so you resort to vain repetitions. Allow me to engage you in a deeper way here. I will comment on every line of your paste job.
***
... ...Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Yes. That's my way of putting it, with the qualifier that it's the written form of PFAL, the book and magazine form, and that it is addressed to us grads.
***
... ...Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.
Yes, but the "we" here is Older Leader Grads (OLGs) of PFAL who have already spend a lot of time with our KJVs, many other teachings, and field experience, and not enough time with PFAL. For OLGs without that background, this statement of yours, Tom, is false.
Actually, we OLGs do most certainly need, not only the assumed background mentioned above, but we also need the many, many, many KJV verses quoted in the pages of PFAL. Without those those verses, and the knowledge of where they came from, then Tom, your statement is wrong.
I might add here that an occasional reach for our KJVs for review, or context, or to follow up on a suggested reference in PFAL is certainly in order.
For instance, in GMWD pages 91-92 contain a reference to Jeremiah 36: 23 and a summary paragraph of many KJV verses surrounding it. This is not a direct order to read those many verses, but I would take it as an essential suggestion. Once I've done that a few times, THEN I don't need to go there any more for a long while.
In other words, my "Yes" to the above is so qualified, that I'd say, Tom, your line here is an extreme over-abbreviation. You do not do my message justice.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that PFAL is the word of God,
Yes, but that's "Word" with a capital "W."
***
... ...that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Again, that "us" is OLGs with tons of exposure to KJV and other learning as mentioned above.
***
... ...Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away)... ...
So far so good. However this doesn't explain what that 'Table of Challenge' is, so it's poor writing on your part, Tom. Again, it's an over-abbreviation. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
This line is complete hogwash!
This either demonstrates a complete ignorance of what you write, Tom, or a deliberate attempt to smear me. I've written hundreds of lines on the 'Table of Challenge' and I dare you to produce the source of this, or I'll call it slander.
Tom, I could challenge you to a debate, you and you alone, in real time to face my Table of Challenge. We could do it on a telephone with a tape recorder running. Or we could do it in any other way that would assure that you receive no outside help. You have not read anything at all about this topic and are ignorant of what it means. Before I do make this challenge, though, you must demonstrate to me that you did this out of ignorance, and not in a deliberate attempt to smear me, AND that you have gone back and educated yourself by re-reading at least some of what I have actually written on this topic.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
This discounts the reality of Christ in me and Christ in any grad who comes back to PFAL and learns more deeply from it. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Yes. But only for those revelations that are from the True God, i.e. the written forms of PFAL. Those revelations are of God and not of Dr.
This would be true of betraying any true revelation to any human being. If I betray a revelation from the True God to Tom Strange, then I betray the True God.
***
... ...You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Yes, with the understanding that "You" is an OLG.
***
... ...Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
No. Study with the intent to MASTER the written PFAL will bring a student closer to that victory, though. That victory will soon be complete, because the master is at hand.
All in all, Tom, you misrepresent me greatly.
.
.
.
Now please remember this post was done over a year ago, long before the present civil discouse started.
Once again, I am thankful to be in a better mode with you now. I'm also thankful to see that since this old post of mine you removed the line "... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval" from your list of quotes, so thank you for that.
Several days ago You posted this, and it’s been on my mind since.
“Sigh...... __ Mike __ For some reason, you seem incapable of hearing what I am saying to you. You make malicious presumptions about me and my experiences. If you indeed want to "teach" somebody something worthwhile, might I suggest you work on your listening skills? __ Your responses to me, usually have nothing to do with anything I've said. They have everything to do with whatever is going on in your own head. __ Frustrating........”
Then shortly after that doojable wrote something similar: “Mike, sometimes you have trouble understanding what we mean and we keep on repeating ourselves. isn't even at all possible that you are mistaken on your conclusions of what dr meant.”
I’ve been thinking through ways to answer you both but couldn’t get past the thinking stage. But then doojable posted today (in post #635 above) a clue to what you may have been talking about.
Is your frustration one of not being able to talk me out of my mindset? It looks like that may be doojable’s, but I though I’d ask you and then her. (dooj? what do you say?)
It also occurred to me that maybe what you were talking about was my not responding to your posts with something like “I see your point and I feel that you are doing the best for your own life.”
If this second guess of mine is accurate, I’d have to STILL resist saying the above, but could say this: “I see your point and see that you are doing what you think is the best for your own life, BUT I still think there is something much better for you in coming back to written PFAL and getting it right and complete this time.”
I know this too may not be what you want to hear, but is it at least closer?
If I’m totally off base with both guesses here, could you please try again? If you could help me see what you think I’m not seeing I’ll try to listen again.
Showing me specifically what you feel I missed may help. I'm especially concerned with "You make malicious presumptions about me and my experiences." Could you at least quote me on this one?
Some more searching of this board yielded this from my thread titled “A proPFAL Thread - General Comments” and it too is over a year old.
Mike Jan 22 2005, 11:36 PM Post #89
Abigail,
You wrote: "How does studying PFAL defeat death, Mike? We will all face death one day, unless the return comes first, no?"
PFAL stands for ( and I'm sure you know, but it's worth spelling it out) Power for Abundant Living. Death is the opposite of living, it stops life. The power God wants us to have is the power to stop that which limits abundance of life.
With all nine manifestations in operation in the Body of Christ death can be avoided, because it's always against God's will, and God will always supply the information and the power to defeat death.
The reason we say we face death is because no one has taped into this power God supplies in Christ to it's fullest. It's been available in one sense, yet elusive for 2000 years. PFAL is God's move to remove that elusiveness through the most up front, all inclusive, yet simple teaching of how that power can be finally put into operation.
The Return of Christ, I'm learning, is a multifaceted broad event, comprising of many mini "returns." When you, that is to say Christ in you, returns to this written teaching in the PFAL books he can then receive the nourishment needed to rise up and conquer death in your life. You can do this because the way God designed this set of events is there is now, for the first time in history, not only the teaching necessary, but also the community of other grads who can do it with you, with us, and together our believing can rise to that perfectly renewed mind. Where one grad fails, another can help lift him up, and he another in return.
The teaching is all in place ready to be tapped into deeper than it was the first time around, the times are ripe politically with the freedom of religion and expression that now reigns like never before, the communication is all in place, the travel technology, the health technology to give us life spans that can reach long enough to learn enough to believe enough, etc.
These are all things that the first century was lacking. They had a fading memory of the one man who went all the way with the believing and power. They had the difficulty of receiving the revelation of the Mystery counter to all tradition. They had limited life spans, travel, and communication. They had political repression.
We have it all in place except for one thing: we have been temporarily talked out of using what we have. But that's changing. The time of our return to God's revelation is at hand. It's time to see Jesus Christ NOW, by becoming like him through this Word we've been given.
When we return to PFAL we learn how to see him and his perfect example of perfect believing. The time for waiting passively for Christ's return is over. We can return to God and see NOW. The time to see death defeated has arrived. Who wants to be among the first to believe (act) and see?
Mike, response to your first post: Thanks for that walk down memory lane.
For those of you playing along at home, you might want to actually click the link and read the posts that followed that one. (You know how Mike wants to make sure you get the proper context) WW does a nice job of answering the post that Mike quoted here and my responses are on the next page.
I've long ago and many times said this, that I am done with the search process and the big decision process, and am totally commited to mastering PFAL. I guess I should say it regularly for those who hadn't yet heard and think there is any chance of convicing me otherwise. There is no chance whatsoever.
There are other things I am flexable with and can change my mind on, but not on this Word God taught Dr and Dr put into written form for us. I've even posted many times that I've closed my mind on this issue, and am proud of it. To answer WW on his "Navelite" thread, yes, I am biased on this, but at least I admit it.
Is there anything in your life that you are totally sold on? ...that you will never change on?
It's very important for all of us to keep this in mind when "speaking" with Mike. Many folks that Mike engages in "discussion" are under the impression that it's just that, a discussion. There is no discussing or debating PFAL with Mike. There's no use, he's told us this before but it's nice that he put it out here again.
That's why I don't debate him on the topic of PFAL anymore. I only ask him questions regarding PFAL that help clarify what he's saying because many times "I can't believe I actually 'heard' what I just 'heard'..." So that's why I ask him if this is what he really believes. I believe that's why he's always taking the position of "teacher" ...because (in his mind) we all need to do and learn as he has and does.
With all nine manifestations in operation in the Body of Christ death can be avoided, because it's always against God's will, and God will always supply the information and the power to defeat death.
Mike, are you talking about actual physical death here? I know there's a lot of verbiage after this quote in your post, but it just further explains and qualifies this statement.
I just want to be clear here... are you talking about actual, physical death? ...to put it another way: "the end of soul life"?
I’m just beginning to respond to your two larger posts of today. More will follow as time permits.
I had written: "I am quite clear on where I am coming from. I don’t know why you think I’m hiding anything. I post what I post."
You responded with: "Because you never directly answer any questions about what you post..."
Well, I just showed you where I DID directly answer a bunch of your questions, albeit briefly, but then I showed you how I did answer one of your pet quotes (to Abigail) in great detail. It's this one that I feel I can get back into, the one on defying death.
***
Now in your more recent post #642 you write: “There is no discussing or debating PFAL with Mike. There's no use, he's told us this before but it's nice that he put it out here again.”
I SEVERELY PROTEST THIS!
Many here have positions set in stone against PFAL and VPW, but only quietly admit it! It doesn’t prevent them from discussion, does it?
You did quote, but seemed to ignore this line in my post: “There are other things I am flexible with and can change my mind on, but...”
There’s plenty of discussion we all can have here, but if anyone thinks they are going to change my mind on THIS issue, then the discussions will not do that. Discussion is not always meant to change another’s mind.
Tom, can you change, and come back to PFAL? Or are you set in stone against it?
And aren’t you assuming the role of a teacher by posting what you just posted in #642?
Tom, had you forgotten that I DID respond to your quotes back then?
No... I haven't forgotten... there's a response there... but there's more accusations about me and claims of misrepresentation than explanation. You always respond... it's just not usually a direct answer of my question(s).
I think your response to dooj, which I quoted above, pretty much answers where you're coming from... it's just that when I bring up "the statements" instead of saying "yes, they're mine and here's why" you deny saying them or avoid admitting authorship of them as much as you can.
You wrote; “Mike, are you talking about actual physical death here? I know there's a lot of verbiage after this quote in your post, but it just further explains and qualifies this statement. __ I just want to be clear here... are you talking about actual, physical death? ...to put it another way: ‘the end of soul life’?”
Physical death, end of soul life.
Jesus Christ was physically dead. His soul life ended. God raised him from that kind of death. We have victory over that kind of death as well as all kinds in Christ.
Tom,
You wrote: "No... I haven't forgotten... there's a response there... but there's more accusations about me and claims of misrepresentation than explanation. You always respond... it's just not usually a direct answer of my question(s)."
Remember, my responses to you have been in the midst of battles I did not start. I responded in great detail to Abigail because she and I started actually communicating long ago, in spite of the battles.
Now in your more recent post #642 you write: “There is no discussing or debating PFAL with Mike. There's no use, he's told us this before but it's nice that he put it out here again.”
I SEVERELY PROTEST THIS!
Why? You just said that your position was not going to change regarding PFAL.
Many here have positions set in stone against PFAL and VPW, but only quietly admit it! It doesn’t prevent them from discussion, does it?
No, it doesn't but they're discussing it with people to either a) change their minds or b) let people know where they stand. They're not approaching it from the position of "sitting in front of the class teaching the folks"... there's a difference in how they approach and discuss, because there's actual discussion taking place (two way communication)... not "teaching" (one way communication)
You did quote, but seemed to ignore this line in my post: “There are other things I am flexible with and can change my mind on, but...”
I didn't ignore it, I don't really respond to every single word you post.
There’s plenty of discussion we all can have here, [regarding PFAL? what's the point? the only point I see would be for you to get your "teaching" across, so I try to save some time and give the reader (student) some of the bigger blockbuster points.] but if anyone thinks they are going to change my mind on THIS issue, then the discussions will not do that.[That's what I just said in the post you referenced (#642)] Discussion is not always meant to change another’s mind.
True, most of the time it's for 'sharing ideas' about things. No offense, but personally I find it a 'waste of breath' to discuss PFAL with you since I know that you totally and completely dismiss whatever I might say as 'from an unlearned source and not worthy of consideration'. And who wants to take the time to spill their guts 'discussing' if what they're saying isn't even being considered by the party they're 'discussing' with? Not me. So... as I read what you "teach" I ask for clarifications.
Tom, can you change, and come back to PFAL? Or are you set in stone against it?
hmmm.. let me check... the answer came back "not likely"
And aren’t you assuming the role of a teacher by posting what you just posted in #642?
I don't think so... I look at myself as more of an "informer".
Seems a rather grandiose title for yourself to me. .... The perception of yourself a *teacher* here to educate is pretty unrealistic.
This isn`t your class room, and no one here is your pupil.
You are nothing more than a fellow poster, on this thread.....your ideas to be bandied about and evaluated by all who participate.
I am very interested in hearing Tom`s points as well as dooj`s, Clay Dave, ex 10 and so many other insightfull people here .... they present great counter points to your position.
Contrary to your percetion that they are distractions....they are the ones posting scripturally sound arguments against your premise.
No point in preaching and lecturing ....nobody is having any of it....Come off of your pedistal and join in the interaction with your fellow posters.
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CM
It's nothing about what we apply, but what happens within.
What happens when the truth is believed. Faith.
And that Truth continues to unfold and NO doctrine can hold it.
It is unlimited till we limit it.
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CM
that ain't no law either
it's different for each person
all over the world
you should really open your eyes to
what is really happening Mike
climb out of your pfalvpw hole you have built
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Mike
CM,
Haven't you figured it out that your philosophy is not going to make even the slightest dent in my armor?
If you expect IN ANY WAY to convince me to leave PFAL you are dead wrong. If you are on this thread to change my mind you are in the wrong place and wasting your time.
But I think you’re on this thread for your own ego. You come where the traffic is to play mystic. Your ego can’t stand the loneliness of starting your own thread to spout your poetry so you come here. It’s cheap.
You have earned zero respect from me. The revelations God gave to Dr and he put into PFAL took 27 years to earn my total respect, and there was much good fruit that did spring from span of time.
Come back in 27 years and show me the great blessings you have generated for thousands of people with your philosophy and you might be able to get my attention and a modicum of respect.
I have no use for your mere spouting. You're playing a role that's common. I've spent a lot of time with mystics and pontificators just like you, and that kind of counterfeit is too easy for me to spot to even make it interesting. Figuratively, there's one of you on every street corner. There is only one PFAL class; there's nothing like it in the world. It's from the True God and you words are not.
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CM
haha there's only one that will melt your junk buddy.
it ain't me and i'll be glad when he does it
funny how you attack when you know the other is right on
you are back on mute fella
had the time to respond to my post huh....lol..
what's the matter-is it raining and you are not tired or something?
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Mike
CM,
I'm here to discuss PFAL and it's contents. I know you are not up to that task.
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Tom Strange
My responses in bold:
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Tom Strange
Again... my responses in bold:
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CM
Thanks Tom
Interesting that Mike said earlier he is not doing pfal
Now he says he is
back and forth back and forth
i don't know what he means by me playing "mystic"
but i know the game he is playing
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doojable
Mike, I think you just ended your own thread
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Mike
doojable,
I've long ago and many times said this, that I am done with the search process and the big decision process, and am totally commited to mastering PFAL. I guess I should say it regularly for those who hadn't yet heard and think there is any chance of convicing me otherwise. There is no chance whatsoever.
There are other things I am flexable with and can change my mind on, but not on this Word God taught Dr and Dr put into written form for us. I've even posted many times that I've closed my mind on this issue, and am proud of it. To answer WW on his "Navelite" thread, yes, I am biased on this, but at least I admit it.
Is there anything in your life that you are totally sold on? ...that you will never change on?
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Mike
Tom Strange,
If I don't get to your two posts above tonight, there's rain on the way here so I will soon.
I have looked them over and had a few preliminary thoughts before responding point for point.
One thought is this: Just yesterday a grad in this area died. I hadn’t seen this person in 8 years, but the facts of death still hit hard since I fellowshipped with this person at one time. It was even harder on me to see the reaction of a few other grads to this death, and how far they had drifted from what we were taught on the subject. It also got me thinking about one of your pet quotes, about studying PFAL and defeating or defying death.
Another thought is this: If I am afraid of those pet quotes, why would I have made them in the first place? And why would I hang around for you to throw them at me again and again?
Anyway, it occurred to me that the quote of mine on defeating death may still be on the board so I did a search and found some interesting things.
You see, Tom, it’s not that I’m afraid of those quotes of mine, it’s the large amount of work involved in dealing with them. It may have occurred to you by this time that I have an enormous agenda to discuss here regarding what we all received in PFAL.
The truth is simple, but the complexities of error surrounding each truth make presenting my agenda very complex. When I first made those quotes I had seen that the large buildup of context preceding each one supported it the way I felt was necessary, due to the demanding complexities of the errors surrounding each topic. When you bring even one such quote up and demand any kind of review, I think of the huge buildup that will again be necessary to support what I have to say about it. It’s that large amount of essay work I see that is ONE reason I so often refuse. I know you don’t want that supporting essay work, but I do. It’s my agenda not yours. Even just orienting my mind to undertake such a task is often daunting to me.
Anyway, today I’ve been thinking long and hard about the death issue, so the orienting is done there. I’m willing to get into that one some, especially if the rains predicted this weekend materialize.
***
But until then, I did do some preliminary searching just now and found something interesting. I am thankful to you for your recent rounds of deeper discussion than we’ve had in the past, so I hope the tone of this old post will not disrupt the more polite habits you and I are developing.
I just want to show you that I HAVE tried in the past to deal with your issues, but was often frustrated by your reception of my efforts each time. I will try again with this death thing, so this quote below is a side issue.
This can be found here on WW’s thread titled “Digest/Commentary re: propfal thread-Gen com” at http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...21entry114421
Mike Jan 23 2005, 11:59 PM Post #73
Tom Strange,
You seem have very little willingness to debate these issues with me so you resort to vain repetitions. Allow me to engage you in a deeper way here. I will comment on every line of your paste job.
***
... ...Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Yes. That's my way of putting it, with the qualifier that it's the written form of PFAL, the book and magazine form, and that it is addressed to us grads.
***
... ...Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.
Yes, but the "we" here is Older Leader Grads (OLGs) of PFAL who have already spend a lot of time with our KJVs, many other teachings, and field experience, and not enough time with PFAL. For OLGs without that background, this statement of yours, Tom, is false.
Actually, we OLGs do most certainly need, not only the assumed background mentioned above, but we also need the many, many, many KJV verses quoted in the pages of PFAL. Without those those verses, and the knowledge of where they came from, then Tom, your statement is wrong.
I might add here that an occasional reach for our KJVs for review, or context, or to follow up on a suggested reference in PFAL is certainly in order.
For instance, in GMWD pages 91-92 contain a reference to Jeremiah 36: 23 and a summary paragraph of many KJV verses surrounding it. This is not a direct order to read those many verses, but I would take it as an essential suggestion. Once I've done that a few times, THEN I don't need to go there any more for a long while.
In other words, my "Yes" to the above is so qualified, that I'd say, Tom, your line here is an extreme over-abbreviation. You do not do my message justice.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that PFAL is the word of God,
Yes, but that's "Word" with a capital "W."
***
... ...that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Again, that "us" is OLGs with tons of exposure to KJV and other learning as mentioned above.
***
... ...Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away)... ...
So far so good. However this doesn't explain what that 'Table of Challenge' is, so it's poor writing on your part, Tom. Again, it's an over-abbreviation. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
This line is complete hogwash!
This either demonstrates a complete ignorance of what you write, Tom, or a deliberate attempt to smear me. I've written hundreds of lines on the 'Table of Challenge' and I dare you to produce the source of this, or I'll call it slander.
Tom, I could challenge you to a debate, you and you alone, in real time to face my Table of Challenge. We could do it on a telephone with a tape recorder running. Or we could do it in any other way that would assure that you receive no outside help. You have not read anything at all about this topic and are ignorant of what it means. Before I do make this challenge, though, you must demonstrate to me that you did this out of ignorance, and not in a deliberate attempt to smear me, AND that you have gone back and educated yourself by re-reading at least some of what I have actually written on this topic.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
This discounts the reality of Christ in me and Christ in any grad who comes back to PFAL and learns more deeply from it. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Yes. But only for those revelations that are from the True God, i.e. the written forms of PFAL. Those revelations are of God and not of Dr.
This would be true of betraying any true revelation to any human being. If I betray a revelation from the True God to Tom Strange, then I betray the True God.
***
... ...You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Yes, with the understanding that "You" is an OLG.
***
... ...Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
No. Study with the intent to MASTER the written PFAL will bring a student closer to that victory, though. That victory will soon be complete, because the master is at hand.
All in all, Tom, you misrepresent me greatly.
.
.
.
Now please remember this post was done over a year ago, long before the present civil discouse started.
Once again, I am thankful to be in a better mode with you now. I'm also thankful to see that since this old post of mine you removed the line "... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval" from your list of quotes, so thank you for that.
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Mike
ex10,
Several days ago You posted this, and it’s been on my mind since.
“Sigh...... __ Mike __ For some reason, you seem incapable of hearing what I am saying to you. You make malicious presumptions about me and my experiences. If you indeed want to "teach" somebody something worthwhile, might I suggest you work on your listening skills? __ Your responses to me, usually have nothing to do with anything I've said. They have everything to do with whatever is going on in your own head. __ Frustrating........”
Then shortly after that doojable wrote something similar: “Mike, sometimes you have trouble understanding what we mean and we keep on repeating ourselves. isn't even at all possible that you are mistaken on your conclusions of what dr meant.”
I’ve been thinking through ways to answer you both but couldn’t get past the thinking stage. But then doojable posted today (in post #635 above) a clue to what you may have been talking about.
Is your frustration one of not being able to talk me out of my mindset? It looks like that may be doojable’s, but I though I’d ask you and then her. (dooj? what do you say?)
It also occurred to me that maybe what you were talking about was my not responding to your posts with something like “I see your point and I feel that you are doing the best for your own life.”
If this second guess of mine is accurate, I’d have to STILL resist saying the above, but could say this: “I see your point and see that you are doing what you think is the best for your own life, BUT I still think there is something much better for you in coming back to written PFAL and getting it right and complete this time.”
I know this too may not be what you want to hear, but is it at least closer?
If I’m totally off base with both guesses here, could you please try again? If you could help me see what you think I’m not seeing I’ll try to listen again.
Showing me specifically what you feel I missed may help. I'm especially concerned with "You make malicious presumptions about me and my experiences." Could you at least quote me on this one?
Thanks.
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Mike
Tom,
Some more searching of this board yielded this from my thread titled “A proPFAL Thread - General Comments” and it too is over a year old.
Mike Jan 22 2005, 11:36 PM Post #89
Abigail,
You wrote: "How does studying PFAL defeat death, Mike? We will all face death one day, unless the return comes first, no?"
PFAL stands for ( and I'm sure you know, but it's worth spelling it out) Power for Abundant Living. Death is the opposite of living, it stops life. The power God wants us to have is the power to stop that which limits abundance of life.
With all nine manifestations in operation in the Body of Christ death can be avoided, because it's always against God's will, and God will always supply the information and the power to defeat death.
The reason we say we face death is because no one has taped into this power God supplies in Christ to it's fullest. It's been available in one sense, yet elusive for 2000 years. PFAL is God's move to remove that elusiveness through the most up front, all inclusive, yet simple teaching of how that power can be finally put into operation.
The Return of Christ, I'm learning, is a multifaceted broad event, comprising of many mini "returns." When you, that is to say Christ in you, returns to this written teaching in the PFAL books he can then receive the nourishment needed to rise up and conquer death in your life. You can do this because the way God designed this set of events is there is now, for the first time in history, not only the teaching necessary, but also the community of other grads who can do it with you, with us, and together our believing can rise to that perfectly renewed mind. Where one grad fails, another can help lift him up, and he another in return.
The teaching is all in place ready to be tapped into deeper than it was the first time around, the times are ripe politically with the freedom of religion and expression that now reigns like never before, the communication is all in place, the travel technology, the health technology to give us life spans that can reach long enough to learn enough to believe enough, etc.
These are all things that the first century was lacking. They had a fading memory of the one man who went all the way with the believing and power. They had the difficulty of receiving the revelation of the Mystery counter to all tradition. They had limited life spans, travel, and communication. They had political repression.
We have it all in place except for one thing: we have been temporarily talked out of using what we have. But that's changing. The time of our return to God's revelation is at hand. It's time to see Jesus Christ NOW, by becoming like him through this Word we've been given.
When we return to PFAL we learn how to see him and his perfect example of perfect believing. The time for waiting passively for Christ's return is over. We can return to God and see NOW. The time to see death defeated has arrived. Who wants to be among the first to believe (act) and see?
THAT's how studying PFAL will defeat death.
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Tom Strange
Mike, response to your first post: Thanks for that walk down memory lane.
For those of you playing along at home, you might want to actually click the link and read the posts that followed that one. (You know how Mike wants to make sure you get the proper context) WW does a nice job of answering the post that Mike quoted here and my responses are on the next page.
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Mike
Tom, had you forgotten that I DID respond to your quotes back then?
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Tom Strange
It's very important for all of us to keep this in mind when "speaking" with Mike. Many folks that Mike engages in "discussion" are under the impression that it's just that, a discussion. There is no discussing or debating PFAL with Mike. There's no use, he's told us this before but it's nice that he put it out here again.
That's why I don't debate him on the topic of PFAL anymore. I only ask him questions regarding PFAL that help clarify what he's saying because many times "I can't believe I actually 'heard' what I just 'heard'..." So that's why I ask him if this is what he really believes. I believe that's why he's always taking the position of "teacher" ...because (in his mind) we all need to do and learn as he has and does.
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Tom Strange
Mike, are you talking about actual physical death here? I know there's a lot of verbiage after this quote in your post, but it just further explains and qualifies this statement.
I just want to be clear here... are you talking about actual, physical death? ...to put it another way: "the end of soul life"?
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Mike
Tom,
I’m just beginning to respond to your two larger posts of today. More will follow as time permits.
I had written: "I am quite clear on where I am coming from. I don’t know why you think I’m hiding anything. I post what I post."
You responded with: "Because you never directly answer any questions about what you post..."
Well, I just showed you where I DID directly answer a bunch of your questions, albeit briefly, but then I showed you how I did answer one of your pet quotes (to Abigail) in great detail. It's this one that I feel I can get back into, the one on defying death.
***
Now in your more recent post #642 you write: “There is no discussing or debating PFAL with Mike. There's no use, he's told us this before but it's nice that he put it out here again.”
I SEVERELY PROTEST THIS!
Many here have positions set in stone against PFAL and VPW, but only quietly admit it! It doesn’t prevent them from discussion, does it?
You did quote, but seemed to ignore this line in my post: “There are other things I am flexible with and can change my mind on, but...”
There’s plenty of discussion we all can have here, but if anyone thinks they are going to change my mind on THIS issue, then the discussions will not do that. Discussion is not always meant to change another’s mind.
Tom, can you change, and come back to PFAL? Or are you set in stone against it?
And aren’t you assuming the role of a teacher by posting what you just posted in #642?
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Tom Strange
No... I haven't forgotten... there's a response there... but there's more accusations about me and claims of misrepresentation than explanation. You always respond... it's just not usually a direct answer of my question(s).
I think your response to dooj, which I quoted above, pretty much answers where you're coming from... it's just that when I bring up "the statements" instead of saying "yes, they're mine and here's why" you deny saying them or avoid admitting authorship of them as much as you can.
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Mike
Tom,
You wrote; “Mike, are you talking about actual physical death here? I know there's a lot of verbiage after this quote in your post, but it just further explains and qualifies this statement. __ I just want to be clear here... are you talking about actual, physical death? ...to put it another way: ‘the end of soul life’?”
Physical death, end of soul life.
Jesus Christ was physically dead. His soul life ended. God raised him from that kind of death. We have victory over that kind of death as well as all kinds in Christ.
Tom,
You wrote: "No... I haven't forgotten... there's a response there... but there's more accusations about me and claims of misrepresentation than explanation. You always respond... it's just not usually a direct answer of my question(s)."
Remember, my responses to you have been in the midst of battles I did not start. I responded in great detail to Abigail because she and I started actually communicating long ago, in spite of the battles.
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Tom Strange
My comments in bold:
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Mike
Isn't that what teachers do, inform?
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rascal
Seems a rather grandiose title for yourself to me. .... The perception of yourself a *teacher* here to educate is pretty unrealistic.
This isn`t your class room, and no one here is your pupil.
You are nothing more than a fellow poster, on this thread.....your ideas to be bandied about and evaluated by all who participate.
I am very interested in hearing Tom`s points as well as dooj`s, Clay Dave, ex 10 and so many other insightfull people here .... they present great counter points to your position.
Contrary to your percetion that they are distractions....they are the ones posting scripturally sound arguments against your premise.
No point in preaching and lecturing ....nobody is having any of it....Come off of your pedistal and join in the interaction with your fellow posters.
You might see the hand of God at work.
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CM
well thank ya rascal!
you have some very good posts yourself
maybe i'll unmute mike the "teacher" just for the opportunity to speak
or not..lol...
the first post clearly states it's for all who dare or care to participate
not just mike
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