You wrote: “MHO, but I think the whole "law of believing" teaching assaults the character of God, and the nature of our relationship with Him.”
It looks like you’re over-reacting to the abuses of people-to-people in the execution of “law of believing TVTs” by blaming the written PFAL teachings of that law of believing.
I think you’re lashing out at a teaching that has many KJV roots to it.
There is nothing in written PFAL that does anything like “assault the character of God.”
I appreciate your response. I confess, to being at a severe disadvantage, because I don't have any written PFAL materials anymore, except a couple of books.
But I think the idea of approaching God almighty, with the "law of believing" does bring into question many of his attributes, and his heart of a loving Father, that are revealed in scripture. Don't you remember? how the law works "for saint and sinner alike?"
What an insult to Who He Is for us. And what He is doing now, and will do in the future. Despite our "believing."
If it was up to Israel to "believe" for the Messiah, holy catfish, Batman, do you think it ever whould have happened? God's will and his divine plan will happen, whether anybody believes it or not.
It's an egocentric doctrine, that has nothing to do with God, or the fulfilling of his will.
My main objection to the "law of believing" way of thinking was tht people began to think that God was just some puppet on a string that they could manipulate by getting needs and wants parallel and invoking the name of Jesus Christ.
As I recall, TWI absolutely hated the phrase, "God is in Control."
WTH, I am a bit disappointed - your logic has some holes in it - mainly because you have chosen to pick and choose verses while ignoring other verses that do not support your whole idea on the "law of Believing."
You have forgotten to include the time when the disciples asked Jesus to "increase their faith." ( same greek word as "grow" in the Book of Acts) That is when Jesus responds that the only believing that is necessary is that of a grain of mustard. ( It's late so I'm going on memory of lots of past word studies Plwase forgive me.)
This seems to contradict your "great faith" scenario. Now I am sure that it can be reconciled - but I wish you had at least mentioned it.
I do not believe that "great faith" has anything to do with an amount or size. I believe it has to do with faith regardless of how dire the circumstances - especially since many of those Jesus used this term with were not those of Israel.
It is so important that we get beyond PFAL and see the word as it is nto just mindlessly regurgitate words that we heard for years and years.
Mike, you had that quote from Dr regarding mastering PFAL.. I will repeat again that when I heard that I was one of those that hit the books HARD. I knew each teaching and could teach PFAL with my eyes closed - I studied the written not the tape as I did not have the tapes.
I am sure that I am not the only one who did that - yet I am not convinced that Dr had the inside track on truth.
I’m not ignoring you two, and I hope to soon respond to your recent posts when my schedule opens up. There’s rain forecasted for the next two days so I’ve been making hay while the sun shines.
In addition to a sub-theme you two seem to be working on, I also see a big breakthrough on the law of believing discussion of a couple days ago. As Mark posted his elaboration on the law of gravity analogy after I had I had used it in an analogy, and as several posters followed him, I saw a pattern that should be easy to write up and report. That should be fun.
***
How did everyone feel about both Mark’s and my using something as technical as gravity as a teaching device? I may elaborate on it further if people don’t feel to lost or bored by what we said.
By the way, Mark, I too have posted on Newton’s full formula for gravity, except I didn’t use math, just words. I also noticed that, in the thread where I had posted it, things were very combative, so I refrained from re-posting it verbatim. I am enjoying the relative calm of this discussion. With a slight re-write my earlier gravity post will fit in with what I have to offer regarding the string of posts that followed your gravity exposition.
By the way, Mark, do you know what the opposite of gravity is?
Have you anything besides off-topic heckling to offer the discussion at hand?
And who ever said anything about physical?
Have you rightly divided Gal. 4:19 lately?
Christ is supposed to live in our SOUL, not our physical body. The mind of Christ is supposed to be born within our minds and then grow as we feed him the pure Word of God, and that’s what I taught here. You got what I taught wrong in your relentless efforts to derail and obfuscate discussions.
Got what you taught wrong? ...ahhh now I understand your perspective....YOU are THE teacher...the rest of greasespoters your *students*....so sit down and shut UP Tom Strange, you are interrupting the teacher and disrupting his class
That oughtta be in your profile so folks understand that you aren`t here to participate....just indoctrinate.
What....is the only reason you are involved here is to muster up some recruits for your new and better group?
The arrogance of your percieved self as our *educator* just floors me.
When we've been feeding from God's pure Word for a while there are many ideas within that do not necessarily interact with each other... until a sunesis occurs, a flowing together of rivers.
God is the one who causes these many elements to come together, but we are responsible for proper feeding once He given us that pure Word.
When we received holy spirit created within our minds were unaffected. It's when we have that spirit AND we feed from God's Word that things come together forming Christ.
rascal,
That dig was aimed at Tom, and not you. He started it.
Warning......I don't read really long posts. And I discarded the "law of believing" as total bunk before I ever even left TWI. There is no way in this lifetime you will convince me of its validity in my life as a Christian. You see, Mike, I believe it's what the KJV calls a "doctrine of devils," at its worst, and pop psycology myth at its best.
And that's not an over reaction either. It's 3 decades of considering it. So go ahead and post whatever you want. There have been enuff discussions of this topic already. I'm not going there again. I would really like to move on in my life to deeper issues of faith.
When we've been feeding from God's pure Word for a while there are many ideas within that do not necessarily interact with each other... until a sunesis occurs, a flowing together of rivers.
God is the one who causes these many elements to come together, but we are responsible for proper feeding once He given us that pure Word.
When we received holy spirit created within our minds were unaffected. It's when we have that spirit AND we feed from God's Word that things come together forming Christ.
rascal,
That dig was aimed at Tom, and not you. He started it.
and when we received holy spirit - where did it come from?
btw-i don't see "feeding" in pfal or the bible-please clarify
also the Word-many opinions on what that is
And try not to ignore me like you are doing with the believing subject.
I am not the one to be afraid of. Perfect Love will soon be revealed.
Surely you can understand my precarious perch here. If I teach you the answer, the ego police will show up wagging their wascally finger at me. I have to play dumb to not offend.
Have you anything besides off-topic heckling to offer the discussion at hand?
And who ever said anything about physical?
Have you rightly divided Gal. 4:19 lately?
Christ is supposed to live in our SOUL, not our physical body. The mind of Christ is supposed to be born within our minds and then grow as we feed him the pure Word of God, and that’s what I taught here. You got what I taught wrong in your relentless efforts to derail and obfuscate discussions.
Mikey, Mikey, Mikey... I may be 'off topic' as far as the title of the tread goes...but not concerning YOU. The main topic of all of your posts is M-I-K-E...
So I don't think I'm any more off topic when posting on the subject of Mike than you are (since your posts are about Mike)!
And Mike... have you forgotten how you once told/taught us that you had an actual physical Christ growing inside of you?
The main reason you post at these boards is to flatter yourself...
Don't make me come back here and post The Mike Synopsis...
I never thought I would stick up for Mike, but really, it is the doctrinal forum, and if Mike wants to try to teach us something here.....what's the harm?
I will never agree with him in this lifetime on PFAL, but if he wants to try and convince me, hey I might listen, I might not.
:mellow:
We all have a voice here. Maybe Mike should have one too? Nobody has to listen, moi included.
At least he's found an outlet for what he thinks.
Maybe that's not so different than the rest of us?
Ohmygosh, I might even vote for a democrat next thing I know.......
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Mike
Ex10,
You wrote: “MHO, but I think the whole "law of believing" teaching assaults the character of God, and the nature of our relationship with Him.”
It looks like you’re over-reacting to the abuses of people-to-people in the execution of “law of believing TVTs” by blaming the written PFAL teachings of that law of believing.
I think you’re lashing out at a teaching that has many KJV roots to it.
There is nothing in written PFAL that does anything like “assault the character of God.”
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ex10
Mike,
I appreciate your response. I confess, to being at a severe disadvantage, because I don't have any written PFAL materials anymore, except a couple of books.
But I think the idea of approaching God almighty, with the "law of believing" does bring into question many of his attributes, and his heart of a loving Father, that are revealed in scripture. Don't you remember? how the law works "for saint and sinner alike?"
What an insult to Who He Is for us. And what He is doing now, and will do in the future. Despite our "believing."
If it was up to Israel to "believe" for the Messiah, holy catfish, Batman, do you think it ever whould have happened? God's will and his divine plan will happen, whether anybody believes it or not.
It's an egocentric doctrine, that has nothing to do with God, or the fulfilling of his will.
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doojable
My main objection to the "law of believing" way of thinking was tht people began to think that God was just some puppet on a string that they could manipulate by getting needs and wants parallel and invoking the name of Jesus Christ.
As I recall, TWI absolutely hated the phrase, "God is in Control."
WTH, I am a bit disappointed - your logic has some holes in it - mainly because you have chosen to pick and choose verses while ignoring other verses that do not support your whole idea on the "law of Believing."
You have forgotten to include the time when the disciples asked Jesus to "increase their faith." ( same greek word as "grow" in the Book of Acts) That is when Jesus responds that the only believing that is necessary is that of a grain of mustard. ( It's late so I'm going on memory of lots of past word studies Plwase forgive me.)
This seems to contradict your "great faith" scenario. Now I am sure that it can be reconciled - but I wish you had at least mentioned it.
I do not believe that "great faith" has anything to do with an amount or size. I believe it has to do with faith regardless of how dire the circumstances - especially since many of those Jesus used this term with were not those of Israel.
It is so important that we get beyond PFAL and see the word as it is nto just mindlessly regurgitate words that we heard for years and years.
Mike, you had that quote from Dr regarding mastering PFAL.. I will repeat again that when I heard that I was one of those that hit the books HARD. I knew each teaching and could teach PFAL with my eyes closed - I studied the written not the tape as I did not have the tapes.
I am sure that I am not the only one who did that - yet I am not convinced that Dr had the inside track on truth.
By the way... what is a TVT?
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dmiller
If I recollect correct --- TVT means Twi Verbal Tradition (though I may be wrong about that.)
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ex10
oi vey
Notice how wth's explanation has nothing to do with one's heart. It's a mechanical formula that has nothin to do with nothin.
My muslim neighbor says he believes Jesus was a great prophet.
He even believes that Jesus was raised from the dead.
Does that make him saved?
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Mike
Ex10 and doojable,
I’m not ignoring you two, and I hope to soon respond to your recent posts when my schedule opens up. There’s rain forecasted for the next two days so I’ve been making hay while the sun shines.
In addition to a sub-theme you two seem to be working on, I also see a big breakthrough on the law of believing discussion of a couple days ago. As Mark posted his elaboration on the law of gravity analogy after I had I had used it in an analogy, and as several posters followed him, I saw a pattern that should be easy to write up and report. That should be fun.
***
How did everyone feel about both Mark’s and my using something as technical as gravity as a teaching device? I may elaborate on it further if people don’t feel to lost or bored by what we said.
By the way, Mark, I too have posted on Newton’s full formula for gravity, except I didn’t use math, just words. I also noticed that, in the thread where I had posted it, things were very combative, so I refrained from re-posting it verbatim. I am enjoying the relative calm of this discussion. With a slight re-write my earlier gravity post will fit in with what I have to offer regarding the string of posts that followed your gravity exposition.
By the way, Mark, do you know what the opposite of gravity is?
Scroll down for the answer.
going down
going down
going down
Ahhh. And here we are. That didn’t take too long.
The opposite of gravity is comedy!
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Tom Strange
...my gawd Mike... no matter what forum... no matter what topic... it's all sooooo about you...
can you post an MRI scan of that 'actual, physical Christ' growing inside you?
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Mike
Tom,
Have you anything besides off-topic heckling to offer the discussion at hand?
And who ever said anything about physical?
Have you rightly divided Gal. 4:19 lately?
Christ is supposed to live in our SOUL, not our physical body. The mind of Christ is supposed to be born within our minds and then grow as we feed him the pure Word of God, and that’s what I taught here. You got what I taught wrong in your relentless efforts to derail and obfuscate discussions.
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CM
according to pfal "formed" means it's something that is already there
so what does it mean for Christ to be formed in you
i think of transformed
and more
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rascal
Got what you taught wrong? ...ahhh now I understand your perspective....YOU are THE teacher...the rest of greasespoters your *students*....so sit down and shut UP Tom Strange, you are interrupting the teacher and disrupting his class
That oughtta be in your profile so folks understand that you aren`t here to participate....just indoctrinate.
What....is the only reason you are involved here is to muster up some recruits for your new and better group?
The arrogance of your percieved self as our *educator* just floors me.
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Mike
CM,
When we've been feeding from God's pure Word for a while there are many ideas within that do not necessarily interact with each other... until a sunesis occurs, a flowing together of rivers.
God is the one who causes these many elements to come together, but we are responsible for proper feeding once He given us that pure Word.
When we received holy spirit created within our minds were unaffected. It's when we have that spirit AND we feed from God's Word that things come together forming Christ.
rascal,
That dig was aimed at Tom, and not you. He started it.
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ex10
Mike
Warning......I don't read really long posts. And I discarded the "law of believing" as total bunk before I ever even left TWI. There is no way in this lifetime you will convince me of its validity in my life as a Christian. You see, Mike, I believe it's what the KJV calls a "doctrine of devils," at its worst, and pop psycology myth at its best.
And that's not an over reaction either. It's 3 decades of considering it. So go ahead and post whatever you want. There have been enuff discussions of this topic already. I'm not going there again. I would really like to move on in my life to deeper issues of faith.
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CM
and when we received holy spirit - where did it come from?
btw-i don't see "feeding" in pfal or the bible-please clarify
also the Word-many opinions on what that is
And try not to ignore me like you are doing with the believing subject.
I am not the one to be afraid of. Perfect Love will soon be revealed.
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Mike
CM,
I’m not ignoring you at all. I mentioned above that I see a string of posts that I want to get into soon, and yours is included.
***
Here’s once such place I see feeding being urged.
1 Peter 2:2
“As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:”
The word desire should be treated as a verb and a command. We are commanded to desire the Word.
Here’s another:
Matthew 4:4
“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
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CM
uh....that don't say feeding
what happened to
the word means what says and says what it means?
this was the first question
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Mike
Where do you think it comes from?
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CM
haha-asked you first!
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Mike
Don't you think we BOTH know?!
So why ask?
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CM
no i don't
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Mike
CM,
Surely you can understand my precarious perch here. If I teach you the answer, the ego police will show up wagging their wascally finger at me. I have to play dumb to not offend.
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Tom Strange
Mike said:
Mikey, Mikey, Mikey... I may be 'off topic' as far as the title of the tread goes...but not concerning YOU. The main topic of all of your posts is M-I-K-E...
So I don't think I'm any more off topic when posting on the subject of Mike than you are (since your posts are about Mike)!
And Mike... have you forgotten how you once told/taught us that you had an actual physical Christ growing inside of you?
The main reason you post at these boards is to flatter yourself...
Don't make me come back here and post The Mike Synopsis...
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CM
DOES IT MATTER WHAT OTHERS THINK?
well....yeah.....
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT PFAL SAYS!!!
hmmmm
can't say where the gift of holy spirit comes from....
(i don't think you know btw)
What can you say?
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CM
well....so...it does matter what people THINK
the gift of God...created.....
When? where is created used?
where is God? in Heaven...yeah...
where is Heaven? the real Question.
and there was a war in heaven........
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ex10
I never thought I would stick up for Mike, but really, it is the doctrinal forum, and if Mike wants to try to teach us something here.....what's the harm?
I will never agree with him in this lifetime on PFAL, but if he wants to try and convince me, hey I might listen, I might not.
:mellow:
We all have a voice here. Maybe Mike should have one too? Nobody has to listen, moi included.
At least he's found an outlet for what he thinks.
Maybe that's not so different than the rest of us?
Ohmygosh, I might even vote for a democrat next thing I know.......
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