I’d like to hear what you, doojable say about this, as well as Tom Strange, What the Hey, dmiller, CM, Raf and a any others posting here lately. Just where do you get the idea that “the bible was ever was ‘the word’” to put it in My3Cents’ words. Got any evidence?
Isaiah 28:9-12. The answer to your question lies in the fact that most people simply (and only) want the short, 'quick and easy' abbreviated answer to many of lifes complicated issues and problems. It is also the main reason why we live in a "consumer-mentality" shaped world. There's just these "precepts" that we all want to gloss over and trim out of the way to get to that short abbreviated answer first -
You know, WTH, you're pretty quick to say things about people that you don't even know.
I never asked for a quick or easy answer from Mike. As a matter of fact, I believe that for him to really get this message of his out that it will take considerable time - even MORE so if he persists in this cat and mouse game of bantering about and around the subject.
I think that asking for a research paper isn't asking for a lot. A thesis paper can lend a lot of credibility to his voice. Also, without the constant interruption of each and every detail being debated and debunked, Mike could "have his say."
I don't own these books anymore. if I even could Buy them I'm not sure I'd want to - as things stand now. WHY should I even find out if they are possible to buy? I have not been given any evidence other than some guy I only know as "Mike" ( which may or may not really be his name and not just a handle) says that he has "seen some things" that even when he purports to expound on even a little bit are so clouded with speculation and debate that what he says is "clear as day" is in actuality as opaque and mud.
So, WTh, what made YOU believe that the book you hold and call the Bible is the Word of God and is God-breathed?
In my opinion, many of these arguments about PFAL's relationship to the Bible is like comparing apples to oranges. I thought PFAL was supposed to be an aid to Bible study [in other words it's NOT the Bible]- "designed to set before the reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold…" [in VPW's own words, page 4 of PFAL]. It would make more sense to compare it to other books that also claim to help the reader understand the Bible. There's a lot of them out there. An analogy may illustrate the way I see Bible study aids. The information in the Bible is like a valuable resource [a gold mine]. Books that help me dig for the gold are tools. The tools are not the gold. Some people think their tools are made of gold.
I can't help but think that the people who are so enamored with PFAL are easily impressed or haven't done much "comparison shopping." It's as if they've been going grocery shopping for years at the corner convenience store. They're missing the variety and specials at Costco's or Wal-Mart. This is merely my opinion, of course, but when I compare the PFALbook with other Bible study books I see a WORLD of difference . And to be fair to VPW we ought to just reference the PFAL book and not the class – because he really gets sloppy in the class.
The biggest differences I see between VPW and other books of the same type are: VPW's inconsistency with his use of the keys to biblical interpretation; not citing a bibliography or references – I'd like to read his reference for myself [the issue of VPW's plagiarism is a whole other well-documented exposé as well - - but we'll get back to beating that dead stolen horse some other time]; PFAL discourages critical thinking, ignoring other viewpoints, very rigid mind-set. All this is just my opinion, of course. You'll have to read these other books and compare them yourself like I did – get your own opinion.
The PFAL book is a blend of Bible study aid, Commentary, and Systematic Theology [though very simplistic in all three areas - sort of at the convenience store/bootleg level]. So, I have listed below a few books that I think do a better job [in other words a more effective tool] in those categories:
Bible Study Aid
How to Enjoy the Bible by E.W. Bullinger [hey, it was good enough for VPW]
Understanding the Bible by John R.W. Stott
What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures by Jay E. Adams
How to get the Most out of God's Word by John MacArthur, Jr.
How to Study Your Bible by Kay Arthur
30 Days to Understanding the Bible by Max Anders
Bible Explorer's Guide: How to Understand and Interpret the Bible by John Phillips
Living by the Book by Howard G. Hendricks & William D. Hendricks
Biblical Hermeneutics: A Comprehensive Introduction to Interpreting Scripture by Bruce Corley, Steve W. Lemke, Grant I. Lovejoy
Let the Reader Understand: A Guide to Interpreting and Applying the Bible by Dan McCartney and Charles Clayton
Introduction to Biblical Interpretation by William W. Klein, Craig L. Blomberg, Robert Hubbard
Commentary
The Believer's Bible Commentaryby William MacDonald
The New Bible Commentary: Revised edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer, A.M. Stibbs, D.J. Wiseman
Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary Kenneth L. Barker & John R. Kohlenberger III Consulting Editors
The Bible Knowledge Commentary Editors John F. Walvoord & Roy B. Zuck
Systematic Theology
Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson
Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Gruden
Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof
Understanding Christian Theology Charles R. Swindoll and Roy B. Zuck, General Editors
The above books are tools. No tool is perfect. I like reading other viewpoints. Sometimes I agree – sometimes disagree with the authors. But either way it's great for encouraging thinking.
When time permits, I’d like to work what you said here with what you said in the opening of your thread titled “What is Your Thinking on Interpretation of the Bible?”
On that thread you wrote: “I think some people have the idea that understanding the Bible is simply plugging in these keys and mindlessly unlocking the meaning of any Scripture.”
I remember when I was one of those “some people” you write of. It was a discouraging shock to me to find out rather late in the game (mid 80’s) that the unlocking you speak of took much more.
You got it right. There is no simple sound bite that answers the question of why believe the Bible. It takes deep diving into the Bible for a long time for a person to well formulate this belief. The “something special” of the Bible can only be seen by having a relationship with it for a while, and hopefully with a good, enlightened start in that relationship.
Likewise, I’ve asserted all along that the “something special” of written PFAL can only be seen by having a close relationship with the material, and all of the material.
***
Doojable, it seems you are describing (in post #874) some of the aspects of a relationship your had with your Bible, and one that had a good, enlightened start, having the teaching of PFAL to guide you.
I think this is generally the same thing as My3Cents was describing when he wrote what I reported in my post # 872:
“Me, it made me wonder why I even thought the bible was ever was "the word". And I realized it was because some guy from Ohio (now dead) had told me it was.”
I too arrived at my belief in the Bible from what I learned in PFAL. It took years, and the material was considerably longer than a treatise.
I’m not expecting that any treatise of mine will convince anyone of what only a relationship can convince. For those spiritually already convinced, drawn by the Father, a treatise may help in getting started as well as in comparing notes later on. The idea of a newsletter addressed at the already convinced may be what I turn to next.
I wrote on the “All Nine All the Time, another a.c. slogan.......another discrepancy” thread that zealots distorted a lot of the teaching we received from Dr.
I could see Raf’s vein’s popping on that one, so I know he views me as a zealot.
There was more to ChasUFarley’s post that I would have liked to respond to there, but I refrained. It seems I bring out the derailleur in too many people even when I hold back tight on my PFAL message.
ChasUFarley had written regarding “all nine all the time” thusly:
“I think what happened with this, is that VPW taught it, like White Dove, myself, and others posted - he taught that the nine manifestations are available - you just have to know how to recognize and utilize them. I don't remember him teaching that you use them all at once. I think ZEALOUS people took this saying out of context, and warped it into something where they taught you should OPERATE all nine manifestations AT ALL TIMES - be looking always for occasions to use them, etc.
“Just like people misued "Reaching into Daddy's cookie jar..." to say they were trolling for revelation all the time, which isn't really what VPW taught, as I understood it. It was more God's perrogative if he gave you any revelation at all - it wasn't that he had it for you - like cookies - all the time...
“Again, it was people who placed what came out of VPW's mouth above what the Word said that messed things up - the man was, and by some people, still is, elevated above God and the Word.”
The warping by zealots ended up in what I call TVTs or Twi Verbal Traditions.
This last paragraph quoted here is interesting. I imagine Raf and many others feel that I fall into that category, but I know only too well how many years I had to fight against the tide of zealots to NOT do that very thing... to NOT regard “what came out of VPW's mouth above what the Word said...”
I saw that kind of hero worship long ago and successfully resisted getting caught up in it. It was seductively attractive and there was some pressure behind it, forcing some into this hero worship.
In 1998 I changed, but not in this category of resisting that regarding of every word VPW spoke as above the Word of God. My position is that there were MANY words Dr spoke in error. There were also many truths that came out of the same mouth, and I do look for those.
What changed for me in 1998 is that I FINALLY could answer the question that had slowly emerged in my mind over the years. Whenever I heard the Way Corps motto “It Is Written” I’d ask myself WHERE?
I knew it wasn’t written in my KJV, that THE WORD was not written there, because there were many mistakes there. I knew there were also some smaller number of mistakes in the ancient manuscripts and a large number in any translation.
I needed an absolute authority but I knew that even my wide margin “corrected” version of KJV was WRITTEN BY ME! How could I know I got it all right, and that my correction job was complete enough?
T-Bone, this is what I was looking at in your post on the other thread. You listed a bunch of books you use in your efforts to clean up your KJV, but you didn’t mention the loss of surety that emerges from such efforts, especially when two equally bright scholars (like authors of the books you mentioned) disagree on any one point.
If I wanted surety I had to have SOME kind of reference text to help me in my Biblical research that “I’d never have to back up on” to borrow a phrase.
Due to a number of circumstances lining up together in that year of 1998, I decided that I’d take written PFAL as my only rule for faith and practice. Outside obvious printer and proofreader errors, I decided that every word written there is true and everything else gets lined up with it or tossed out.
The zealots do not take such an arduous course. Most of them were into mouthing things in the extreme for the power play it afforded them. They wanted a cheap way to gain respect and taking an extreme position helped them. They were lazy and self serving. Even the zealots totally ignored Dr’s final (and often repeated prior) instructions to master the written materials.
***
The path I’ve chosen is not easy. It’s not a seductively attractive position, and there is a strong pressure pointing AWAY from it. It takes work to sort out what Dr put into print from all the other things he said.
I may have an extreme stand, but at least I have a text I can place on my Table of Challenge. It weighs something, and can be seen by all. My text is unchanging.
It is written. Who here can really say that but me? I’m about the only one who can point EXACTLY to the texts and say “It is written, that settles it, HERE is the text.”
This is not a popular position, but it’s concrete. Everyone else must say “It WAS written, and I am working on restoring it and getting it into English, so it is written... sort of... with reservations. But I’m real sure of some of it.”
It is written. My zeal is not in my ability to someday determine (with help of my choosing) an acceptable text, as others’ zeal must be. My zeal is for God and in His giving His Word in a tangible English text to sinful men such as I.
You must master PFAL to see if it's truly the case that I distort PFAL. I'll freely admit that what I see in PFAL is different than what you see in it. But then again, our methods of focus differ, as well as the intensity of our focus.
On that same “all nine” thread you wrote: “Since you were mentioning tapes (while having castigated a few of us in the past for doing the exact same thing), I just thought I might bring that to your attention, and you say I didn't *resist*?”
You gottat read context, man.
Raf had seen a hot line I wrote. He posted a quote of it. He then resisted commenting any more to avoid derailing the thread any more. There was context prior to that complaining that it was I who had derailed the thread.
You did not resist the urge to go off on a wild tangent. You were the chief derailleur, but of course I got blamed. Templelady also said far more than she had to keep the thread rolling.
***
Since we’re at a quote from you, can you point out one place where I castigated someone for mentioning tapes. I want you to find the place so I can show you that I was gentle in my correction. If I wasn’t gentle it was because someone was dragging my foot.
You were even more off the wall in your accusations earlier on the thread where you wrote: “There you go mentioning tapes again. Why?????? Everytime one of us does so, you relegate it to the gutter ---“
So, if I do that EVERYTIME, then it should be easy for you to find proof, if your accusation is accurate. But I think it’s not, and I think you will not do the work to prove me right. Your credibility is sagging.
It takes deep diving into the Bible for a long time for a person to well formulate this belief. The “something special” of the Bible can only be seen by having a relationship with it for a while, and hopefully with a good, enlightened start in that relationship.
Likewise, I’ve asserted all along that the “something special” of written PFAL can only be seen by having a close relationship with the material, and all of the material.
but, and...couldn't this be said of any good old book?
or any thing?
what you wrote sounds pretty much like what some old rabbis say about the torah
or even what happens when someone sits for years with something like Tolkien's work
if...there is depth and truth in everything
then the longer you sit with it
the deeper it goes
endlessly, really
especially old old old books
with a lot of lot of lot of rich and diverse tradition and history
Yes, it can be said of other books, that developing a long term relationship with them will tell you a lot more than a studious reading.
But it can also be said of other books that their message is incorrect, wrong, bad or even evil. If such another book does not alert you to the extreme dangers of the spiritual realm, that one can be IMMEDIATELY discarded.
To assume that all the variety and power and interesting phenomena out in the spiritual realm is friendly is very naive. I limit myself and protect myself.
You are unaware of many aspects of written PFAL, such as the seemingly minute differences between the book form and the magazine form of the same chapters. Until you examine all the data you are not in a good position to say if I distort Dr’s writings or if I simply contradict your preliminary understanding of them.
You wrote of “depths to which” I plunge in my efforts, yet you seem to have no awareness of the depths to which YOU have plunged to in your juggling of God’s Word without having an authoritative text. You seem to be unaware of the subtle ego trips involved in thinking that you can find your way through the thicket. I have relinquished my ego and have accepted a text.
This conversation goes back years. I've explained that I do limit myself in what I will learn and absorb.
If you are willing to state that you know that there are great dangers in some spiritual phenomena and ideas then I’ll be pleasantly surprised. It sounds to me that you still advocate all kinds of experimentation with all sorts of phenomena and ideas. I think that’s dangerous, and self-misleading at best. I’d be happy to be wrong on my perception of your position.
It’s in the AC that Dr teaches the “16 Keys to walking in the Spirit” and key #4 is “Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.”
This key #4 is to protect us from error and evil. Many religious people want to skip around the work of five senses, serious study. The reason we were given a written Word is so that we can read about the warnings with our five senses, and so we can see which major ideas and methods are right in God’s eyes.
We need this fives senses text to read from because it takes time and skill to discern good from evil spiritually. Evil will present itself as good and CONVINCINGLY SO, if there isn’t a strong awareness of good and evil from the five senses reading prior to encountering the spiritual counterfeits.
This is the whole story of Jesus being tempted in the wilderness just after he received spirit. He had done the five senses study all his life and was ready for spiritual encounters. He was successful at spotting that the devil was a counterfeit because he had done the necessary five senses work. It takes work, and lazy cosmic cadets are sure to be duped sooner or later.
But, I’d prefer here on this thread (largely because I can’t do it elsewhere) to get into the five senses study of PFAL .... leading later to the spiritual...
***
You wrote: "i hope you know i dont ask you those kinds of things because i want to humiliate you
or save anyone from your doctrine"
Yes, I know you well enough to know those are not your motives. I know you're genuinely excited about other stuff, but I must beg off. I've got my mission.
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sirguessalot
of course, i also realize
that to some pfal adherents and ilk
any notion of inquiring as to greater possibilities
might come across as if i'm some sort of devilish agent
trying to seduce people away from God
or some such thing
if so..
please forgive
but also, if so...
do please reconsider your freedom to ask
cuz this crazy friggin world truly needs you to be BOTH wise AND harmless
and perhaps even more so than ever before
peace...
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CM
just a few right turns
a couple of lefts
and a few more rights and
don't blink cause you'll miss the ramp
since the Word of God is no longer written in stone
other avenues and schools of thought are to be considered
since it is quick and powerful and very sharp
it will make a few quiver
yet still the Mercy Seat is there and Grace and Love
I mean really...when the vail was ripped from top to bottom
didn't that open up some new things to consider?
didn't that reveal anything that was not seen before?
how can we look and see and perceive
the things that God has already done for us.....
yet even further then what was previously seen in the old
as Christ can reach deep into the heart to pull up the good
so can she comfort when the bad is burned before the eye
and it's gone in a moment, a blink of an eye
and it could be quite surprising to witness and live
just a little taste of it goes a long way
and some have seen, yet stopped and taken what they saw,
and put it in stone and killed it's life,
spinning a web of doctrines off of it to further it's grip
leave it be and let it work it's perfect work
and sure we are dust and feelings and human
but this is where He chose to live.....in love
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Tom Strange
awe guys... do I have to take the acid again? ...so soon?
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doojable
Mike - now its your turn....
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What The Hey
Isaiah 28:9-12. The answer to your question lies in the fact that most people simply (and only) want the short, 'quick and easy' abbreviated answer to many of lifes complicated issues and problems. It is also the main reason why we live in a "consumer-mentality" shaped world. There's just these "precepts" that we all want to gloss over and trim out of the way to get to that short abbreviated answer first -
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doojable
You know, WTH, you're pretty quick to say things about people that you don't even know.
I never asked for a quick or easy answer from Mike. As a matter of fact, I believe that for him to really get this message of his out that it will take considerable time - even MORE so if he persists in this cat and mouse game of bantering about and around the subject.
I think that asking for a research paper isn't asking for a lot. A thesis paper can lend a lot of credibility to his voice. Also, without the constant interruption of each and every detail being debated and debunked, Mike could "have his say."
I don't own these books anymore. if I even could Buy them I'm not sure I'd want to - as things stand now. WHY should I even find out if they are possible to buy? I have not been given any evidence other than some guy I only know as "Mike" ( which may or may not really be his name and not just a handle) says that he has "seen some things" that even when he purports to expound on even a little bit are so clouded with speculation and debate that what he says is "clear as day" is in actuality as opaque and mud.
So, WTh, what made YOU believe that the book you hold and call the Bible is the Word of God and is God-breathed?
What's your answerto Mike's question?
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Mike
Sorry to ask and run, folks.
The weather is like summer here and I'm off to work... to be back soon.
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T-Bone
In my opinion, many of these arguments about PFAL's relationship to the Bible is like comparing apples to oranges. I thought PFAL was supposed to be an aid to Bible study [in other words it's NOT the Bible]- "designed to set before the reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold…" [in VPW's own words, page 4 of PFAL]. It would make more sense to compare it to other books that also claim to help the reader understand the Bible. There's a lot of them out there. An analogy may illustrate the way I see Bible study aids. The information in the Bible is like a valuable resource [a gold mine]. Books that help me dig for the gold are tools. The tools are not the gold. Some people think their tools are made of gold.
I can't help but think that the people who are so enamored with PFAL are easily impressed or haven't done much "comparison shopping." It's as if they've been going grocery shopping for years at the corner convenience store. They're missing the variety and specials at Costco's or Wal-Mart. This is merely my opinion, of course, but when I compare the PFAL book with other Bible study books I see a WORLD of difference . And to be fair to VPW we ought to just reference the PFAL book and not the class – because he really gets sloppy in the class.
The biggest differences I see between VPW and other books of the same type are: VPW's inconsistency with his use of the keys to biblical interpretation; not citing a bibliography or references – I'd like to read his reference for myself [the issue of VPW's plagiarism is a whole other well-documented exposé as well - - but we'll get back to beating that dead stolen horse some other time]; PFAL discourages critical thinking, ignoring other viewpoints, very rigid mind-set. All this is just my opinion, of course. You'll have to read these other books and compare them yourself like I did – get your own opinion.
The PFAL book is a blend of Bible study aid, Commentary, and Systematic Theology [though very simplistic in all three areas - sort of at the convenience store/bootleg level]. So, I have listed below a few books that I think do a better job [in other words a more effective tool] in those categories:
Bible Study Aid
How to Enjoy the Bible by E.W. Bullinger [hey, it was good enough for VPW]
Understanding the Bible by John R.W. Stott
What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures by Jay E. Adams
How to get the Most out of God's Word by John MacArthur, Jr.
How to Study Your Bible by Kay Arthur
30 Days to Understanding the Bible by Max Anders
Bible Explorer's Guide: How to Understand and Interpret the Bible by John Phillips
Living by the Book by Howard G. Hendricks & William D. Hendricks
Biblical Hermeneutics: A Comprehensive Introduction to Interpreting Scripture by Bruce Corley, Steve W. Lemke, Grant I. Lovejoy
Let the Reader Understand: A Guide to Interpreting and Applying the Bible by Dan McCartney and Charles Clayton
Introduction to Biblical Interpretation by William W. Klein, Craig L. Blomberg, Robert Hubbard
Commentary
The Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald
The New Bible Commentary: Revised edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer, A.M. Stibbs, D.J. Wiseman
Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary Kenneth L. Barker & John R. Kohlenberger III Consulting Editors
The Bible Knowledge Commentary Editors John F. Walvoord & Roy B. Zuck
Systematic Theology
Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson
Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Gruden
Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof
Understanding Christian Theology Charles R. Swindoll and Roy B. Zuck, General Editors
The above books are tools. No tool is perfect. I like reading other viewpoints. Sometimes I agree – sometimes disagree with the authors. But either way it's great for encouraging thinking.
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Mike
T-Bone,
When time permits, I’d like to work what you said here with what you said in the opening of your thread titled “What is Your Thinking on Interpretation of the Bible?”
On that thread you wrote: “I think some people have the idea that understanding the Bible is simply plugging in these keys and mindlessly unlocking the meaning of any Scripture.”
I remember when I was one of those “some people” you write of. It was a discouraging shock to me to find out rather late in the game (mid 80’s) that the unlocking you speak of took much more.
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Mike
What the Hey,
You got it right. There is no simple sound bite that answers the question of why believe the Bible. It takes deep diving into the Bible for a long time for a person to well formulate this belief. The “something special” of the Bible can only be seen by having a relationship with it for a while, and hopefully with a good, enlightened start in that relationship.
Likewise, I’ve asserted all along that the “something special” of written PFAL can only be seen by having a close relationship with the material, and all of the material.
***
Doojable, it seems you are describing (in post #874) some of the aspects of a relationship your had with your Bible, and one that had a good, enlightened start, having the teaching of PFAL to guide you.
I think this is generally the same thing as My3Cents was describing when he wrote what I reported in my post # 872:
“Me, it made me wonder why I even thought the bible was ever was "the word". And I realized it was because some guy from Ohio (now dead) had told me it was.”
I too arrived at my belief in the Bible from what I learned in PFAL. It took years, and the material was considerably longer than a treatise.
I’m not expecting that any treatise of mine will convince anyone of what only a relationship can convince. For those spiritually already convinced, drawn by the Father, a treatise may help in getting started as well as in comparing notes later on. The idea of a newsletter addressed at the already convinced may be what I turn to next.
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Mike
I wrote on the “All Nine All the Time, another a.c. slogan.......another discrepancy” thread that zealots distorted a lot of the teaching we received from Dr.
I could see Raf’s vein’s popping on that one, so I know he views me as a zealot.
There was more to ChasUFarley’s post that I would have liked to respond to there, but I refrained. It seems I bring out the derailleur in too many people even when I hold back tight on my PFAL message.
ChasUFarley had written regarding “all nine all the time” thusly:
“I think what happened with this, is that VPW taught it, like White Dove, myself, and others posted - he taught that the nine manifestations are available - you just have to know how to recognize and utilize them. I don't remember him teaching that you use them all at once. I think ZEALOUS people took this saying out of context, and warped it into something where they taught you should OPERATE all nine manifestations AT ALL TIMES - be looking always for occasions to use them, etc.
“Just like people misued "Reaching into Daddy's cookie jar..." to say they were trolling for revelation all the time, which isn't really what VPW taught, as I understood it. It was more God's perrogative if he gave you any revelation at all - it wasn't that he had it for you - like cookies - all the time...
“Again, it was people who placed what came out of VPW's mouth above what the Word said that messed things up - the man was, and by some people, still is, elevated above God and the Word.”
The warping by zealots ended up in what I call TVTs or Twi Verbal Traditions.
This last paragraph quoted here is interesting. I imagine Raf and many others feel that I fall into that category, but I know only too well how many years I had to fight against the tide of zealots to NOT do that very thing... to NOT regard “what came out of VPW's mouth above what the Word said...”
I saw that kind of hero worship long ago and successfully resisted getting caught up in it. It was seductively attractive and there was some pressure behind it, forcing some into this hero worship.
In 1998 I changed, but not in this category of resisting that regarding of every word VPW spoke as above the Word of God. My position is that there were MANY words Dr spoke in error. There were also many truths that came out of the same mouth, and I do look for those.
What changed for me in 1998 is that I FINALLY could answer the question that had slowly emerged in my mind over the years. Whenever I heard the Way Corps motto “It Is Written” I’d ask myself WHERE?
I knew it wasn’t written in my KJV, that THE WORD was not written there, because there were many mistakes there. I knew there were also some smaller number of mistakes in the ancient manuscripts and a large number in any translation.
I needed an absolute authority but I knew that even my wide margin “corrected” version of KJV was WRITTEN BY ME! How could I know I got it all right, and that my correction job was complete enough?
T-Bone, this is what I was looking at in your post on the other thread. You listed a bunch of books you use in your efforts to clean up your KJV, but you didn’t mention the loss of surety that emerges from such efforts, especially when two equally bright scholars (like authors of the books you mentioned) disagree on any one point.
If I wanted surety I had to have SOME kind of reference text to help me in my Biblical research that “I’d never have to back up on” to borrow a phrase.
Due to a number of circumstances lining up together in that year of 1998, I decided that I’d take written PFAL as my only rule for faith and practice. Outside obvious printer and proofreader errors, I decided that every word written there is true and everything else gets lined up with it or tossed out.
The zealots do not take such an arduous course. Most of them were into mouthing things in the extreme for the power play it afforded them. They wanted a cheap way to gain respect and taking an extreme position helped them. They were lazy and self serving. Even the zealots totally ignored Dr’s final (and often repeated prior) instructions to master the written materials.
***
The path I’ve chosen is not easy. It’s not a seductively attractive position, and there is a strong pressure pointing AWAY from it. It takes work to sort out what Dr put into print from all the other things he said.
I may have an extreme stand, but at least I have a text I can place on my Table of Challenge. It weighs something, and can be seen by all. My text is unchanging.
It is written. Who here can really say that but me? I’m about the only one who can point EXACTLY to the texts and say “It is written, that settles it, HERE is the text.”
This is not a popular position, but it’s concrete. Everyone else must say “It WAS written, and I am working on restoring it and getting it into English, so it is written... sort of... with reservations. But I’m real sure of some of it.”
It is written. My zeal is not in my ability to someday determine (with help of my choosing) an acceptable text, as others’ zeal must be. My zeal is for God and in His giving His Word in a tangible English text to sinful men such as I.
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Raf
I'll say it here:
Mike, you are a zealot who has distorted the teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille.
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Mike
Raf,
You must master PFAL to see if it's truly the case that I distort PFAL. I'll freely admit that what I see in PFAL is different than what you see in it. But then again, our methods of focus differ, as well as the intensity of our focus.
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dmiller,
On that same “all nine” thread you wrote: “Since you were mentioning tapes (while having castigated a few of us in the past for doing the exact same thing), I just thought I might bring that to your attention, and you say I didn't *resist*?”
You gottat read context, man.
Raf had seen a hot line I wrote. He posted a quote of it. He then resisted commenting any more to avoid derailing the thread any more. There was context prior to that complaining that it was I who had derailed the thread.
You did not resist the urge to go off on a wild tangent. You were the chief derailleur, but of course I got blamed. Templelady also said far more than she had to keep the thread rolling.
***
Since we’re at a quote from you, can you point out one place where I castigated someone for mentioning tapes. I want you to find the place so I can show you that I was gentle in my correction. If I wasn’t gentle it was because someone was dragging my foot.
You were even more off the wall in your accusations earlier on the thread where you wrote: “There you go mentioning tapes again. Why?????? Everytime one of us does so, you relegate it to the gutter ---“
So, if I do that EVERYTIME, then it should be easy for you to find proof, if your accusation is accurate. But I think it’s not, and I think you will not do the work to prove me right. Your credibility is sagging.
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Raf
Mike,
You need not master PFAL to see the depths to which you'll plunge to turn it into what it declares itself not to be.
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sirguessalot
but, and...couldn't this be said of any good old book?
or any thing?
what you wrote sounds pretty much like what some old rabbis say about the torah
or even what happens when someone sits for years with something like Tolkien's work
if...there is depth and truth in everything
then the longer you sit with it
the deeper it goes
endlessly, really
especially old old old books
with a lot of lot of lot of rich and diverse tradition and history
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sirguessalot
the way some rabbis describe it
its the divine romance with sacred text
at first, all you see is her fingertips peeking out from layers of robes
but as you sit, meekly, a little here and a little there
more and more layers come off
until, after many years, the deeper naked text is revealed
its like there are many many books in one
and we must go through many disillusionments with the text
though each one was necessary
point being...
if you dont sit long enough
you wont see much at all
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Mike
sirguessalot,
Yes, it can be said of other books, that developing a long term relationship with them will tell you a lot more than a studious reading.
But it can also be said of other books that their message is incorrect, wrong, bad or even evil. If such another book does not alert you to the extreme dangers of the spiritual realm, that one can be IMMEDIATELY discarded.
To assume that all the variety and power and interesting phenomena out in the spiritual realm is friendly is very naive. I limit myself and protect myself.
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Raf,
You are unaware of many aspects of written PFAL, such as the seemingly minute differences between the book form and the magazine form of the same chapters. Until you examine all the data you are not in a good position to say if I distort Dr’s writings or if I simply contradict your preliminary understanding of them.
You wrote of “depths to which” I plunge in my efforts, yet you seem to have no awareness of the depths to which YOU have plunged to in your juggling of God’s Word without having an authoritative text. You seem to be unaware of the subtle ego trips involved in thinking that you can find your way through the thicket. I have relinquished my ego and have accepted a text.
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sirguessalot
it seems your standard is extreme spiritual danger and fear then, Mike
you, being a servent of God...are you still afraid of the devil and death?
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sirguessalot
and hey, Mike
i hope you know i dont ask you those kinds of things because i want to humiliate you
or save anyone from your doctrine
etc
i really like you a lot, and think you can and are quite brilliant at times
and i just think it sucks at how much you require of others in order to fellowship with you
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Mike
I recognize extreme spiritual danger and fear as enemies.
But you draw me WAY beyond my position, by saying my "standard is extreme spiritual danger and fear"
I'll say it again, there is evil on earth BECAUSE there was evil in heaven.
I prefer to avoid evil, and giving it another name or redefining it wont change it's nature. We need a standard to tell us what to avoid.
To say that all spiritual phenomina are good is naive and dangerous.
***
I appreciate your congeniality greatly.
But fellowshipping with me, if it's the deep me, means working written PFAL together. It's you who back off of what is the deep me.
I'd be happy to talk and even do a little art together with you, though.
But I'm not interested in backing off my posiotion for some friendlies.
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sirguessalot
who said this, Mike? it was sure as hell not me
anyway, sorry man
i probably never should have posted anything on this thread
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Mike
Todd,
This conversation goes back years. I've explained that I do limit myself in what I will learn and absorb.
If you are willing to state that you know that there are great dangers in some spiritual phenomena and ideas then I’ll be pleasantly surprised. It sounds to me that you still advocate all kinds of experimentation with all sorts of phenomena and ideas. I think that’s dangerous, and self-misleading at best. I’d be happy to be wrong on my perception of your position.
It’s in the AC that Dr teaches the “16 Keys to walking in the Spirit” and key #4 is “Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.”
This key #4 is to protect us from error and evil. Many religious people want to skip around the work of five senses, serious study. The reason we were given a written Word is so that we can read about the warnings with our five senses, and so we can see which major ideas and methods are right in God’s eyes.
We need this fives senses text to read from because it takes time and skill to discern good from evil spiritually. Evil will present itself as good and CONVINCINGLY SO, if there isn’t a strong awareness of good and evil from the five senses reading prior to encountering the spiritual counterfeits.
This is the whole story of Jesus being tempted in the wilderness just after he received spirit. He had done the five senses study all his life and was ready for spiritual encounters. He was successful at spotting that the devil was a counterfeit because he had done the necessary five senses work. It takes work, and lazy cosmic cadets are sure to be duped sooner or later.
But, I’d prefer here on this thread (largely because I can’t do it elsewhere) to get into the five senses study of PFAL .... leading later to the spiritual...
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You wrote: "i hope you know i dont ask you those kinds of things because i want to humiliate you
or save anyone from your doctrine"
Yes, I know you well enough to know those are not your motives. I know you're genuinely excited about other stuff, but I must beg off. I've got my mission.
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sirguessalot
oh, ok
yes, there are great spiritual dangers in life, including spiritual phenom, plus plus plus
there are things i would call devilish doctrines, satanic influence, and spirits galore in this dark and twisted crazy world
so yes, you are more wrong than you could possibly know on that
but i dont think you care to hear what i think about all that, doctrinally, or practically
but i do hope you are pleasantly surprised
:)
and about the other stuff...
i think i'll bow out of the thread, like i said
unless you ask me
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Mike
I'm pleasantly surprised.
...not at you bowing out, but at your stating that there is evil in the spiritual.
***
For this particular thread I'm trying to decide where I want to go next with it, so in the meantime feel free to derail.
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