According to a reconstruction of your own memory you have thrown together an Apparent Contradiction. I pointed out to you some previous flaws in you memory of the mystery. I remember my own sloppy handling of the mystery as to what was a secret and what was not a secret. We all need to learn to try and not wing it on these things. Eve's mistake was to not stick with the exact words she was taught.
Again -- I demand the texts and the time to work them.
If with the texts in hand I see an AC, I continue to work the texts until the AC evaporates, no matter how long it takes. That’s what we were taught. I will not play it your way. I will try to help you over the AC, but I will not allow any AC to derail my focus. These things take time.
I outlined several possible ways to START looking into this, and resorting back to memory is not one of them. We need to read EVERYTHING in PFAL on this topic and then refrain from human reason according to BTMS page 23.
There is an entire chapter in the PFAL book titled "The Unforgivable Sin" AND another one of the same title in WWAY. There is a large chapter in GMWD on the Mystery. That's they way to proceed.
Just from the KJV we know that Jesus knew about the new birth before Pentecost.
Have you even looked at how Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus did NOT know about the new birth?
John 3 Â
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 Â The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Â Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Â Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Â Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 Â That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Â Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 Â The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Â Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Â Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
So we can also add into the mix all the PFAL places where Dr handles these verses. It's work. It takes time.
***
Now, I have to get to doojable as promised. I can do only one thing at a time. This will give you time to find the texts from which you are paraphrasing.
lol...typical to manufacture something that is not there
such is pfal
according to pfal the only thing to counterfeit would be Gen 3:15.
"the seed of the woman"
which vpw teaches is God creating soul life in Mary
taught be a dirty old man who mostly had sex on his mind
-------
so Cain was of that wicked one
doesn't say born of the seed of the devil
doesn't say that anywhere about anyone
failure to understand spiritual birth is the problem
and the choices that can still be made after that birth
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. 13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Good point. If the new birth was part of the mystery, and the mystery was not known before it was revealed to Paul, then how is it Satan managed to counterfeit it centuries before he knew about it? Very interesting indeed.
To which Mike replies:
And why must the counterfeit always be after the fact?
Mike,
I think this statement is characteristic of the reckless way you handle the things we say, the things the Bible says, and the things PFAL says. You change and twist words around all the time, and rip them out of their contexts to bolster your flawed opinion.
I did not say a counterfeit must be after the fact. I said a counterfeit must be after knowledge of the fact, and that's self-evident. You cannot counterfeit something if (a) it hasn't happened, and (b) you don't know it's going to happen.
Your whole "counterfeit dollar bill plans" is irrelevant to the question I asked (however, some of the other things you mentioned go directly to the point I was trying to make).
I think (as you apparently do) the "new birth" was known long before the mystery was revealed, as was Christ in you (after all, Jesus explicitly mentioned that concept long before Paul). The only question is, when? When was it first made known? If it's first made known in the OT scriptures, then Satan can only counterfeit it AFTER it is revealed.
Honest question: Does Wierwille write anywhere that Cain was born of the seed of the serpent? I know this as TVT ;), but I don't remember reading it anywhere, nor do I care enough to look it up (because I think Wierwille got that whole concept wrong to begin with).
According to a reconstruction of your own memory you have thrown together an Apparent Contradiction. I pointed out to you some previous flaws in you memory of the mystery. I remember my own sloppy handling of the mystery as to what was a secret and what was not a secret. We all need to learn to try and not wing it on these things. Eve's mistake was to not stick with the exact words she was taught.
Again -- I demand the texts and the time to work them.
If with the texts in hand I see an AC, I continue to work the texts until the AC evaporates, no matter how long it takes. That’s what we were taught.
I will not play it your way.
I will try to help you over the AC, but I will not allow any AC to derail my focus. These things take time.
Excuse me??? "Play it my way"??? Is this a game to you?? What you are asking is that we put down the bible, and peruse docvic's works instead. You are asking us to *play it YOUR way*, and NOT affording any opposition to the contrary.
Now -- you are a dyed-in-the-wool-cult-leader-supporter, and I can appreciate that (fer what it's worth), but when you talk to us, you had BEST be able to accept our viewpoints sans vpw.
Docvic spun a good yarn. It was his meal ticket. He spun it good enough to enjoy caviar while his followers were eating tuna fish.
You are blowing off what I quoted from docvic about formed, made, and created with so much in-difference. You have an opinion, and you aren't going to back off of it, regardless of what I, or anyone else says.
So here's the deal --- No -- I won't *play it your way*. I was willing to start perusing the pfal books, to give you an answer about your questions, but I see now that it would be useless.
You have become kinder, and less abrasive in your recent posts, but your thinking stinks.
(check your premises --- start by looking in the lower level of any outhouse.)
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Well…here goes! I'm gonna take the plunge and become the new guy! If it's a breech of protocol to jump in like this, I'm sure y'all will instruct me more perfectly – albeit gently – and with the love of God.
I have noticed and welcome the increased civility on this thread and am encouraged by it. You won't find me bashing anybody, I just want to try to get at the truth and learn. If it EVER seems otherwise – please give me the benefit of the doubt and consider that I must be trying to be funny.
Besides, it really is y'all's fault that I've chosen this thread for my first post here at GSC. This wrong seed/counterfeit topic has become for me like somebody yelling, "Shave and a hair cut…" in the proximity of a 'Toon!
Now to my thinking, not my conclusion. Sometimes just rephrasing a problem helps my thinker:
Why isn't what Adam had in the soul life (progeny-begetting) department enough to have given the adversary his idea for his copy job? Adam was the former God of this world who was quite different than man as people have come to consistently think of man (mortal, subject to death) – the replacement God of this world observed Adam having sons - and that even after Adam's fall - which required seed. By copying the capability God had built into Adam, wouldn't that constitute copying (counterfeiting) what God had done?
Perhaps the adversary thought, "God didn't begin by utilizing seed with Adam in the holy spirit category – and that's where God blew it. Now, if I just use this seed concept with unholy spirit…"
Even a perfect copy is not the thing copied. A counterfeit is usually (but, I suppose not necessarily) a less than perfect copy. But it is ALWAYS illegitimate. The hallmark of a counterfeit is that it's from the wrong source.
Known/Knowable:
Cain's birth - seed from Adam - soul life - Adam's tupos - sin/death
Wrong seed birth - counterfeit seed of adversary - unholy spirit - Devil's tupos - hate
Hidden/Later revealed:
"The Great Mystery: What It Is
The great mystery was that the "Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body" (Ephesians 3:6),
and that it is "Christ in you" which is "the riches of the glory of this mystery" (Colossians 1:27).
This is the Church, the called out from both Jew and Gentile, making one new man, a new body in Him."
From GMWD, p194
The seed was to be 'Christ in them', ONE new man from many Jews and many Greeks. Yes, there was nothing like this seed ever before. But, the new birth (seed from the Holy Spirit) was the 'type of vehicle' part of the mystery, and not the hidden part of the mystery.
"Once the timing of the revelation of the mystery is clear, the essential question remains: What is the mystery? Ephesians 3:6: That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
It was no mystery that the Gentiles would be blessed under Abraham's and David's ministries and during Israel's reign. Examples of the Gentiles' being blessed are scattered throughout the Old Testament. But the Old Testament does not give the slightest inkling that the Gentiles would ever be fellowheirs or joint-heirs, "of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel." The revelation of the Gentiles being fellowheirs in Christ was, to say the least, revolutionary news."
TNDC, pp12,13
Are we looking at Christ IN you when the greatness of the mystery (secret) is CHRIST in you - and that it would include GENTILES? I guess I said all that to say this. Doesn't the quality which makes it counterfeit have to do with the permanence of the nature of seed rather than the kind of seed itself?
Adam was the former God of this world who was quite different than man as people have come to consistently think of man (mortal, subject to death) – the replacement God of this world observed Adam having sons - and that even after Adam's fall - which required seed. By copying the capability God had built into Adam, wouldn't that constitute copying (counterfeiting) what God had done?
No, it wouldn't (if you follow the docvic line of thought).
Counterfeiting, imitating, duplicating, replicating... point is, the genuine has to exist or be known before the alternative can.
Hey, Somebody, good post. And welcome.
Doesn't the quality which makes it counterfeit have to do with the permanence of the nature of seed rather than the kind of seed itself?
According to Wierwille, the permanence of the seed of the serpent is as permanent as holy spirit seed. That's my recollection, anyway. I'm sure Mike or What the Hey will correct me if I'm mistaken.
Mike, I've always acknowledged a distinction between TVTs and what's actually written in the books. That's why the actual errors list only cites actual errors that are in the books.
Now -- the point I was trying to make -- was that docvic basically taught that the birthday of the *church* (as we know it today), was on the day of Pentecost, when man FIRST had the *availibility* to have Spirit WITHIN, RATHER THAN UPON. He also said that if Satan had known what God had up His sleeve, Satan would never have had Christ crucified, kinda saying in the same breath that Satan never knew about spirit WITHIN, vs. UPON.
OK, I went digging and found this:
PFAL Film seg 28
"And the Church of the Body is the greatest secret in the whole
world. It is such a tremendous secret, such a tremendous mystery had
Satan known what I'm going to teach you now he never would have
crucified the Lord Jesus Christ. He would have allowed him to live had
he known the mystery or the secret of the Church, the Body of Christ."
"the mystery or the secret of the Church, the Body of Christ"
and further on...
"You see, this Church of the Body is called in the Word of God the
Church of Grace. This Church of Grace began on the day of Pentecost
when people were first born again. You could not be born again until it
was available. It was not available until the day of Pentecost. Jesus
Christ came to make it available but it was not available until the day
of Pentecost. On the day of Pentecost they were born again of God's
Spirit. That was the Church of Grace where they were called out from
both Jew and Gentile believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, it made up the
Body of Christ which is the Church of God."
"You could not be born again [with the seed of Christ] until it [the seed of Christ]
was available."
and then almost at the end of seg 28...
"This is the greatest secret in the whole world--the Church of the
Body of Christ to which you and I belong. Had Satan known this he never
would have crucified the Lord of Glory. But he didn't know it so he
crucified him and God sent the power of the holy spirit on the day of
Pentecost. And when God sent this power men and women were born again
for the first time and they had Christ in them the hope of glory!"
"born again [via the seed of Christ] for the first time and they had Christ in them"
GMWD, p 198
"This was the great mystery, 'which none of the princes of this world knew.'
The prince of this world is Satan. Had he and his chief devil spirits known
the great mystery 'they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' Satan
would have preferred a living Jesus Christ in one place at a time rather
than Christ Jesus living in every born-again believer. Every born-again
believer has Christ in him and is capable of doing the work that Christ did;
besides, believers can lead others into the new birth,"
TNDC, pp14,15
"The mystery, so important that it was kept secret since the foundation of
the world, is that all born-again believers, Jews and Gentiles, would be
fellow-heirs of Christ and that Christ would be in every one of them. Imagine
that! When Jesus Christ was here upon earth, He could only be at one place
at one time. But after He ascended into heaven, and God had given the power
of the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost, then Christ could be in every
born-again believer. Wherever a believer is, there Christ is present. Had
the devil known this mystery he would never have crucified Jesus. Through
Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension, power hitherto unknown in history
was made available. The devil was totally unaware of God's plan, as told
in I Corinthians,"
As I understand this, he's saying the big problem for Satan according to PFAL teachingwas not about spirit within vs upon, it was a whole mess of believers all operatingpower all over the place and pinning old satan's ears to the wall! Yeah!!!
Another part of the explanation could be that Satan did know about the concept of a new birth as far back as Genesis, but did not know that he would make it possible by crucifying Jesus. That seems more in line with what the verse is saying anyway.
Anyway, interesting discussion.
I still don't believe in an unforgivable sin after Jesus paid the price for all sin.
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doojable
Mike,
I'm hurt :(
heartbroken :(
you keep savng my posts to answer last :(
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Mike
doojable,
I was afraid Tom would say the same thing.
I'm sorry. I'll try to put you next.
Right now I'm getting sleepy.
Hey! Cheer up. You're last but certainly not LEAST! It's in the CLASS!
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dmiller
Sorry Mike. I don't buy that, and neither should you. Docvic taught that if
"The Adversary had known the greatness of Christ in you, the new birth, he would not have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ".
According to docvic, this thing was a SECRET. Not known by anyone, never revealed, and not even a hint of what was to come.
Again -- I ask -- how can something be counterfeited, before anyone knows it exists??
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Mike
I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
According to a reconstruction of your own memory you have thrown together an Apparent Contradiction. I pointed out to you some previous flaws in you memory of the mystery. I remember my own sloppy handling of the mystery as to what was a secret and what was not a secret. We all need to learn to try and not wing it on these things. Eve's mistake was to not stick with the exact words she was taught.
Again -- I demand the texts and the time to work them.
If with the texts in hand I see an AC, I continue to work the texts until the AC evaporates, no matter how long it takes. That’s what we were taught. I will not play it your way. I will try to help you over the AC, but I will not allow any AC to derail my focus. These things take time.
I outlined several possible ways to START looking into this, and resorting back to memory is not one of them. We need to read EVERYTHING in PFAL on this topic and then refrain from human reason according to BTMS page 23.
There is an entire chapter in the PFAL book titled "The Unforgivable Sin" AND another one of the same title in WWAY. There is a large chapter in GMWD on the Mystery. That's they way to proceed.
Just from the KJV we know that Jesus knew about the new birth before Pentecost.
Have you even looked at how Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus did NOT know about the new birth?
John 3 Â
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 Â The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Â Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Â Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Â Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 Â That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Â Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 Â The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Â Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Â Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
So we can also add into the mix all the PFAL places where Dr handles these verses. It's work. It takes time.
***
Now, I have to get to doojable as promised. I can do only one thing at a time. This will give you time to find the texts from which you are paraphrasing.
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CM
lol...typical to manufacture something that is not there
such is pfal
according to pfal the only thing to counterfeit would be Gen 3:15.
"the seed of the woman"
which vpw teaches is God creating soul life in Mary
taught be a dirty old man who mostly had sex on his mind
-------
so Cain was of that wicked one
doesn't say born of the seed of the devil
doesn't say that anywhere about anyone
failure to understand spiritual birth is the problem
and the choices that can still be made after that birth
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. 13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
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CM
speaking of the enmity
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
here is the enmity
the flesh against the spirit
the 2 "seeds" at enmity
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Raf
To which Mike replies:
Mike,
I think this statement is characteristic of the reckless way you handle the things we say, the things the Bible says, and the things PFAL says. You change and twist words around all the time, and rip them out of their contexts to bolster your flawed opinion.
I did not say a counterfeit must be after the fact. I said a counterfeit must be after knowledge of the fact, and that's self-evident. You cannot counterfeit something if (a) it hasn't happened, and (b) you don't know it's going to happen.
Your whole "counterfeit dollar bill plans" is irrelevant to the question I asked (however, some of the other things you mentioned go directly to the point I was trying to make).
I think (as you apparently do) the "new birth" was known long before the mystery was revealed, as was Christ in you (after all, Jesus explicitly mentioned that concept long before Paul). The only question is, when? When was it first made known? If it's first made known in the OT scriptures, then Satan can only counterfeit it AFTER it is revealed.
Honest question: Does Wierwille write anywhere that Cain was born of the seed of the serpent? I know this as TVT ;), but I don't remember reading it anywhere, nor do I care enough to look it up (because I think Wierwille got that whole concept wrong to begin with).
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Mike
Raf,
We all have a lot of reading to do on this subject.
I'm grateful to see that you discern between TVTs and the books.
I'm also looking into the concept of counterfeit and does it even apply to this topic.
I'm keying off the idea of counterfeit money being PASSABLE.
There seems to be a lack of that idea of something being PASSED as genuine that is not,
if we speak of the devil as "counterfeiting" the new birth.
Just a thought, as I return to working on about 4 or 5 doojable posts that got lost in the shuffle.
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CM
We all have a lot of reading to do on this subject
KNOCK YOURSELF OUT...LOL
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dmiller
Excuse me??? "Play it my way"??? Is this a game to you?? What you are asking is that we put down the bible, and peruse docvic's works instead. You are asking us to *play it YOUR way*, and NOT affording any opposition to the contrary.
Now -- you are a dyed-in-the-wool-cult-leader-supporter, and I can appreciate that (fer what it's worth), but when you talk to us, you had BEST be able to accept our viewpoints sans vpw.
Docvic spun a good yarn. It was his meal ticket. He spun it good enough to enjoy caviar while his followers were eating tuna fish.
You are blowing off what I quoted from docvic about formed, made, and created with so much in-difference. You have an opinion, and you aren't going to back off of it, regardless of what I, or anyone else says.
So here's the deal --- No -- I won't *play it your way*. I was willing to start perusing the pfal books, to give you an answer about your questions, but I see now that it would be useless.
You have become kinder, and less abrasive in your recent posts, but your thinking stinks.
(check your premises --- start by looking in the lower level of any outhouse.)
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Mike
... my thinking STINKS huh!
Of course, you know , THIS MEANS WAR!
Just kidding. I'm preoccuped but came to read a little.
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CM
anyways..back to this
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
what are these seeds?
i propose that the seed of the woman is spirit
and the seed of the serpent is the carnal mind
furthermore this is within every person
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Somebody
DRUM ROLL!! – Cymbal clash! (pratfall)
Hi everyone!
Well…here goes! I'm gonna take the plunge and become the new guy! If it's a breech of protocol to jump in like this, I'm sure y'all will instruct me more perfectly – albeit gently – and with the love of God.
I have noticed and welcome the increased civility on this thread and am encouraged by it. You won't find me bashing anybody, I just want to try to get at the truth and learn. If it EVER seems otherwise – please give me the benefit of the doubt and consider that I must be trying to be funny.
Besides, it really is y'all's fault that I've chosen this thread for my first post here at GSC. This wrong seed/counterfeit topic has become for me like somebody yelling, "Shave and a hair cut…" in the proximity of a 'Toon!
Now to my thinking, not my conclusion. Sometimes just rephrasing a problem helps my thinker:
Why isn't what Adam had in the soul life (progeny-begetting) department enough to have given the adversary his idea for his copy job? Adam was the former God of this world who was quite different than man as people have come to consistently think of man (mortal, subject to death) – the replacement God of this world observed Adam having sons - and that even after Adam's fall - which required seed. By copying the capability God had built into Adam, wouldn't that constitute copying (counterfeiting) what God had done?
Perhaps the adversary thought, "God didn't begin by utilizing seed with Adam in the holy spirit category – and that's where God blew it. Now, if I just use this seed concept with unholy spirit…"
Even a perfect copy is not the thing copied. A counterfeit is usually (but, I suppose not necessarily) a less than perfect copy. But it is ALWAYS illegitimate. The hallmark of a counterfeit is that it's from the wrong source.
Known/Knowable:
Cain's birth - seed from Adam - soul life - Adam's tupos - sin/death
Wrong seed birth - counterfeit seed of adversary - unholy spirit - Devil's tupos - hate
Hidden/Later revealed:
"The Great Mystery: What It Is
The great mystery was that the "Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body" (Ephesians 3:6),
and that it is "Christ in you" which is "the riches of the glory of this mystery" (Colossians 1:27).
This is the Church, the called out from both Jew and Gentile, making one new man, a new body in Him."
From GMWD, p194
The seed was to be 'Christ in them', ONE new man from many Jews and many Greeks. Yes, there was nothing like this seed ever before. But, the new birth (seed from the Holy Spirit) was the 'type of vehicle' part of the mystery, and not the hidden part of the mystery.
"Once the timing of the revelation of the mystery is clear, the essential question remains: What is the mystery? Ephesians 3:6: That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
It was no mystery that the Gentiles would be blessed under Abraham's and David's ministries and during Israel's reign. Examples of the Gentiles' being blessed are scattered throughout the Old Testament. But the Old Testament does not give the slightest inkling that the Gentiles would ever be fellowheirs or joint-heirs, "of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel." The revelation of the Gentiles being fellowheirs in Christ was, to say the least, revolutionary news."
TNDC, pp12,13
Are we looking at Christ IN you when the greatness of the mystery (secret) is CHRIST in you - and that it would include GENTILES? I guess I said all that to say this. Doesn't the quality which makes it counterfeit have to do with the permanence of the nature of seed rather than the kind of seed itself?
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dmiller
Hey there, Somebody. Welcome to GreaseSpot. :)
Your signature line is hilarious (as well as all too true).
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dmiller
No, it wouldn't (if you follow the docvic line of thought).
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Mike
Hey!
I must have my settings mis-adusted.
I don't see any signature at all on Somebody's post.
What do I need to change?
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dmiller
You don't *see* a lot of things posted here. What else is new?? :( :unsure: :(
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Tom Strange
My Controls - Options (lower left corner) - Manage Board Settings
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Raf
Mike,
Counterfeiting, imitating, duplicating, replicating... point is, the genuine has to exist or be known before the alternative can.
Hey, Somebody, good post. And welcome.
According to Wierwille, the permanence of the seed of the serpent is as permanent as holy spirit seed. That's my recollection, anyway. I'm sure Mike or What the Hey will correct me if I'm mistaken.
Mike, I've always acknowledged a distinction between TVTs and what's actually written in the books. That's why the actual errors list only cites actual errors that are in the books.
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Somebody
Well, I feel welcome! Thanks Raf, dmiller, and Mike.
For Mike:
Click on 'My Controls'
On the Menu to the left, scroll down to the 'Options' heading and choose
'Board Settings'
Once there, you'll find your signature setting. This board software is really
nice!
===================================================================
dmiller
OK, I went digging and found this:
PFAL Film seg 28
"And the Church of the Body is the greatest secret in the whole
world. It is such a tremendous secret, such a tremendous mystery had
Satan known what I'm going to teach you now he never would have
crucified the Lord Jesus Christ. He would have allowed him to live had
he known the mystery or the secret of the Church, the Body of Christ."
"the mystery or the secret of the Church, the Body of Christ"
and further on...
"You see, this Church of the Body is called in the Word of God the
Church of Grace. This Church of Grace began on the day of Pentecost
when people were first born again. You could not be born again until it
was available. It was not available until the day of Pentecost. Jesus
Christ came to make it available but it was not available until the day
of Pentecost. On the day of Pentecost they were born again of God's
Spirit. That was the Church of Grace where they were called out from
both Jew and Gentile believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, it made up the
Body of Christ which is the Church of God."
"You could not be born again [with the seed of Christ] until it [the seed of Christ]
was available."
and then almost at the end of seg 28...
"This is the greatest secret in the whole world--the Church of the
Body of Christ to which you and I belong. Had Satan known this he never
would have crucified the Lord of Glory. But he didn't know it so he
crucified him and God sent the power of the holy spirit on the day of
Pentecost. And when God sent this power men and women were born again
for the first time and they had Christ in them the hope of glory!"
"born again [via the seed of Christ] for the first time and they had Christ in them"
GMWD, p 198
"This was the great mystery, 'which none of the princes of this world knew.'
The prince of this world is Satan. Had he and his chief devil spirits known
the great mystery 'they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' Satan
would have preferred a living Jesus Christ in one place at a time rather
than Christ Jesus living in every born-again believer. Every born-again
believer has Christ in him and is capable of doing the work that Christ did;
besides, believers can lead others into the new birth,"
TNDC, pp14,15
"The mystery, so important that it was kept secret since the foundation of
the world, is that all born-again believers, Jews and Gentiles, would be
fellow-heirs of Christ and that Christ would be in every one of them. Imagine
that! When Jesus Christ was here upon earth, He could only be at one place
at one time. But after He ascended into heaven, and God had given the power
of the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost, then Christ could be in every
born-again believer. Wherever a believer is, there Christ is present. Had
the devil known this mystery he would never have crucified Jesus. Through
Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension, power hitherto unknown in history
was made available. The devil was totally unaware of God's plan, as told
in I Corinthians,"
As I understand this, he's saying the big problem for Satan according to PFAL teaching was not about spirit within vs upon, it was a whole mess of believers all operating power all over the place and pinning old satan's ears to the wall! Yeah!!!
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Raf
Another part of the explanation could be that Satan did know about the concept of a new birth as far back as Genesis, but did not know that he would make it possible by crucifying Jesus. That seems more in line with what the verse is saying anyway.
Anyway, interesting discussion.
I still don't believe in an unforgivable sin after Jesus paid the price for all sin.
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dmiller
Somebody -- good *detective* work. :)
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Mike
Thanks guys, for the settings help.
I CAN SEE SIGNATURES NOW!
Wow! I’ve been missing a LOT!
Everything looks so DIFFERENT now!
I can hardly believe I went this long.... Huh?
Wha...?
What THE...?
What’s this overwhelming feeling I’m experiencing...?
Why... I could swear that PFAL is NOT God-breathed after all!!!!!
It’s so OBVIOUS that AC and AE stand for ACTUAL contradictions...
... and ACTUAL Errors.....
What was I drinking this evening.......?
It TASTES normal... LOOKS normal....
Did I drop acid tonight and then forget?
OH!
Oh NO!
You guys TRICKED ME!
Those settings changed MUCH MORE than mere signature viewing!
I’ve been RE-PROGRAMMED to GreaseSpot Belief Settings!
How diabolical, ya know.
I must say, THAT was certainly clever.
I’ve got to find those instructions FAST!
Quick.... Where WERE they?
My Options - Control Board (some corner) - Managed Settings?
I CAN'T REMEMBER!
Who was the scoundrel who DUPED me into this...
I’m as doomed as doomed can be!
Why DID I think PFAL was God-breathed, anyway?
What would Pat Sajak do?
Be calm.. Read the board... re-trace my steps
YES! There it is...
If I can only get there in time.
Dave, I can feel my mind going!
Daisy, Daisy, g i v e m e y o u r a n s w e r t o o . . .
...
.
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dmiller
Glad yer *on board*. :)
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