You wrote: “IF PFAL is God-breathed AND PFAL gives an explanation of the characteristics of God-breathed works THEN PFAL will exhibit those qualities.”
Don’t you see that the same applies to the ancient scriptures (KJV’s canon)?
IF the ancient scriptures are God-breathed ... THEN they will exhibit those same qualities of God-breathedness. I presume you have detected those qualities in them.
Many worldly scholars, however fail to detect those qualities in the same ancient scriptures, because the METHOD they use to examine them is flawed. They are not meek. When they encounter a flaw they fail to seek until they find it’s resolution.
If you want to detect these qualities in PFAL you will have to adopt the method prescribed within PFAL, not the method you use to sleuth out a news story as a journalist. PFAL claims to be God-breathed, just like the ancient scriptures, and both require patience and trust as apparent flaws are examined.
With the ancient scriptures, one huge problem facing meek researchers is the fact that we don’t HAVE them, only copies with some level of mis-copying, and translations with a higher level of man’s interference.
With PFAL the above problem of miscopying and translation is minimal, but there is a problem of memory.
Too many grad researchers of PFAL rely on their flawed memory of what is in there. Too many THINK they have a command on what is said in PFAL in memory, but it’s either not accurate (TVT problems) or it’s not complete. There are vast areas of PFAL that many grads have NEVER explored, such as the minute differences between a book chapter and it’s corresponding magazine article. Many grads have never even seen some magazine articles that are independent of the material covered in the books.
I’m sure, Raf, that if you were discussing the integrity of the ancient scriptures with someone who insists on only using the KJV for their research to “prove” there is no integrity to said scriptures, you’d rapidly distance yourself from their findings, and label this person as an unfit researcher.
Likewise, when I see someone already committed to attacking the integrity of PFAL who hasn’t come even close to cracking all the books and all magazine articles, getting the whole story on the table for close examination, let alone adopting the requires trust and patience to slog through the apparent errors, then I too ignore their research end product as hopelessly off the mark, and the researcher, because of his chosen methods, totally unfit for me to invest any time following their thesis.
I missed that last paragraph, Mark. Thanks for re-posting.
Mike, you're the only unfit researcher here, unwilling to accept the simplicity of what's written, looking for hidden meanings and dodging, distracting and denying whenever your thesis is disproved. Even WIERWILLE did not accept what you say about PFAL!
What's really sad about your constant stream of lies is that you're lying only to yourself.
Mike, you're the only unfit researcher here, unwilling to accept the simplicity of what's written, looking for hidden meanings and dodging, distracting and denying whenever your thesis is disproved.
Who made you a judge? The Word of God says we are to to examine ourselves - not examine someone else if we are in "the faith" or not. Prove your own selves - that is the Word of God.
2 Corinthians 13:5
James 4:11-12
11. Speak not evil one of another, brethern. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law: [i.e. - the Word of God] and judgeth the law: but if you judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and destroy; who art thou that judgest another?
Or do you deny the simplicity of what is written there in James 4? It appears to me the people who complain the most about PFAL are those turn PFAL into a spectator sport - i.e. a thesis. Essentially that is all PFAL is for most people - just another thesis. (The saying goes, it's no better or worse than anybody else's thesis - theology, etc.) Although I may not agree with all of Mike's conclusion's, I'm not totally against Mike's approach to PFAL. HIS APPROACH MAY WORK FOR HIM, BUT HIS APPROACH TO PFAL MIGHT NOT WORK FOR ME OR FOR ANYBODY ELSE. If Mike has proven anything so far - it is this:
To master PFAL one must adapt a larger and wider viewpoint of PFAL; rather than the narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi. ehh... PFAL critics.
Mike has called me an unfit researcher 575,600 times, and you get on my case for using it ONCE?
Hypocrite.
How many times have you told Mike to stop judging because he called someone "unfit researcher"? Did you tell Mike not to judge me when he said I was "not credible" a few posts back? How about "plagiarism crybabies"? Ever tell him to stop judging for his incessant namecalling? How about his psychoanalysis of my approach to PFAL? Not only do you fail to tell him to stop judging, you JOIN him in said judgment.
It seems to me you reserve the right to judge those with whom you disagree, but you pull out the "don't judge" scriptures when it suits your need.
Assessing and judging aren't the same things.
Calling Mike an idolatrous sycophant misogynist is judging, and I sin every time I do it. God forgive me.
Saying he insists on inserting complexity into the simple is not judging; it's reading comprehension, and...
Oh, now I've identified the problem. Forget I said anything.
In PFAL Dr himself sates that he got rid of all his books and only studied the Word. This cannot be true because the contents of the class are taken from the books of others. While he might have used these books to study the Word - the quote in the class implies strongly that he - DR - threw out all his books and he - DR - studied only the Word - this emds up also implying that the contents of the class are the results of the studying that he - DR - did suring this time that he threw out all those books.
Also - here's a consideration. Paul wrote seven epistles. The apostles wrote a few books each. Not even every spoken word of Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour are written down. In fact, John states that would be impossible ( and presumably God didn't feel necessary.) So isn't it the utmost improbablility that EVERY written and spoken ( on tape) of VPW's would have been spoken ex cathedera?
If in fact Dr was the great man of God that you claim, it would stand to reason that he would have not endorsed the things he endorsed. Paul vehemently spike against sexual misconduct among other things. Dr not only endorsed this but he participated. As a true man of God he would not have been so haphazard with the lives of God's people.
He chose lcm - hand picked him and groomed him. Even taught him to have his little sexual encounters. now after all this you're tellin' me that he had one last revelation - to master PFAL???!!! Eli had to rely on a young Samuel for revelation because of his sin - I think that Dr had done enough by the end of his life to ensure that God would not have used him in this way - God's too smart for that. He(God) wouldn't use the life of one who had used so many and lost so much trust to say after he (DR) was gone to that the ones he (DR) had abused should go back to his (Dr's) written words and treated as scripture. Even the apostle Paul had to earn trust over the space of 14 years. Dr's dead and cannot win trust.
There is just not much left to be said on this subject. I have worked PFAL and I have worked scripture. Heck there are those who work Shakespare and Faulkner. They find amazing integrity in the works of these Not-godly men. It's easy to maintain personal consistensy in writing - the miracle of Scripture is that there are 66 books and almost as many writers and there is an internal consistency that cannot be denied. That is NOT easy - its God!
I must agree to disagree with you here. But I'm not sure I have much more to add.
Clay, I think you really nailed it here...capturing the real issue with that verse.
This is the big thing I have against pulling verses out of context, like how we were exhorted to do through PFAL and those retemories.
I Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Like you say, that verse is used to exhort people to study hard...
How do you stand approved before God, dont cha know?
Remember how Wierwille used to tell the Greek definitions...well, he only did so when it was convenient...and this wasn't one of those cases (for him)
Study - spoudazo - Strong's 4704 - it means "to hasten, to exert ones self..."
Other places used include Eph 4:3 (Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace), 1 Th 2:17 (endeavor), Titus 3:12 (be diligent), etc.
Doesn't have anything to do with cracking the books...
If people took a look at it in the context, they'd be able to see that so clearly:
The context starts in verse 1, where Paul exhorts him to be strong in the faith...and then talks about characteristics that he needs to display and teach and exhort to his flock (after all, Timothy was the Bishop of Ephesus)
The context keeps going through this verse and talks then about what to avoid...
The verse 1 Tim 2:15 is a beautiful verse, but we were all taught to pull it out of context and use it in a way that it wasn't presented and we nullified the tremendous truth and learning that we could get from that, in the way that it was intended by the apostle who wrote the letter.
I appreciate you bringing that verse out, though, Clay. I think the way you put it was beautiful. When you said:
it ain't easy!
to kill that carnal old man...
always have to be diligent
yes diligent-study
If you look at the remainder of that section, that's what Paul is exhorting Timothy to do...to be patient, longsuffering, enduring all for the sake of Christ. And to be diligent in straightly that which was revealed...
(truth is the greek word "aletheia" from "a" (negation) and "lanthano" (to be hidden)...therefore, that which is revealed)
(an interesting jewel from this section is Paul analogizing Timothy's role in this regard as a soldier, an athelete, a farmer, and a worker...something useful for consideration, btw)
What I always found odd about that is that VPW definitely understood that meaning of "study," because he goes into intricate detail about it in the Blue Book. In PFAL he deliberately uses a mistranslated word to make a valid point (study!), even though in the Blue Book he goes into perfect detail about why that word does not mean "study."
What I always found odd about that is that VPW definitely understood that meaning of "study," because he goes into intricate detail about it in the Blue Book. In PFAL he deliberately uses a mistranslated word to make a valid point (study!), even though in the Blue Book he goes into perfect detail about why that word does not mean "study."
Such is life.
Been a long, long time since I read the Blue Book (shudders)
Did he discuss the full context (from 2 Tim 1:15 through 2:27)? I ask, because I think it adds so much...
I believe that the only thing that was offered in the Way bookstore was Bullinger, and he claimed that he came to his conclusions independent of Bullinger.
Actually -- I did get a copy of Jesus the Healer by Kenyon at an ROA (or some such other event).
Offhand -- that is the only one I can think of that was for sale, besides the Bullinger stuff.
What other books were offered for sale, Mike?
I surely don't remember any by Stiles offered for sale.
Dictionary dot com lists the word "ortho" with several definitions. And a pronunciation key. It's pronounced - or-tho. Go figure. Here's what it says -
ortho- or orth- (is that Garth's cousin - Orth?)
pref.
1. Straight; upright; vertical: orthotropous.
2. Perpendicular: orthorhombic.
3. Correct; correction: orthopsychiatry.
4. The most fully hydrated form of an acid or of its salts: orthoboric acid.
5. Diatomic molecules in which the nuclei have the same spin direction: orthohydrogen.
and my personal favorite:
6. Of or relating to one of three possible isomers of a benzene ring with two attached chemical groups in which the carbon atoms with attached groups are adjacent: ortho-dibromobenzene.
Isomers and benzene rings - oh yeah. That's the stuff.
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markomalley
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ex10
marko
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Raf
I missed that last paragraph, Mark. Thanks for re-posting.
Mike, you're the only unfit researcher here, unwilling to accept the simplicity of what's written, looking for hidden meanings and dodging, distracting and denying whenever your thesis is disproved. Even WIERWILLE did not accept what you say about PFAL!
What's really sad about your constant stream of lies is that you're lying only to yourself.
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What The Hey
Who made you a judge? The Word of God says we are to to examine ourselves - not examine someone else if we are in "the faith" or not. Prove your own selves - that is the Word of God.
2 Corinthians 13:5
James 4:11-12
11. Speak not evil one of another, brethern. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law: [i.e. - the Word of God] and judgeth the law: but if you judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and destroy; who art thou that judgest another?
Or do you deny the simplicity of what is written there in James 4? It appears to me the people who complain the most about PFAL are those turn PFAL into a spectator sport - i.e. a thesis. Essentially that is all PFAL is for most people - just another thesis. (The saying goes, it's no better or worse than anybody else's thesis - theology, etc.) Although I may not agree with all of Mike's conclusion's, I'm not totally against Mike's approach to PFAL. HIS APPROACH MAY WORK FOR HIM, BUT HIS APPROACH TO PFAL MIGHT NOT WORK FOR ME OR FOR ANYBODY ELSE. If Mike has proven anything so far - it is this:
To master PFAL one must adapt a larger and wider viewpoint of PFAL; rather than the narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi. ehh... PFAL critics.
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Raf
What the Hey:
Wait just a cotton picking minute:
Mike has called me an unfit researcher 575,600 times, and you get on my case for using it ONCE?
Hypocrite.
How many times have you told Mike to stop judging because he called someone "unfit researcher"? Did you tell Mike not to judge me when he said I was "not credible" a few posts back? How about "plagiarism crybabies"? Ever tell him to stop judging for his incessant namecalling? How about his psychoanalysis of my approach to PFAL? Not only do you fail to tell him to stop judging, you JOIN him in said judgment.
It seems to me you reserve the right to judge those with whom you disagree, but you pull out the "don't judge" scriptures when it suits your need.
Assessing and judging aren't the same things.
Calling Mike an idolatrous sycophant misogynist is judging, and I sin every time I do it. God forgive me.
Saying he insists on inserting complexity into the simple is not judging; it's reading comprehension, and...
Oh, now I've identified the problem. Forget I said anything.
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Raf
By the way, as to my statement, quoted by WTH:
What's good for the goose...An observation based on evidence, not a judgment.
Granted, I left out "ubiquitously," but nonetheless, the point remains valid.Hey, "dodge, distract and deny" were HIS words, and he's PROUD of them.
He might take issue with my use of "disproved," but I'm not here to make his argument for him.
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doojable
Mike,
In PFAL Dr himself sates that he got rid of all his books and only studied the Word. This cannot be true because the contents of the class are taken from the books of others. While he might have used these books to study the Word - the quote in the class implies strongly that he - DR - threw out all his books and he - DR - studied only the Word - this emds up also implying that the contents of the class are the results of the studying that he - DR - did suring this time that he threw out all those books.
Also - here's a consideration. Paul wrote seven epistles. The apostles wrote a few books each. Not even every spoken word of Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour are written down. In fact, John states that would be impossible ( and presumably God didn't feel necessary.) So isn't it the utmost improbablility that EVERY written and spoken ( on tape) of VPW's would have been spoken ex cathedera?
If in fact Dr was the great man of God that you claim, it would stand to reason that he would have not endorsed the things he endorsed. Paul vehemently spike against sexual misconduct among other things. Dr not only endorsed this but he participated. As a true man of God he would not have been so haphazard with the lives of God's people.
He chose lcm - hand picked him and groomed him. Even taught him to have his little sexual encounters. now after all this you're tellin' me that he had one last revelation - to master PFAL???!!! Eli had to rely on a young Samuel for revelation because of his sin - I think that Dr had done enough by the end of his life to ensure that God would not have used him in this way - God's too smart for that. He(God) wouldn't use the life of one who had used so many and lost so much trust to say after he (DR) was gone to that the ones he (DR) had abused should go back to his (Dr's) written words and treated as scripture. Even the apostle Paul had to earn trust over the space of 14 years. Dr's dead and cannot win trust.
There is just not much left to be said on this subject. I have worked PFAL and I have worked scripture. Heck there are those who work Shakespare and Faulkner. They find amazing integrity in the works of these Not-godly men. It's easy to maintain personal consistensy in writing - the miracle of Scripture is that there are 66 books and almost as many writers and there is an internal consistency that cannot be denied. That is NOT easy - its God!
I must agree to disagree with you here. But I'm not sure I have much more to add.
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Oakspear
Raf and Doojable abley answered the question posed to me about the 3000 books
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ex10
Wait, stop, hold the phone.
Am I missing something here? Raf, I don't see you as wanting to condemn Mike to death or anything.
It's just a (sometimes heated, yeah) discussion on a forum board, no? :unsure:
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CM
i don't see a researcher called by God anywhere in the bible!
no ministry of research to be found!
look yes...
seek yes
ask yes
and more
but no researcher...hmmmmm
search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life
(meaning the scriptures won't give you eternal life)
they are they which testify of the LORD JESUS CHRIST
that's who gives eternal life!
and he is quite alive and well
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CM
study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needs not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth
yeah...what's the word of truth?
something that is written on paper?
nah, it's the word of truth in the heart
your're own heart and the hearts of others if you have the love
then we are not ashamed cuz it's real love from the heart
truth from the heart
remember he's talking to Timothy here
a person who already received the gift of holy spirit
needs not to be ashamed-yeah
cuz you are as honest as can be
and love is the motivation
not anything for yourself
left the self, the carnal man behind
not selfish acts that promote yourself or others
but that which promotes the word of truth
in your mind and others
it ain't easy!
to kill that carnal old man...
always have to be diligent
yes diligent-study
in a collateral somewhere-Ha!
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markomalley
Clay, I think you really nailed it here...capturing the real issue with that verse.
This is the big thing I have against pulling verses out of context, like how we were exhorted to do through PFAL and those retemories.
I Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Like you say, that verse is used to exhort people to study hard...
How do you stand approved before God, dont cha know?
Remember how Wierwille used to tell the Greek definitions...well, he only did so when it was convenient...and this wasn't one of those cases (for him)
Study - spoudazo - Strong's 4704 - it means "to hasten, to exert ones self..."
Other places used include Eph 4:3 (Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace), 1 Th 2:17 (endeavor), Titus 3:12 (be diligent), etc.
Doesn't have anything to do with cracking the books...
If people took a look at it in the context, they'd be able to see that so clearly:
The context starts in verse 1, where Paul exhorts him to be strong in the faith...and then talks about characteristics that he needs to display and teach and exhort to his flock (after all, Timothy was the Bishop of Ephesus)
The context keeps going through this verse and talks then about what to avoid...
The verse 1 Tim 2:15 is a beautiful verse, but we were all taught to pull it out of context and use it in a way that it wasn't presented and we nullified the tremendous truth and learning that we could get from that, in the way that it was intended by the apostle who wrote the letter.
I appreciate you bringing that verse out, though, Clay. I think the way you put it was beautiful. When you said:
it ain't easy!
to kill that carnal old man...
always have to be diligent
yes diligent-study
If you look at the remainder of that section, that's what Paul is exhorting Timothy to do...to be patient, longsuffering, enduring all for the sake of Christ. And to be diligent in straightly that which was revealed...
(truth is the greek word "aletheia" from "a" (negation) and "lanthano" (to be hidden)...therefore, that which is revealed)
(an interesting jewel from this section is Paul analogizing Timothy's role in this regard as a soldier, an athelete, a farmer, and a worker...something useful for consideration, btw)
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Raf
What I always found odd about that is that VPW definitely understood that meaning of "study," because he goes into intricate detail about it in the Blue Book. In PFAL he deliberately uses a mistranslated word to make a valid point (study!), even though in the Blue Book he goes into perfect detail about why that word does not mean "study."
Such is life.
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markomalley
Been a long, long time since I read the Blue Book (shudders)
Did he discuss the full context (from 2 Tim 1:15 through 2:27)? I ask, because I think it adds so much...
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Raf
I don't know. I haven't mastered it. :)
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markomalley
cutting straight takes a lot of work
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markomalley
Oh, by the way, for you orthotomeo fans. You know the only place it's used in the Greek NT is in 2 Tim 2:15.
In the Septuagint, it is also used just once: Proverbs 3:6, In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
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dmiller
Actually -- I did get a copy of Jesus the Healer by Kenyon at an ROA (or some such other event).
Offhand -- that is the only one I can think of that was for sale, besides the Bullinger stuff.
What other books were offered for sale, Mike?
I surely don't remember any by Stiles offered for sale.
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WhiteDove
They used to sell some of Charles Welch's books.
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dmiller
Did you mean 2 Tim 2:15 through 2:26??
To answer your question, no he does not. Pulled out my blue book, and 2 Tim 2:15 is the only verse he mentions in that chapter from 2 Tim
(with the exception of 2 Tim 4:9,21).
Interesting that you mention that series of verses as *full context*, Mark.
I never thought of it that way before!
Thanks. :)
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Raf
But, the word was orthotomounta. PFAL says so! :blink:
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doojable
But Raf - God told him to say it that way ;)
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Oakspear
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socks
Dictionary dot com lists the word "ortho" with several definitions. And a pronunciation key. It's pronounced - or-tho. Go figure. Here's what it says -
ortho- or orth- (is that Garth's cousin - Orth?)
pref.
1. Straight; upright; vertical: orthotropous.
2. Perpendicular: orthorhombic.
3. Correct; correction: orthopsychiatry.
4. The most fully hydrated form of an acid or of its salts: orthoboric acid.
5. Diatomic molecules in which the nuclei have the same spin direction: orthohydrogen.
and my personal favorite:
6. Of or relating to one of three possible isomers of a benzene ring with two attached chemical groups in which the carbon atoms with attached groups are adjacent: ortho-dibromobenzene.
Isomers and benzene rings - oh yeah. That's the stuff.
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